State of the game.
Grissi
Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Please discuss any current ideas/thoughts about the game.</div>Hello everyone,
been playing the beta for awhile now and decided to make this a summary of my thoughts of on the current state of the game. Hope to get some thoughts out and good discussion out of it :).
Ill start with the <i>Power System</i>.
From the start I really loved the idea if they could make it work, but this kind of system can be really hard to balance. At this moment I would like to see the power system stay in the game but rt's and ip's should not require power to function. All other advance structures should require power such as arms lab and phase gates.
The reason I don't want ips to require power is because it can be really hard for marines to defend both the ips and the power node at the same time early game. This will probably have more impact on public games than competitive but even so I think its logical for the ip's to get power from the command chair. This would solve the power rush issue players are talking about and wont have to much impact on the later part of the game.
The reason for resource towers is because it feels like a chore to bite both rt's and power nodes down in every room. At the same time marines need to waste time to rebuild the rt and the power node. I think the game will be faster and more enjoyable if the focus in the early game could be more on the rts and not on the power. Later in the game when more powerful tech comes into play power nodes will play their part like they do today.
Overall though I like the current system, it would be awesome if mapmakers could customize how rooms look like when they are powered/un-powered/under infestation, but that's for another topic.
<b>Marines</b>
<i>Weapons</i>
I think LMG, Gl's and Shotguns are currently are their right place. I have seen people comment a bit about the shotgun being to powerful but I think it isn't far of it rightful place(feels similar to its ns1 counterpart in this build).
Biggest issue I have seen with people commenting on shotguns is how fast they die as fade vs them. The main reason for this is because fades keep trying to kill a marine with a shotgun even though they didn't get initial good position or are going solo vs 2+ marines. But more on that later.
Pistol feels right but it feels weird how long it takes him to pick it up and switch to the other fire mode.
I would like to see welders again in the game, currently the armor repair makes marines really powerful early game(also armory repairs armor). I am also curious if commander will give down ha/jp's or the player needs to buy it them. Might be harder in non competitive game to get team of heavies together if marines can buy them whenever they like.
Overall I think its going to the right direction. I do not however like the sprint ability marines have and I think it should be removed. I think it would be better to balance it around the normal marine speed, marines always travel with sprint anyway since there is such a minor setback not to. Also there are a lot of times where using walk in ns1 to move silently was very useful, including competitive play.
I like the new nano shield ability the commander got but I think it might require a 5 sec delay before usage(to prevent 4 shield-ed marines rushing into hive). But I might be over thinking it. It could be a good idea to add more such abilities such as power a building for limited time(could power up a phase gate or arms lab when needed).
<b>Aliens</b>
I did worry about the dynamic infestation early on because I knew it would put big limitations to the alien team, but I think it is working rather well now. I do no like however that cyst build instantly with 100% hp in this build, looks kinda silly. The slow on marines and buff on aliens are also good things even though they are minor.
I wont comment much on the upgrades and commander since I currently don't have much experience with it but I do like what the changes they did in 190.
I feel like alien commanders are not commanding enough, would be nice to get good order indicators for aliens(such as set up ambush here). Maybe alien commanders should be shown on the map as well.
<i>Lifeforms</i>
Skulks
They are in the right place, similar to ns1 but way harder to sound spot. Not much to comment here.
Gorges
I think they are also in the right place, they play a big role in the alien team and I think they will be a must for the alien team to be able to get their 2nd hive in every game.
Lerks
They might need little changes, vs lmg's they work great but since they have to go close and personal vs shotguns now to use their gas ability they might need a little buff. Also this is the only lifeform alien can get with 1 hive so it must be able to help skulks hold of marines til they get the 2nd hive. Good lerk players though might not have any troubles playing vs shotguns, would be nice to see competitive players comment on this.
Fades
Similar to ns1 fades, can kill most marines 1v1 but when its 1v2 they can have troubles. However with their team they are monsters(with skulks and lerks). I think they are at the right place. Most of the players I see commenting how weak they are now are players who still blink straight in into group of marines expecting to survive. After the fps improvements marines have easier time hitting fades so they can't to whatever they like anymore. When playing fade you should be consider enemy weapons, upgrades, numbers and your hp/energy every time you go in(with a secured escape route in mind). Depending on the situation going in alone may be suicide.
-- -- --
I'm not sure how well it will go to balance the lifeforms restrictions. What is hurting the aliens most currently is how hard it can be to get a 2nd hive. When the frame rates gets better marines will have easier time picking out skulks and lerks even with good ambushes, in ns1 fades were required to keep them at bay while the 2nd hive went up.
I think the alien team will need to depend on good gorge play to be able to secure a 2nd hive. Even so not counting the frame rate the alien team feels like its going in the right direction.
<b>Overall thoughts</b>
Surprisingly I think the game is not far of with balance, might change with tech 3 though. I would go real slow on the balance though and would let both competitive and public play it self out a bit and see if there are any issues. I think slow and small changes is the way to go, make everything useful and feel overpowered when used right. One of the best things about ns1 was how everything felt really useful(not counting turrets) for its cost, even today its rare to see that kind of balance.
The main issue at the moment though is how long games are lasting, its manly because how hard it's to end the game with uncoordinated team. This issue will probably be fixed with tech 3 (most non competitive ns1 games ended early or with heavy armor /lots of onos.
One last thing, in every new game that comes out these days players keep talking about balance endlessly, everything is overpowered they cant win against and underpowered when they cant use it to its full potential. With such a new game(and a new build) it takes time for everyone to figure out how the game should be played. Instead of thinking underpowered/imbalance you should thing of a way around it and find the best solution given the situation(hope that made sens :). In time the balance issues will come to light and will be fixed.
Message to the Devs:
You guys are awesome, I'm amazed how well the game looks. I am really exited about the game and I'm really looking forward to it's release. Hopefully it will be a even bigger masterpiece than ns1 :).
-- -- --
Sorry for any spelling errors and grammar. English is not my first language
Thank you for reading, and please comment. Would be nice to see different perspective and options on the game.
been playing the beta for awhile now and decided to make this a summary of my thoughts of on the current state of the game. Hope to get some thoughts out and good discussion out of it :).
Ill start with the <i>Power System</i>.
From the start I really loved the idea if they could make it work, but this kind of system can be really hard to balance. At this moment I would like to see the power system stay in the game but rt's and ip's should not require power to function. All other advance structures should require power such as arms lab and phase gates.
The reason I don't want ips to require power is because it can be really hard for marines to defend both the ips and the power node at the same time early game. This will probably have more impact on public games than competitive but even so I think its logical for the ip's to get power from the command chair. This would solve the power rush issue players are talking about and wont have to much impact on the later part of the game.
The reason for resource towers is because it feels like a chore to bite both rt's and power nodes down in every room. At the same time marines need to waste time to rebuild the rt and the power node. I think the game will be faster and more enjoyable if the focus in the early game could be more on the rts and not on the power. Later in the game when more powerful tech comes into play power nodes will play their part like they do today.
Overall though I like the current system, it would be awesome if mapmakers could customize how rooms look like when they are powered/un-powered/under infestation, but that's for another topic.
<b>Marines</b>
<i>Weapons</i>
I think LMG, Gl's and Shotguns are currently are their right place. I have seen people comment a bit about the shotgun being to powerful but I think it isn't far of it rightful place(feels similar to its ns1 counterpart in this build).
Biggest issue I have seen with people commenting on shotguns is how fast they die as fade vs them. The main reason for this is because fades keep trying to kill a marine with a shotgun even though they didn't get initial good position or are going solo vs 2+ marines. But more on that later.
Pistol feels right but it feels weird how long it takes him to pick it up and switch to the other fire mode.
I would like to see welders again in the game, currently the armor repair makes marines really powerful early game(also armory repairs armor). I am also curious if commander will give down ha/jp's or the player needs to buy it them. Might be harder in non competitive game to get team of heavies together if marines can buy them whenever they like.
Overall I think its going to the right direction. I do not however like the sprint ability marines have and I think it should be removed. I think it would be better to balance it around the normal marine speed, marines always travel with sprint anyway since there is such a minor setback not to. Also there are a lot of times where using walk in ns1 to move silently was very useful, including competitive play.
I like the new nano shield ability the commander got but I think it might require a 5 sec delay before usage(to prevent 4 shield-ed marines rushing into hive). But I might be over thinking it. It could be a good idea to add more such abilities such as power a building for limited time(could power up a phase gate or arms lab when needed).
<b>Aliens</b>
I did worry about the dynamic infestation early on because I knew it would put big limitations to the alien team, but I think it is working rather well now. I do no like however that cyst build instantly with 100% hp in this build, looks kinda silly. The slow on marines and buff on aliens are also good things even though they are minor.
I wont comment much on the upgrades and commander since I currently don't have much experience with it but I do like what the changes they did in 190.
I feel like alien commanders are not commanding enough, would be nice to get good order indicators for aliens(such as set up ambush here). Maybe alien commanders should be shown on the map as well.
<i>Lifeforms</i>
Skulks
They are in the right place, similar to ns1 but way harder to sound spot. Not much to comment here.
Gorges
I think they are also in the right place, they play a big role in the alien team and I think they will be a must for the alien team to be able to get their 2nd hive in every game.
Lerks
They might need little changes, vs lmg's they work great but since they have to go close and personal vs shotguns now to use their gas ability they might need a little buff. Also this is the only lifeform alien can get with 1 hive so it must be able to help skulks hold of marines til they get the 2nd hive. Good lerk players though might not have any troubles playing vs shotguns, would be nice to see competitive players comment on this.
Fades
Similar to ns1 fades, can kill most marines 1v1 but when its 1v2 they can have troubles. However with their team they are monsters(with skulks and lerks). I think they are at the right place. Most of the players I see commenting how weak they are now are players who still blink straight in into group of marines expecting to survive. After the fps improvements marines have easier time hitting fades so they can't to whatever they like anymore. When playing fade you should be consider enemy weapons, upgrades, numbers and your hp/energy every time you go in(with a secured escape route in mind). Depending on the situation going in alone may be suicide.
-- -- --
I'm not sure how well it will go to balance the lifeforms restrictions. What is hurting the aliens most currently is how hard it can be to get a 2nd hive. When the frame rates gets better marines will have easier time picking out skulks and lerks even with good ambushes, in ns1 fades were required to keep them at bay while the 2nd hive went up.
I think the alien team will need to depend on good gorge play to be able to secure a 2nd hive. Even so not counting the frame rate the alien team feels like its going in the right direction.
<b>Overall thoughts</b>
Surprisingly I think the game is not far of with balance, might change with tech 3 though. I would go real slow on the balance though and would let both competitive and public play it self out a bit and see if there are any issues. I think slow and small changes is the way to go, make everything useful and feel overpowered when used right. One of the best things about ns1 was how everything felt really useful(not counting turrets) for its cost, even today its rare to see that kind of balance.
The main issue at the moment though is how long games are lasting, its manly because how hard it's to end the game with uncoordinated team. This issue will probably be fixed with tech 3 (most non competitive ns1 games ended early or with heavy armor /lots of onos.
One last thing, in every new game that comes out these days players keep talking about balance endlessly, everything is overpowered they cant win against and underpowered when they cant use it to its full potential. With such a new game(and a new build) it takes time for everyone to figure out how the game should be played. Instead of thinking underpowered/imbalance you should thing of a way around it and find the best solution given the situation(hope that made sens :). In time the balance issues will come to light and will be fixed.
Message to the Devs:
You guys are awesome, I'm amazed how well the game looks. I am really exited about the game and I'm really looking forward to it's release. Hopefully it will be a even bigger masterpiece than ns1 :).
-- -- --
Sorry for any spelling errors and grammar. English is not my first language
Thank you for reading, and please comment. Would be nice to see different perspective and options on the game.
Comments
I don't think IPs not needing power is a good idea. It just makes the power system less and less important. You may as well go the whole way and just scrap it.
I feel like with the increased regen gorges have become less important. I kinda liked it when you had to work as a team and rely on the gorge to heal you at the front lines. I think the gorge needs more support abilities and it's role needs to be more clearly defined (what should the gorge be doing with the majority of his time?).
I also feel like the lerk is pretty weak this build. It's difficult to even take on a lone marine now and once marines have shotguns you are pretty much useless as you can't even gas.
As far as the alien upgrade system goes, I think you should be able to select upgrades before you spawn, so that when you spawn you already have those upgrades. I also always thought it'd be cool if you could devolve to a lower life form and get your res back, so if your team really needed a gorge and you were already fade, you could change without worrying about losing res. I remember times where I fell down into ventilation as a gorge and then evolved to lerk and flew out safely ^^ I think it'd help aliens be more dynamic with their strat if you could evolve without losing the res.
But as a result of that, I came to a different conclusion to Wilson, a conclusion more aligned with yours - that because they are an artificial weak point, their loss should not disable those things that are absolutely critical on the most basic level (that is, Command Centers, RTs and IPs) - everything else can, and should, be disabled because power nodes are a weak point that allows the alien team to temporarily "tip the favour" (no sentry support, no health or ammo from armouries, no phasing etc.), but that advantage should not lead to "winning the game" (no spawns and no resources) because striking at a weak point entails too little risk. In this way, the power node still has its purpose as a weak point for aliens to exploit to obtain an advantage - but it is not absolutely critical to basic survival.
Regarding marines, I mostly agree with your thoughts, but not the fix, i.e. restoring walk (we've got crouch anyway). But I think I would like to see the shift key (in conjunction with other keys) used for close quarters maneuverability, like a dash, a short leap, etc. instead of having panicky jumping up and down and around in combat, or sprinting everywhere be the default behaviour.
Agree with comments on aliens.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One last thing, in every new game that comes out these days players keep talking about balance endlessly, everything is overpowered they cant win against and underpowered when they cant use it to its full potential. With such a new game(and a new build) it takes time for everyone to figure out how the game should be played. Instead of thinking underpowered/imbalance you should thing of a way around it and find the best solution given the situation(hope that made sens :). In time the balance issues will come to light and will be fixed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the real take-home message, though. Let the game play out, let the players adapt. And if the problems persist, consult your programmer.
I think power node should be recycled as an optional map element, so the mapper can decide if he wants any and where to put them. It would be an intermediate solution between removing them completely and making them mandatory like now, so you can keep the cool situations they can sometimes create while negating the negative sides.
In earlier builds marine/alien start were powered without power nodes so I suspect this is already in the editor(?)
Also the Alien RTs need the cysts to be "working" so i think the RTs of the Marines should also need power.
So, I haven't played much and therefor this might sound stupid to the more advanced players out there but I had very very little fun at all for the following reasons.
- I was forced to go aliens every time, couldn't get a try on marines because the team would always have more players on it. I'd like to play a bit of both.
- It seems that as an Alien you're expected to know the map by heart. I spend a good 10 minutes running around in circles and ended up having to suicide just to get back to any location I knew (and take the right instead of the left). Marines get a little minimap which prevents this so I guess Aliens require more skill and familiarity with the game to play well ? But since it's kind of hard to get on a marines team (previous point) it's hard to get a feel of the game/maps as marines.
- Mines ! Mines everywhere ! It's fun to fight a player, if you lose to him ok, that's part of the deal. It's not fun to keep stepping on mines... EVERYWHERE... 75% of the times i died was because of mines. It's easy to walk around them when you're just running around but when you fight a marine you have to jump, run, dodge, make use of the space to make him miss. Appearantly the best defence against this is to litter the battlefield (well and bases and corners and basically everywhere else) with mines. It literally blew up any fun I was having in the combat.
- There seems to be very little an Alien can do to a turret, this is probably due to lack of experience on my part but every time the Marines got a turret up outside of our hive it would just destroy everyone attempting to break the Marines fortified position and basically gave them the entire map. Once we did manage to clean that up but it took a solid 15 minutes of bumrushing, which wasn't enjoyable at all.
Though, I was REALLY impressed with the graphics and everything ran really smoothly, save for some server hickups. When I destroyed a power node and the room's power went out was a super cool touch. So I think most of the work lies in balancing things for people just starting out, I'm sure this game is tons of fun for people that know what they're doing. But for me just starting out, I can't force myself to play without having fun until I get to that point of knowing enough about the game to start having fun.
This. One of the things NS2 could really use right now is just a little message that pops up "press C for minimap" just like the other ones "type j1,j2, rr to join ...".
Alot of new players arn't aware you can do this and it causes alot of frustration.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- There seems to be very little an Alien can do to a turret, this is probably due to lack of experience on my part but every time the Marines got a turret up outside of our hive it would just destroy everyone attempting to break the Marines fortified position and basically gave them the entire map. Once we did manage to clean that up but it took a solid 15 minutes of bumrushing, which wasn't enjoyable at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My thoughts exactly. Onos may counter turrets, but pre 3 hives its an absolute pain in the ass. Even if it really was the case that "marines that spam turrets lose" (which it isnt), its just a frustrating and unenjoyable experience as it stands. I personally just dont understand why nothing is ever officially done about turret design.
I tried to use the spores as lerk to confused them but I died very fast instead.
For example, it might reduce armour exclusively by 10 points a hit, and once you ran out of armour, it would hit health for only 3 points at a time.
- Regarding power, I'm pretty happy with the system as-is. Power plays perhaps a small role then it did in the past, and yes, it's not the power "grid" that I originally wanted, but I think it is a great dramatic element. I think it's a nice counter-point to turtling and over-building in rooms. I really don't see changing it to be less effective at this point (not powering down Extractors, IPs).
- About changing lifeforms to get res back: there is a sekrat Shift evolution coming (called Hypermutation) that will allow you to change forms very quickly and essentially for free. It's a little hard to explain but...specifically, any resources or time that you've spent evolving, are applied towards future evolutions. Ie, if you evolve to Gorge, it takes the normal time/cost. But then if you go back to Skulk, it costs you nothing and takes (essentially) no time. If you then go back to Gorge, it again costs you nothing resource wise. If you then go to Lerk, it's resource/time cost will be reduced by the amount you already spent: the Gorge cost/time. Make sense? I think this is going to open up a ton of cool strategies.
- We're working on mine-spam so it won't continue if it remains a problem.
- I've queued that "press C for minimap" tooltip for addition.
- Lerk spores to confuse sentries is kind of in, but not really working properly yet. Look for it in the next build, so aliens will be less frustrated with them.
It doesn't really work like that currently. The first thing good comms do when they decide to turtle is to place turrets covering the power node, not to mention keeping a compliment of macs around who can more or less instantly repair it if it gets damaged. Power nodes right now don't really add much to gameplay, but cause a slew of issues, not limited to:
1. Creates a feeling of boredom because you have to spend a significant part of the game looking at an inanimate object while pressing +use or +attack. It doesn't feel like you're fighting for territory, it just feels like you're being forced to do a chore.
2. Enables aliens to get a quick and cheesy win before the marines get turrets up or minespam the node. Baserushing was already pretty easy and powerful before the introduction of power nodes, so this just feels unfair and frustrating for the marine team.
3. Confuses new players.
4. "Ugly-fying" maps. The boxes are ugly and look out of place no matter where they are (not to mention the cartoonish blue globe-glow they give off when socketed and built).
5. Powered down rooms are frustrating (a lesson should be learned from the fact that all the popular NS1 maps were reasonably bright in combat heavy areas).
6. Limiting the mapper's control over lighting is a pervasive issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1894213:date=Jan 13 2012, 08:52 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 13 2012, 08:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Lerk spores to confuse sentries is kind of in, but not really working properly yet. Look for it in the next build, so aliens will be less frustrated with them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is simply too risky to fly in as a Lerk and drop spores in close combat. Sorry to say, but this will never work unless the crop duster spores are replaced with ranged spores. A good way to do that would simply be to replace the current spores with a "spore spike" instead -- basically a slower moving spike projectile that explodes into a spore cloud on impact.
<!--quoteo(post=1894213:date=Jan 13 2012, 08:52 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 13 2012, 08:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- About changing lifeforms to get res back: there is a sekrat Shift evolution coming (called Hypermutation) that will allow you to change forms very quickly and essentially for free. It's a little hard to explain but...specifically, any resources or time that you've spent evolving, are applied towards future evolutions. Ie, if you evolve to Gorge, it takes the normal time/cost. But then if you go back to Skulk, it costs you nothing and takes (essentially) no time. If you then go back to Gorge, it again costs you nothing resource wise. If you then go to Lerk, it's resource/time cost will be reduced by the amount you already spent: the Gorge cost/time. Make sense? I think this is going to open up a ton of cool strategies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a good idea, provided you lose the "hypermutated resources" when you die (connected to the cost of the lifeform -- so if you die as a fade you lose 50 res from that pool, if you die as a skulk you don't lose anything). If you can re-evolve for free after you've died, you'll essentially make all the other upgrades obsolete (not to mention all the resource problems that will follow).
Thats pretty cool. So eg. if you're playing as a fade and you are low on HPs and there are no mates around to heal you, you can go back and hide, evolve "back" to gorge for free and then easily heal yourself. I'm a little bit afraid that this could be kinda imba if you don't have to spend the res for the lower lifeforms. Are the lifeforms going to be more expensive in general then or is the Hypermutation upgrade going to be expensive? Or will there be an increasing evolvetime each time you switch your lifeform? I think there have to be some limitations... But yes, indeed, the Hypermutation upgrade opens up a lot of possibilities for alien players.
Doubt this will be a problem. It takes a significant amount of time to heal yourself back to full HP as gorge.
Sounds sweet :) Only problem might be if the limit on upgrades remains (i.e. max 3 upgrades) then it might not really be worth it to get this. I guess if the time and res you have already spent that life gets counted even if you get the upgrade a little later then it could work for quickly changing, but then people might just get the upgrade, change lifeform and then get another upgrade once they have evolved, since keeping hypermutation would just be wasting a slot. Perhaps it should just be a passive upgrade that all aliens get once researched.
But... it does have the potential to become the new focus in that everyone will want to grab it, if not by first chamber choice then at least by second.
I agree that choices are good, but with this in particular it seems to me like it will be one of those upgrades that is very rarely used. I mean how often are you going to evolve it in place of other things like more speed or more armour. Generally you don't plan to be in a situation where you are forced to devolve to a lower lifeform. I could see maybe the com taking it as they might be constantly switching roles but other than that I think most players would favour upgrades that improve their combat effectiveness. Effectively just creating the illusion of choice.
I can think of many uses for it actually (even more if the alien comm was removed). It's a pretty obvious upgrade for a lerk player for example. Go lerk early game, stay alive until you get the hive up and suddenly it only costs you 20 res to go fade. Hot ######!
1) The transitions between early game heavy and late game heavy plans and such get a bit messed up. Like fana said: go lerk early, you're still also getting that early fade. It's kind of heart of RTS games to know when and how to invest your resoucres. With the upgrade it seems a lot more trivial of a task.
2) Some lifeforms are balanced through their lack of mobility. For example in NS1 gorge bbomb is really powerful, but balanced by the immobile gorge. Now imagine gorge that can use skulk form to quickly position itself on vents and such and then proceed to rain down bbomb. Would that result in heavily nerfed bbomb for example?
Think of how Starcraft works. Almost every unit feels somehow overpowered, but they still all turn out to be amazingly well balanced through their weaknesses, which then end ups creating amazingly satisfying gameplay that isn't completely matched by any other game even 14 years later.
---
If those things can be kept under control through some gestation times, small additional res costs and such it's starting to sound really cool.
1) The transitions between early game heavy and late game heavy plans and such get a bit messed up. Like fana said: go lerk early, you're still also getting that early fade. It's kind of heart of RTS games to know when and how to invest your resoucres. With the upgrade it seems a lot more trivial of a task.
2) Some lifeforms are balanced through their lack of mobility. For example in NS1 gorge bbomb is really powerful, but balanced by the immobile gorge. Now imagine gorge that can use skulk form to quickly position itself on vents and such and then proceed to rain down bbomb. Would that result in heavily nerfed bbomb for example?
Think of how Starcraft works. Almost every unit feels somehow overpowered, but they still all turn out to be amazingly well balanced through their weaknesses, which then end ups creating amazingly satisfying gameplay that isn't completely matched by any other game even 14 years later.
---
If those things can be kept under control through some gestation times, small additional res costs and such it's starting to sound really cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't see these concerns becoming issues either, the reason is the fact that you've got a built in disadvantage in the system, and it's a heavy one: you can't get any of the other upgrades. Compare it to NS1: First you'd have to survive as a lerk without celerity, adren, cara or focus and still be useful to the team (damn hard), and then you'd have to survive as fade with only either celerity or cara and still be useful to the team (damn hard in the late game). You're basically sacrificing power for lowered cost and versatility and it isn't as easy of a choice as you make it out to be. I can say right now that I doubt I would use it, but it opens up new tactical possibilites and that's always a good thing.
This brings up the worry that in order to have Hypermutation act in a balanced manner, the other upgrades you forsake would have to offer less of a bonus. This could lessen the visceral "holy ###### I am now powerful" feel given when upgrading.
Edit: Also, from purely a player fun perspective playing what effectively amounts to a nerfed version of each lifeform doesn't seem spectacular. Surely this would add to the need to reduce the power of regular upgrades?
After a little thought it seems as though hypermutation may be good on a strategic level but much less so from an FPS satisfaction perspective.
Edit2: I could see it working well as an upgrade from the Hive instead of a chamber, where the commander could 'gift' a player one evolutions worth of Hypermutation by sacrificing a drifter on them or something. If they decided to go gorge->lerk they would only spend the res/time difference, if they decided to go gorge->skulk they would receive the cost of the gorge back. This way the ability wouldn't be anchoring the power of the other upgrades to the strength of the base lifeform.
It could totally fit in a similar manner to Motion Tracking in NS1 for the marine team. It had a reasonably high cost so you forsook early armor1 and was a gamble because it took a long time to finish upgrading, but by mid-late game you'd definitely be using it. More things for commanders to do++!
Just throwing that out there.
@Bacillus: Resource management is not a consideration for players that are not commanders or gorges, that's simply the nature of the current resource system.
Lerks cost 30 res, fades cost 50. If you go Lerk as it is right now, you usually won't be able to afford going fade until some time after the second hive is up.
There should be no passive evolutions available to everyone. It dilutes the "choices and consequence" mechanic of the one chamber per hive system.
There should be no passive evolutions available to everyone. It dilutes the "choices and consequence" mechanic of the one chamber per hive system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines should not have passive Weapon and Armor upgrades either. That could allow some interesting personal upgrades indeed.
This post proved to be much longer than I expected it to be but remember this is just my general thoughts and ideas.
Also it was really good to hear from you Spixx, its always nice to see how new players feel about the game and their experiences. I'm sure it will help the devs to see things they might need to fix (like a tooltip that says c opens the map)
<b>Marines</b>
<i>nano shield</i>
I did get some comments today about the nano shield, about how powerful it was. At this moment I have not seen any issues with it but I think players must understand how powerful this shield is. Even though it would only prevent 1-2 bites from a skulk hitting a marine it would be really good since aliens might have to go some distance to focus another marine down(range vs melee). But this is just general thoughts, as always, time will tell.
<i>Mines</i>
Won't comment much on mines, I just don't like how it always shows the mine(kinda big) on the floor when you have it selected :).
<i>Turrets</i>
I think Turrets are currently way to strong, in my opinion they should be more of a support that a solid defence. At this moment Fades die within 10 secs in their arc of fire if they don't blink, the damage is so high. Also its near impossible for skulks and lerks to get behind the turrets to attack their weak point.
You can make near impossible to brake wall if you put down 1 armory 1-2 turrets close to the power node(all next together) and have 1 marine(with a shotgun) standing on a turret getting heal from the armory when needed. Even fades will have trouble picking him off.
Even with 2 hives and upgrades(and no marines around) it can be hard for aliens to brake 3+ turrets. Gorges can get picked of when they try to bilebomb.
<b>Aliens</b>
Atm I do get a little feeling that aliens lack mobility, maybe because fades are slower and there are no mc's / teleport between hives anymore. However infestation healing will probably solve this issue by it self(if this is even an issue, random thought)
<i>Lifeforms</i>
Skulk
I have noticed that skulk lack something when they get to their 2nd hive to keep their usefulness, at least get that feeling. Also it can sometimes be painful to go upwards when walking on walls when the wall is not flat. in ns1 this issue was solved, when you pressed shift skulk got sticky to the wall and had easier time to manuver through tight corners. Maybe a good idea to add it again.
My last point on skulk is that it is bit strange how hard it is to soundspot them, if they just walk straight at you - you wont hear a thing if there are minor ambience sound around. Like a free silent upgrade :)
Lerk
After seeing more of the lerk today I'm sure my earlier worries are correct. Lerk does work well in the early game but as soon as shotguns come in he needs to play more passive. He will stay semi useful (mainly gasing when marines are attacking) til marines get lvl 2 weapons. After that he is close to useless.
I do love the cloud idea but lerk was always made to be a long range support. Lerk was one the most awesome classes in ns1 and important asset to the alien team(think about it, 30 res lifeform and really useful all game long, brilliant design). Early game he could pick out stray marines, shotguns and upgrades prevented that. Later in the game he was a big part of braking enemy siege and defensive positions. With his gas ability he forced the marine team to waste tons of resources in med packs to keep the siege alive. Also since it did armor damage he made the marines vounurable(The marine team needed to make time to build base, keep aliens at bay and weld each other). And don't get me started about umbra :)
Now the point is not to bring the old spore ability back but to understand his earlier role. In ns2 there is a issue later on in the game when marines get higher armor that there is near impossible to brake it, it feels like you are fighting heavy armor. This might be fixed with upgrades but I think this will be a issue in the future but time might prove me wrong me wrong. Maybe bilebomb should do armor damage as well?
The lerk does need a buff though, might be a 2nd hive buff or something to make him stronger from the earlier game. Maybe a class specific upgrade. The "gas" turret thing is completely useless atm since the lerk dies within 2 sec of entering it's range.
<i>commander/gorges</i>
I have noticed a big issue with the alien commander. In most games no one likes to command the alien side, when I started asking about it I got most of the time the same answer; it was just so boring. It's understandable that the alien commander isn't as well developed as the marine commander since it didn't exist in ns1. When you are playing marines there are always plenty of things to do, from spamming meds/ammo, building forward structures and upgrades. Also there is so much to do in there that new commanders really cant keep up.
However with the alien commander you really don't have any player interactive abilities, at least not many. You are mainly commanding drifters around to build buildings and upgrading stuff. The alien commander really need abilities such as nano shields for marines(not the same though). Could be from speedboost, invis, umbra, remove marine corsairs or something more creative :) Simply put, abilities that will help the alien team get the upper hand in battles.
Also it would not be a bad idea to work with the gorge/commander interactive play, maybe giving gorges special orders like to spread infestation to this position and secure this location. It needs to be made easier. Gorges should also be awarded plenty of score for building stuff, really lacking gorges in public play atm. Maybe find a way to make gorges more enjoyable to play :) I'm blank there though.
Fades
Finally I saw 2 decent fades today and it was really nice to see how dominant they were :). Even so they didn't stand a chance vs turret and if the marines were few together it was hard for them to pick someone off. One possible problem it might be to hard to prevent fades from escaping since its really hard to block them, this may be balanced though for their lack of mobility in ns2. But time will tell how this will go.
<i>Upgrades</i>
I will mainly talk about the upgrade cost, and once again will will tell you how it was in ns1 :). originally in ns1 upgrades had a cost of 2, because of this cost people didn't really
want to spent 2 res on a skulk since it is always a high risk you die in a battle. At that time skulks with upgrades were a rare sight. Later on there came a patch and upgrades became free, this was a really good change and changed the ns1 gameplay a lot. Right away there was a major difference in play style depending on the chamber that was use since skulk always used upgrades. Cloaked skulks with sensory, tanker if they went dc or more speed/silent skulks with mc.
Now in NS2 I think it will be the same, players wont waste res for upgrades for a skulk, but the solution might not to make it free. Maybe the first upgrade could be free but the next 2 could cost like 1 res and then 2 res. Also maybe it should only be free for skulks or cost more for higher lifeforms.
<b>Overview</b>
<i>Power System</i>
About the idea on the rt's/ip's. I do understand why you would like to keep it as it is but the power system it self promotes defensive play from marines. In ns1 marines always had to keep 1-2 marines(depending on the map and situation) keeping skulks away from the rt's and rebuilding them. Also it was common that 1 marine had a mission to keep the pg's alive and defend base when needed. Power nodes make this task more difficult and creates the need for turrets(depending on the position on the power node). There will probably be a lot of balance changes made later on where the power nodes are placed in maps, if they are to easy to bilebomb/pick out that area becomes near useless for the marines without concentrated effort or turret/mine spamm.
Few extra thoughts:
-Base rushing has always been powerful, even in ns1, power nodes just made it easier
-Needs to be clearer for newer players.
When welders enter the game marines will be way quicker to repair the power nodes compared to the time it takes skulks to take it down.
-Someone made a good point that the aliens need infestation to make their structures work but we need to remember that both team don't have to be alike, what matters is the gameplay.
-This is at least my general feeling of it but it might work out for the best. Would like to see more options on this and more perspective, its a new system and I'm maybe bit sceptical.
<i>Hypermutation</i>
I think this is a good idea and a interesting system. The biggest usefulness I see in it is that aliens can go lerk early game with 1 hive and then go fade afterwards. Maybe when onos is in the game this will play a bigger role since fades will be able to go onos. Really want to see how it works out.
<i>Extra</i>
-I think power nodes should get some kind of a icon so its easier to spot them. Could always be an option in the menu to turn them off.
-The new gorge hit sound is really annoying and loud, I think it should be changed.
-Notice when arms lap went down today I did lose my upgrades(I really loved that) but the upgrades icons didn't disappear. This did cause some confusion in the team til the arms was remade. Maybe it would be enough to put a X over them/make them gray while its down).
-It can be hard to see the marines on the minimap when you are the marine commander since they blend well with the minimap, I think they should be in different color.
-When buildings are under attack I think it would be nice to see them blink red on the minimap making it easier for marines/aliens to see where the threat is.
Again thanks for reading and please comment.
My biggest issue is the cost of the cysts for the gorge. In almost every game I have played in the last couple of days, there has been no alien commander, and the worst thing is we often don't realise this until too late in the game. We need a commander notification on aliens for sure.
Gorges have nothing to do at the moment, res costs are too high to get a run to a res location and place a hydra. If you have a com who is helping, it is easier, but the gorge res for cysts is too high. I always love playing gorge, but this version I'm always waiting for res. How about some sort of system that allows the gorges to build res towers? For a res cost, they summon a drifter from the hive, and it builds a node. With the ability to create res that would really give the gorge a job to do, and a reason to be played.
Actually, I think the whole problem with both the alien commander and the gorge, is that in NS2 they have created 2 roles, which are trying to replace the role of 1 in NS1. With this overlap, new flexibility needs to be created within both roles. At the moment the alien commander is super-gorge, without the fps fun, and the gorge, well lets just say he's been on a diet ;)
Gorges need to become freedom in the ability to build, and need to be able to build more variety of structures, alien commanders need to be able to do something that provides more interaction with their teammates. One of the reasons we don't notice we are without a comm is because the com-player interaction on aliens is non-existent. Allow gorges more freedom to build, and give the commanders more in play activities. I'm kinda stuck for ideas at the moment, on the last point, but gorges allowed to build order a drifter for a res tower, and cheaper cysts would certainly help the gorge player.