No more hive spam!
Classic319
Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Members
Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Members
<div class="IPBDescription">overpowered Harvester</div>OK here is deal, although GL is overpowered, nothing is worse than Hive spam with just 2 harvesters.
2 harvesters that give each 1 res to two player each 8 secs and even 2 team resource for commander!
Just keeping marines to rush them just for 3~4 minutes, they can earn enough resources to put Hive.
(as having 2 RT is so basic for 2 team.)
That's ridiculous. Even most of the clan matches I've seen, even if marines struggle, aliens mostly win by continuosly dropping hives. Just build hive and hive hive hive... Then they always try to evolve as a fade at a short time when 2nd spammed hive is done and still alive.
For example, the latest clan match that I saw was just like that, marine killed hive even for twice, but lost game. : <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmwZmTZNjvg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmwZmTZNjvg</a> ! not bothering any clan members, everyone does that.
It could never be happened at original NS1. Of course NS1 had a problem that one of kharra player should be a volunteer.. but it was definately better and balanced than current NS2. So i think dev should think about it.
Otherwise, marines need to use more tres than aliens, so i don't think there should also be some deals for marines. Of course I also hate marines having so many resources and spamming turret then, but it has never happened at official matches, so that's for me, out of topic.
So.. maybe to increase the time term for aliens to get Team Resources gonna be better. maybe 13-15 secs?
To earn 50 resources was hard and challenging, but it's now too easy for Aliens.
Therefore, regardless of T3, I definately think the production of harvester should be nerfed. Not for RT of Marines, it's more usable and valuable than aliens.
p.s. Please don't mention about turret spam. It's awful, but it doesn't bring marines to win, but making game just boring, that's out of topic to balance the game i think.
2 harvesters that give each 1 res to two player each 8 secs and even 2 team resource for commander!
Just keeping marines to rush them just for 3~4 minutes, they can earn enough resources to put Hive.
(as having 2 RT is so basic for 2 team.)
That's ridiculous. Even most of the clan matches I've seen, even if marines struggle, aliens mostly win by continuosly dropping hives. Just build hive and hive hive hive... Then they always try to evolve as a fade at a short time when 2nd spammed hive is done and still alive.
For example, the latest clan match that I saw was just like that, marine killed hive even for twice, but lost game. : <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmwZmTZNjvg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmwZmTZNjvg</a> ! not bothering any clan members, everyone does that.
It could never be happened at original NS1. Of course NS1 had a problem that one of kharra player should be a volunteer.. but it was definately better and balanced than current NS2. So i think dev should think about it.
Otherwise, marines need to use more tres than aliens, so i don't think there should also be some deals for marines. Of course I also hate marines having so many resources and spamming turret then, but it has never happened at official matches, so that's for me, out of topic.
So.. maybe to increase the time term for aliens to get Team Resources gonna be better. maybe 13-15 secs?
To earn 50 resources was hard and challenging, but it's now too easy for Aliens.
Therefore, regardless of T3, I definately think the production of harvester should be nerfed. Not for RT of Marines, it's more usable and valuable than aliens.
p.s. Please don't mention about turret spam. It's awful, but it doesn't bring marines to win, but making game just boring, that's out of topic to balance the game i think.
Comments
1. In NS2 you start with 50 team res, instead of 25 res for each player in NS1, making it possible to drop a within a few seconds of the game starting.
2. The resflow is balanced for large games in NS2, whereas in NS1 the larger your team was, the longer it took to get enough res for a hive. As pubs typically had a 18-32 player limit in NS1, it could take up seven or eight minutes before you could afford a hive.
3. You rarely see marines pushing offensively to alien RTs (many possible reasons for this), whereas in NS1 you'd almost always have an early push team working to take out alien RTs early and often succeeding.
4. NS2 games last a lot longer than NS1 games (which I would guesstimate averaged around 15-30 minutes on pubs compared to maybe around an hour for NS2?). More time = more res gained = more chances to drop hives.
5. NS2 players are on average extremely inefficient at performing gameplay tasks, while NS1 players grew exceedingly efficient over the years. This is obviously going to improve by itself as the game gets older and players get more experience.
6. In NS2 you can drop several hives simultaneously, while in NS1 you could only have one growing hive.
I'm sure there are more reasons as well, but basically the idea is that all this stuff adds up. The result is the situation the OP is complaining about.
A cost increase on hives could work as a temp fix. 70?
Think that would be better than reducing aliens starting res, as it would work for the whole round instead of just the earlygame.
And then, aliens should only be able to drop one hive at a time.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showforum=92" target="_blank">link</a>
Now that I've mentioned it, I feel dirty...
Why not secure the room after your team takes down the hive?
So rines can't just leave unbuilt stations at every techpoint. And so aliens can't have three separate hives going up at once.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showforum=92" target="_blank">link</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please do not encourage this, dropping simultaneous hives is a viable strategy.
This will not be going up on our servers.
That'll give them time to finish a hive, and then you're doomed by mass fades.
This will not be going up on our servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well, that's why i make everything optional. server admins can enable/disable features as they like.
This will not be going up on our servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Due to your arrogance, I hope UWE make this official, then you get no choice!
By the time aliens have enough res to drop hive after hive after hive, the marines would likely be able to have alot of GLs. a squad of GLs, plus a flamer or a few shotties = pwned skulks at that point.
Hives aren't like command stations, where an entire team can build the thing up fast(same with structures) nothing helps them grow,and that puts aliens at a disadvantage.
One match I saw, the entire marine team went GL, rushed in, and the hive was down in seconds. It was horrifying. Well placed sentries, another CS, a phasegate, and so forth keeps aliens out..well unless you have a very persistant skulk who's better at evading turrets than usual,but thats what the phase gate is for.
the point is, marines can win matches if they work together, aliens usually work a bit more loosely..until the 'nades start flying, then they begin to buckle down.
If Hives cost even more, then aliens lose the 'fast hive' strategy that rarely works as it is for the beginning of matches. Fast hives mean no Team res for much else,so easy skulk kills and plenty of Pres for the marines.
Okay,so mid-late game. Marines wont let the aliens have hives,so the aliens put up a huge defense instead to buy some time to drop multiple hives.
by now you should have macs,and macs can build structures. Send one or so macs with at least one marine, to build up in,say, heliport and datacore. Heck,you can build up in each area,just no IPs or CS. Any turret you build in a hallway is one that distracts an alien. if it's under attack,you know about it and know where the aliens are trying to go to. Any aliens trying to take down the fortified area, are aliens that WONT be attacking the marines that are ready to take down the last and final hive.
So yeah,i dont really see what the problem is. marines can either take down the hive, pwning their Tres slowly (aliens usually cant handle being attacked in two or so places at once btw) or marines can come up with some other counter to it. But raising the cost of a hive won't help much,but leave aliens with fewer options and make public matches more boring
Look at that Video that I linked in my topic. Please tell me why Marines have lost the game, huh? You are out of topic. Regardless of GL, Hive spam and being fade are really overpowered. Why should marines always attack and move while aliens just wait and get resources? And you also mentioned fast hive strategy, but i don't wanna name it as "Strategy" because it doesn't deserve to be called as "strategy". That's just use of unbalance. So do hive spam! And lastly, you should know that aliens can earn enough tres to build another hive while 2nd hive is going up. So that happens even if they failed to defend 2nd hive. Why don't aliens get any disadvantages or responsibility to lose a hive? Hive, lost, Hive, lost. Till when are you gonna avoid mentioning about it?
By the time aliens have enough res to drop hive after hive after hive, the marines would likely be able to have alot of GLs. a squad of GLs, plus a flamer or a few shotties = pwned skulks at that point.
Hives aren't like command stations, where an entire team can build the thing up fast(same with structures) nothing helps them grow,and that puts aliens at a disadvantage.
One match I saw, the entire marine team went GL, rushed in, and the hive was down in seconds. It was horrifying. Well placed sentries, another CS, a phasegate, and so forth keeps aliens out..well unless you have a very persistant skulk who's better at evading turrets than usual,but thats what the phase gate is for.
the point is, marines can win matches if they work together, aliens usually work a bit more loosely..until the 'nades start flying, then they begin to buckle down.
If Hives cost even more, then aliens lose the 'fast hive' strategy that rarely works as it is for the beginning of matches. Fast hives mean no Team res for much else,so easy skulk kills and plenty of Pres for the marines.
Okay,so mid-late game. Marines wont let the aliens have hives,so the aliens put up a huge defense instead to buy some time to drop multiple hives.
by now you should have macs,and macs can build structures. Send one or so macs with at least one marine, to build up in,say, heliport and datacore. Heck,you can build up in each area,just no IPs or CS. Any turret you build in a hallway is one that distracts an alien. if it's under attack,you know about it and know where the aliens are trying to go to. Any aliens trying to take down the fortified area, are aliens that WONT be attacking the marines that are ready to take down the last and final hive.
So yeah,i dont really see what the problem is. marines can either take down the hive, pwning their Tres slowly (aliens usually cant handle being attacked in two or so places at once btw) or marines can come up with some other counter to it. But raising the cost of a hive won't help much,but leave aliens with fewer options and make public matches more boring<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this +1
<!--quoteo(post=1879073:date=Oct 10 2011, 04:54 AM:name=Classic319)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Classic319 @ Oct 10 2011, 04:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look at that Video that I linked in my topic. Please tell me why Marines have lost the game, huh? You are out of topic. Regardless of GL, Hive spam and being fade are really overpowered. Why should marines always attack and move while aliens just wait and get resources? And you also mentioned fast hive strategy, but i don't wanna name it as "Strategy" because it doesn't deserve to be called as "strategy". That's just use of unbalance. So do hive spam! And lastly, you should know that aliens can earn enough tres to build another hive while 2nd hive is going up. So that happens even if they failed to defend 2nd hive. Why don't aliens get any disadvantages or responsibility to lose a hive? Hive, lost, Hive, lost. Till when are you gonna avoid mentioning about it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow someone has had a bad experience playing NS2, in all the time i have played NS2 (including recent builds) i have rarely seen mass hive drop its not all that common so quit making a big deal about it
usually it's marines who hunker down and wait for Tres (then start spamming arcs, GLs,sentries,etc but you don't want to hear any of that,apparently)
It's not a use of unbalance, it's a legit strategy. If your group of marines can't even work together enough to build up areas around the ENTIRE map, its the marines at fault,not the aliens. .
When the second hive is lost, they don't get
1) a crag if they went shade on first hive (cant build them anymore)
2) a shade if they went crag on first hive(cant build them anymore)
3) if the second was THE craghive, the aliens can not get ANY armor upgrades(unless aliens sneak a crag into their main and use that but they cant build them anymore)
4) Gorge can't take out fortified areas because it cant use Bile Bomb
5) No Fade
On the other end if marines lose an area they lose
1) .. just some structures
2) their only other arms la- oh wait,no they can upgrade everything in their main base
3) The ability to make turr- oh wait, no they can build those at the main base too
4) Grenade lau- no wait, they can get those from their main base too
5) Flamethro- oh wait, they can get those at their main base
6) ARCs- oh wait, they can deploy those at their main base .
7) an RT
usually it's marines who hunker down and wait for Tres (then start spamming arcs, GLs,sentries,etc but you don't want to hear any of that,apparently)
It's not a use of unbalance, it's a legit strategy. If your group of marines can't even work together enough to build up areas around the ENTIRE map, its the marines at fault,not the aliens. .
When the second hive is lost, they don't get
1) a crag if they went shade on first hive (cant build them anymore)
2) a shade if they went crag on first hive(cant build them anymore)
3) if the second was THE craghive, the aliens can not get ANY armor upgrades(unless aliens sneak a crag into their main and use that but they cant build them anymore)
4) Gorge can't take out fortified areas because it cant use Bile Bomb
5) No Fade
On the other end if marines lose an area they lose
1) .. just some structures
2) their only other arms la- oh wait,no they can upgrade everything in their main base
3) The ability to make turr- oh wait, no they can build those at the main base too
4) Grenade lau- no wait, they can get those from their main base too
5) Flamethro- oh wait, they can get those at their main base
6) ARCs- oh wait, they can deploy those at their main base .
7) an RT<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines walk. But skulks, lerks, and fades can move maybe 2-3 times faster than marines. Why not think about it?
I just don't wanna see marines keep running to kill new dropped hive and again and again, even they are much slower than most of aliens while running. Why should always marines do that?
Therefore to allow them to spam hive or go fast hive stragedy, will cause more balance tasks for the many others. But just to have a deal for those two problems related to dropping hives, the others would gonna be also better and balanced. So you wanna slower skulk only depending on his movement skills and unblinkable fades?
I saw you mostly play as gorge, so it's you defensive. By the way, as I love RTS, I do play as commander, and all I do mostly for aliens is just drop hive after having one or two more RTs and just one for each chamber(I mean early game, 10-15 min). The most important thing for RTS gamer is to use resources properly. Happily marine commander belongs to it(except turret spam), but aliens? no. Just I said, after some drops of chambers(crag or shade) at safe or proper place then only head to drop hives. That's no fun at all.
And you know, now aliens don't need more than 3 chambers just like NS1. That's why dominate marines even at resource gains. If they should, I won't mention anymore about HIVE spamming, because it would make aliens to have as many responsibility to decide how to use resources as marines.
This will not be going up on our servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The very reason it's a 'viable strategy' is because it's OP.
It's the same with 'cloak lerk rushes', 'GL rushes' etc.
Dropping two hives at the same time, is pretty damn (over)powerful. Since putting a hive is basicly telling the marines to do or die.
It is good to see these things get squashed one by one, for a more balanced vanilla NS2.
-Remember that in NS1 you only had 2 spots on each map you could drop an extra hive, in summit you have 3 of them, not an easy task for marines to lock down all three.
-The second thing is that the game isn't finished, so it's just very easy for aliens to reach max Tier atm, once they need 3 hives for max Tier this won't be so easy.
Bring random hives & 3 hives/map back :-)
this is my<b><u> single complaint </u></b>with the current state of this game.
3/4 of the classes are available in 10 seconds sometimes..
basically, skulk vs rine gameplay is actually reduced by aliens being able to go super class so quickly..
if i were to create a mod it would be to reduce the starting res of alien players.
Furthermore, in NS1 aliens were not required to have multiple hives in order to evolve into a higher life-form. This makes the ability to drop multiple hives and the ability have up to four hives that much more important in advancing their tech tree.
Which causes a lot of balance problems in my perspective. As the aliens can have endgame fades as soon as they unlock them.
I enjoyed having the 1 hive drop at a time, helps give the alien players priority where to defend. Which the only problem is the lack of hud with hive info like ns1.
Now the marine commander needs to check for additional hives while killing a hive. Because these lovely new distraction hives.