QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
You'd need to disable adjacent techpoints. Also there the problem of many techpoints not having a resource node that is covered by the hive infestation by default. The map would have to change, or allow mappers to pre-place cysts.
I think it's worth the effort though. You gain replay-ability with the maps as each starting location means different tactics and different gameplay. It would be quite refreshing.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Also, I think the maps would have to be designed with randomized starting locations in mind. I really don't see this working very well on the current list of maps (rockdown, tram, summit). In particular,
1. Allow mappers to disable randomized locations for one or both teams (so mappers can still create the static starting node maps if they want) 2. Allow mappers to designate which tech nodes can be a starting tech node for both teams (so mappers don't have to worry about teams spawning in ridiculous locations, such as marines in alien start on summit).
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I'll just quote myself from FB (I'm self-important like that :P)<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh don't get me wrong. Variety is good of course, random starting locations only add to this. But here’s the thing, it will only work on maps that are specifically designed for it, I fail to see summit working very well with 100% randomness. As in: Not taking into account the relative location of the other team. However, actually adding the other teams location into this equation kind of negates the randomness as well (predictable locations)
And then there’s early gameplay to consider, where Skulks > marines, possible resulting in rushing 1 min rounds :P
This is a can of worms, but is quite interesting. When not 100% random, of course :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With subshadow's paired starting location idea, this sounds fun -- and a LOT of bang for the buck, given how different gameplay would be in these scenarios vs the tremendous amount of time it takes to make a map.
Maps will get alot bigger eventually and summit wasn't designed with this in mind.
I don't see anything wrong with both teams starting close to eachother. I've tried a few relocations to DC as marines, its very intense for both teams.
Even making it so starting locations are not at adjacent tech points is not a great solution, because that basically means you will know what hive the enemy has just based on your starting location, It would force them to be opposites. If you make it so the starting locations CAN be adjacent you could run into the issue of marines get heliport, and aliens get crossroads, which basically screws the marines over completely, as the aliens have just been given free access to data core, and the marines will not have any way to combat that.
I think the big problem is that maps are not being made to accommodate this feature, and so if this feature is to be put in the game, it needs to go in now, so changes can be done.
I do like the idea of having random starting locations, because the game is going to become too stale and predictable, because no matter how balanced a map is, there will always be a "best" expansion location and so the fight will be for that location.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
I don't think you should apply this new idea to current maps. My feeling is, this will be something that is optional for upcoming maps. I really hope that's the case, since it's hardly fair to force this upon existing maps.
<!--quoteo(post=1882540:date=Oct 29 2011, 12:08 AM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Oct 29 2011, 12:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think you should apply this new idea to current maps. My feeling is, this will be something that is optional for upcoming maps. I really hope that's the case, since it's hardly fair to force this upon existing maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1882539:date=Oct 28 2011, 02:03 PM:name=Jonacrab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jonacrab @ Oct 28 2011, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even making it so starting locations are not at adjacent tech points is not a great solution, because that basically means you will know what hive the enemy has just based on your starting location, It would force them to be opposites.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what. At least it will result in different gameplay. Much better to have 4 options than just the same old boring gameplay over and over.
Of course the best way is to give the mapper the option of how techpoints would be selected so that future mappers can make truly random starting positions.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I really want to see this happen. Random marine and alien starts will add freshness to each new round and keep things interesting. Not sure if a map like summit would work well with this, but I would definitely experiment with it. Maps may need to be redesigned with this feature in mind.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think you should apply this new idea to current maps. My feeling is, this will be something that is optional for upcoming maps. I really hope that's the case, since it's hardly fair to force this upon existing maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wondering how this would work with your map fmpone since it was originally designed for the old NS1 system of random alien hives and static marine start. You'd have to change it a bit from the original to add new tech point rooms. Also while I'm thinking about it, you should make a sweet sig for ns2_veil sort of like this (except with infinitely superior photoshop skills):
Perhaps, it should be a different game mode, or maybe at least give the mappers the choice to tick a box in the editor to make it a random spawn map or not.
Rather than a too simple box tick or game mode, in the editor have an option at each tech point placed in a map that designates if it should be a random start location or not and for which teams. This allows for control over which points are used to keep balance in smaller maps, control over the feel of a map you want based on these points and even allows the option of only selecting one point per team to keep the old mode of locked starting points.
Lots of options are always nice, though I'm for at least random Kharaa starts again on every map otherwise. I'd sure breath life into the virtually one map this game has right now.
I would LOVE to have random start locations back, like the aliens had in NS1, it would really spice up the gameplay. But I can understand the comments about the current maps, perhaps it should be an option when creating a server?
<!--quoteo(post=1882601:date=Oct 29 2011, 10:49 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Oct 29 2011, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->May be we can start by trialing swapping of starting locations (Marines Start <-> Alien Start).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well the fun thing about random start locations is that you don't know where the enemy is at. If you just switch start locations this kinda defeats the purpose..
<!--quoteo(post=1882604:date=Oct 29 2011, 02:30 AM:name=GeneralBowser)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GeneralBowser @ Oct 29 2011, 02:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well the fun thing about random start locations is that you don't know where the enemy is at. If you just switch start locations this kinda defeats the purpose..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it wouldn't necessarily defeat the purpose, just having variety on the same map would give some much appreciated variance in strategy and procedure, even if you know where the aliens are going to begin.
I really dislike a lot of the changes that have been made to the Alien mechanics from NS1 to NS2, but not having a random start location is the one thing I greatly prefer. It seems the most common benefit being suggested is that it will increase the variability of games, which I disagree with based on my experiences in NS1 (as a lowly pub scrub I will admit). In NS1 if your hive was one of the "side" hives you usually went for the "middle" hive for your second simply because it was the safer choice. This meant that in 2/3 of the games, the Marines knew they should focus on locking down this preferred hive, and the Aliens knew they had to prevent this as being forced to use the other side hive put them in an incredibly vulnerable position. Generally, it was only when Aliens spawned in the middle hive first that they had the opportunity to make a strategic choice between the two possible locations for a second hive.
With the static start location for Aliens in NS2, every tech point is a viable second hive location (at least in theory). In my opinion, the fact that every game of summit plays out almost the same is a result of a problems with the map design rather than anything wrong with the base game mechanics. Data Core is simply the best choice as the layout suits Alien defense, Crossroads is a decent second choice, and Heliport is pretty much not viable.
However, I do think it might be possible to create a sort of fusion of the two different mechanics by having variable start positions which are separate from the 3 tech points. Here is a crappy illustration I threw together in paint that demonstrates what I am talking about:
So each team would spawn in one of two possible locations which leads to four different possible map configurations (although only two different "styles" of configurations - same side or opposite side). The unused spawning point would just be an extra room with a resource node (the tech point would not be usable). This still kind of suffers from the problem I described earlier of having a preferred second hive location (for example, I would think that the location furthest from the Marines would be preferred if they spawn on opposite sides), but I believe it will be less drastic since the Aliens still have two possible choices if they get locked out of their first choice.
Comments
But then it'd just be confusing.
I think it's worth the effort though. You gain replay-ability with the maps as each starting location means different tactics and different gameplay. It would be quite refreshing.
1. Allow mappers to disable randomized locations for one or both teams (so mappers can still create the static starting node maps if they want)
2. Allow mappers to designate which tech nodes can be a starting tech node for both teams (so mappers don't have to worry about teams spawning in ridiculous locations, such as marines in alien start on summit).
And then there’s early gameplay to consider, where Skulks > marines, possible resulting in rushing 1 min rounds :P
This is a can of worms, but is quite interesting. When not 100% random, of course :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see anything wrong with both teams starting close to eachother. I've tried a few relocations to DC as marines, its very intense for both teams.
I think the big problem is that maps are not being made to accommodate this feature, and so if this feature is to be put in the game, it needs to go in now, so changes can be done.
I do like the idea of having random starting locations, because the game is going to become too stale and predictable, because no matter how balanced a map is, there will always be a "best" expansion location and so the fight will be for that location.
don't you mean the existing ''map'' ? :p
Would also add a cool scouting dynamic to the early game, which is lacking structure and purpose at the moment.
Ideally mappers should also have some degree of control over it, allowing finer balance, like in sc2 :
<a href="http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Shakuras_Plateau" target="_blank">http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Shakuras_Plateau</a>
So what. At least it will result in different gameplay. Much better to have 4 options than just the same old boring gameplay over and over.
Of course the best way is to give the mapper the option of how techpoints would be selected so that future mappers can make truly random starting positions.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think you should apply this new idea to current maps. My feeling is, this will be something that is optional for upcoming maps. I really hope that's the case, since it's hardly fair to force this upon existing maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wondering how this would work with your map fmpone since it was originally designed for the old NS1 system of random alien hives and static marine start. You'd have to change it a bit from the original to add new tech point rooms. Also while I'm thinking about it, you should make a sweet sig for ns2_veil sort of like this (except with infinitely superior photoshop skills):
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/ns2veil.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/4489/ns2veil.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
Although the balancing could be an issue on smaller maps. Still it's welcomed as it makes things a little less samey.
Lots of options are always nice, though I'm for at least random Kharaa starts again on every map otherwise. I'd sure breath life into the virtually one map this game has right now.
Well the fun thing about random start locations is that you don't know where the enemy is at. If you just switch start locations this kinda defeats the purpose..
This news really makes me want to fire up the editor and get creating :)
Well it wouldn't necessarily defeat the purpose, just having variety on the same map would give some much appreciated variance in strategy and procedure, even if you know where the aliens are going to begin.
With the static start location for Aliens in NS2, every tech point is a viable second hive location (at least in theory). In my opinion, the fact that every game of summit plays out almost the same is a result of a problems with the map design rather than anything wrong with the base game mechanics. Data Core is simply the best choice as the layout suits Alien defense, Crossroads is a decent second choice, and Heliport is pretty much not viable.
However, I do think it might be possible to create a sort of fusion of the two different mechanics by having variable start positions which are separate from the 3 tech points. Here is a crappy illustration I threw together in paint that demonstrates what I am talking about:
<img src="http://i40.tinypic.com/28hzbpy.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
So each team would spawn in one of two possible locations which leads to four different possible map configurations (although only two different "styles" of configurations - same side or opposite side). The unused spawning point would just be an extra room with a resource node (the tech point would not be usable). This still kind of suffers from the problem I described earlier of having a preferred second hive location (for example, I would think that the location furthest from the Marines would be preferred if they spawn on opposite sides), but I believe it will be less drastic since the Aliens still have two possible choices if they get locked out of their first choice.