<!--quoteo(post=1894344:date=Jan 14 2012, 12:23 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 14 2012, 12:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think one of the biggest issues on the alien side currently, is when marines hit lvl 2 weapons, the 3 base classes are pretty much out of the game. Most skulks, as you mention, don't waste 6 res upgrading a skulk, instead they save it for upgrading to fade, or lerk if 2nd hive hasn't arrived.
My biggest issue is the cost of the cysts for the gorge. In almost every game I have played in the last couple of days, there has been no alien commander, and the worst thing is we often don't realise this until too late in the game. We need a commander notification on aliens for sure.
Gorges have nothing to do at the moment, res costs are too high to get a run to a res location and place a hydra. If you have a com who is helping, it is easier, but the gorge res for cysts is too high. I always love playing gorge, but this version I'm always waiting for res. How about some sort of system that allows the gorges to build res towers? For a res cost, they summon a drifter from the hive, and it builds a node. With the ability to create res that would really give the gorge a job to do, and a reason to be played.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The alien comm is not optional, if you don't have one then your team is dead in the water. There should certainly be a notification, but there's no point balancing around not having one.
Spit DPS in NS2: 50 Spit DPS in NS1: 75 Seeing that the gorge has lost its role as primary builder, I don't see any reason why it can't be even higher than it was in NS1.
Sentry DPS in NS2: 125 Sentry DPS in NS1: 12.5 The switch to light damage is hardly noticeable with damage like that. Even cutting the damage in half probably isn't a big enough nerf.
Axe structural DPS in NS2: 120 Knife structural DPS in NS1: 75 (approx.) Why the increase?
The new alien upgrade structures are ~200 health too fragile. Mature structures are either ~500 health too fragile or too expensive.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1894346:date=Jan 14 2012, 01:30 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 14 2012, 01:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien comm is not optional, if you don't have one then your team is dead in the water. There should certainly be a notification, but there's no point balancing around not having one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that the alien commander should have the same authority as the marine commander and be able to give orders and waypoints to alien units. Most aliens have no idea where the action is happening and end up just camping empty rooms and corridors.
I still prefer the NS1 style of lifeforms and upgrades, where you could still fade/onos/lerk with 1 hive, but you were kind of gimp compared to if you had 2 hives.
Also sentries really are out of control, part of the issue is that the sound of sentries firing don't always play and it's not obvious you are getting hit. Sometimes I'm flying around the map at full speed as a lerk, and fly through a marine base and go from full health to zero from 2 sentries.
Sentries should discourage the higher lifeforms from doing sustained damage against a base, this will let the aliens still be able to eventually destroy a base if marines don't back up the sentries.
Also at game start, they should be a more effective, but more expensive alternatives to mines to prevent skulk rushes.
Can we have individual upgrade costs either removed or scale upwards with lifeform? It should still cost no res for a skulk to upgrade. This is because as long as you have to save for <i>anything</i> the upgrades are cut.
The game seems to be repeating all the mistakes of NS1 at this point and slowly fixing them in the same manner, so I may as well point this out now.
<!--quoteo(post=1894374:date=Jan 14 2012, 11:29 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jan 14 2012, 11:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can we have individual upgrade costs either removed or scale upwards with lifeform? It should still cost no res for a skulk to upgrade. This is because as long as you have to save for <i>anything</i> the upgrades are cut.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Increased cost for higher lifeforms sounds good. It could smoothen out the biggest alien power bursts with gazillion lifeforms suddenly kicking in and/or hives finishing.
I think Tjosan talked about how he felt the free skulk upgrades dumbed down the skulk a bit though. With small cost even for skulks the team has to decide when to pick upgrades and when to really save up. With free upgrades it's a pretty no-brainer that you get chambers very early in any standard plan (and in 3.1 Final the game got rebalanced around that kind of play). With small upgrade costs for skulks there might be more possible variations on when and how you get the chambers rather than just getting them asap.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1894344:date=Jan 14 2012, 06:23 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 14 2012, 06:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, I think the whole problem with both the alien commander and the gorge, is that in NS2 they have created 2 roles, which are trying to replace the role of 1 in NS1. With this overlap, new flexibility needs to be created within both roles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Spot on, you've identified the problem.
The way I see it, there are only two possible solutions:
1. You try to improve the current comm/gorge system. To make that work you have to first redesign a large part of how the alien side of the game works, especially the economy, as that was all balanced and designed around the gorges and communal res pool for NS1 and does not fit the current comm with team res/personal res system. Then you have to give the alien comm things to actually do throughout the entire game. Then you have to redesign the gorge to turn him into a engineer/medic type combat class. That means beefing up his mobility, his firepower and his healing capacity. Once that's all done you have to just cross your fingers and hope it works out.
2. You remove the alien comm, revert to the old gorge builder/communal res pool system and... well that's pretty much it. You don't have to cross your fingers and hope it works out either, because we know from experience that it does.
I'm naturally slanted towards the second option. I can see the first option working out too, but it's a lot more work and if it isn't done perfectly it just won't work. It definitely isn't working at the moment.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1894411:date=Jan 14 2012, 12:10 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jan 14 2012, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894411"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. You remove the alien comm, revert to the old gorge builder/communal res pool system and... well that's pretty much it. You don't have to cross your fingers and hope it works out either, because we know from experience that it does.
I'm naturally slanted towards the second option. I can see the first option working out too, but it's a lot more work and if it isn't done perfectly it just won't work. It definitely isn't working at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea of keeping the alien comm but giving the gorge back the old role of builder. The alien comm can have a proper commander role like giving orders and waypoints, organizing the team for offence and defence, and seeing to upgrades. Being an alien comm is difficult enough as it is with the constant need to maintain cyst connections for infestation. If gorges were given back the power to create harvesters and drop hives (as some players don't use their res, they can use it to build a hive instead) then it would give more communal autonomy to the alien side.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1894424:date=Jan 14 2012, 06:13 PM:name=zombiehellmonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zombiehellmonkey @ Jan 14 2012, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being an alien comm is difficult enough as it is with the constant need to maintain cyst connections for infestation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think you'll find many who agree with you in this. Playing alien comm at the moment is very easy. The biggest problem is trying to stay focused while waiting for things to do. There just isn't enough content to divide between the gorge and comm.
<!--quoteo(post=1894424:date=Jan 14 2012, 05:13 PM:name=zombiehellmonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zombiehellmonkey @ Jan 14 2012, 05:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea of keeping the alien comm but giving the gorge back the old role of builder. The alien comm can have a proper commander role like giving orders and waypoints, organizing the team for offence and defence, and seeing to upgrades. Being an alien comm is difficult enough as it is with the constant need to maintain cyst connections for infestation. If gorges were given back the power to create harvesters and drop hives (as some players don't use their res, they can use it to build a hive instead) then it would give more communal autonomy to the alien side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry to be blunt but if you have any sort of prior experience with RTS games the alien commander is ridiculously easy. The current set of abilities the A-Comm has needs about 20 APM to max out. If anything they desperately need more things to be doing. The only possible overwhelming part is not knowing what build order to follow. Let's not needlessly skillcap an entire class because traditional FPS players can't do it straight away. I know for sure the first time I played an RTS online I was terrible. I couldn't micro or macro and had about 20APM and most of my FPS playing friends were the same way, but with only a little bit of practice that becomes so much easier. Multi-tasking in an RTS role is essentially the equivalent of aiming in an FPS.
My point is the alien comm at the moment is boring and needs more stuff to do. Unlike others, I'm opposed to the idea of scrapping the role and I think it has great potential.
----
I think a really cool way of adding more fun stuff to the Alien Commander would be to emphasise the active use of drifters. The way I see it is the Flash upgrade has a lot of potential, but it's stuck at 2 hives and is kinda crappy. However, if the system were changed to allow access to the upgrade at hive1 when you choose the hive's upgrade path it give the A-Comm a much more engrossing role right from the off.
You could have a different drifter ability for each upgrade path. It could either reinforce the flavour of chamber (i.e. Flash on a Shade hive) or go some way to making up for the deficits of each individual path (i.e. some type of regeneration/shield ability on a non-Crag hive). The downside would be that you'd only have a limited use (because you'd sacrifice a drifter each time) and you'd have to actively prepare for it and use it.
The other part of the change to the A-Comm I'd like to see would be a lot more drifter use in general. I think it could be a real nice point of differentiation between the marines and the aliens: the marine comm has his omnipresent combat spells (med-packs/ammo/scan), while the A-Comm has to manoeuvre drifters. With the above idea also implemented they'd be used for combat support, scouting and building. The A-Comm has them from the start of the game and they're integral to the role's effectiveness, whereas MACs only come into play mid-game and must stick with marines to repair/build.
This would require 2 things:
1. Cheaper drifter energy cost <i>or</i> hives to automatically spawn up to X drifters, one every Y time period (extra drifters would be quite expensive "emergency purchases" [I like this idea]).
2. A drifter speed increase or health increase. I'd prefer speed increase rather than health increase because it gives the marines a decent chance to kill the drifter before the Flash.
Edit: New Flash-like abilities would be unlocked appropriately with each new "upgrade path" hive (what is the official term for this?).
----
Gorge needs a complete re-work from what it is now. I personally want to see a little medic-battletank made of it!
<!--quoteo(post=1894433:date=Jan 14 2012, 11:47 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jan 14 2012, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894433"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think you'll find many who agree with you in this. Playing alien comm at the moment is very easy. The biggest problem is trying to stay focused while waiting for things to do. There just isn't enough content to divide between the gorge and comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, how about this: make a Gorge essential to building structures. Have structures build very slowly, but a Gorge (with heal spray) can make them build much faster (essentially, like with Hydras, but more pronounced), then give the Alien Comm more direct power elsewhere. This way, the Alien Comm has more to do to influence the battle, and the Gorge becomes more needed.
On a slightly different point, think that it is rather weird (both in gameplay as well as internal logic) to have to "double upgrade", that is, where the Alien Comm has to research an upgrade at a structure, and then Aliens have to then evolve it. IMO, I think a better solution would be to allow Aliens to upgrade just from the structures (e.g. just building Shell grants upgrades), but increase res cost for the individual aliens. This makes upgrades a more individual choice, as well as makes them more of a decision due to the higher opportunity cost (only Regen or only Carapace).
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1894436:date=Jan 14 2012, 06:56 PM:name=Omegalisk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omegalisk @ Jan 14 2012, 06:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, how about this: make a Gorge essential to building structures. Have structures build very slowly, but a Gorge (with heal spray) can make them build much faster (essentially, like with Hydras, but more pronounced), then give the Alien Comm more direct power elsewhere. This way, the Alien Comm has more to do to influence the battle, and the Gorge becomes more needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, let's add more "press right click for 2min straight, don't dare doing anything else" gamplay into NS2... it's not like it already had enough.
<!--quoteo(post=1894438:date=Jan 14 2012, 12:04 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Jan 14 2012, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, let's add more "press right click for 2min straight, don't dare doing anything else" gamplay into NS2... it's not like it already had enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not necessarily. It could be a "Heal Spray every 20 seconds" sort of thing; the Gorge couldn't run off, but could be busy setting up other defenses (Hydras, more cysts, helping Whips grow). The Gorge would manage the base until it is fully functional.
In general I like the design idea that the alien commander doesn't give orders but rather is in charge of infrastructure support and sharing info with his team in a more communal sense. Logically it would follow that the alien infrastructure should require more active maintenance than the marine one, which in theory fits with the added complexity of handling infestation and manually controlling mature structures. It's just so hard to know how that plays right now because general awareness of how the alien comm works is so low. The game hasn't been playable enough for most people to really play regularly and start learning the ropes. There definitely need to be way better UI alerts of what the comm is doing though, since most aliens are hardly even aware he exists.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
I've had another thought on why the aliens struggle with res so much. To take down the power connection to a Marine RT, you need to destroy the power node, in the same room. As an example on summit, you need to be in reactor core on the power node, but the Alien power connection is breakable at any point between say, Data core and reactor core. This means marines can defend their power grid with ease, but it's impossible for aliens to defend their grid properly. The costs of support cysts by gorges are too much, and it's just too easy for marines to break the power chain, halting the alien res production.
Also taking out the power network on the aliens costs energy to replace the cysts, but also requires a new harvester, as the old one dies, yet when you take out the power node for the marines, the extractor doesn't die.
The whole power grid things imbalanced at the moment, aliens have a true independent grid, which is easily disrupted, and the marines have essentially power points, which can be turned on or off only at specific locations.
There needs to be more of a balance between the 2, or the alien power grid needs to be easier to maintain.
EDIT----
After a few hours of gaming a few other things came to light. Devs want random spawns, but they don't want vents in marine spawns. Currently, aliens starting in sub access have no way of getting out of the hive to attack marines, other than the primary routes.
I know this is down to mapping guidelines which are not designed for random spawns. Aliens need vent routes in ALL of their potential hive locations, because coming out of a hive through the primary route is suicide for the smaller aliens. Mapping guidelines say the marine spawn can have no vents in it. These rules are fine, but get broken immediately with random spawns. This could be solved in Summit for example by adding vents to all tech points except sub access, and making sub access a fixed marine start. This is going to cause a huge number of balance issues as long as there is no vent route out of the hive.
My only concerns at the moment are that basically if the game goes on for more than 20min marines win.. carapace doesn't seem to be all that helpful, while marine armour upgrades are.. how many bites to kill an armoured up marine ugh
re: the first post, I kinda agree with the IP/s + RTs not needing power nodes .. but might be an option to half the rate of respawn of an IP if there is no node, same with rt's res speed
a little wish would be lerk spores shoot out a little more ahead of the lerk
<!--quoteo(post=1894411:date=Jan 15 2012, 12:10 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jan 15 2012, 12:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894411"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. You remove the alien comm, revert to the old gorge builder/communal res pool system and... well that's pretty much it. You don't have to cross your fingers and hope it works out either, because we know from experience that it does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It may work for 6v6, but otherwise... not really.
One way to approach it is to remove the alien comm, and have the gorge take over all the comm's duties, without modifying the resource system - the gorges just build out of the team res pool.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1894544:date=Jan 15 2012, 03:49 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 15 2012, 03:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894544"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It may work for 6v6, but otherwise... not really.
One way to approach it is to remove the alien comm, and have the gorge take over all the comm's duties, without modifying the resource system - the gorges just build out of the team res pool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Balance only became a big problem at 12v12 or larger and there are other ways to remedy that. It didn't help that NS1 maps were balanced for 6v6 either, I'm assuming all NS2 maps won't be.
Not going to work because one gorge can waste all your res on the wrong stuff and ruin the round.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1894480:date=Jan 14 2012, 01:16 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 14 2012, 01:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There needs to be more of a balance between the 2, or the alien power grid needs to be easier to maintain.
After a few hours of gaming a few other things came to light. Devs want random spawns, but they don't want vents in marine spawns. Currently, aliens starting in sub access have no way of getting out of the hive to attack marines, other than the primary routes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just make the vents in a base "lockable" by marines only when occupied with comm chair? easy solution.
also, i like the independent approaches to the power grid, but very much agree cysts should be slightly cheaper, its cool to see a room covered, anyways. its fun to clear a hive room of everything, and if left abandoned for too long eventually becomes "infested" again like an unattended wound.
all i'm waiting for is true infestation not the placeholder that exists, if UWE is still going in that direction of the dynamic infestation?? (would love to see fractal vines from cysts!)
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Welding vents in ns1 worked fine.
Also after watching the ns2hd[356] with the cloaked alien running past the observatory.
I thought observatories would be able to uncloak nearby aliens automatically. And there were supposedly talks about switching cloak over to the passive ability and combining it with disorientate. And giving the black gas cloud to the shade as a trigger-able ability. I saw that in the progress a while back.
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1894433:date=Jan 14 2012, 01:47 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jan 14 2012, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894433"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think you'll find many who agree with you in this. Playing alien comm at the moment is very easy. The biggest problem is trying to stay focused while waiting for things to do. There just isn't enough content to divide between the gorge and comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know about you, but when I play alien comm, I'm busy jumping in and out of the hive, killing spawn campers, defending harvesters and dropping extra cysts. I can rack up as many skulk kills as a non-comm player. I might not be a great comm, but I make myself useful when I'm "waiting for things to do".
No offence, but there's no reason for the alien comm just to sit there being 'bored'. But you're right, the alien comm needs more things to do in that role.
I am a bit unhappy with the alien vision. I think it should have more contrast on marine players. Its so hard to see them. Maybe its just me but I hardly can use alien vision unless im on fire or im spraying gas as lerk.
<!--quoteo(post=1894548:date=Jan 15 2012, 11:18 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jan 15 2012, 11:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894548"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Balance only became a big problem at 12v12 or larger and there are other ways to remedy that. It didn't help that NS1 maps were balanced for 6v6 either, I'm assuming all NS2 maps won't be.
Not going to work because one gorge can waste all your res on the wrong stuff and ruin the round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So? The commander can do that already.
Also, I support this: <!--quoteo(post=1894454:date=Jan 15 2012, 03:31 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jan 15 2012, 03:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As the chambers are no longer tech chambers themselves, it would be awesome if the gorge could start placing them on the field.
And a tf2 engineer like build menu would work perfect instead of taking up multiple slots.
Comments
My biggest issue is the cost of the cysts for the gorge. In almost every game I have played in the last couple of days, there has been no alien commander, and the worst thing is we often don't realise this until too late in the game. We need a commander notification on aliens for sure.
Gorges have nothing to do at the moment, res costs are too high to get a run to a res location and place a hydra. If you have a com who is helping, it is easier, but the gorge res for cysts is too high. I always love playing gorge, but this version I'm always waiting for res. How about some sort of system that allows the gorges to build res towers? For a res cost, they summon a drifter from the hive, and it builds a node. With the ability to create res that would really give the gorge a job to do, and a reason to be played.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The alien comm is not optional, if you don't have one then your team is dead in the water. There should certainly be a notification, but there's no point balancing around not having one.
Spit DPS in NS2: 50
Spit DPS in NS1: 75
Seeing that the gorge has lost its role as primary builder, I don't see any reason why it can't be even higher than it was in NS1.
Sentry DPS in NS2: 125
Sentry DPS in NS1: 12.5
The switch to light damage is hardly noticeable with damage like that. Even cutting the damage in half probably isn't a big enough nerf.
Axe structural DPS in NS2: 120
Knife structural DPS in NS1: 75 (approx.)
Why the increase?
The new alien upgrade structures are ~200 health too fragile.
Mature structures are either ~500 health too fragile or too expensive.
I think that the alien commander should have the same authority as the marine commander and be able to give orders and waypoints to alien units. Most aliens have no idea where the action is happening and end up just camping empty rooms and corridors.
Also sentries really are out of control, part of the issue is that the sound of sentries firing don't always play and it's not obvious you are getting hit. Sometimes I'm flying around the map at full speed as a lerk, and fly through a marine base and go from full health to zero from 2 sentries.
Sentries should discourage the higher lifeforms from doing sustained damage against a base, this will let the aliens still be able to eventually destroy a base if marines don't back up the sentries.
Also at game start, they should be a more effective, but more expensive alternatives to mines to prevent skulk rushes.
The game seems to be repeating all the mistakes of NS1 at this point and slowly fixing them in the same manner, so I may as well point this out now.
Increased cost for higher lifeforms sounds good. It could smoothen out the biggest alien power bursts with gazillion lifeforms suddenly kicking in and/or hives finishing.
I think Tjosan talked about how he felt the free skulk upgrades dumbed down the skulk a bit though. With small cost even for skulks the team has to decide when to pick upgrades and when to really save up. With free upgrades it's a pretty no-brainer that you get chambers very early in any standard plan (and in 3.1 Final the game got rebalanced around that kind of play). With small upgrade costs for skulks there might be more possible variations on when and how you get the chambers rather than just getting them asap.
Sentry DPS in NS1: 12.5<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holy ######, that explains a lot :)
Spot on, you've identified the problem.
The way I see it, there are only two possible solutions:
1. You try to improve the current comm/gorge system. To make that work you have to first redesign a large part of how the alien side of the game works, especially the economy, as that was all balanced and designed around the gorges and communal res pool for NS1 and does not fit the current comm with team res/personal res system. Then you have to give the alien comm things to actually do throughout the entire game. Then you have to redesign the gorge to turn him into a engineer/medic type combat class. That means beefing up his mobility, his firepower and his healing capacity. Once that's all done you have to just cross your fingers and hope it works out.
2. You remove the alien comm, revert to the old gorge builder/communal res pool system and... well that's pretty much it. You don't have to cross your fingers and hope it works out either, because we know from experience that it does.
I'm naturally slanted towards the second option. I can see the first option working out too, but it's a lot more work and if it isn't done perfectly it just won't work. It definitely isn't working at the moment.
I'm naturally slanted towards the second option. I can see the first option working out too, but it's a lot more work and if it isn't done perfectly it just won't work. It definitely isn't working at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea of keeping the alien comm but giving the gorge back the old role of builder. The alien comm can have a proper commander role like giving orders and waypoints, organizing the team for offence and defence, and seeing to upgrades. Being an alien comm is difficult enough as it is with the constant need to maintain cyst connections for infestation. If gorges were given back the power to create harvesters and drop hives (as some players don't use their res, they can use it to build a hive instead) then it would give more communal autonomy to the alien side.
I don't think you'll find many who agree with you in this. Playing alien comm at the moment is very easy. The biggest problem is trying to stay focused while waiting for things to do. There just isn't enough content to divide between the gorge and comm.
Sorry to be blunt but if you have any sort of prior experience with RTS games the alien commander is ridiculously easy. The current set of abilities the A-Comm has needs about 20 APM to max out. If anything they desperately need more things to be doing. The only possible overwhelming part is not knowing what build order to follow. Let's not needlessly skillcap an entire class because traditional FPS players can't do it straight away. I know for sure the first time I played an RTS online I was terrible. I couldn't micro or macro and had about 20APM and most of my FPS playing friends were the same way, but with only a little bit of practice that becomes so much easier. Multi-tasking in an RTS role is essentially the equivalent of aiming in an FPS.
My point is the alien comm at the moment is boring and needs more stuff to do. Unlike others, I'm opposed to the idea of scrapping the role and I think it has great potential.
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I think a really cool way of adding more fun stuff to the Alien Commander would be to emphasise the active use of drifters. The way I see it is the Flash upgrade has a lot of potential, but it's stuck at 2 hives and is kinda crappy. However, if the system were changed to allow access to the upgrade at hive1 when you choose the hive's upgrade path it give the A-Comm a much more engrossing role right from the off.
You could have a different drifter ability for each upgrade path. It could either reinforce the flavour of chamber (i.e. Flash on a Shade hive) or go some way to making up for the deficits of each individual path (i.e. some type of regeneration/shield ability on a non-Crag hive). The downside would be that you'd only have a limited use (because you'd sacrifice a drifter each time) and you'd have to actively prepare for it and use it.
The other part of the change to the A-Comm I'd like to see would be a lot more drifter use in general. I think it could be a real nice point of differentiation between the marines and the aliens: the marine comm has his omnipresent combat spells (med-packs/ammo/scan), while the A-Comm has to manoeuvre drifters. With the above idea also implemented they'd be used for combat support, scouting and building. The A-Comm has them from the start of the game and they're integral to the role's effectiveness, whereas MACs only come into play mid-game and must stick with marines to repair/build.
This would require 2 things:
1. Cheaper drifter energy cost <i>or</i> hives to automatically spawn up to X drifters, one every Y time period (extra drifters would be quite expensive "emergency purchases" [I like this idea]).
2. A drifter speed increase or health increase. I'd prefer speed increase rather than health increase because it gives the marines a decent chance to kill the drifter before the Flash.
Edit: New Flash-like abilities would be unlocked appropriately with each new "upgrade path" hive (what is the official term for this?).
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Gorge needs a complete re-work from what it is now. I personally want to see a little medic-battletank made of it!
Well, how about this: make a Gorge essential to building structures. Have structures build very slowly, but a Gorge (with heal spray) can make them build much faster (essentially, like with Hydras, but more pronounced), then give the Alien Comm more direct power elsewhere. This way, the Alien Comm has more to do to influence the battle, and the Gorge becomes more needed.
On a slightly different point, think that it is rather weird (both in gameplay as well as internal logic) to have to "double upgrade", that is, where the Alien Comm has to research an upgrade at a structure, and then Aliens have to then evolve it. IMO, I think a better solution would be to allow Aliens to upgrade just from the structures (e.g. just building Shell grants upgrades), but increase res cost for the individual aliens. This makes upgrades a more individual choice, as well as makes them more of a decision due to the higher opportunity cost (only Regen or only Carapace).
Yes, let's add more "press right click for 2min straight, don't dare doing anything else" gamplay into NS2... it's not like it already had enough.
Not necessarily. It could be a "Heal Spray every 20 seconds" sort of thing; the Gorge couldn't run off, but could be busy setting up other defenses (Hydras, more cysts, helping Whips grow). The Gorge would manage the base until it is fully functional.
And a tf2 engineer like build menu would work perfect instead of taking up multiple slots.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/gjyyL.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Also taking out the power network on the aliens costs energy to replace the cysts, but also requires a new harvester, as the old one dies, yet when you take out the power node for the marines, the extractor doesn't die.
The whole power grid things imbalanced at the moment, aliens have a true independent grid, which is easily disrupted, and the marines have essentially power points, which can be turned on or off only at specific locations.
There needs to be more of a balance between the 2, or the alien power grid needs to be easier to maintain.
EDIT----
After a few hours of gaming a few other things came to light. Devs want random spawns, but they don't want vents in marine spawns. Currently, aliens starting in sub access have no way of getting out of the hive to attack marines, other than the primary routes.
I know this is down to mapping guidelines which are not designed for random spawns. Aliens need vent routes in ALL of their potential hive locations, because coming out of a hive through the primary route is suicide for the smaller aliens. Mapping guidelines say the marine spawn can have no vents in it. These rules are fine, but get broken immediately with random spawns. This could be solved in Summit for example by adding vents to all tech points except sub access, and making sub access a fixed marine start. This is going to cause a huge number of balance issues as long as there is no vent route out of the hive.
My only concerns at the moment are that basically if the game goes on for more than 20min marines win.. carapace doesn't seem to be all that helpful, while marine armour upgrades are.. how many bites to kill an armoured up marine ugh
re: the first post, I kinda agree with the IP/s + RTs not needing power nodes .. but might be an option to half the rate of respawn of an IP if there is no node, same with rt's res speed
a little wish would be lerk spores shoot out a little more ahead of the lerk
It may work for 6v6, but otherwise... not really.
One way to approach it is to remove the alien comm, and have the gorge take over all the comm's duties, without modifying the resource system - the gorges just build out of the team res pool.
One way to approach it is to remove the alien comm, and have the gorge take over all the comm's duties, without modifying the resource system - the gorges just build out of the team res pool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Balance only became a big problem at 12v12 or larger and there are other ways to remedy that. It didn't help that NS1 maps were balanced for 6v6 either, I'm assuming all NS2 maps won't be.
Not going to work because one gorge can waste all your res on the wrong stuff and ruin the round.
After a few hours of gaming a few other things came to light. Devs want random spawns, but they don't want vents in marine spawns. Currently, aliens starting in sub access have no way of getting out of the hive to attack marines, other than the primary routes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just make the vents in a base "lockable" by marines only when occupied with comm chair? easy solution.
also, i like the independent approaches to the power grid, but very much agree cysts should be slightly cheaper, its cool to see a room covered, anyways.
its fun to clear a hive room of everything, and if left abandoned for too long eventually becomes "infested" again like an unattended wound.
all i'm waiting for is true infestation not the placeholder that exists, if UWE is still going in that direction of the dynamic infestation?? (would love to see fractal vines from cysts!)
Also after watching the ns2hd[356] with the cloaked alien running past the observatory.
I thought observatories would be able to uncloak nearby aliens automatically. And there were supposedly talks about switching cloak over to the passive ability and combining it with disorientate. And giving the black gas cloud to the shade as a trigger-able ability. I saw that in the progress a while back.
I don't know about you, but when I play alien comm, I'm busy jumping in and out of the hive, killing spawn campers, defending harvesters and dropping extra cysts. I can rack up as many skulk kills as a non-comm player. I might not be a great comm, but I make myself useful when I'm "waiting for things to do".
No offence, but there's no reason for the alien comm just to sit there being 'bored'. But you're right, the alien comm needs more things to do in that role.
I think it should have more contrast on marine players.
Its so hard to see them. Maybe its just me but I hardly can use
alien vision unless im on fire or im spraying gas as lerk.
Not going to work because one gorge can waste all your res on the wrong stuff and ruin the round.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So? The commander can do that already.
Also, I support this:
<!--quoteo(post=1894454:date=Jan 15 2012, 03:31 AM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jan 15 2012, 03:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894454"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As the chambers are no longer tech chambers themselves, it would be awesome if the gorge could start placing them on the field.
And a tf2 engineer like build menu would work perfect instead of taking up multiple slots.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/gjyyL.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->