fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Those stats don't say much. There was a post on here earlier that showed the win percentages based on how long the game lasted which is a lot more informative. Basically the aliens win more the first ten minutes, which is due to quick baserush wins. Once the game gets past that stage, the marines had around 66% wins if I remember correctly.
I've played 20-ish marine rounds so far this version and the only one I've lost was due to a baserush within the first thirty seconds.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited January 2012
One of the most played servers (HBZ1) has a balance mod making aliens stronger, so I would take these stats with a grain of salt. The turtle_b2 stats are actually a bit more accurate, because it is only played in gathers on (mostly) unmodified servers. All players in the gathers know the game and so there are no "oh, we have no comm"-wins making the stats useless. The only problem is that turtle seems to favor aliens somewhat. EDIT @ Fana: Most of the early wins are probably due to bad aim and/or noone on pubs being able to or wanting to do marine comm. No useful stats either way.
I'd really like to have per-server stats so we could more accurately assess the current situation over all gathers played, especially when the map downloading is in and more different maps are played, even on pubs. That would make the stats a lot more useful. One could also make some kind of website tool where a few regular gather players get admin rights to post the winning side after a game or even a way to upload full player stats exported from an ingame mod.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
I do know where all the early wins come from, random spawns. Whenever teams spawn "close" to each other; team deathmatch for a min or two, and then spawncamp. Very common scenario these days.
If you look at build 190 and build 191, across all maps, currently win/loss is 54/46 to marines. ns2_summit is a 56% marine bias, Tram a 51% alien bias, rockdown a 55% alien bias.
I'd say the problem is you only play summit which from the stats available is a marine biased map.
Play some of the other maps and see if the game is more balanced or not...
Edit --------
In 191 alone, summit has a 58% marine win, tram has a 56% alien win. Tram is played much less than summit, so the combination of averages is makes it 56% marine win overall. I would say that over the limited selection of two maps, if tram keeps up this level on consistency, and the maps were played equally, then the game is pretty much even, taking into account map discrepancies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you remove all the "false positives"(short games) i would think you should see something very different.
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
twice in one game as alien commander I ran into a bug where I would build a drifter, and the hive would build like 100 drifters all inside the hive, which crashed performance for anyone in the hive.
Other than that, it was fun until all the aliens quit and it was 4 vs me.
something odd, sometimes mines show up on the alien flashlight as orange, sometimes they dont.
<!--quoteo(post=1894573:date=Jan 15 2012, 04:53 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jan 15 2012, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OKAY, you anti social aliens
HOW do I place a res node?
Want me to be gorge? no probs, but TALK to me you kahara ######***, how do I place a res node?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hive commender must place 'HARVESTER' from/with drifter.
Let it be known that pustules also detonate mines..
<!--quoteo(post=1894540:date=Jan 14 2012, 08:37 PM:name=6john)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (6john @ Jan 14 2012, 08:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->twice in one game as alien commander I ran into a bug where I would build a drifter, and the hive would build like 100 drifters all inside the hive, which crashed performance for anyone in the hive.
Other than that, it was fun until all the aliens quit and it was 4 vs me.
something odd, sometimes mines show up on the alien flashlight as orange, sometimes they dont.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Greetings John,
Rest assured, as this bug is already under development. Thanks for posting bugs, we find them very helpful!
<!--quoteo(post=1894212:date=Jan 13 2012, 08:47 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jan 13 2012, 08:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leap does not make for good gameplay. The fun(-nest) gameplay in NS1 was always the early game lmg marine vs. no-leap skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> sure, but this isn't ns1...they marines got now big weapons like flamethrower. So aliens need better stuff. Its a beta and alltime changes, but its just weird to see (as marine) aliens loosing like every match. I like both sides but aliens are more creative but with the better aiming marines are way better now.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->inflict damage to marines as well (maybe even marine buildings)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would like to try that, I love mines in sc1 and everything you can do with them. We could see some skulk bombs falling from the ceiling ;)
Mines are great! It's good t see them finally coming into use. BUT, researched at ARMORY and dropped from PLAYER?!?! For MACS Sake, give the robot more responsibilitys..
lerk needs old gas attack, lerk is supposed to be a support class, but is terrible at it. either return the old gas attack or buff their health because lerk is just pathetic and not worth using 30 (plus the cost of upgrades, another dumb idea) on.
gorge spit sprite is too small
marine movement needs to be tweeked a bit as it still feels like im stuck to the ground a lot.
you can kill a fade solo in literally 2 hits, happy now?
there's no incentive to play any class other than onos, and by the time you can afford an onos there are jetpackers.
skulk leap is still useless as hell. its not even a leap its a hop.
I don't understand the logic behind making the game beep every time a new message / chat is displayed, it is annoying and <b>kills</b> the immersion. A sound is a sound no matter how subtle or quite it is made. Please remove message sound effects, or just announce that this game is being designed for people who are developmentally challenged. (Last sentence is <b><u>not</u></b> solely based on message sounds)
I take it back! I have seen the light! Its still NS, but like the 10,000 days album from Tool, one must recognise the greater picture to truly appreciate it.
Last night on the 14 person Aus server we had 2x40min+ games (on summit) with wins as Aliens, was great fun and felt just as immersive and team spirit based as games of old. Brilliant fun.
I even woke at 5.30am and lay awake thinking of things to comlpain about, wicked! er....
1. The Lerk definatly needs some love, personally I like the gas stream idea, spikes are 'Lerky' enough, can't hide in vents all ones life, but the implementation is a bit physically daunting/cumbersome... I have to push Forward, Jump/Fly, move the mouselook *and* hold down gas. Maybe if the effect initially drained a bit more adrenaline but lasted about 3 - 4 seconds, would make hammering through a 'rine base farting on them much easier and natural to controll.
2. Alien Commander - Now obviously this can't go but - alot of the 'balance' in NS1 was brought about by having 1 more active tactical unit on aliens than 'rines. - Now both teams have the same amount of tactical players, so the chances of getting one skulk in front, who gets plastered by the rifles, allowing the sneaky skulk to hit the 'rines from behind is greatly reduced. That 1 last unit of reinforcement makes all the difference in balancing the melee vs ranged imbalance. Just ask Napoleon.
3. I'm still miffed I can't evolve in vents, on ledges, rock formations etc, this inability reduces the suprised/ambush feel of aliens somewhat, and makes Gorging much less interesting - the poor fatty is suffering enough as it is (No RES placement? sigh, change is difficult to deal with). Isn't the physics model good enough (I like shooting dropped 'rine weapons back into the hive with gorge spit so the next 'rine can't pick it up, great fun!) to allow the egg to slide off if the attempted evolve is simply to radical? but being told 'not enough room to gestate' when my fat skulk arse is quite happy there as it is, is simply fustrating in the extreme.
4. Secondary fire modes. This runs the risk of being like Unreal Tournament 2004, everything has an alternative, only 2 or 3 are of any use. Plus, along with the 'alternate' movement options like Blink, Fly, Leap etc *really* confuse the issue of what is a secondary weapon mode and what isn't. Feels like it needs streamlining. I think its been mentioned, but weapon change delays don't feel natural when the weapon is natural or innate. A 'rine holstering a pistol and un strapping a rifle makes sense, a skulk blowing its nose and filing its teeth after sneezing a parasite doesn't.
5. Spawn location - very confusing, could it be better to choose the hive with say RMB and then the egg with spacebar? I could make the swear filter blush crimson with how fustrating it is to be successfully putting pressure on the marine spawn with skulk suicide attacks, them *blam* spawn from the other side of the map at your new hive. Then mashing every button trying to work out just what egg/hive one will spawn at. Could be somewhat more intuitive, more choice is good for playability sometimes!
PS: Do people shoot a few lerk spikes then hit the shotgun spike effect? Or just go rambo with the automatic spikes? maybe this brings up another point: the tool tips, whilst good to see implemented, don't actually detail the real use of the ability. 'shoots a spike at enemies' isn't quite as informative as 'ranged alien weapon, damage and accurace decrease with distance, minor adrenaline cost'
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
double plus good points, except i think there needs to be some clarification on the secondary fire modes one.
Secondary attack for aliens should be something that is always applicable for that class.
In general I think movement needs to be the secondary fire mode. for skulk this is leap, for fade this is blink, for onos this would probably be charge. This is correct so far.
For gorge, healspray is perfect since it's the gorge's main utility.
The question comes with lerk. Right now, primary is lerk and secondary is shotgun, though it's considered a support class. Gas is the only support attack it has, it should be secondary always.
Actually, maybe I was wrong. What are the chances out of 26 that anymore than 1 person wants to 'comm'?
32 - 30, okay, youd get 2. 28? Maybe not jack.
How hard would it be to split the 'Alien Comm' functions back into gorge? Hard? Impossible given hopeful release date? Developer MOD that has a seperate steam/desktop icon switching between the two ideas?
Oh, and how do I bile bomb? is it JUMP/SPIT/HEAL/BELLYSLIDE/PLACECYST/PLACEOC/PLACE RES CHAMBE...r...wait...can't do that..../arggghhh, to many buttons....STREAMLINE.....!
Just to note...I have a 3 button mouse, and *at least* an 104 button Key Board, why am I rolling the mouse wheel in a FPS style game?
Duno if its just me but I don't have a counter to shotguns anymore
nevermind 'in your face' type 1shotting, you can get 1shotted from about 3 meters away
skulk? 1 shotted skulk ambushing? bite 1/2/3 times then 1 shotted lerk? 1 shotted lerk from range? pistol Fade? 2 shotted gorge? i was 2 shotted from about the 5 meter distance mark while trying to heal a skulk... thena gain healing a skulk against a shotty is totally useless since they get 1shotted anyway.
Heh, great feedback OnosFactory. I agree with a lot of it.
- Hadn't thought about simplifying Lerk but maybe there's a way - Aliens may need to be stronger in general due to being "down" one player for Comm, not sure yet - The not being able to evolve is certainly a bug. - True. Maybe we should just dump alt-fire (esp. for aliens) at this point to make it simpler. I think there is some extra delay in weapon switching by accident at the moment (esp. with parasite). But yes I agree, it should feel faster for aliens. - Agreed, it's confusing and painful when you get it wrong. Maybe we'll allow you to click on the minimap. Or your solution might be better. I'll try it real quick.
<!--quoteo(post=1895024:date=Jan 17 2012, 12:37 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jan 17 2012, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895024"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. I'm still miffed I can't evolve in vents, on ledges, rock formations etc,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hold control and evolve as normal :). The requirement for evolving is that you be on ground. In vents and on rock ledges etc the wall walking code will not have you on the ground, but stuck to a wall or ceiling. Control temporarily disables wall sticking when pressed.
I think each life form should have a single alt fire across all weapons and that's it. Leap for Skulk, Heal for Gorge, Spores for Lerk, Blink for Fade, Charge for Onos. Maybe flight for Lerk and slide for Gorge if you want to maintain a movement theme. There just isn't any real need for alien weapons to have secondary fire modes.
<!--quoteo(post=1894911:date=Jan 16 2012, 09:13 AM:name=SteelBlade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SteelBlade @ Jan 16 2012, 09:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really need to fix the crash on cyst placement.
Also Fades are retarded now. I killed 2 by myself with one lmg mag and a few pistol rounds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ this. The Pustule bug on Alien commander is crashing out 80% of the time.
I also had a "insta hive" happen last night. The drifter dropped in and hive appeared and it was "Hive is complete"
Love the mines but this needs to be placed into the commanders hands. Dont make them mac deployed, make them droppable like med packs but they cost $, so they are not spammed. Also a per map limit of mines would help the spamming going on.
Give the gorge back the old mine cloud they had in NS1 that took out all marines armor and give babblers to the gorge. make him fun to play again!!
Loved Build 190 and onwards - I've actually now started putting some time into learning the maps and new gameplay elements (compared to NS1).
I would agree with OnosFactory on his comment regarding the secondary fire of the aliens. Would it make sense to have a permanent lifeform secondary fire which isn't tied to primary weapon? These could for example be parasite/leap for Skulks, spores for Lerk & blink for the Fade if unlocked. This way you only have to worry about your primary in terms of which is selected. I am not sure about other NS1 players but my most used, non-movement, key for aliens was probably Q for fast-switching weapons - whether it be blink/swipe or leap/bite so having a primary/secondary does make sense to me.
Edit: Have now just read Zek's post which is along a similar theme to mine.
Edit2: How about a spacing limit for mines so that they can't be put too close together? With a sufficiently large mine-exclusion zone around current mines they would have to be more strategically placed.
Comments
I've played 20-ish marine rounds so far this version and the only one I've lost was due to a baserush within the first thirty seconds.
The turtle_b2 stats are actually a bit more accurate, because it is only played in gathers on (mostly) unmodified servers. All players in the gathers know the game and so there are no "oh, we have no comm"-wins making the stats useless. The only problem is that turtle seems to favor aliens somewhat.
EDIT @ Fana: Most of the early wins are probably due to bad aim and/or noone on pubs being able to or wanting to do marine comm. No useful stats either way.
I'd really like to have per-server stats so we could more accurately assess the current situation over all gathers played, especially when the map downloading is in and more different maps are played, even on pubs. That would make the stats a lot more useful. One could also make some kind of website tool where a few regular gather players get admin rights to post the winning side after a game or even a way to upload full player stats exported from an ingame mod.
Whenever teams spawn "close" to each other; team deathmatch for a min or two, and then spawncamp.
Very common scenario these days.
If you look at build 190 and build 191, across all maps, currently win/loss is 54/46 to marines. ns2_summit is a 56% marine bias, Tram a 51% alien bias, rockdown a 55% alien bias.
I'd say the problem is you only play summit which from the stats available is a marine biased map.
Play some of the other maps and see if the game is more balanced or not...
Edit --------
In 191 alone, summit has a 58% marine win, tram has a 56% alien win. Tram is played much less than summit, so the combination of averages is makes it 56% marine win overall. I would say that over the limited selection of two maps, if tram keeps up this level on consistency, and the maps were played equally, then the game is pretty much even, taking into account map discrepancies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you remove all the "false positives"(short games) i would think you should see something very different.
Other than that, it was fun until all the aliens quit and it was 4 vs me.
something odd, sometimes mines show up on the alien flashlight as orange, sometimes they dont.
HOW do I place a res node?
Want me to be gorge? no probs, but TALK to me you kahara ######***, how do I place a res node?
HOW do I place a res node?
Want me to be gorge? no probs, but TALK to me you kahara ######***, how do I place a res node?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hive commender must place 'HARVESTER' from/with drifter.
Let it be known that pustules also detonate mines..
Other than that, it was fun until all the aliens quit and it was 4 vs me.
something odd, sometimes mines show up on the alien flashlight as orange, sometimes they dont.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Greetings John,
Rest assured, as this bug is already under development. Thanks for posting bugs, we find them very helpful!
Cheers,
-Scott.C
sure, but this isn't ns1...they marines got now big weapons like flamethrower.
So aliens need better stuff.
Its a beta and alltime changes, but its just weird to see (as marine) aliens loosing like every match.
I like both sides but aliens are more creative but with the better aiming marines are way better now.
- cost more than they do (nothing?)
- inflict damage to marines as well (maybe even marine buildings)
I would like to try that, I love mines in sc1 and everything you can do with them. We could see some skulk bombs falling from the ceiling ;)
For MACS Sake, give the robot more responsibilitys..
lerk needs old gas attack, lerk is supposed to be a support class, but is terrible at it. either return the old gas attack or buff their health because lerk is just pathetic and not worth using 30 (plus the cost of upgrades, another dumb idea) on.
gorge spit sprite is too small
marine movement needs to be tweeked a bit as it still feels like im stuck to the ground a lot.
you can kill a fade solo in literally 2 hits, happy now?
there's no incentive to play any class other than onos, and by the time you can afford an onos there are jetpackers.
skulk leap is still useless as hell. its not even a leap its a hop.
Please remove message sound effects, or just announce that this game is being designed for people who are developmentally challenged. (Last sentence is <b><u>not</u></b> solely based on message sounds)
O_O !
Also Fades are retarded now. I killed 2 by myself with one lmg mag and a few pistol rounds.
Last night on the 14 person Aus server we had 2x40min+ games (on summit) with wins as Aliens, was great fun and felt just as immersive and team spirit based as games of old. Brilliant fun.
I even woke at 5.30am and lay awake thinking of things to comlpain about, wicked! er....
1. The Lerk definatly needs some love, personally I like the gas stream idea, spikes are 'Lerky' enough, can't hide in vents all ones life, but the implementation is a bit physically daunting/cumbersome... I have to push Forward, Jump/Fly, move the mouselook *and* hold down gas. Maybe if the effect initially drained a bit more adrenaline but lasted about 3 - 4 seconds, would make hammering through a 'rine base farting on them much easier and natural to controll.
2. Alien Commander - Now obviously this can't go but - alot of the 'balance' in NS1 was brought about by having 1 more active tactical unit on aliens than 'rines. - Now both teams have the same amount of tactical players, so the chances of getting one skulk in front, who gets plastered by the rifles, allowing the sneaky skulk to hit the 'rines from behind is greatly reduced. That 1 last unit of reinforcement makes all the difference in balancing the melee vs ranged imbalance. Just ask Napoleon.
3. I'm still miffed I can't evolve in vents, on ledges, rock formations etc, this inability reduces the suprised/ambush feel of aliens somewhat, and makes Gorging much less interesting - the poor fatty is suffering enough as it is (No RES placement? sigh, change is difficult to deal with). Isn't the physics model good enough (I like shooting dropped 'rine weapons back into the hive with gorge spit so the next 'rine can't pick it up, great fun!) to allow the egg to slide off if the attempted evolve is simply to radical? but being told 'not enough room to gestate' when my fat skulk arse is quite happy there as it is, is simply fustrating in the extreme.
4. Secondary fire modes. This runs the risk of being like Unreal Tournament 2004, everything has an alternative, only 2 or 3 are of any use. Plus, along with the 'alternate' movement options like Blink, Fly, Leap etc *really* confuse the issue of what is a secondary weapon mode and what isn't. Feels like it needs streamlining. I think its been mentioned, but weapon change delays don't feel natural when the weapon is natural or innate. A 'rine holstering a pistol and un strapping a rifle makes sense, a skulk blowing its nose and filing its teeth after sneezing a parasite doesn't.
5. Spawn location - very confusing, could it be better to choose the hive with say RMB and then the egg with spacebar? I could make the swear filter blush crimson with how fustrating it is to be successfully putting pressure on the marine spawn with skulk suicide attacks, them *blam* spawn from the other side of the map at your new hive. Then mashing every button trying to work out just what egg/hive one will spawn at. Could be somewhat more intuitive, more choice is good for playability sometimes!
PS: Do people shoot a few lerk spikes then hit the shotgun spike effect? Or just go rambo with the automatic spikes? maybe this brings up another point: the tool tips, whilst good to see implemented, don't actually detail the real use of the ability. 'shoots a spike at enemies' isn't quite as informative as 'ranged alien weapon, damage and accurace decrease with distance, minor adrenaline cost'
Have Fun!
Secondary attack for aliens should be something that is always applicable for that class.
In general I think movement needs to be the secondary fire mode. for skulk this is leap, for fade this is blink, for onos this would probably be charge. This is correct so far.
For gorge, healspray is perfect since it's the gorge's main utility.
The question comes with lerk. Right now, primary is lerk and secondary is shotgun, though it's considered a support class. Gas is the only support attack it has, it should be secondary always.
32 - 30, okay, youd get 2. 28? Maybe not jack.
How hard would it be to split the 'Alien Comm' functions back into gorge? Hard? Impossible given hopeful release date? Developer MOD that has a seperate steam/desktop icon switching between the two ideas?
Just askin....
Just to note...I have a 3 button mouse, and *at least* an 104 button Key Board, why am I rolling the mouse wheel in a FPS style game?
nevermind 'in your face' type 1shotting, you can get 1shotted from about 3 meters away
skulk? 1 shotted
skulk ambushing? bite 1/2/3 times then 1 shotted
lerk? 1 shotted
lerk from range? pistol
Fade? 2 shotted
gorge? i was 2 shotted from about the 5 meter distance mark while trying to heal a skulk... thena gain healing a skulk against a shotty is totally useless since they get 1shotted anyway.
Anyone got any suggestions for me?
- Hadn't thought about simplifying Lerk but maybe there's a way
- Aliens may need to be stronger in general due to being "down" one player for Comm, not sure yet
- The not being able to evolve is certainly a bug.
- True. Maybe we should just dump alt-fire (esp. for aliens) at this point to make it simpler. I think there is some extra delay in weapon switching by accident at the moment (esp. with parasite). But yes I agree, it should feel faster for aliens.
- Agreed, it's confusing and painful when you get it wrong. Maybe we'll allow you to click on the minimap. Or your solution might be better. I'll try it real quick.
Hold control and evolve as normal :). The requirement for evolving is that you be on ground. In vents and on rock ledges etc the wall walking code will not have you on the ground, but stuck to a wall or ceiling. Control temporarily disables wall sticking when pressed.
Also Fades are retarded now. I killed 2 by myself with one lmg mag and a few pistol rounds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ this. The Pustule bug on Alien commander is crashing out 80% of the time.
I also had a "insta hive" happen last night. The drifter dropped in and hive appeared and it was "Hive is complete"
Love the mines but this needs to be placed into the commanders hands. Dont make them mac deployed, make them droppable like med packs but they cost $, so they are not spammed. Also a per map limit of mines would help the spamming going on.
Give the gorge back the old mine cloud they had in NS1 that took out all marines armor and give babblers to the gorge. make him fun to play again!!
Playa_2B
I would agree with OnosFactory on his comment regarding the secondary fire of the aliens. Would it make sense to have a permanent lifeform secondary fire which isn't tied to primary weapon? These could for example be parasite/leap for Skulks, spores for Lerk & blink for the Fade if unlocked. This way you only have to worry about your primary in terms of which is selected. I am not sure about other NS1 players but my most used, non-movement, key for aliens was probably Q for fast-switching weapons - whether it be blink/swipe or leap/bite so having a primary/secondary does make sense to me.
Edit: Have now just read Zek's post which is along a similar theme to mine.
Edit2: How about a spacing limit for mines so that they can't be put too close together? With a sufficiently large mine-exclusion zone around current mines they would have to be more strategically placed.