Multi-level maps
thefonz
Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Can they be brought/fit into NS2?</div>I have never understood exactly why NS1/2 has been limited to single level maps. Mind you, I understand the reasons, just not why a solution has never been discussed/implemented.
My understanding of the basic problem:
The commander's top down view makes it impossible to interact with lower levels. Comms can't drop structures, ect, on to lower floors. They can only see the top most level.
From my understanding of the comm's view, many props and walls do not render so that the commander has an unobstructed view.
So I ask you, why has the following SIMPLE solution to the multi-level map problem not been at least experimented with? (AFAIK)
Have mappers divide their maps with horizontal "view planes", lets call them 'levels'. This way when a certain view plane (plane 'n') is selected, all geometry (walls, floors, ceilings, props, players) is removed from view and interaction. Also, when at that certain view plane 'n', all geometry below the next lower view plane (plane 'n-1') is also excluded. When a commander needs to see an upper or lower floor they can change view levels.
An improvement on this concept would be to use 'view boxes' that overlap slightly. This is to cover tricky areas like stairs. View planes are limited because a marine standing on say step 4 of a stair case may not be visible at the current view plane, but if he moves up to step 5 he is visible. Overlapping view boxes would allow the stairs to be visible from two views, the upper and lower. this would make it easier on commanders.
Of course, this post does not address the challenges of team gameplay (espicially with new players) on multi level maps.
comm: go to the server room!
new player: where's that?
comm: below data core!
new player: huh?
PS. This turned into more of an idea than a question/discussion. Phase it to I&S if need be.
My understanding of the basic problem:
The commander's top down view makes it impossible to interact with lower levels. Comms can't drop structures, ect, on to lower floors. They can only see the top most level.
From my understanding of the comm's view, many props and walls do not render so that the commander has an unobstructed view.
So I ask you, why has the following SIMPLE solution to the multi-level map problem not been at least experimented with? (AFAIK)
Have mappers divide their maps with horizontal "view planes", lets call them 'levels'. This way when a certain view plane (plane 'n') is selected, all geometry (walls, floors, ceilings, props, players) is removed from view and interaction. Also, when at that certain view plane 'n', all geometry below the next lower view plane (plane 'n-1') is also excluded. When a commander needs to see an upper or lower floor they can change view levels.
An improvement on this concept would be to use 'view boxes' that overlap slightly. This is to cover tricky areas like stairs. View planes are limited because a marine standing on say step 4 of a stair case may not be visible at the current view plane, but if he moves up to step 5 he is visible. Overlapping view boxes would allow the stairs to be visible from two views, the upper and lower. this would make it easier on commanders.
Of course, this post does not address the challenges of team gameplay (espicially with new players) on multi level maps.
comm: go to the server room!
new player: where's that?
comm: below data core!
new player: huh?
PS. This turned into more of an idea than a question/discussion. Phase it to I&S if need be.
Comments
--------------------------------------------- plane n=0 (top, above everything) at this level, the comm sees everything between planes n = 0 and n = 1
The upper most floor of the map is here
--------------------------------------------- plane n = 1 at this level the comm sees the second highest floor, anything between planes n=1 and n=2
The second highest floor
--------------------------------------------- plane n=2.... you get the idea
....
.... this can go on for many levels, skyscraper level anyone?
....
....
--------------------------------------------- plane n = n-1
The bottom most floor
--------------------------------------------- plane n = n This plane is below everything in the level.
0 = always hidden, 1 is show on level 1, 2 on level 2, etc.
This may be changed at a later date.
This may be changed at a later date.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Such a thoughtful post. It's very clear you actually read the original post before posting. Thanks for adding so much to the discussion.
I think the best that could be done is a single axis tilt. This is what you get in most of your fast-paced RTS games (C&C + SC etc). These same games usually have only 1 layer of map with aerial units and possibly some subterranean units. With such a simple fixed tilt axis it is still difficult to see overlapping levels. Even many 3rd person RPGs have very limited level over level capabilities, even often with a better dynamic camera system.
I guess it's just a hairy development problem to try to solve. There's a few good ideas here, but I just don't quite see the necessity of it in NS2 1.0 release.
Commanders could also be able to use two keyboard keys as "view upper floor" and "view lower floor" for fast swapping.
This would allow the possibility of elevators (open roof panels for skulks to crawl through) as well as creating more confined spaces for fighting in. Would create some interesting gameplay mechanics and opportunities.
I agree that it would be a later stage development, it would work nicely paired with outdoor environments as well... could end up fighting in a city-like environment then.
The areas and rooms could be grouped and designated as being on a certain game level, not sure how it'd be accomplished since i've never played around with the level editor.
Vertical transitions are terrible for gameplay, in most FPS games anyway.
Doesn't really matter if it's a staircase, an elevator, or a ladder, they never work very well, and almost always produce horrible chokepoints and general weak areas in a map design.
Height transitions only really work if they're quite gradual or over short vertical distances, and if they're that gradual, why bother having them be multi level? Just build one part of the level a little higher than the rest, which NS2 does have already.
I'd like to see this, but included in to a new game mode so there's little playing field on a level but it's spread across multiple levels for something similar to a domination style gameplay.. but I'm off on a tangent now.
just stick with the current height difference between sections with the odd catwalk that goes overhead, dont really see it as adding much expect un-needed complexity to commanding.
As for it causing choke-points? you get those in 2D maps, you solve that with more routes though like usual I know it's not quite the same but it solves most of the problem. Though I personally have no problem with a the new types of ambushes the leftover levels problem would allow.
And even if this isn't done, damn it, I want to be able to zoom on our current 2D maps at least
Say you add eight or so staircases on tram, each one is still a horrible chokepoint, and suddenly the map is twice as convoluted and hard to follow, and any semblamnce of strategic control has gone out the window because there are so many routes to any given location.
Level over level is a bad idea in any FPS game which doesn't use quake 3 style hyper-mobile characters, and things like teleporters and bouce pads and really fast elevators and the like.
Quoting BarerRudeROC : "I really like how you've incorporated levels and platforms into the map without obscuring the commanders view."
Download in sig>>>
Either way I still disagree, going up a level isn't much different from turning a corner as far as a choke-point goes. One alternate route fixes any one way up to an area choke-point issues, that's all I proposed to that. I'm not sure why you think you need some crazy amount to make them acceptable. I get it though you don't like the idea and that's why I said it'd be nice as an option for those who do. Thus, more likely as a mod.
@Evil_bob
I like your map, though a bit of a shameless plug eh? :p I hope in-game map downloading and cycles is a feature soon though, otherwise it's unlikely to see much full use til then like the rest of the not-summits. It's sad they dont see much use though right now, it's a good map but I'm thoroughly sick of summit like it's de_dust at this point.
I like your map, though a bit of a shameless plug eh? :p I hope in-game map downloading and cycles is a feature soon though, otherwise it's unlikely to see much full use til then like the rest of the not-summits. It's sad they dont see much use though right now, it's a good map but I'm thoroughly sick of summit like it's de_dust at this point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Promoting like I can, I could of been more hardcore about it, I did choose a relevant subject :p Seeing no servers playing it is disappointing as I have been working literally day and night for the past month to get it ready for 187 and NS2HD's tournament and have been working on creating a map for NS2 since UWE released the editor. It might not seam as so on first looks because it is simpler in detail compared to UWE's maps and Summit, this is because I focused on gameplay ideas and performance before anything else. I am sure once people play it they will feel it. I guess I gotta give people time and wait till in-game downloading like you say...
i like the idea of multiple level maps as it is fun from a fps stand point. i suppose it doesn't make a whole lot of difference from an rts standpoint, but the idea above could be implemented to make it work or it could be as simple as the commander pressing a button to switch between levels.
i like the idea of multiple level maps as it is fun from a fps stand point. i suppose it doesn't make a whole lot of difference from an rts standpoint, but the idea above could be implemented to make it work or it could be as simple as the commander pressing a button to switch between levels.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly though, how would that make sense in any pratical way. Let's say I am commander #1, I can't control something that is 10 feet above me but commander #2 can? All thought it seems like a solution to the problem but now you are talking about adding two commanders controling the battlefield which seems a little OP in general unless you were to counter-act it somehow on the aliens side. Which again would just add more complexitiy to the game design by having 2 commanders where it is not needed.
I think just having one commander having access to multiple levels makes more sense and puts more importances on the commanders roles as a team leader. Would be interesting to see implented in the game, but you would have to ask your self, is this really nescary to make for better gameplay?
Excuse my poor grammer/spelling just typing out of my ass right now :)
I think just having one commander having access to multiple levels makes more sense and puts more importances on the commanders roles as a team leader. Would be interesting to see implented in the game, but you would have to ask your self, is this really nescary to make for better gameplay?
Excuse my poor grammer/spelling just typing out of my ass right now :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
how is having two commanders OP? its possible as the game is now. besides, one more commander means one less soldier on the field. anyway, the aliens have commanders too. they'd have to have another commander if they wanted to control territory on another level.
how is it practical that a commander can only control one level at a time? i don't know. how is it possible that a gorge can vomit plant like lifeforms larger than its head? how can a commander drop health and ammo packs out of thin air? this isn't about realism. it's about the gameplay. obviously there is an interest in multi-level maps. this was just a suggestion i had. not the end all be all solution.
how is it practical that a commander can only control one level at a time? i don't know. how is it possible that a gorge can vomit plant like lifeforms larger than its head? how can a commander drop health and ammo packs out of thin air? this isn't about realism. it's about the gameplay. obviously there is an interest in multi-level maps. this was just a suggestion i had. not the end all be all solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IDK where I was going with 2 commanders being OP, to me it just means that the commanders role is now split in half, making it easier to micro/marco the entire battlefield. To me that is an advantage that would not have been there before, I guess not OP, just an added benefit that would need to be balanced accordingly.
I think the main issue to me (what is practical) is that any map designer will now have to design around having 2 commanders. What if the second floor is small and does not play that major of a roll in game play? That means it would not be worth while to spend the resources for a 2nd commander (or if you do then the marines would have an advantage since the alien commander would not have access to that floor), you would rather have one commander who has access to that second floor. I guess a multi-level in the sense of having 2 commanders, you would be forced to always put a hive on that floor for that mechanic to work. See what I am getting at? Adding that mechanic would in-turn add more complexity to the level design and would leave less possibilities for multi-level maps. I believe there would be a better alternate solution to the issue at hand, such as one commander having access to any floor on the map (which in it's own is complex, but more practical).
i suppose you could just ignore the other level if it is undesirable. but then that boasts the question: why is there another level if that level is of no use. this wouldn't be the fault of the game mechanics no matter what the mechanics are. this is just bad map design.
i don't see how having a commander for each level leaves less possibility. there isn't a rule saying you have to inhabit every piece of territory or put a hive/command chair at every point. but still, i'm not saying it's the best idea. i enjoy the levels in ns2 as of now, but i do think it would be cool to somehow have maps with more levels. i remember a playing a map or two from ns that had quite a bit of verticality. i thought they had multiple levels in some areas, but now i'm not sure. anyway, interesting topic.