My Gripes With This Game
arjungita
Join Date: 2002-12-17 Member: 10928Members
Join Date: 2002-12-17 Member: 10928Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Siege, Arms Labs, Carapace</div> I'll keep my Gripes to 3 Main things:
Siege
Arms Labs
Carapace
1. First Siege.
It makes aliens play a preventative game, they have to actively prevent the marines from getting seige down. This is actually pretty damn hard to stop with good marines...and once siege is built properly, there's no defense beginning to mid game without fades. Here's a typical marine build:
Phase gate. 8 marines come through and setup defensive positions.
3 marines build a turret factory in 10 seconds
5 Aliens rush, 4 marines die. 4 Marines phase back
4 marines build 3 turrets in 30 seconds
Now the marines have a forward base with turrets and 8 defending marines. Pretty damn hard to kill that off if they have good positions.
Siege upgrade. Aliens continuously throw themselves at the marines and the turret factory. Marines weld it.
Marines build 2 siege turrets and everything in 100 feet dies.
Now what can the aliens do? With good turret placement and a couple marines, skulks aren't going to take down the Turret factory, plus the fact that Siege Turrets have a TON of health, so forget attacking them. Defensive towers drop like flies, and gorges can't heal towers as they die from blasts. So, basically, without Fades any alien structures are toast. And on a lot of smaller maps like Caged and Nancy, this is just BRUTAL. Its a sickening feeling of helplessness when you are on the alien team.
In addition, Hives are also toast, since if 2 seiges go up, its almost impossible to take out the siege before the hive dies. I see marines win all the time without ever putting one bullet in a hive or even seeing it, tell me that's not lame. Some servers even make rules that siege can't be used offensively, or without marines concurrently attacking....I just don't see why admins have to enforce balancing rules that the game doesn't.
<b>Solution</b>
Make siege not effect Hives. 3 Marines with lmgs can take out the hive quick enough, and that lends itself to teamwork and its not such a cheesy way to win. I doubt many alien players will feel they lost squarly when their hive gets blown up by 2 seige cannons in 15 seconds, but shoot it, nade it, or weld it and I think that brings a lot back to fun and fairness of the game. Sure, use siege to kill all the defense but lets kill the hives the old fashioned way.
2. Arms Labs vs. Carapace
Aliens can build 3 Defense towers early game giving them horrendous protection against LMGS. Cost? 42 resources total and about 45 seconds of build time. Arms Labs cost 50 resources to build, 20 for the first armor upgrade allowing for 3 bites instead of 2 to die, then 60 for level 2 weapon damage JUST TO GET ON EVEN GROUND.
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/ns-stats.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/ns-stats.htm</a>
Look at the chart, level 1 damage upgrade is pretty much worthless, 16 vs. 19 lmg rounds and 7 vs. 9 pistol rounds to down a carapace 3 skulk. That means with level 1 damage a marine would have to land more than 50% of his rounds to kill 2 attacking skulks. Ever fight 2 good skulks as a marine? You are toast. 2 Skulks against 2 level 1 marines might seem fair, except for when you factor in the problems with target acquisition i.e. skulks jumping all over the place and each marine staying on his own target. Now having to land 16 rounds on each skulk gets pretty tough.
Ok ok, but enough about killing skulks, one great marine in a hall can waste skulk after skulk, problem being 90 percent of fights are not under such optimal conditions. Lerks are even worse, 30 bullets needed to kill one, and their bite is just as bad as a skulk. In a vent a lerk can be incredibly hard to take down with any healing near it.
So by the numbers, for comparable damage/armor we have:
Aliens: 42 resources
Marines: 50+20+20+40= 130 resources
<b>Solution</b> Lower the arms lab cost to 40 and the first upgrade level to 15 res. Its not a huge difference, but 50 res for an arms lab makes most commanders cringe, the biggest problem is just getting one down and I think this would be encouraging and definately not unbalancing.
Adjusted Cost: Marines: 40+15+15+40= 110 Resources just fyi
Siege
Arms Labs
Carapace
1. First Siege.
It makes aliens play a preventative game, they have to actively prevent the marines from getting seige down. This is actually pretty damn hard to stop with good marines...and once siege is built properly, there's no defense beginning to mid game without fades. Here's a typical marine build:
Phase gate. 8 marines come through and setup defensive positions.
3 marines build a turret factory in 10 seconds
5 Aliens rush, 4 marines die. 4 Marines phase back
4 marines build 3 turrets in 30 seconds
Now the marines have a forward base with turrets and 8 defending marines. Pretty damn hard to kill that off if they have good positions.
Siege upgrade. Aliens continuously throw themselves at the marines and the turret factory. Marines weld it.
Marines build 2 siege turrets and everything in 100 feet dies.
Now what can the aliens do? With good turret placement and a couple marines, skulks aren't going to take down the Turret factory, plus the fact that Siege Turrets have a TON of health, so forget attacking them. Defensive towers drop like flies, and gorges can't heal towers as they die from blasts. So, basically, without Fades any alien structures are toast. And on a lot of smaller maps like Caged and Nancy, this is just BRUTAL. Its a sickening feeling of helplessness when you are on the alien team.
In addition, Hives are also toast, since if 2 seiges go up, its almost impossible to take out the siege before the hive dies. I see marines win all the time without ever putting one bullet in a hive or even seeing it, tell me that's not lame. Some servers even make rules that siege can't be used offensively, or without marines concurrently attacking....I just don't see why admins have to enforce balancing rules that the game doesn't.
<b>Solution</b>
Make siege not effect Hives. 3 Marines with lmgs can take out the hive quick enough, and that lends itself to teamwork and its not such a cheesy way to win. I doubt many alien players will feel they lost squarly when their hive gets blown up by 2 seige cannons in 15 seconds, but shoot it, nade it, or weld it and I think that brings a lot back to fun and fairness of the game. Sure, use siege to kill all the defense but lets kill the hives the old fashioned way.
2. Arms Labs vs. Carapace
Aliens can build 3 Defense towers early game giving them horrendous protection against LMGS. Cost? 42 resources total and about 45 seconds of build time. Arms Labs cost 50 resources to build, 20 for the first armor upgrade allowing for 3 bites instead of 2 to die, then 60 for level 2 weapon damage JUST TO GET ON EVEN GROUND.
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/ns-stats.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/ns-stats.htm</a>
Look at the chart, level 1 damage upgrade is pretty much worthless, 16 vs. 19 lmg rounds and 7 vs. 9 pistol rounds to down a carapace 3 skulk. That means with level 1 damage a marine would have to land more than 50% of his rounds to kill 2 attacking skulks. Ever fight 2 good skulks as a marine? You are toast. 2 Skulks against 2 level 1 marines might seem fair, except for when you factor in the problems with target acquisition i.e. skulks jumping all over the place and each marine staying on his own target. Now having to land 16 rounds on each skulk gets pretty tough.
Ok ok, but enough about killing skulks, one great marine in a hall can waste skulk after skulk, problem being 90 percent of fights are not under such optimal conditions. Lerks are even worse, 30 bullets needed to kill one, and their bite is just as bad as a skulk. In a vent a lerk can be incredibly hard to take down with any healing near it.
So by the numbers, for comparable damage/armor we have:
Aliens: 42 resources
Marines: 50+20+20+40= 130 resources
<b>Solution</b> Lower the arms lab cost to 40 and the first upgrade level to 15 res. Its not a huge difference, but 50 res for an arms lab makes most commanders cringe, the biggest problem is just getting one down and I think this would be encouraging and definately not unbalancing.
Adjusted Cost: Marines: 40+15+15+40= 110 Resources just fyi
Comments
the siege is there, deal with it, it aint changing (it has been discused/flamed/whined about in around 50 threads)
also this belongs in the ideas forum
Yes perhaps the Suggestions forum would be good, but I want to hear general discussion on the topic, before I revise it and post as a suggestion.
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
How bout siege attacks stationary objects(camping skuls?)
also would maki it imposible to kill (cant stand still to attack it or the TF ;D)
meh, the siege is balanced, yes it is up to the aliens t stop the marines from setting it up, but well thats their job
you start off with the assumption that they manage to get a PG up, well shame on the aliens for letting them
The aliens game is containment, they take MUCH longer to get to the point where they have powered up troops then marines do (b/c they are better)
most of the alien game is:
1) hold them in their base (don't use rushes just camp and eat any fools who leave)
2) don't let them get up PG/TF/what have you
THEY ARE NOT CHEAP AT ALL!
And while an alien getting carapace is effective early on against marine's weapons,
don't you think you list a good advantage the aliens have over marines?
For example, while marines can have a super seige which is a very powerful weapon, aliens get a carapace upgrade that nearly doubles their health right off the bat.
Don't you think that is some sort of a counter...?
You need to play the game a bit more before making posts like these.
Aliens: 42 resources<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...and 2 more resources...and 2 more...2 more...
It adds up. The arms lab upgrades are free and instantaneous to all marines once researched, and it's there every time they spawn.
One-time cost vs. micro-payments. The return-on-investment calculations are left as an exercise for the reader.
The only idea I can think of is that the siege turrent needs to be manually fired. Leave everything else alone, but the marines have to walk up and push the use key to fire it. Thats it. It can still rip things apart like it currently does, but it's not automated. It will still auto aim at things, same cost, damage, etc, but all of you have to do is push the use key. It's not a drastic change, but I think it would balance them out a little. Face it. There are some instances where it is IMPOSSIBLE to take out sieges, especially if all you have are skulks. I know the popular argument around here is "yuo should not let tehm get it up in teh fist plaece!!!1" but you cannot be at all places at once, and sometimes, there are just situations where the marines clearly have a superior position.
First of all, they should not be ABLE to set up STs before the Kharaa secure another hive. Natural Selection is still an RTS, and one of the golden rules is that whoever moves up the tech tree the fastest wins. Second, it's not all that difficult to take out STs. The only time our team's ever failed to is when we had too many newbies. Third, if it's so hard to take down a forward outpost because there are so many marines there then attack their main base or some other key outpost. You'll force the commander to divert resources and manpower to the new location. Play your cards right and you can completely remove the defenses from the ST outpost. STs don't need to be nerfed; it's a matter of learning to deal with them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Siege Turrets have a TON of health, so forget attacking them<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they don't. Sorry. Only about twice as much as a normal turret, if even that. It'll take about half the attack runs to take out an ST than the TF. That applies to Fades and Skulks (I'm talking about skilled melee Fades, btw)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens can build 3 Defense towers early game giving them horrendous protection against LMGS<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That means with level 1 damage a marine would have to land more than 50% of his rounds to kill 2 attacking skulks. Ever fight 2 good skulks as a marine? You are toast. 2 Skulks against 2 level 1 marines might seem fair<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's your problem, right there. You seem to believe that a marine SHOULD be able to take on two skulks. If the game is being played properly, a skulk should be able to take on two marines! Further, carapace does NOT give such incredible protection; it only doubles a skulk's combat lifespan and believe me in the hands of a bad player that's NOT much. Carapace just gives skulks more "endurance" in a melee. But let me tell you, a carapaced skulk trying to take on a pack of three or four reasonably skilled LMG\LAs who are in good positions doesn't have a hope in hell. And those are exactly the terms you're supposed to be fighting skulks on. In packs.
next up, yes it is ture, the aliens realy need to make sure that that siege dosn't go up
most times a see a siege go up next to my hive it is generaly (though not always) b/c NO ONE listens to the cries of "Siege comming up out side XXX HIVE get there NOW!!"
look, personaly I think that if the marines have managed to set up a foward base next to a hive and the aliens have left them alon enugh that they still have the RPs to set up a siege, the aliens usualy deserver it (posibly they sucked, possibly marines did something right, or posibly both teams were evenly matched and the marines just managed to get the upper hand)
oh, and if the marines ever get to just sit back THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG b/c that base should be under constant assault by aliens
Siege - I feel that the range should be shortened somewhat OR the HP cut in half OR the cost doubled OR require a marine to manually laser-paint targets OR have lower damage.
Arms lab - as mentioned, once upgrade is done, you don't ever have to pay for it again no matter how many marines. Upgrades are WELL worth the cost currently.
Carapace could scale better (on both ends depending on the alien class) but isn't terribly over effective.
and you have to remember how a un-carpaced skulk early on is so useless when put up against a skilled marine un-upgraded... they drop like flies to skulks like that. carpace is more of a balancing factor at least early on.. it gives skulks more of a chance, and really.. marines are meant to rely more on teammates and surrounding structure support than aliens, how could aliens take down these early siege/phase structures being built if they didnt have at least some extra bullet-taking ability.
taking down phases and/or sieges too is just a case of keeping eyes open, usually skulks manage to cut down the number of marines leaving base in a group.. its just a case of killing this group before they get a phase up, not always an easy task indeed, but thats how it should be, marines are at a disadvantage when 2 hives go up , the only way to take back the advantage or preserve it is to siege a hive at least at the early stage.
hmm blah
How bout siege attacks stationary objects(camping skuls?)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's one **obscenity** dead skulk
lol
I'm surprised Sieges dont attack Onos', they are huge enough to be considered as a building..HELL, Onos are a moving building lol
This might sound stupid but when they have a level 3 armor on them, they can take more damage. Now remember, alien play the game of the mind (at least for the beginning of the game). You do not charge at 2-3 marines who have their crosshair pointed at you and pray for them to miss. Thats stupid, and only works if you're lucky.
You place yourself in corners or vents so you have cover, then you make sure the marines know you're there after parasiting most of them. After you parasited them, you flash in and out of your cover plus chuckling to draw the marine fire. REMEMBER they have only 50 bullets a clip. when you think they only have about 20 bullets left, then you charge them (zig-zagly that is...if thats a word.)
Caraplaced skulks = less skulk death. You can play that mind trick more since you can take more hits and then go back to heal. Less death means, less waiting for respawn. Which results in less chance marines can build right outside of your hive because you were waiting to respawn.
If there were 3 dt and no ot right in the hive and marines are building outside, I can easily run out, eat one marine, come back and heal fully in 4 seconds, then go back out to eat another.
Aliens are playing a game of time. Making two hives without any defense = open siege or marine fire. Unless the whole team are gorgs..which I doubt <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->, there is no way you can have enought fades right after the second hive is up. Thats why you should build defensives pretty early to make sure your skulks to stay alive.
As for the arms labs... The weapon upgrade includes turrents. If a unarmored skulk is going against a unupgraded turrent 1on1 (that is he dont want to get the tf for some reason) he can get it to go down without dying if he kept moving. If an unarmored skulk is going against a level 1 upgrade turrent, in my experience I'd die in 2-4 hits as a unarmored skulk, 4-6 if I had caraplace. Couple that with just one marine watching a post...you might find it surpisingly effective.
What usually happens is this...
Skulk patrol is running about, spots a phase gate going up and a marine building while another covers. Skulk kills one marine but dies to the other (lets say all 3 players are of average skill). Skulk then teamsays, "phase gate going up near so and so". By the time the skulk finishes his sentence, the phase gate is finished and sending in the strike force. Of course, this doesn't work if the marine team doesn't have any teamwork, and the aliens will probably win anyways.
Phase gates are the only thing I would consider overpowered
lets take a look at some advantages here
1. costs 25RP, a small investment for big impact
2. 15 sec build time for a single marine, this experimental atomic powered piece of work takes as much time to set up as a little sentry gun.
3. 3rd strongest marine structure, (CC and RT are the only ones with more life), with 3500 hitpoints to take punishment, while the average marine structure has slightly over 2000. Highly durable for a metal pad with a fragile looking screen in the teleport zone.
4. Can be placed anywhere on the map once the observatory is completed, suddenly that once considered useless rambo behind enemy lines is now your key to sending the entire team behind the defenses and easily wasting the hive
5. difficult to hit, being low to the ground means its hard to hide behind it if youre anything bigger than a lerk, also there's the risk of accidently stepping on the warp pad and being whisked away to the marine spawn where three heavy marines just got suited up and eager for blood
And what disadvantages are there? practically none if the commander isn't a dimwit, sure, the aliens can use it as a backdoor, but they're rarely left standing, and most competent comm's will have several turrets guarding them
Only problem with phase is the alien team spawn way too slow compare to the marine team. With the phase gate, the Marine literally are spawning outside the alien hive. But I don't think this is too unbalanceing because the longer spawn time adds depth in the game, and requires more inteligent ways to deal with the marines.
Excuse the incredably flippant nature of this comment, but I think it would be more accuratly put "a def towered alien team in the beginning helps if the skulks DO NOT know what they're doing." The basic nature of a skulk is to survive by not getting shot, rather than taking shots. Yeah, even the best skulk needs health, and more is always better, but if your skulks know what they're doing, you'll hold until the second hive is building, then defense chambers go up. I don't mean to say that's the only way to successfully build, but it is the optimal way, if you can safely pull it off.
I'd also agree that saying 3 D chambers only costs 42 is off... it costs 42 to build, 13 to go gorge, a variable amount lost due to not getting two nozzles instead (I'm reffering to the early game, when two nozzles shouldn't be much trouble), and then 2 x each player, say an average of 6. That's 67 right there, plus lost income. That's still cheaper than the first marine upgrade, but two dead skulks and you're now at 71, over the marines 50+20.
This brings something to mind
What's the diff between Lvl1-3 Carapace?
I get a skulk, get lvl1 cara and it's 30AP
Lvl2 - 30AP
Lvl3 - 30AP
and same with fades and any other class. Is that normal?
I would figure this:
Lvl1 - 20AP
Lvl2 - 25AP
Lvl3 - 30AP
(For <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->s of course)
Maybe there's some pseudoscientific way to justify it too! (It's not like there's a lot of science behind blink's existence.)
I guess I'm weird, but none of those arguments seem to apply to me.
Trying to judge if the game is balanced by looking at public play, doesnt WORK.
You have to look at clanplay, to see if the game is balanced.
I've played over 15 Practice and Clanbase games, so I'm pretty certain that i'm on of the most experienced players here, and my clan plays practice games and CB almost everyday.
We are hooked on this game, and we're pretty damn good at it right now. So far we havn't lost a single round, even though some games have been pretty close.
Changing the cost of armslab would not be a good thing. Carapace is hard as it is to get right now, and marines already have the upper hand during the first ten minutes (until aliens get lv 3 carapace)
Right now aliens are forced to go 1 res tower and the 3 def chambers to stand a chance versus good marines. LMG marines eat unupgraded skulks for breakfast. When marines get armslab and lv 1 armor and LMG upgrade, you better start making the second hive, otherwise you will run into trouble.
Seige is not to cheap, and takes time to build, contrary to what you are saying. Sure, siege is powerful, but in clangames it's not always the most efficent way to take out a hive, with good marines, it's possible, if not easier to rush in with just LMG and setup a phasegate to keep reinforcements comming.
Thing is, you can't say that the game is balanced from the experience you have had from public play.
The only think I would like to see changed is the skulks gettings a slight upgrade, so they can take maybe 10 or 11 LMG bullets without carapace.
I would also like cloaking and other sensory upgrades to be improved, they are worthless right now, and never worth taking before you get a third hive.
I can't tell you how many times I have got in the vent outside of Fusion Reactor on ns_tanith, alone, built a factory, 3 sentries, and 2 sieges. I always make sure to get each Siege to 90% before I complete one. That way they all come on at once, and the Aliens don't know what hit them. The Fades can't get into the vent, and the Skulks rush in 1 by 1 and get eaten by the turrets. Yes, the Aliens need to play a preventative game, but it shouldn't mean certain death if you make one mistake.
If you made the Sieges unable to target Hives directly (splash damage is fine) it would still keep the game balanced, while preventing some of the down right awful strats that are starting to circulate around.
It is now common place to see Marines rush the Alien hive (commanders can hear the hive on their screen so no matter what Marines know where the Alien hive is) and Siege it as the first act of the game. Alien's can't do a whole lot about it. Since Marines can spawn 2 at a time with 2 spawns, and Aliens one at a time, in any sort of sustained engagement early in the game Aliens will always be down men. If you have players of equal skill, the Marines are going to win these battles if they have superior numbers, which is inevitable given the previously mentioned spawn thing. If you don't allow Sieges to target Hives, not only will it help to eliminate rambo vent campers, but it will also give Aliens a greater chance in early game Marine rushes.
Anyone who has seen a talented team of Marines do an early game Siege rush knows that it is nearly unstoppable.
I also think Phase gates should cost 25 or 30 to help stop early game rushes, but that is another story for another thread. =)
I believe the thread's topic is about how sieges are over powered. I'm merely stating some ways to stop the marines from doing a phase/siege rush. I not saying you should build 3 def tower right in beginning. Actually you should build some resource towers first.
I also never said you should take shots as a skulk, please read my post again. You draw the marine fire, bait them, or wait for them to reload. Of course you're bound to get hit once or twice. Thats where getting armor upgrade helps. This ambush thing don't work that well once we know the map better and better. When marines gets smarter, they'll know all the hiding spots. Not to mention motion sensing. Think of how annoying it is for a marine when a skulks runs pass your view and keeps parasiting you. Even the more seasoned marine will be tempted to blast the hell out of that skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you'll hold until the second hive is building, then defense chambers go up. I don't mean to say that's the only way to successfully build, but it is the optimal way, if you can safely pull it off.
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Your assumption on that being the optimal way is that the marine team are bunch of idiots, whom dont realize they need two hives or haven't heard of alien spawn camping. I think many of you who do command and use the phase gate rush realize how easy it is to win when a hive has nothing inside...unless the marines cant aim for beans.
Ok so if you got a couple of offensive towers up somewhere. 2-3 marines can clear 3 ot in less than two minutes without some defensive towers nearby or gorg healing. Oh guess what, if theres a gorg healing, he'll be dead because thats what the marines will shoot first.
Do you know how long it takes for you to get enought resources for a hive when theres only one gorg? Compare that with the time it takes for one marine to get a phase gate up... Ok so you go on and defend the hive by yourself your first hive is gone already. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Of course the skulks can keep the marines at bay in their base, but theres bound to be one rambo who can go around silently and build a phase gate somewhere near a hive in less than 30 seconds.
Again, I didn't say one should build a defensive tower as the first building, but getting 3 towers up before you save for a hive helps your skulks to stay alive and preventing the annoying marine phase rush. As long as they keep wasting their time at your main, the gorges have time to save for the hive. Even if the marines have stationed themselve at the other two hives, there is nothing like an organized skulk/lerk rush for a hive.
Oh and the comment by duff-man, you should play skulks more often <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. A 3x carapaced skulk is twice the skulk as it used to be <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. It takes a lot more to kill it than a normal skulk. Well at least I find myself dying a lot less when I got the armor upgrade(that is, before second hive).
One more thing I forget to mention, the one major thing thats making marines win with the phase rush is the spawn rate of the aliens. Generally you don't want your skulks to die a lot...sounds stupid but not many people get it. And if there are marines right outside of your hive, you better find a way to heal your skulks much faster than 8 hp a tic.
Trying to judge if the game is balanced by looking at public play, doesnt WORK.
You have to look at clanplay, to see if the game is balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Balancing a game strictly based on clan play is a great way to ruin any game.
How many NS players are in a clan? I'm guessing less than 50%, probably a LOT less. Now, that's 50% of your players you have just alienated. Now, of those clan players, how much NS do they play outside of clan matches? I'm guessing at a vast majority.
All things considered, I'd say maybe 5% or less of games out there are going to be clan games. That's 95% of the games out there you have just ignored.
Phase gate. 8 marines come through and setup defensive positions.
3 marines build a turret factory in 10 seconds
5 Aliens rush, 4 marines die. 4 Marines phase back
4 marines build 3 turrets in 30 seconds
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I thank you for your thoughful analysis. Open discussion is always interesting, and flamers are lamers. However, your premise as quoted above is based on a degree of marine cooperation that is going to be fatel to aliens whether seige cannons exist or not. Eight marines working together like this are going to smoke you with spawn gear alone.
I would also observe for the benefit of alien players that fear the seige:
To place a Seige cannon, the marines must:
(1) get to the location
(2) build a turret factory
(3) upgrade the turret factory
(4) build the cannon
This is very expensive in terms of resources, and the factory and cannon must be protected until the gun opens up. If the marines successfully pull this off, the result is a dead hive. On the other hand, the aliens still have 2 other hive locations, and can therefore gestate to fades, unless the marines <i>do it all again</i> to seige a second hive.
Give the marines some credit. If they can get seige cannons up in the face of everything the aliens do to prevent it, then the marines deserve their win.