SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1872503:date=Sep 1 2011, 08:46 AM:name=Nixxen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nixxen @ Sep 1 2011, 08:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could argue that skulks already have skill-based movement. The good ones are all over the place, glitching their animation between walls/ceiling/floor and taking you out, bite by bite.
The "normal" ones run towards you or ambush you and pretty much run in circles or randomly dart back and forth until either you or they are dead.
The animation exploit give those who know about it an advantage over those who don't know about it. In other words, skill based movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
reminds me of bunnyhop before it became common knowledge :D
<!--quoteo(post=1872498:date=Sep 1 2011, 12:22 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Sep 1 2011, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you are talking about how things will play out in future, but ignoring the fact that in parallel to improving performance, features are being added to the game. If you would have followed the development, you would have also known that skill based movement is something that is already planned. If I'm not wrong now, there was even said that something unique for each class is planned<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They do add things, but something as complex as a counterpart of aiming skill isn't something you add overnight or with little superficial features and detail adjustments. For example the bhop itself starts from the very way the engine handles movement and that's part of what makes it extremely satisfying, versatile, precise and in some ways also very intuitive and natural once you get past a certain barrier. If such system barely held itself in scaling against the marine system I'm not sure what kind of success some late beta feature pasted on top of the pile is going to achieve.
In my books this is way bigger than for example the DI which was already hastily prototyped into the game. The melee team movement goes to the core of very fundamentals of how NS works as FPS.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They're working on a wall bounding system designed to shift skulks quickly from surface to surface to gain speed and make him a hard target without it becoming a hop fest. The fade teleports obviously and the Lerk flies, both of which require skill to remain evasive and to strike at the proper position. The skulk is really the only one left without, and his fix is coming. You'll have your skill based movement, it's just going to look right for the atmosphere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Many people have expressed their doubts about the wallhopping as a sufficient replacement. It's a good feature, but it seems like an unlikely feature to work as a backbone of something meant to compete with the whole challenge of marine aiming. If it works, then so be it, but I'd like to get to test it sooner rather than later because the chances are that it will not go right on the first try and even if it does it still takes a while to make the rest of the lifeform blend in with the movement.
<!--quoteo(post=1872502:date=Sep 1 2011, 06:43 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 06:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872502"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah they do, that's part of the fun of the game. Atmosphere is a giant chunk of what makes a game fun. Dead Space is fun because it's atmospheric and spooky with fun gameplay mechanics. If Dead Space had all the game play mechanics but the atmosphere was totally bland and thematically inappropriate then it wouldn't be as fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Every game eventually breaks from atmosphere as you begin to get used to it. Stay on a beautiful island for more than a month and the "atmosphere becomes stale and dull. (i should know, im on one.) Without good gameplay atmosphere wont save the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ultimately bunny hopping is jump spamming, granted at specific intervals, it still requires jumping over and over and over. Regardless, how its referred to isn't relevant to what it ultimately is, an antiquated and thematically inappropriate style of movement that can be replaced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You still go on with the crap. It only shows your ignorance and stupidity. Read what people are writing instead of sprinting to where you can waste peoples time with repeated slanders and walls of text. Just jumping and timing jump will not get you bunny hopping. At least pretend to know what you are talking about. Everyone who knows how to BH knows you are full of it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The evidence is all around the forums, you'll constantly see people screaming "This isn't MWF2!" "Go back to Battlefield 2 kid!" If they were arguing for it solely because it had depth then they wouldn't have an issue examining the already present depth in the plethora of movement around. They wouldn't be against bunny hop being replaced by wall bounding for skulks. The team is already working on a thematically appropriate alternative yet people are still complaining, if the depth makes it fun and the depth is still around/being introduced in new forms there's no reason to complain. Evidence points instead to it being a matter of it not being depth, but it not being <b>bunny hop</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The screaming is for a lot of threads not just BHing, don't generalize to make your weak point. All i can see being done with wall jumping is a kinda of pogo stick motion rebounding against each wall gaining speed upon hitting another wall. Talk about looking stupid? But since you know nothing about bunny hopping other than "jump spam" you will not understand. You will love wall jump!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uh huh. So the flying, teleporting, and wall walking are not interesting types of movement? UWE has done more for movement in this one game than almost any game has done in years. Once again evidence is against you, UWE has at this current point, 3 unique types of movement (flying, teleportation, wall walking) besides the standard jump and run, while the games people get misty eyed about, Quake, Unreal, don't even match that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You cant even begin to use this as an argument. So you are saying NS2 has more movement because it has different classes? Of course lerks fly. They have wings. Teleporting? Really... The fades movement system is so awkward let alone, in the players eyes, you don't teleport. It is just accelerated forward movement (like a sprint) but you are invisible. So there are two types of movement. Good try though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They're working on a wall bounding system designed to shift skulks quickly from surface to surface to gain speed and make him a hard target without it becoming a hop fest. The fade teleports obviously and the Lerk flies, both of which require skill to remain evasive and to strike at the proper position. The skulk is really the only one left without, and his fix is coming. You'll have your skill based movement, it's just going to look right for the atmosphere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The lerk is the only system currently that requires skill to move. What we are saying is put BH in so that we can have our skill based movement. Once they want to add wall bouncing they can take it out. That way when wall bouncing fails we can put BH back in. But you don't know what BHing is.
Though Tempest had a good point. As the game is now BH isn't needed. But maps are going to get as big or bigger than NS1 maps and will be needed then.
Plus as others have said once the performance (server and client) is fixed skulks will be even easier to hit than in NS1 due to their increased size. Wall bouncing wont help with without air control which BH had.
Wall Hopping worked very well in all of the AVP series, especially the latest as a method to improve survivability, this was primarily because the hop was long enough to move between fairly distant surfaces and the camera reoriented (which we don't have) allowing you to immediately make it to another surface thus further confounding their aim. It would not be uncommon for an alien to go from floor, to ceiling, to wall, and then straight into a marine in AVP2010, not to mention when they would move out of sight, and attack from a different angle, sometimes only delivering a single blow before vanishing.
It made the game incredibly tense because you knew they were around somewhere, but you didn't know exactly where and you knew he was coming to finish you off. Seeing that skulks are vastly smaller than the xenos in AVP I think it should work fine, my only problem with the current skulk is I don't get a reorienting camera which really helps to tell you what surface you're on.
<!--quoteo(post=1872513:date=Sep 1 2011, 03:28 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Sep 1 2011, 03:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872513"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every game eventually breaks from atmosphere as you begin to get used to it. Stay on a beautiful island for more than a month and the "atmosphere becomes stale and dull. (i should know, im on one.) Without good gameplay atmosphere wont save the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Without good atmosphere the game becomes ridiculous and unimmersive and thus uninteresting. You need both.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You still go on with the crap. It only shows your ignorance and stupidity. Read what people are writing instead of sprinting to where you can waste peoples time with repeated slanders and walls of text. Just jumping and timing jump will not get you bunny hopping. At least pretend to know what you are talking about. Everyone who knows how to BH knows you are full of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Dude, bunny hopping was exactly this. You'd crouch, jump while strafing and try to move down hill to gain speed. You also change the angle of your aim side to side while doing so. You can also serpentine to avoid fire. In quake it was even spammier with pogo jumping. Ultimately bunny hopping is jumping over and over again and no matter how much you flame people for saying the truth, that's what it is. The fact that it's full of such unintuitive nonsense is reason enough to leave it out. Whose going to jump into NS2 and see a bunch of people bouncing and around and think "Oh, I just need to leap, change view angle, and jump again reversing the angle and move forward to gain speed!" There's nothing ignorant or stupid about it being called what it is. An antiquated glitch. What makes you so incapable of being able to succeed within the confines of the actual game parameters. Games have rules, if you can't play within them and win, that's really not a problem with the game. It's like arguing that someone should change the rules of monopoly because you don't feel you're going far enough when you in particular roll the dice.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The screaming is for a lot of threads not just BHing, don't generalize to make your weak point. All i can see being done with wall jumping is a kinda of pogo stick motion rebounding against each wall gaining speed upon hitting another wall. Talk about looking stupid? But since you know nothing about bunny hopping other than "jump spam" you will not understand. You will love wall jump!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you ever seen Aliens? A good example of wall leaping is shown at the end when Ripley is in the hive and an alien comes rebounding from wall to wall, and it frankly looks amazing. Calling me names because I don't glorify bunny hopping is really just hurting you.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cant even begin to use this as an argument. So you are saying NS2 has more movement because it has different classes? Of course lerks fly. They have wings. Teleporting? Really... The fades movement system is so awkward let alone, in the players eyes, you don't teleport. It is just accelerated forward movement (like a sprint) but you are invisible. So there are two types of movement. Good try though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can't strafe or turn well while phased, you can't air brake, and you can't gain speed by swooping. Teleport and Fly are two different movement styles. One is very direct, fast, with low precision, the other is fast, with high precision but indirect.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lerk is the only system currently that requires skill to move. What we are saying is put BH in so that we can have our skill based movement. Once they want to add wall bouncing they can take it out. That way when wall bouncing fails we can put BH back in. But you don't know what BHing is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again you fall back on constantly repeating the same platitudes without actual evidence about why I'm apparently so ignorant. I know what bunny hopping is, I've explained it, and you just run around screaming "No you're just stupid and ignorant!" For someone so fixated on demanding evidence you seem to be doing nothing but flaming me based on your own lack of understanding of what I'm even saying. Lerks, Fades, and Skulks all require skill to move properly and evasively. A Fade can easily snag as can the lerk, and precision movement with the fade can be especially hard, much harder than I've ever found BH to be.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Though Tempest had a good point. As the game is now BH isn't needed. But maps are going to get as big or bigger than NS1 maps and will be needed then.
Plus as others have said once the performance (server and client) is fixed skulks will be even easier to hit than in NS1 due to their increased size. Wall bouncing wont help with without air control which BH had.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wall bouncing gives acceleration which makes you harder to hit and changes the angle of attack making you a much more difficult target. It does everything bunny hopping did.
<!--quoteo(post=1872517:date=Sep 1 2011, 07:39 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 07:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Without good atmosphere the game becomes ridiculous and unimmersive and thus uninteresting. You need both.
Dude, bunny hopping was exactly this. You'd crouch, jump while strafing and try to move down hill to gain speed. While doing so you can also serpentine to avoid fire. In quake it was even spammier with pogo jumping. Ultimately bunny hopping is jumping over and over again and no matter how much you flame people for saying the truth, that's what it is. There's nothing ignorant or stupid about it.
Have you ever seen Aliens? A good example of wall leaping is shown at the end when Ripley is in the hive and an alien comes rebounding from wall to wall, and it frankly looks amazing. Calling me names because I don't glorify bunny hopping is really just hurting you.
You can't strafe or turn well while phased, you can't air brake, and you can't gain speed by swooping. Teleport and Fly are two different movement styles. One is very direct, fast, with low precision, the other is fast, with high precision but indirect.
Once again you fall back on constantly repeating the same platitudes without actual evidence about why I'm apparently so ignorant. I know what bunny hopping is, I've explained it, and you just run around screaming "No you're just stupid and ignorant!" For someone so fixated on demanding evidence you seem to be doing nothing but flaming me based on your own lack of understanding of what I'm even saying. Lerks, Fades, and Skulks all require skill to move properly and evasively. A Fade can easily snag as can the lerk, and precision movement with the fade can be especially hard, much harder than I've ever found BH to be.
Wall bouncing gives acceleration which makes you harder to hit and changes the angle of attack making you a much more difficult target. It does everything bunny hopping did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All i said in the naming category is this: "It only shows your ignorance and stupidity" Which is true. You didnt describe bunny hopping at all. Crouch was only used to not stick to wall, down hill didnt matter, strafing was a apart of it, but you missed the most important part. Air control and mastering the motions there in. (but i am by no means a master at this skill and dont understand every angle to it. I can not do it as well as the pros but i can mimic pretty well and gain the speed i want. I will leave it to them to spell it out to you.)
Oh and btw if i dont point out every thing wrong with your posts it is because it has been pointed out above. It doesnt make you right. So i will leave you to your ignorance. By your posts you use those oh so irregular words but cant hide the fact that you are quite uninformed and against reading what others have written. Are you related to another person on this forum perhaps that i love so much?
Once something is implemented we can revisit this topic again. Im sure you will fight to the death for the new system because if that fails we all know you dont have an alternative other than irrational ramblings.
<!--quoteo(post=1872520:date=Sep 1 2011, 04:00 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Sep 1 2011, 04:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All i said in the naming category is this: "It only shows your ignorance and stupidity" Which is true. You didnt describe bunny hopping at all. Crouch was only used to not stick to wall, down hill didnt matter,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Believe it or not more than one game has bunny hop and they don't all work the same way. Hills were big in Tribes ski jumping which was similar in effect.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->strafing was a apart of it, but you missed the most important part. Air control and mastering the motions there in. (but i am by no means a master at this skill and dont understand every angle to it. I can not do it as well as the pros but i can mimic pretty well and gain the speed i want. I will leave it to them to spell it out to you.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The motions are a back and forth sway between right to left where you essentially strafe in partial circles before swooping about in the opposite direction to gain speed. A way you'd practice this in CS (besides getting a BH map) was by finding crates with one crate intersecting and leaping from one crate to the next by curving around the intervening crate. That's how the HL engine BH work, quake wasn't the same, nor was Tribes original variant.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh and btw if i dont point out every thing wrong with your posts it is because it has been pointed out above. It doesnt make you right. So i will leave you to your ignorance. By your posts you use those oh so irregular words but cant hide the fact that you are quite uninformed and against reading what others have written. Are you related to another person on this forum perhaps that i love so much?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh huh, so in short you don't actually have a response save to claim someone else has made it for you. I've explained bunny hopping in detail to you, a skill you, by admission, don't even understand entirely. A note, running around calling people names without giving any evidence is not an argument, it's a surrender.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once something is implemented we can revisit this topic again. Im sure you will fight to the death for the new system because if that fails we all know you dont have an alternative other than irrational ramblings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->And you don't have an alternative other than the crutch of bunny hopping because you can't function in a game without an artificial edge? This is UWE's system they're adding, and I support it because it maintains atmosphere. You haven't done anything other than flame me without actually giving any reason why, when pressed you fled from the question claiming others had made the points. When you're ready to stop running for actual discourse with reasoning, not just name calling, I'll be around. Until then all you've done is shown you can't debate the point, you just hurl invectives and hope it distracts people from the fact you don't have anything better to say.
I think kangaroos look stupid when jumping, why dont they walk? Lets get rid off them. Who says aliens are like aliens in the movies. I think bhopping skulk looks cool at NS1 when its small, fast and therefore hard to hit. AND bh works great with wall jumping/bouncing in ns1 why wouldnt it look nice on NS2.
I also think its stupid that marines can shoot so well without actually aiming with iron sight. All the other games have iron sights why not NS2 (please dont add it).
Immersion Breaking - It wouldnt be if the devs planned for an implemented BHing. It would be then apart of the core mechanic and could be given good animations. So that Argument may have worked in NS1 but not now.
Exploit - So what? It was adopted into normal game play. If, like above, it was implemented from the start it would not be an exploit.
Not Intuitive - I agree, bu ti do like have to learn how to do it and it not being given to me on a pretty plate with a note telling me "Edible". But that is opinion. Which will vary.
Hit box distortion - This would be interesting to see with the new net code and engine. This could probably be worked out. But i am no programmer and know little in this regard. This would be the only real gripe. It is one thing to move to you cant be hit but another to purposely move in a way that makes you unhittable (in regards to where the player sees your model and should be shooting).
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1872353:date=Aug 31 2011, 09:08 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 31 2011, 09:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm too tired of arguing with people who have all sorts of opinions but no knowledge to back it up with, to reply to the rest of your post. If you want to educate yourself on the debates we've had on the subject here previously, you can read this: <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/</a> The response from the anti-bh side has largely been of the "it looks lame, it's difficult to learn, it's overpowered, it's elitist, it's not how ns was meant to be played, it's an exploit" kind, all of which can be addressed easily or are simply untrue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1872476:date=Sep 1 2011, 11:37 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 11:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course it's valid. Atmosphere plays a major part of a game. That's why rifles in NS2 don't fire rainbows and flowers, skulks don't sound like wet farts, and disco music doesn't play in the main menu. With increasing graphical capability comes increasing expectations of better looking games and better immersion. NS1 was made with half-life's engine, everything looked goofy in half-life, so NS1 made do. The spark engine is a vast improvement and thus more is expected.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here we go again. The same tired old arguments that don't actually have any weight. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised anymore, one of the first thing one learns on the Internet is that you don't need to have any knowledge to have opinions.
Of course atmosphere matters. But so what? Is there some rule that says bunnyhopping has to look "goofy"? No. In fact you don't have to look any further than nature on earth to find examples of creatures that move about using jumping motions. It shouldn't be difficult to add jump animations that make bunnyhopping look perfectly natural for the skulk.
That said, in a multiplayer game, you also have to accept a certain amount of "goofy"-ness. The only way to remove that, would be to limit player control over their ingame avatars so much that you might as well just make them NPCs. Play one round of NS2 beta and it won't take you long to find something that looks even more "goofy" than bunnyhopping: marines and skulks spastically jumping around more or less randomly to make them harder to hit.
<!--quoteo(post=1872476:date=Sep 1 2011, 11:37 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 11:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is a crutch, everyone has the a set movement speed they are intended to move at. You can climb up walls, jump over things, and eventually <b>fly around in the freaking sky.</b> The fade is a hairs breadth away from practically <b>walking through walls.</b> There's nothing drab and slow about the movement in NS2, people are getting upset because they can't cheat the system to get even faster than intended movement by spamming space bar. People keep claiming there's all these movement problems, that people feel sluggish, what do you want from this game? Why not just turn no-clip on permanently if it's that restricting, then everyone can fly through walls and nothing will slow you down. There's nothing drab about the movement, you can do all sorts of things, especially with aliens, if you can't handle spending some time on the ground not moving at hyper-speed I don't see how you play any shooter that isn't Unreal Tournament.
Bunny Hopping is a crutch. It's a hold over from older times that allowed players to spam a button to move faster. People are refusing to give it up because its comfortable and familiar and plainly effective. But that is not sufficient reason to keep it around when it violates the atmosphere of the game.
You want skill based movement, they're making it, you want bunny hopping, its obviously not in the game, its time for people to start accepting that and exploring the new opportunities they're giving you (jump packs, flying, teleportation, wall running) and move on, leave bunny hop in the museum, where it belongs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is where you betray your complete lack of knowledge about the subject at hand. Bunnyhopping has never been a crutch or "cheating the system". It was intentionally left in the game for NS and the gameplay was balanced around its use. If you had bothered to read a little before furiously typing out all your uninformed opinions I wouldn't have to waste my time correcting your misinformation (and you are not the only one, in fact I have yet to see a single opponent of bunnyhopping that doesn't leverage his argument on a factual error, either because he doesn't know better or because he is lying).
As multiple posters have already stated, and should be abundantly clear anyway, bunnyhopping is only one of many techniques a good NS player had to master. Anyone trying to use his skill at bunnyhopping as a crutch for his lack of other skills would be at a huge disadvantage. Bad players often use the "bunnyhop crutch/exploit" belief as an "argument" when they're frustrated at being unable to compete against better players. It is apparently inconceivable to them that they are losing because they aren't good enough -- there must be some sort of trickery or cheating involved! FACT IS, said better player is most likely better than the frustrated player in every part of the game. The players you see destroying your team with their "bunnyhop crutch" are also experts at using all the other movement systems in the game as well, not to mention ambushing which is an integral part of competitive NS.
Furthermore you claim that we use bunnyhopping to "get even faster than intended movement (again, this is wrong: bunnyhopping IS intended movement in NS) by spamming space bar", which makes it obvious that you don't know how bunnyhopping actually works. Timing the jumps is the easiest part. You can learn that in a matter of days. The difficult part, the part that makes it deep, enganging and actually balances the game, is learning the nuances of "air control" and how to use it in combat. I played NS at the top level for eight years and I still can't claim to have perfected it. What's even better is that it enhances and synergizes perfectly with the other skills required to play NS. It is a movement system that takes a while to learn, but a lifetime to master, to paraphrase the Othello slogan. With a little work from the developers side, I'm sure we could make it a moment to learn, but a lifetime to master instead, which should be the gold standard for any game mechanic.
You also claim that we should "(accept) and (explore) the new opportunities they're giving (us)". I find this an odd argument since they haven't actually given us any new opportunities yet. All the "opportunities" you mention were present in NS too. Compared to the "a while to learn, but a liftetime to master" for bunnyhopping, these have the quality of "a moment to learn, a couple of months to master". They have little depth and a dedicated player will quickly master the few nuances there are.
There is still the question of the new skill based movement system UWE wants to implement, but considering no one has been able to find an adequate replacement for bunnyhopping in the 15 or so years since it was discovered, and since we still haven't seen anything tangible about it even though they've been talking about it for years, I'm not going to hold my breath.
<!--quoteo(post=1872491:date=Sep 1 2011, 12:56 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 1 2011, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skills that are unintuitive and not gained by playing the game do not represent skill at that game, merely represents the fact the player is willing to go to extra effort to research and discover glitches and advantages over other players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your argument is false, there is no reason why we can't make bunnyhopping more intuitive.
<!--quoteo(post=1872503:date=Sep 1 2011, 01:46 PM:name=Nixxen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nixxen @ Sep 1 2011, 01:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could argue that skulks already have skill-based movement. The good ones are all over the place, glitching their animation between walls/ceiling/floor and taking you out, bite by bite.
The "normal" ones run towards you or ambush you and pretty much run in circles or randomly dart back and forth until either you or they are dead.
The animation exploit give those who know about it an advantage over those who don't know about it. In other words, skill based movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is kind of like saying that opening a cardboard box takes skill -- sure it does, but it's not exactly a deep skill. It takes a few moments to learn for someone who's never done it before, and then there's nothing more to do with it.
The ones that aren't there currently: Pros: 1: Active movement vs passive movement for more engaging game play. 2: If properly animated and added, adds for much more disturbing and tense encounters with aliens (IE wall jump to attack from various angles) thus increasing atmospheric immersion. (There's no reason an alien should move just like a human, as long as he doesn't look silly it can enhance the alien aspect.) 3: Thematically separates classes by giving them very distinct styles of movement which also subconsciously instruct players in their use without needing tons of boring text. In short, softens learning curve. A wall leaping/bunny hopping skulk that looks right gives the impression of a very fast, agile predator which helps players tune into their particular classes skills and abilities. 4: Balances increase in enemy aiming skill with increase in movement skill thus preventing games with skilled players from devolving into ambush only.
Cons: 1: Annoying method of control. Mouse movements and and strafe jumping combined make it feel very artificial and clumsy. When ski jumping was fully integrated into Tribes it felt very natural and flowed well, HL style bunny hopping does not. 2: Can make too large of a skill gap between new players and older players driving away (paying) players from the game thus detracting from financial success and longevity.
I personally don't think that its an exploit from an older engine should be considered a con, as its really a neutral point. I do think what should in its place is: 3: Because it was an exploit from an earlier engine people may take its introduction as a signal to bring back other unwelcome features that accompanied bunny hopping (Scripts.)
<!--quoteo(post=1872527:date=Sep 1 2011, 04:45 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 1 2011, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here we go again. The same tired old arguments that don't actually have any weight. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised anymore, one of the first thing one learns on the Internet is that you don't need to have any knowledge to have opinions.
Of course atmosphere matters. But so what? Is there some rule that says bunnyhopping has to look "goofy"? No. In fact you don't have to look any further than nature on earth to find examples of creatures that move about using jumping motions. It shouldn't be difficult to add jump animations that make bunnyhopping look perfectly natural for the skulk.
That said, in a multiplayer game, you also have to accept a certain amount of "goofy"-ness. The only way to remove that, would be to limit player control over their ingame avatars so much that you might as well just make them NPCs. Play one round of NS2 beta and it won't take you long to find something that looks even more "goofy" than bunnyhopping: marines and skulks spastically jumping around more or less randomly to make them harder to hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> THANK YOU GOD! Finally! Yes, that is EXACTLY what I mean. <u>I don't care about bunny hopping as a subject</u>, I care how it looks. If it looks <u>good</u> ADD IT. I'm not bringing up atmosphere so I can turn around and pretend I never mentioned it. I'm bringing it up because it's a sticking point. What do you constantly see in bunny hopping complaint threads? "It looks really dumb." If it doesn't look dumb, then there is no problem.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is where you betray your complete lack of knowledge about the subject at hand. Bunnyhopping has never been a crutch or "cheating the system". It was intentionally left in the game for NS and the gameplay was balanced around its use. If you had bothered to read a little before furiously typing out all your uninformed opinions I wouldn't have to waste my time correcting your misinformation (and you are not the only one, in fact I have yet to see a single opponent of bunnyhopping that doesn't leverage his argument on a factual error, either because he doesn't know better or because he is lying).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was in CS where I encountered it quite heavily. I got pretty decent with it too, but then I realized I was wasting my time with CS when hackers started coming in droves.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As multiple posters have already stated, and should be abundantly clear anyway, bunnyhopping is only one of many techniques a good NS player had to master. Anyone trying to use his skill at bunnyhopping as a crutch for his lack of other skills would be at a huge disadvantage. Bad players often use the "bunnyhop crutch/exploit" belief as an "argument" when they're frustrated at being unable to compete against better players. It is apparently inconceivable to them that they are losing because they aren't good enough -- there must be some sort of trickery or cheating involved! FACT IS, said better player is most likely better than the frustrated player in every part of the game. The players you see destroying your team with their "bunnyhop crutch" are also experts at using all the other movement systems in the game as well, not to mention ambushing which is an integral part of competitive NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was pretty evident which ones were using it as a crutch. They'd get stuck because they didn't know lay outs, they'd think BH was god mode, and they'd get shot because they didn't combine with serpentine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Furthermore you claim that we use bunnyhopping to "get even faster than intended movement (again, this is wrong: bunnyhopping IS intended movement in NS) by spamming space bar", which makes it obvious that you don't know how bunnyhopping actually works. Timing the jumps is the easiest part. You can learn that in a matter of days. The difficult part, the part that makes it deep, enganging and actually balances the game, is learning the nuances of "air control" and how to use it in combat. I played NS at the top level for eight years and I still can't claim to have perfected it. What's even better is that it enhances and synergizes perfectly with the other skills required to play NS. It is a movement system that takes a while to learn, but a lifetime to master, to paraphrase the Othello slogan. With a little work from the developers side, I'm sure we could make it a moment to learn, but a lifetime to master instead, which should be the gold standard for any game mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In CS it was not intended, BH was ultimately an engine bug and the sooner you come to accept that the sooner you'll be at peace with it. There were whole maps dedicated to practicing Bunny Hopping and all the training that you went through to get good at it was because it was fundamentally unintuitive movement. I actually gave a much more in depth explanation of what it was because apparently broad strokes weren't enough.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You also claim that we should "(accept) and (explore) the new opportunities they're giving (us)". I find this an odd argument since they haven't actually given us any new opportunities yet. All the "opportunities" you mention were present in NS too. Compared to the "a while to learn, but a liftetime to master" for bunnyhopping, these have the quality of "a moment to learn, a couple of months to master". They have little depth and a dedicated player will quickly master the few nuances there are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then you'll soon be fighting against servers full of masters and it shouldn't be a problem then should it. Bunny hopping is hard to manage because its unintuitive. Just because it takes a long time to master doesn't make it good, it just makes it difficult.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is still the question of the new skill based movement system UWE wants to implement, but considering no one has been able to find an adequate replacement for bunnyhopping in the 15 or so years since it was discovered, and since we still haven't seen anything tangible about it even though they've been talking about it for years, I'm not going to hold my breath.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They haven't been bothering because they've left it behind with the march of time.
The hitbox disortion is actually the complete opposite. Without bhop we'd have a lot more hitbox trouble in NS1.
The funny thing is that bhop itself is quite predictable in some ways, especially from the netcode viewpoint. You can't make very rapid changes in direction, which makes the network prediction and lag compensation part work reliably.
Without bhop the most effective way to fight is usually to spam left and right strafes, which is makes the netcode prediction go absolutely crazy. That kind of dodging isn't fun, immersive or skill based to any great extends.
I don't know if the modern netcodes can handle the prediction part better, but it's strongly related to the general latency of connections, so basically any prediction based netcode has some issues with the left/right strafe spam and high speed aliens highlight that problem quite effectively.
---
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Azimath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azimath)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cons: 1: Annoying method of control. Mouse movements and and strafe jumping combined make it feel very artificial and clumsy. When ski jumping was fully integrated into Tribes it felt very natural and flowed well, HL style bunny hopping does not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's kind of like learning to swim. At first nothing makes sense and everything feels awkward as you're unfamiliar to the element. It takes a short while to get your brain adapt into the game world.
However, once you start figuring it out, it becomes <b>by far</b> the most natural, precise and fluently flowing movement system I've experienced in any game during my 10+ years of gaming. The skill challenge aside, things I miss in NS2 are exactly the flow and natural feel of movement. If you ever watch me play NS1, you'll see me playing around with the movement all the time because it's such a wonderful, natural and fluent system in its own way. I also do a lot of little stuff halfway instinctually because of how natural the system is once you get the feel of it.
Had you played CS a bit further I think you would've found the thing there. At least looking at the present gamers even pubbers seem often quite natural with the system - to be completely honest more natural on the CS enviroment than I am.
We could have a lot more discussion about how to remove the awkward starting point if only we didn't have to keep dodging strawmen, correcting false facts and arguing about the clear benefits of the system.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3: Because it was an exploit from an earlier engine people may take its introduction as a signal to bring back other unwelcome features that accompanied bunny hopping (Scripts.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think I've at least once even in this very thread mentioned about the quake styled queued jump timing, which removes the only element where bhop even could be scripted. If you're worried about scripting, the pistol is the thing you want to be worried about.
I'm just going to go out on a limb here but I think you don't even know how to bunnyhop. In fact, I'm going to generalize pretty much everyone that doesn't like the idea as people that either don't know how to bunnyhop or were just horrendous at it and never took the time to really learn it.
But yeah, I do agree that it should be made significantly easier to learn (similar to skiing from Tribes to Tribes 2). Allow jump queuing and/or holding the jump button down, give it some better animations as well as a built in tutorial, pretty much anything that would bring it up to modern day standards.
And moving on back to Visionz (not trying to call you out man, just using you as an example), you said you were an ex-exigent player who was fluent in bunnyhopping in NS1. Yet when we loaded up ze_marinebhop again a few weeks ago you couldn't do the first jump after like 10 minutes of attempts. Anyone who could actually bunnyhop (and this is pretty much a binary skill, there was certainly a skill ceiling but it was largely a "could or couldn't" type thing) would have easily been able to do that.
tl;dr MOST of the people against any form of bunnyhopping never actually bunnyhopped in ns1.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1872528:date=Sep 1 2011, 03:46 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was pretty evident which ones were using it as a crutch. They'd get stuck because they didn't know lay outs, they'd think BH was god mode, and they'd get shot because they didn't combine with serpentine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Against hitscan weapons, serpentine doesn't make you much harder to hit. The difference only becomes apparent when a player who is good at bunnyhopping comes up against a player who doesn't know how to aim well. Seems pretty obvious who should come out on top of that duel.
<!--quoteo(post=1872528:date=Sep 1 2011, 03:46 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In CS it was not intended, BH was ultimately an engine bug and the sooner you come to accept that the sooner you'll be at peace with it. There were whole maps dedicated to practicing Bunny Hopping and all the training that you went through to get good at it was because it was fundamentally unintuitive movement. I actually gave a much more in depth explanation of what it was because apparently broad strokes weren't enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We're not talking about CS here, or Quake or Tribes for that matter. We're talking about the sequel to Natural Selection. Obviously NS2 needs to be a different game, but the natural point of reference is the original game. When you keep saying that it is a glitch and an exploit and a cheat, when it actually wasn't in the original game, you're spreading misinformation and frankly you should apologize. It's because of people like you that every time this debate pops up on the forums, we have to spend half the thread correcting all the misinformation and it's ruining the debate.
<!--quoteo(post=1872528:date=Sep 1 2011, 03:46 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then you'll soon be fighting against servers full of masters and it shouldn't be a problem then should it. Bunny hopping is hard to manage because its unintuitive. Just because it takes a long time to master doesn't make it good, it just makes it difficult.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The entire point is that you need something to keep people playing the game after the initial novelty of "marines in space and aliens!" wears off. If there's nothing more to learn, there really isn't any reason to keep playing the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1872528:date=Sep 1 2011, 03:46 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They haven't been bothering because they've left it behind with the march of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There have been plenty of attempts, but none have succeeded. You even mentioned the wallhopping in the new AVP yourself. Funnily enough that game is a horrible example of developers trying to implement new movement mechanics and failing miserably. Going into detail would take too long, but I will at least say that wallhopping in it self is no replacement for bunnyhopping as it offers no real depth. You can master it quickly and then there isn't anything left to learn.
If you add acceleration, timing and air control to the mix, it becomes deeper, but it is still limited by the fact that it is now simply mimicking bunnyhopping, in effect a limited bunnyhop. NS had very limited wallhopping, which synergized perfectly with bunnyhopping and the game mechanics that made bunnyhopping possible in the first place. The only pitfall was that it was severly limited in efficiency, probably in an attempt to balance it. With some improvements and combined with bunnyhopping, I'm certain it would work wonderfully in NS2.
I recommend you read the article I linked to in the the quote I posted in my first reply to you. You'll learn a lot about how bunnyhopping worked in NS and why we think it will improve NS2.
Then you'd be over and inaccurately generalizing. People have different tastes. I care that the controls be good and that atmosphere is maintained, if bunny hopping is animated to look fitting, I don't care if it's in the game, go for it. I don't appreciate the elitism that's oozing out of some posts on the board about bunny hopping, people are entitled to their opinion on it either way. Both sides have been stoking this thing whenever it comes up (unfortunately myself included.) Ultimately it's not doing anything but driving the community apart and I don't think NS2 can afford bad press nor abandonment from vets of NS1, so both sides have a serious stake in the games financial future.
I think this will all be a lot better if everyone takes a nice deep breath and just accepts that some parts of peoples opinion aren't going to change and that other parts are more pliable.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1872537:date=Sep 1 2011, 04:31 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then you'd be over and inaccurately generalizing. People have different tastes. I care that the controls be good and that atmosphere is maintained, if bunny hopping is animated to look fitting, I don't care if it's in the game, go for it. I don't appreciate the elitism that's oozing out of some posts on the board about bunny hopping, people are entitled to their opinion on it either way. Both sides have been stoking this thing whenever it comes up (unfortunately myself included.) Ultimately it's not doing anything but driving the community apart and I don't think NS2 can afford bad press nor abandonment from vets of NS1, so both sides have a serious stake in the games financial future.
I think this will all be a lot better if everyone takes a nice deep breath and just accepts that some parts of peoples opinion aren't going to change and that other parts are more pliable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Be careful not to confuse elitism with actual knowledge. Unfortunately a lot of people cry "elitism" when they're simply being told the truth. Certainly you're allowed to have an opinion, but when that opinion is based on a lack of knowledge, and you then use that to spread misinformation, you had better be prepared to be called out for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1872536:date=Sep 1 2011, 05:29 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 1 2011, 05:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Against hitscan weapons, serpentine doesn't make you much harder to hit. The difference only becomes apparent when a player who is good at bunnyhopping comes up against a player who doesn't know how to aim well. Seems pretty obvious who should come out on top of that duel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Every bit counts.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're not talking about CS here, or Quake or Tribes for that matter. We're talking about the sequel to Natural Selection. Obviously NS2 needs to be a different game, but the natural point of reference is the original game. When you keep saying that it is a glitch and an exploit and a cheat, when it actually wasn't in the original game, you're spreading misinformation and frankly you should apologize. It's because of people like you that every time this debate pops up on the forums, we have to spend half the thread correcting all the misinformation and it's ruining the debate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright, I'll apologize and be very clear.
"I am sorry for generalizing that bunny hop was a bug or glitch/exploit/cheat. It's not in all games, some games it's actually a full part of game play. In my primary experience with it in CS it was an exploit, a glitch in the game engine. That it remained in NS1 despite it being well known in HL should be clear evidence it was intended to be used as such in NS1."
There. My experience is primarily with CS in this regard (though I played NS1.) I'd appreciate it if you showed the same courtesy by toning down the elitism.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wish you would stop throwing out these "arguments" without actually thinking first. The entire point is that you need something to keep people playing the game after the initial novelty of "marines in space and aliens!" wears off. If there's nothing more to learn, there really isn't any reason to keep playing the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe you should have taken some time to understand what I was saying. Difficult does not mean good, unintuitive does not mean good. This has to do with the method by which bunny hopping is learned that's a problem. If it's a core skill in the game is must be presented clearly to players, it shouldn't be something you need to already be in the know about.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There have been plenty of attempts, but none have succeeded. You even mentioned the wallhopping in the new AVP yourself. Funnily enough that game is a horrible example of developers trying to implement new movement mechanics and failing miserably. Going into detail would take long, but I will at least say that wallhopping in it self is no replacement for bunnyhopping as it offers no real depth. You can master it quickly and then there isn't anything left to learn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess it's my turn to be doubtful. Have you even played the new AVP at all? Because by your comment it wouldn't seem so. Wall hopping worked extremely well and a skilled player could use it to traverse environments at lightning speed from floor to ceiling to wall, you could move so fast between areas, through vents, and around corners it was often hard for marines to even hit you until you got very close. Unlike bunny hopping however it didn't rely on complicated strafe+jump+turn+repeat maneuvers, instead you had to plan your routes out, be able to adjust immediately to new orientations, and transition smoothly to attack. In the first AVP this was similar to the forward leap+tail stab maneuvers that aliens would use to close distance immediately but requires extremely careful timing on both the attack and the jump itself, not to mention good aim.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you add acceleration, timing and air control to the mix, it becomes deeper, but it is still limited by the fact that is now simply mimicking bunnyhopping, in effect a limited bunnyhop. NS also had very limited wallhopping, which synergized perfectly with bunnyhopping and the game mechanics that mad bunnyhopping possible in the first place. The only pitfall was that it was severly limited in efficiency, probably in an attempt to balance it. With some improvements and combined with bunnyhopping, I'm certain it would work wonderfully in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is really something we'll have to see, like I've said so many times before, as long as it looks good, I don't care if its bunny hopping.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I recommend you read the article I linked to in the the quote I posted in my first reply to you. You'll learn a lot about how bunnyhopping worked in NS and why we think it will improve NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've read it before and it doesn't do much for me frankly because it doesn't address the really only concern how to make it not look stupid.
<!--quoteo(post=1872540:date=Sep 1 2011, 05:38 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 1 2011, 05:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Be careful not to confuse elitism with actual knowledge. Unfortunately a lot of people cry "elitism" when they're simply being told the truth. Certainly you're allowed to have an opinion, but when that opinion is based on a lack of knowledge, and you then use that to spread misinformation, you had better be prepared to be called out for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Elitism is often a much larger factor of how the information is presented. You've read these boards, you know there are inevitably the replies of "Go play BF2 noob." or "This isn't MWF kid." Those are obnoxious elitist replies and typically from people who have nothing to be elitist about. I don't think new players coming to NS2 for the first time and pre-ordering are finding the boards or community all that appealing from the showing I've seen here. Hell, I've been playing games for some 18 years and even I find myself getting less and less sure of the game prospects (thus may not want to recommend it to my friends) because of some people who make up the community.
I know NS1 had and NS2 will most likely have a large clan/pro community but catering to those sorts of players alone may not be all that financially sound. I'd love to see Natural Selection become a great franchise of games and for UWE to become a name in development but I don't get the feeling that's what the future has in store. There's nothing wrong with accessibility in a game.
Bunny hopping's generally is an exploit in games that people find fun, so it is not removed.
From a game design point of view it should never be included in a game. You do not add features that are not explained or are 'hidden' from new comers. Also movement in FPS game's should not require skilled techniques like bunny hopping, the skill focus should remain on actual primary game play.
<!--quoteo(post=1872476:date=Sep 1 2011, 12:37 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course it's valid. Atmosphere plays a major part of a game. That's why rifles in NS2 don't fire rainbows and flowers, skulks don't sound like wet farts, and disco music doesn't play in the main menu. With increasing graphical capability comes increasing expectations of better looking games and better immersion. NS1 was made with half-life's engine, everything looked goofy in half-life, so NS1 made do. The spark engine is a vast improvement and thus more is expected.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually I think NS1 did things very well (despite it being due to the Gldsource-engine), maps weren't overly bright and thus still conveyed atmosphere, but at the same time were suitable for longevity as they didn't demand the constant use of a bloody flashlight (which is kinda the situation with NS2 now), I'm already fed up with the darkness of current NS2-maps. NS2 has more than enough atmosphere to go by, no need to go handicap gameplay to shove even more in there, you'll just kill the community long-term (FYI Alien vs Predator is pretty dead at this point).
<!--QuoteBegin-'Kalabalana'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Kalabalana')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From a game design point of view it should never be included in a game. You do not add features that are not explained or are 'hidden' from new comers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with that, NS1 did it a bit half-arsed by keeping bunnyhopping in but never really embracing it properly with a tutorial\built-in keybinds\automation.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also movement in FPS game's should not require skilled techniques like bunny hopping, the skill focus should remain on actual primary game play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS1 didn't 'require' you to be able to bunnyhop, it was simply a major plus for the competitive-scene.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1872542:date=Sep 1 2011, 04:45 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alright, I'll apologize and be very clear.
"I am sorry for generalizing that bunny hop was a bug or glitch/exploit/cheat. It's not in all games, some games it's actually a full part of game play. In my primary experience with it in CS it was an exploit, a glitch in the game engine. That it remained in NS1 despite it being well known in HL should be clear evidence it was intended to be used as such in NS1."
There. My experience is primarily with CS in this regard (though I played NS1.) I'd appreciate it if you showed the same courtesy by toning down the elitism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's the first time I've seen anyone in one of these threads have the balls to do that, kudos to you. I'm not sure where I'm being elitist, feel free to point it out, but I think you're confusing the term or at least not using it in a fair way. If I was being elitist, I would simply say "learn to play noob". Instead I've taken the time to write long and thorough replies explaining the issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1872542:date=Sep 1 2011, 04:45 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe you should have taken some time to understand what I was saying. Difficult does not mean good, unintuitive does not mean good. This has to do with the method by which bunny hopping is learned that's a problem. If it's a core skill in the game is must be presented clearly to players, it shouldn't be something you need to already be in the know about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't disagree with that at all. Bunnyhopping being unintuitive in NS is one of the arguments against it that actually stick. I also believe however that this can be remedied in NS2. Quake style jump queueing and tutorials have already been suggested, and I'm sure we could come up with other ways to make it easier and more natural to learn as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1872542:date=Sep 1 2011, 04:45 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess it's my turn to be doubtful. Have you even played the new AVP at all? Because by your comment it wouldn't seem so. Wall hopping worked extremely well and a skilled player could use it to traverse environments at lightning speed from floor to ceiling to wall, you could move so fast between areas, through vents, and around corners it was often hard for marines to even hit you until you got very close. Unlike bunny hopping however it didn't rely on complicated strafe+jump+turn+repeat maneuvers, instead you had to plan your routes out, be able to adjust immediately to new orientations, and transition smoothly to attack. In the first AVP this was similar to the forward leap+tail stab maneuvers that aliens would use to close distance immediately but requires extremely careful timing on both the attack and the jump itself, not to mention good aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're misunderstanding my argument. I'm not saying that wallhopping can't be effective. If you wanted to, you could make it overpowered easily enough. It is however not a deep skill. It doesn't take a long time to master. I've already gone over why it's important to have depth in earlier posts and in the article.
<!--quoteo(post=1872542:date=Sep 1 2011, 04:45 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know NS1 had and NS2 will most likely have a large clan/pro community but catering to those sorts of players alone may not be all that financially sound. I'd love to see Natural Selection become a great franchise of games and for UWE to become a name in development but I don't get the feeling that's what the future has in store. There's nothing wrong with accessibility in a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I completely agree that catering to competitive players alone would be disastrous for the games popularity. But then again, nobody here is arguing that the game should cater only to competitive players. If you read the article, as you claim you did, you would know that that isn't part of the argument at all. Instead I would have to flip it around and ask you if it's a good idea for the game to solely cater to casual players (people who only play a couple of hours a week), which is what you're doing if you're not adding depth to the game. That depth doesn't have to be bunnyhopping, but there aren't a lot of game mechanics that can compete with it in terms of depth.
<!--quoteo(post=1872545:date=Sep 1 2011, 05:15 PM:name=Kalabalana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Sep 1 2011, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping's generally is an exploit in games that people find fun, so it is not removed.
From a game design point of view it should never be included in a game. You do not add features that are not explained or are 'hidden' from new comers. Also movement in FPS game's should not require skilled techniques like bunny hopping, the skill focus should remain on actual primary game play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that's true at all. From a game design point of view any mechanic which adds depth to the game can be considered beneficial, regardless if that mechanic came about by accident.
I don't know what you mean by "primary" gameplay. IMO in a game like NS2 where you have 1 team that is almost all melee then there needs to be some way for them to get closer to the enemy that takes skill. Since you don't need good aiming for melee weapons the skill needs to come from getting in range and avoiding being shot.
I think a lot of the points about it being inaccessible to new players and looking strange are completely valid. However, that doesn't mean the core mechanic is bad. It is possible that it could now be implemented in such a way that these things would no longer be a problem. If you look at what Valve are doing with the new CS:GO casual mode, they are making it more accessible to newer players without dumbing down or removing core mechanics. That's the best of both world - accessibility and depth. I'm not saying NS2 needs different modes, just illustrating that both things can be achieved without damaging one another.
<!--quoteo(post=1872552:date=Sep 1 2011, 06:35 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 1 2011, 06:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the first time I've seen anyone in one of these threads have the balls to do that, kudos to you. I'm not sure where I'm being elitist, feel free to point it out, but I think you're confusing the term or at least not using it in a fair way. If I was being elitist, I would simply say "learn to play noob". Instead I've taken the time to write long and thorough replies explaining the issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->When people say things like this: "This is where you betray your complete lack of knowledge about the subject at hand" it's inevitably going to get people irritated, especially since it pretty much flat out tells someone "You don't know what you're talking about." This isn't calling someone out, it's insulting them. Especially since before the post was written I had detailed exactly what I meant (and people can see BH in action in NS1 videos.) The paragraph you had that attached to could have easily gone entirely without it and been more impactful. I know we all get exasperated, but I think it would be good to start up a good forum decorum, myself included.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't disagree with that at all. Bunnyhopping being unintuitive in NS is one of the arguments against it that actually stick. I also believe however that this can be remedied in NS2. Quake style jump queueing and tutorials have already been suggested, and I'm sure we could come up with other ways to make it easier and more natural to learn as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see why it couldn't be taught, they taught you how to ski in Tribes, I do think the CS style is a little... clumsy for general consumption though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're misunderstanding my argument. I'm not saying that wallhopping can't be effective. If you wanted to, you could make it overpowered easily enough. It is however not a deep skill. It doesn't take a long time to master. I've already gone over why it's important to have depth in earlier posts and in the article.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think were misunderstanding each other entirely. I like wall hopping, I think it adds a very distinct alien feel to things its attached too and I found it worked very well in AVP2010. If bunny hopping looks right, there's no reason you couldn't have both to maximize the alien movement, so you'd have loping skulk transitioning from wall to floor to ceiling with inhuman grace. You already said it before, bunny hopping and wall leaping probably work best together, my only issue is dismissing AVP2010 as an example, the games down fall wasn't due to its movement scheme, that felt natural, flowing, and very immersive, it was due to it's failure to support PC dedicated servers early on, balance problems, weird melee scheme, assassination conga lines, and total lack of support after launch. It was, in effect, a slightly premature but survivable (and fixable) game that was instead left to die by Sega.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I completely agree that catering to competitive players alone would be disastrous for the games popularity. But then again, nobody here is arguing that the game should cater only to competitive players. If you read the article, as you claim you did, you would know that that isn't part of the argument at all. Instead I would have to flip it around and ask you if it's a good idea for the game to solely cater to casual players (people who only play a couple of hours a week), which is what you're doing if you're not adding depth to the game. That depth doesn't have to be bunnyhopping, but there aren't a lot of game mechanics that can compete with it in terms of depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not about the article, I know there are lots of clan and pro-gamers who play, I was just today watching Anagrams matches against HBZ on their site, and having people who are really into the game is great, but it has to be accepted that not everyone can or wants to play to that level of gameplay. That's a big reason why I feel we can't go overboard on depth, depth is great, but there has to remain some level of accessibility by casual gamers so they don't drop into a server and get lost and annihilated because they're not really certain what's going on. NS2's learning curve is already fairly steep. Granted, you can make an absolute ton of money off casual gamers (The Sims) NS2 isn't exactly that type of game. I think tutorials will be helpful but I also don't think BH/Wall leap should grant huge benefits (because then you end up with too large of a capability gap based on skill, which maybe while deserved, is very off putting) or it should be easy to pick up to an acceptable modicum of skill.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Wait, this thread is still going on? Let's fix that. Please see the Dev response on page 2. Bhop will not be going back in, in its 'classic' state. There are plans for other skill-based movement system(s), but bhop is not one of them.
Ok, I don't want to disregard the forum admins, but I've been asked to reopen this topic. The debate has been, for the most part, fairly civil, and there is some interesting discussion going on. If, perhaps a bit on the repetitive side.
Anyway, keep playing nice, carry out the conversation without name calling and putting down those with opposing views, and the thread will stay open.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm already fed up with the darkness of current NS2-maps. NS2 has more than enough atmosphere to go by, no need to go handicap gameplay to shove even more in there, you'll just kill the community long-term (FYI Alien vs Predator is pretty dead at this point).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree - the first 100hours was fun and all but slowly (200+ hours) darkness gets annoying... Only playing with flashlight (light range could be longer btw) or alienvision...
@bhop stuff: Skulks everywhere are already spamming the jump key in ns2(myself included) - we miss bhop i guess. (even the ones argumenting against it are doing it - im 100% sure)
<!--quoteo(post=1872563:date=Sep 1 2011, 06:04 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a big reason why I feel we can't go overboard on depth, depth is great, but there has to remain some level of accessibility by casual gamers so they don't drop into a server and get lost and annihilated because they're not really certain what's going on. NS2's learning curve is already fairly steep. Granted, you can make an absolute ton of money off casual gamers (The Sims) NS2 isn't exactly that type of game. I think tutorials will be helpful but I also don't think BH/Wall leap should grant huge benefits (because then you end up with too large of a capability gap based on skill, which maybe while deserved, is very off putting) or it should be easy to pick up to an acceptable modicum of skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you need to choose one or the other (accessibility or depth). I think it's possible to have both without damaging each other.
Accessibility is great but if there's no depth then people will stop playing fairly quickly. I think it's funny how there seems to be a big discussion on movement skill but you would never hear the same about aiming. Should we dull down aiming in the game because it makes it inaccessible to new players? Lets make every gun like the flame-thrower where you just spray and pray and require no real accuracy. That would make it more accessible to new players but completely remove depth. The game would become boring very quickly.
Obviously no one likes being stomped on by players who are much better than them. Yet that is an inevitability in a well designed game. If that skill difference didn't exist then the game would be boring and no one would play it. Multiplayer games are interesting and fun because you are trying to outplay your opponent. The more areas in which you can outplay your opponent, the better. Very enjoyable mechanics are those that are impossible to master, but if performed exceptionally well players can pull off some very impressive things. Aiming is a perfect example of this. It's impossible to aim 100% accurately all the time - that is beyond human potential. Yet, the very best FPS players can pull off crazy unbelievable shots and make it look easy.
The same thing is happening when two beginners play against each other as when two pros do. They are both trying to out perform each other at the game mechanics. If the game mechanics lack depth then players will get to a point where they can perform them optimally and it will become boring, as it will be impossible for them to out perform their opponent.
Making the game accessible should be about helping new players understand how to play and how the mechanics work. Not removing or dulling down the core of the game.
I can't bunnyhop. I never played NS1 or any game that required it. I'm not really attached to this mechanic, but I'm interested in this discussion from a game design point of view. I'd like to see UWE create the best game possible and for me that's a game that is deep, requires practice and is impossible to master. Whether that includes bunnyhop or any other movement mechanics is up to them.
<!--quoteo(post=1872644:date=Sep 2 2011, 04:36 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Sep 2 2011, 04:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks everywhere are already spamming the jump key in ns2(myself included) - we miss bhop i guess. (even the ones argumenting against it are doing it - im 100% sure)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. I hate this but it's currently the best method to avoid being hit. Marines and skulks just mash the space bar and hope that they don't die before the other player.
Comments
The good ones are all over the place, glitching their animation between walls/ceiling/floor and taking you out, bite by bite.
The "normal" ones run towards you or ambush you and pretty much run in circles or randomly dart back and forth until either you or they are dead.
The animation exploit give those who know about it an advantage over those who don't know about it. In other words, skill based movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
reminds me of bunnyhop before it became common knowledge :D
They do add things, but something as complex as a counterpart of aiming skill isn't something you add overnight or with little superficial features and detail adjustments. For example the bhop itself starts from the very way the engine handles movement and that's part of what makes it extremely satisfying, versatile, precise and in some ways also very intuitive and natural once you get past a certain barrier. If such system barely held itself in scaling against the marine system I'm not sure what kind of success some late beta feature pasted on top of the pile is going to achieve.
In my books this is way bigger than for example the DI which was already hastily prototyped into the game. The melee team movement goes to the core of very fundamentals of how NS works as FPS.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They're working on a wall bounding system designed to shift skulks quickly from surface to surface to gain speed and make him a hard target without it becoming a hop fest. The fade teleports obviously and the Lerk flies, both of which require skill to remain evasive and to strike at the proper position. The skulk is really the only one left without, and his fix is coming. You'll have your skill based movement, it's just going to look right for the atmosphere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Many people have expressed their doubts about the wallhopping as a sufficient replacement. It's a good feature, but it seems like an unlikely feature to work as a backbone of something meant to compete with the whole challenge of marine aiming. If it works, then so be it, but I'd like to get to test it sooner rather than later because the chances are that it will not go right on the first try and even if it does it still takes a while to make the rest of the lifeform blend in with the movement.
Every game eventually breaks from atmosphere as you begin to get used to it. Stay on a beautiful island for more than a month and the "atmosphere becomes stale and dull. (i should know, im on one.) Without good gameplay atmosphere wont save the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ultimately bunny hopping is jump spamming, granted at specific intervals, it still requires jumping over and over and over. Regardless, how its referred to isn't relevant to what it ultimately is, an antiquated and thematically inappropriate style of movement that can be replaced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You still go on with the crap. It only shows your ignorance and stupidity. Read what people are writing instead of sprinting to where you can waste peoples time with repeated slanders and walls of text. Just jumping and timing jump will not get you bunny hopping. At least pretend to know what you are talking about. Everyone who knows how to BH knows you are full of it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The evidence is all around the forums, you'll constantly see people screaming "This isn't MWF2!" "Go back to Battlefield 2 kid!" If they were arguing for it solely because it had depth then they wouldn't have an issue examining the already present depth in the plethora of movement around. They wouldn't be against bunny hop being replaced by wall bounding for skulks. The team is already working on a thematically appropriate alternative yet people are still complaining, if the depth makes it fun and the depth is still around/being introduced in new forms there's no reason to complain. Evidence points instead to it being a matter of it not being depth, but it not being <b>bunny hop</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The screaming is for a lot of threads not just BHing, don't generalize to make your weak point. All i can see being done with wall jumping is a kinda of pogo stick motion rebounding against each wall gaining speed upon hitting another wall. Talk about looking stupid? But since you know nothing about bunny hopping other than "jump spam" you will not understand. You will love wall jump!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uh huh. So the flying, teleporting, and wall walking are not interesting types of movement? UWE has done more for movement in this one game than almost any game has done in years. Once again evidence is against you, UWE has at this current point, 3 unique types of movement (flying, teleportation, wall walking) besides the standard jump and run, while the games people get misty eyed about, Quake, Unreal, don't even match that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You cant even begin to use this as an argument. So you are saying NS2 has more movement because it has different classes? Of course lerks fly. They have wings. Teleporting? Really... The fades movement system is so awkward let alone, in the players eyes, you don't teleport. It is just accelerated forward movement (like a sprint) but you are invisible. So there are two types of movement. Good try though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They're working on a wall bounding system designed to shift skulks quickly from surface to surface to gain speed and make him a hard target without it becoming a hop fest. The fade teleports obviously and the Lerk flies, both of which require skill to remain evasive and to strike at the proper position. The skulk is really the only one left without, and his fix is coming. You'll have your skill based movement, it's just going to look right for the atmosphere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The lerk is the only system currently that requires skill to move. What we are saying is put BH in so that we can have our skill based movement. Once they want to add wall bouncing they can take it out. That way when wall bouncing fails we can put BH back in. But you don't know what BHing is.
Though Tempest had a good point. As the game is now BH isn't needed. But maps are going to get as big or bigger than NS1 maps and will be needed then.
Plus as others have said once the performance (server and client) is fixed skulks will be even easier to hit than in NS1 due to their increased size. Wall bouncing wont help with without air control which BH had.
It made the game incredibly tense because you knew they were around somewhere, but you didn't know exactly where and you knew he was coming to finish you off. Seeing that skulks are vastly smaller than the xenos in AVP I think it should work fine, my only problem with the current skulk is I don't get a reorienting camera which really helps to tell you what surface you're on.
Without good atmosphere the game becomes ridiculous and unimmersive and thus uninteresting. You need both.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You still go on with the crap. It only shows your ignorance and stupidity. Read what people are writing instead of sprinting to where you can waste peoples time with repeated slanders and walls of text. Just jumping and timing jump will not get you bunny hopping. At least pretend to know what you are talking about. Everyone who knows how to BH knows you are full of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, bunny hopping was exactly this. You'd crouch, jump while strafing and try to move down hill to gain speed. You also change the angle of your aim side to side while doing so. You can also serpentine to avoid fire. In quake it was even spammier with pogo jumping. Ultimately bunny hopping is jumping over and over again and no matter how much you flame people for saying the truth, that's what it is. The fact that it's full of such unintuitive nonsense is reason enough to leave it out. Whose going to jump into NS2 and see a bunch of people bouncing and around and think "Oh, I just need to leap, change view angle, and jump again reversing the angle and move forward to gain speed!" There's nothing ignorant or stupid about it being called what it is. An antiquated glitch. What makes you so incapable of being able to succeed within the confines of the actual game parameters. Games have rules, if you can't play within them and win, that's really not a problem with the game. It's like arguing that someone should change the rules of monopoly because you don't feel you're going far enough when you in particular roll the dice.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The screaming is for a lot of threads not just BHing, don't generalize to make your weak point. All i can see being done with wall jumping is a kinda of pogo stick motion rebounding against each wall gaining speed upon hitting another wall. Talk about looking stupid? But since you know nothing about bunny hopping other than "jump spam" you will not understand. You will love wall jump!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you ever seen Aliens? A good example of wall leaping is shown at the end when Ripley is in the hive and an alien comes rebounding from wall to wall, and it frankly looks amazing. Calling me names because I don't glorify bunny hopping is really just hurting you.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You cant even begin to use this as an argument. So you are saying NS2 has more movement because it has different classes? Of course lerks fly. They have wings. Teleporting? Really... The fades movement system is so awkward let alone, in the players eyes, you don't teleport. It is just accelerated forward movement (like a sprint) but you are invisible. So there are two types of movement. Good try though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't strafe or turn well while phased, you can't air brake, and you can't gain speed by swooping. Teleport and Fly are two different movement styles. One is very direct, fast, with low precision, the other is fast, with high precision but indirect.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lerk is the only system currently that requires skill to move. What we are saying is put BH in so that we can have our skill based movement. Once they want to add wall bouncing they can take it out. That way when wall bouncing fails we can put BH back in. But you don't know what BHing is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again you fall back on constantly repeating the same platitudes without actual evidence about why I'm apparently so ignorant. I know what bunny hopping is, I've explained it, and you just run around screaming "No you're just stupid and ignorant!" For someone so fixated on demanding evidence you seem to be doing nothing but flaming me based on your own lack of understanding of what I'm even saying. Lerks, Fades, and Skulks all require skill to move properly and evasively. A Fade can easily snag as can the lerk, and precision movement with the fade can be especially hard, much harder than I've ever found BH to be.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Though Tempest had a good point. As the game is now BH isn't needed. But maps are going to get as big or bigger than NS1 maps and will be needed then.
Plus as others have said once the performance (server and client) is fixed skulks will be even easier to hit than in NS1 due to their increased size. Wall bouncing wont help with without air control which BH had.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wall bouncing gives acceleration which makes you harder to hit and changes the angle of attack making you a much more difficult target. It does everything bunny hopping did.
Dude, bunny hopping was exactly this. You'd crouch, jump while strafing and try to move down hill to gain speed. While doing so you can also serpentine to avoid fire. In quake it was even spammier with pogo jumping. Ultimately bunny hopping is jumping over and over again and no matter how much you flame people for saying the truth, that's what it is. There's nothing ignorant or stupid about it.
Have you ever seen Aliens? A good example of wall leaping is shown at the end when Ripley is in the hive and an alien comes rebounding from wall to wall, and it frankly looks amazing. Calling me names because I don't glorify bunny hopping is really just hurting you.
You can't strafe or turn well while phased, you can't air brake, and you can't gain speed by swooping. Teleport and Fly are two different movement styles. One is very direct, fast, with low precision, the other is fast, with high precision but indirect.
Once again you fall back on constantly repeating the same platitudes without actual evidence about why I'm apparently so ignorant. I know what bunny hopping is, I've explained it, and you just run around screaming "No you're just stupid and ignorant!" For someone so fixated on demanding evidence you seem to be doing nothing but flaming me based on your own lack of understanding of what I'm even saying. Lerks, Fades, and Skulks all require skill to move properly and evasively. A Fade can easily snag as can the lerk, and precision movement with the fade can be especially hard, much harder than I've ever found BH to be.
Wall bouncing gives acceleration which makes you harder to hit and changes the angle of attack making you a much more difficult target. It does everything bunny hopping did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All i said in the naming category is this: "It only shows your ignorance and stupidity" Which is true. You didnt describe bunny hopping at all. Crouch was only used to not stick to wall, down hill didnt matter, strafing was a apart of it, but you missed the most important part. Air control and mastering the motions there in. (but i am by no means a master at this skill and dont understand every angle to it. I can not do it as well as the pros but i can mimic pretty well and gain the speed i want. I will leave it to them to spell it out to you.)
Oh and btw if i dont point out every thing wrong with your posts it is because it has been pointed out above. It doesnt make you right. So i will leave you to your ignorance. By your posts you use those oh so irregular words but cant hide the fact that you are quite uninformed and against reading what others have written. Are you related to another person on this forum perhaps that i love so much?
Once something is implemented we can revisit this topic again. Im sure you will fight to the death for the new system because if that fails we all know you dont have an alternative other than irrational ramblings.
Believe it or not more than one game has bunny hop and they don't all work the same way. Hills were big in Tribes ski jumping which was similar in effect.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->strafing was a apart of it, but you missed the most important part. Air control and mastering the motions there in. (but i am by no means a master at this skill and dont understand every angle to it. I can not do it as well as the pros but i can mimic pretty well and gain the speed i want. I will leave it to them to spell it out to you.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The motions are a back and forth sway between right to left where you essentially strafe in partial circles before swooping about in the opposite direction to gain speed. A way you'd practice this in CS (besides getting a BH map) was by finding crates with one crate intersecting and leaping from one crate to the next by curving around the intervening crate. That's how the HL engine BH work, quake wasn't the same, nor was Tribes original variant.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh and btw if i dont point out every thing wrong with your posts it is because it has been pointed out above. It doesnt make you right. So i will leave you to your ignorance. By your posts you use those oh so irregular words but cant hide the fact that you are quite uninformed and against reading what others have written. Are you related to another person on this forum perhaps that i love so much?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh huh, so in short you don't actually have a response save to claim someone else has made it for you. I've explained bunny hopping in detail to you, a skill you, by admission, don't even understand entirely. A note, running around calling people names without giving any evidence is not an argument, it's a surrender.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once something is implemented we can revisit this topic again. Im sure you will fight to the death for the new system because if that fails we all know you dont have an alternative other than irrational ramblings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->And you don't have an alternative other than the crutch of bunny hopping because you can't function in a game without an artificial edge? This is UWE's system they're adding, and I support it because it maintains atmosphere. You haven't done anything other than flame me without actually giving any reason why, when pressed you fled from the question claiming others had made the points. When you're ready to stop running for actual discourse with reasoning, not just name calling, I'll be around. Until then all you've done is shown you can't debate the point, you just hurl invectives and hope it distracts people from the fact you don't have anything better to say.
I also think its stupid that marines can shoot so well without actually aiming with iron sight. All the other games have iron sights why not NS2 (please dont add it).
<u><b>Bunny Hopping </b></u>
<u>Pros</u>
- Gain speed through a combination of inputs from the player.
- Gain Maneuverability
- High skill cap (easy to learn, hard to master)
- Fun
<u>Cons</u>
- Immersion breaking
- An exploit from a previous engine
- Not intuitive
- Hard to hit due to hit box distortion
Feel free to add to the list.
Immersion Breaking - It wouldnt be if the devs planned for an implemented BHing. It would be then apart of the core mechanic and could be given good animations. So that Argument may have worked in NS1 but not now.
Exploit - So what? It was adopted into normal game play. If, like above, it was implemented from the start it would not be an exploit.
Not Intuitive - I agree, bu ti do like have to learn how to do it and it not being given to me on a pretty plate with a note telling me "Edible". But that is opinion. Which will vary.
Hit box distortion - This would be interesting to see with the new net code and engine. This could probably be worked out. But i am no programmer and know little in this regard. This would be the only real gripe. It is one thing to move to you cant be hit but another to purposely move in a way that makes you unhittable (in regards to where the player sees your model and should be shooting).
<!--quoteo(post=1872476:date=Sep 1 2011, 11:37 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 11:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course it's valid. Atmosphere plays a major part of a game. That's why rifles in NS2 don't fire rainbows and flowers, skulks don't sound like wet farts, and disco music doesn't play in the main menu. With increasing graphical capability comes increasing expectations of better looking games and better immersion. NS1 was made with half-life's engine, everything looked goofy in half-life, so NS1 made do. The spark engine is a vast improvement and thus more is expected.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here we go again. The same tired old arguments that don't actually have any weight. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised anymore, one of the first thing one learns on the Internet is that you don't need to have any knowledge to have opinions.
Of course atmosphere matters. But so what? Is there some rule that says bunnyhopping has to look "goofy"? No. In fact you don't have to look any further than nature on earth to find examples of creatures that move about using jumping motions. It shouldn't be difficult to add jump animations that make bunnyhopping look perfectly natural for the skulk.
That said, in a multiplayer game, you also have to accept a certain amount of "goofy"-ness. The only way to remove that, would be to limit player control over their ingame avatars so much that you might as well just make them NPCs. Play one round of NS2 beta and it won't take you long to find something that looks even more "goofy" than bunnyhopping: marines and skulks spastically jumping around more or less randomly to make them harder to hit.
<!--quoteo(post=1872476:date=Sep 1 2011, 11:37 AM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 11:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is a crutch, everyone has the a set movement speed they are intended to move at. You can climb up walls, jump over things, and eventually <b>fly around in the freaking sky.</b> The fade is a hairs breadth away from practically <b>walking through walls.</b> There's nothing drab and slow about the movement in NS2, people are getting upset because they can't cheat the system to get even faster than intended movement by spamming space bar. People keep claiming there's all these movement problems, that people feel sluggish, what do you want from this game? Why not just turn no-clip on permanently if it's that restricting, then everyone can fly through walls and nothing will slow you down. There's nothing drab about the movement, you can do all sorts of things, especially with aliens, if you can't handle spending some time on the ground not moving at hyper-speed I don't see how you play any shooter that isn't Unreal Tournament.
Bunny Hopping is a crutch. It's a hold over from older times that allowed players to spam a button to move faster. People are refusing to give it up because its comfortable and familiar and plainly effective. But that is not sufficient reason to keep it around when it violates the atmosphere of the game.
You want skill based movement, they're making it, you want bunny hopping, its obviously not in the game, its time for people to start accepting that and exploring the new opportunities they're giving you (jump packs, flying, teleportation, wall running) and move on, leave bunny hop in the museum, where it belongs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is where you betray your complete lack of knowledge about the subject at hand. Bunnyhopping has never been a crutch or "cheating the system". It was intentionally left in the game for NS and the gameplay was balanced around its use. If you had bothered to read a little before furiously typing out all your uninformed opinions I wouldn't have to waste my time correcting your misinformation (and you are not the only one, in fact I have yet to see a single opponent of bunnyhopping that doesn't leverage his argument on a factual error, either because he doesn't know better or because he is lying).
As multiple posters have already stated, and should be abundantly clear anyway, bunnyhopping is only one of many techniques a good NS player had to master. Anyone trying to use his skill at bunnyhopping as a crutch for his lack of other skills would be at a huge disadvantage. Bad players often use the "bunnyhop crutch/exploit" belief as an "argument" when they're frustrated at being unable to compete against better players. It is apparently inconceivable to them that they are losing because they aren't good enough -- there must be some sort of trickery or cheating involved! FACT IS, said better player is most likely better than the frustrated player in every part of the game. The players you see destroying your team with their "bunnyhop crutch" are also experts at using all the other movement systems in the game as well, not to mention ambushing which is an integral part of competitive NS.
Furthermore you claim that we use bunnyhopping to "get even faster than intended movement (again, this is wrong: bunnyhopping IS intended movement in NS) by spamming space bar", which makes it obvious that you don't know how bunnyhopping actually works. Timing the jumps is the easiest part. You can learn that in a matter of days. The difficult part, the part that makes it deep, enganging and actually balances the game, is learning the nuances of "air control" and how to use it in combat. I played NS at the top level for eight years and I still can't claim to have perfected it. What's even better is that it enhances and synergizes perfectly with the other skills required to play NS. It is a movement system that takes a while to learn, but a lifetime to master, to paraphrase the Othello slogan. With a little work from the developers side, I'm sure we could make it a moment to learn, but a lifetime to master instead, which should be the gold standard for any game mechanic.
You also claim that we should "(accept) and (explore) the new opportunities they're giving (us)". I find this an odd argument since they haven't actually given us any new opportunities yet. All the "opportunities" you mention were present in NS too. Compared to the "a while to learn, but a liftetime to master" for bunnyhopping, these have the quality of "a moment to learn, a couple of months to master". They have little depth and a dedicated player will quickly master the few nuances there are.
There is still the question of the new skill based movement system UWE wants to implement, but considering no one has been able to find an adequate replacement for bunnyhopping in the 15 or so years since it was discovered, and since we still haven't seen anything tangible about it even though they've been talking about it for years, I'm not going to hold my breath.
<!--quoteo(post=1872491:date=Sep 1 2011, 12:56 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Sep 1 2011, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skills that are unintuitive and not gained by playing the game do not represent skill at that game, merely represents the fact the player is willing to go to extra effort to research and discover glitches and advantages over other players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your argument is false, there is no reason why we can't make bunnyhopping more intuitive.
<!--quoteo(post=1872503:date=Sep 1 2011, 01:46 PM:name=Nixxen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nixxen @ Sep 1 2011, 01:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could argue that skulks already have skill-based movement.
The good ones are all over the place, glitching their animation between walls/ceiling/floor and taking you out, bite by bite.
The "normal" ones run towards you or ambush you and pretty much run in circles or randomly dart back and forth until either you or they are dead.
The animation exploit give those who know about it an advantage over those who don't know about it. In other words, skill based movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is kind of like saying that opening a cardboard box takes skill -- sure it does, but it's not exactly a deep skill. It takes a few moments to learn for someone who's never done it before, and then there's nothing more to do with it.
Pros:
1: Active movement vs passive movement for more engaging game play.
2: If properly animated and added, adds for much more disturbing and tense encounters with aliens (IE wall jump to attack from various angles) thus increasing atmospheric immersion. (There's no reason an alien should move just like a human, as long as he doesn't look silly it can enhance the alien aspect.)
3: Thematically separates classes by giving them very distinct styles of movement which also subconsciously instruct players in their use without needing tons of boring text. In short, softens learning curve. A wall leaping/bunny hopping skulk that looks right gives the impression of a very fast, agile predator which helps players tune into their particular classes skills and abilities.
4: Balances increase in enemy aiming skill with increase in movement skill thus preventing games with skilled players from devolving into ambush only.
Cons:
1: Annoying method of control. Mouse movements and and strafe jumping combined make it feel very artificial and clumsy. When ski jumping was fully integrated into Tribes it felt very natural and flowed well, HL style bunny hopping does not.
2: Can make too large of a skill gap between new players and older players driving away (paying) players from the game thus detracting from financial success and longevity.
I personally don't think that its an exploit from an older engine should be considered a con, as its really a neutral point. I do think what should in its place is:
3: Because it was an exploit from an earlier engine people may take its introduction as a signal to bring back other unwelcome features that accompanied bunny hopping (Scripts.)
<!--quoteo(post=1872527:date=Sep 1 2011, 04:45 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 1 2011, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here we go again. The same tired old arguments that don't actually have any weight. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised anymore, one of the first thing one learns on the Internet is that you don't need to have any knowledge to have opinions.
Of course atmosphere matters. But so what? Is there some rule that says bunnyhopping has to look "goofy"? No. In fact you don't have to look any further than nature on earth to find examples of creatures that move about using jumping motions. It shouldn't be difficult to add jump animations that make bunnyhopping look perfectly natural for the skulk.
That said, in a multiplayer game, you also have to accept a certain amount of "goofy"-ness. The only way to remove that, would be to limit player control over their ingame avatars so much that you might as well just make them NPCs. Play one round of NS2 beta and it won't take you long to find something that looks even more "goofy" than bunnyhopping: marines and skulks spastically jumping around more or less randomly to make them harder to hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THANK YOU GOD! Finally! Yes, that is EXACTLY what I mean. <u>I don't care about bunny hopping as a subject</u>, I care how it looks. If it looks <u>good</u> ADD IT. I'm not bringing up atmosphere so I can turn around and pretend I never mentioned it. I'm bringing it up because it's a sticking point. What do you constantly see in bunny hopping complaint threads? "It looks really dumb." If it doesn't look dumb, then there is no problem.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is where you betray your complete lack of knowledge about the subject at hand. Bunnyhopping has never been a crutch or "cheating the system". It was intentionally left in the game for NS and the gameplay was balanced around its use. If you had bothered to read a little before furiously typing out all your uninformed opinions I wouldn't have to waste my time correcting your misinformation (and you are not the only one, in fact I have yet to see a single opponent of bunnyhopping that doesn't leverage his argument on a factual error, either because he doesn't know better or because he is lying).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was in CS where I encountered it quite heavily. I got pretty decent with it too, but then I realized I was wasting my time with CS when hackers started coming in droves.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As multiple posters have already stated, and should be abundantly clear anyway, bunnyhopping is only one of many techniques a good NS player had to master. Anyone trying to use his skill at bunnyhopping as a crutch for his lack of other skills would be at a huge disadvantage. Bad players often use the "bunnyhop crutch/exploit" belief as an "argument" when they're frustrated at being unable to compete against better players. It is apparently inconceivable to them that they are losing because they aren't good enough -- there must be some sort of trickery or cheating involved! FACT IS, said better player is most likely better than the frustrated player in every part of the game. The players you see destroying your team with their "bunnyhop crutch" are also experts at using all the other movement systems in the game as well, not to mention ambushing which is an integral part of competitive NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was pretty evident which ones were using it as a crutch. They'd get stuck because they didn't know lay outs, they'd think BH was god mode, and they'd get shot because they didn't combine with serpentine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Furthermore you claim that we use bunnyhopping to "get even faster than intended movement (again, this is wrong: bunnyhopping IS intended movement in NS) by spamming space bar", which makes it obvious that you don't know how bunnyhopping actually works. Timing the jumps is the easiest part. You can learn that in a matter of days. The difficult part, the part that makes it deep, enganging and actually balances the game, is learning the nuances of "air control" and how to use it in combat. I played NS at the top level for eight years and I still can't claim to have perfected it. What's even better is that it enhances and synergizes perfectly with the other skills required to play NS. It is a movement system that takes a while to learn, but a lifetime to master, to paraphrase the Othello slogan. With a little work from the developers side, I'm sure we could make it a moment to learn, but a lifetime to master instead, which should be the gold standard for any game mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In CS it was not intended, BH was ultimately an engine bug and the sooner you come to accept that the sooner you'll be at peace with it. There were whole maps dedicated to practicing Bunny Hopping and all the training that you went through to get good at it was because it was fundamentally unintuitive movement. I actually gave a much more in depth explanation of what it was because apparently broad strokes weren't enough.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You also claim that we should "(accept) and (explore) the new opportunities they're giving (us)". I find this an odd argument since they haven't actually given us any new opportunities yet. All the "opportunities" you mention were present in NS too. Compared to the "a while to learn, but a liftetime to master" for bunnyhopping, these have the quality of "a moment to learn, a couple of months to master". They have little depth and a dedicated player will quickly master the few nuances there are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you'll soon be fighting against servers full of masters and it shouldn't be a problem then should it. Bunny hopping is hard to manage because its unintuitive. Just because it takes a long time to master doesn't make it good, it just makes it difficult.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is still the question of the new skill based movement system UWE wants to implement, but considering no one has been able to find an adequate replacement for bunnyhopping in the 15 or so years since it was discovered, and since we still haven't seen anything tangible about it even though they've been talking about it for years, I'm not going to hold my breath.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They haven't been bothering because they've left it behind with the march of time.
The funny thing is that bhop itself is quite predictable in some ways, especially from the netcode viewpoint. You can't make very rapid changes in direction, which makes the network prediction and lag compensation part work reliably.
Without bhop the most effective way to fight is usually to spam left and right strafes, which is makes the netcode prediction go absolutely crazy. That kind of dodging isn't fun, immersive or skill based to any great extends.
I don't know if the modern netcodes can handle the prediction part better, but it's strongly related to the general latency of connections, so basically any prediction based netcode has some issues with the left/right strafe spam and high speed aliens highlight that problem quite effectively.
---
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Azimath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azimath)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cons:
1: Annoying method of control. Mouse movements and and strafe jumping combined make it feel very artificial and clumsy. When ski jumping was fully integrated into Tribes it felt very natural and flowed well, HL style bunny hopping does not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's kind of like learning to swim. At first nothing makes sense and everything feels awkward as you're unfamiliar to the element. It takes a short while to get your brain adapt into the game world.
However, once you start figuring it out, it becomes <b>by far</b> the most natural, precise and fluently flowing movement system I've experienced in any game during my 10+ years of gaming. The skill challenge aside, things I miss in NS2 are exactly the flow and natural feel of movement. If you ever watch me play NS1, you'll see me playing around with the movement all the time because it's such a wonderful, natural and fluent system in its own way. I also do a lot of little stuff halfway instinctually because of how natural the system is once you get the feel of it.
Had you played CS a bit further I think you would've found the thing there. At least looking at the present gamers even pubbers seem often quite natural with the system - to be completely honest more natural on the CS enviroment than I am.
We could have a lot more discussion about how to remove the awkward starting point if only we didn't have to keep dodging strawmen, correcting false facts and arguing about the clear benefits of the system.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3: Because it was an exploit from an earlier engine people may take its introduction as a signal to bring back other unwelcome features that accompanied bunny hopping (Scripts.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I've at least once even in this very thread mentioned about the quake styled queued jump timing, which removes the only element where bhop even could be scripted. If you're worried about scripting, the pistol is the thing you want to be worried about.
I'm just going to go out on a limb here but I think you don't even know how to bunnyhop. In fact, I'm going to generalize pretty much everyone that doesn't like the idea as people that either don't know how to bunnyhop or were just horrendous at it and never took the time to really learn it.
But yeah, I do agree that it should be made significantly easier to learn (similar to skiing from Tribes to Tribes 2). Allow jump queuing and/or holding the jump button down, give it some better animations as well as a built in tutorial, pretty much anything that would bring it up to modern day standards.
And moving on back to Visionz (not trying to call you out man, just using you as an example), you said you were an ex-exigent player who was fluent in bunnyhopping in NS1. Yet when we loaded up ze_marinebhop again a few weeks ago you couldn't do the first jump after like 10 minutes of attempts. Anyone who could actually bunnyhop (and this is pretty much a binary skill, there was certainly a skill ceiling but it was largely a "could or couldn't" type thing) would have easily been able to do that.
tl;dr MOST of the people against any form of bunnyhopping never actually bunnyhopped in ns1.
Against hitscan weapons, serpentine doesn't make you much harder to hit. The difference only becomes apparent when a player who is good at bunnyhopping comes up against a player who doesn't know how to aim well. Seems pretty obvious who should come out on top of that duel.
<!--quoteo(post=1872528:date=Sep 1 2011, 03:46 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In CS it was not intended, BH was ultimately an engine bug and the sooner you come to accept that the sooner you'll be at peace with it. There were whole maps dedicated to practicing Bunny Hopping and all the training that you went through to get good at it was because it was fundamentally unintuitive movement. I actually gave a much more in depth explanation of what it was because apparently broad strokes weren't enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're not talking about CS here, or Quake or Tribes for that matter. We're talking about the sequel to Natural Selection. Obviously NS2 needs to be a different game, but the natural point of reference is the original game. When you keep saying that it is a glitch and an exploit and a cheat, when it actually wasn't in the original game, you're spreading misinformation and frankly you should apologize. It's because of people like you that every time this debate pops up on the forums, we have to spend half the thread correcting all the misinformation and it's ruining the debate.
<!--quoteo(post=1872528:date=Sep 1 2011, 03:46 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then you'll soon be fighting against servers full of masters and it shouldn't be a problem then should it. Bunny hopping is hard to manage because its unintuitive. Just because it takes a long time to master doesn't make it good, it just makes it difficult.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The entire point is that you need something to keep people playing the game after the initial novelty of "marines in space and aliens!" wears off. If there's nothing more to learn, there really isn't any reason to keep playing the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1872528:date=Sep 1 2011, 03:46 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They haven't been bothering because they've left it behind with the march of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There have been plenty of attempts, but none have succeeded. You even mentioned the wallhopping in the new AVP yourself. Funnily enough that game is a horrible example of developers trying to implement new movement mechanics and failing miserably. Going into detail would take too long, but I will at least say that wallhopping in it self is no replacement for bunnyhopping as it offers no real depth. You can master it quickly and then there isn't anything left to learn.
If you add acceleration, timing and air control to the mix, it becomes deeper, but it is still limited by the fact that it is now simply mimicking bunnyhopping, in effect a limited bunnyhop. NS had very limited wallhopping, which synergized perfectly with bunnyhopping and the game mechanics that made bunnyhopping possible in the first place. The only pitfall was that it was severly limited in efficiency, probably in an attempt to balance it. With some improvements and combined with bunnyhopping, I'm certain it would work wonderfully in NS2.
I recommend you read the article I linked to in the the quote I posted in my first reply to you. You'll learn a lot about how bunnyhopping worked in NS and why we think it will improve NS2.
I think this will all be a lot better if everyone takes a nice deep breath and just accepts that some parts of peoples opinion aren't going to change and that other parts are more pliable.
I think this will all be a lot better if everyone takes a nice deep breath and just accepts that some parts of peoples opinion aren't going to change and that other parts are more pliable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Be careful not to confuse elitism with actual knowledge. Unfortunately a lot of people cry "elitism" when they're simply being told the truth. Certainly you're allowed to have an opinion, but when that opinion is based on a lack of knowledge, and you then use that to spread misinformation, you had better be prepared to be called out for it.
Every bit counts.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're not talking about CS here, or Quake or Tribes for that matter. We're talking about the sequel to Natural Selection. Obviously NS2 needs to be a different game, but the natural point of reference is the original game. When you keep saying that it is a glitch and an exploit and a cheat, when it actually wasn't in the original game, you're spreading misinformation and frankly you should apologize. It's because of people like you that every time this debate pops up on the forums, we have to spend half the thread correcting all the misinformation and it's ruining the debate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, I'll apologize and be very clear.
"I am sorry for generalizing that bunny hop was a bug or glitch/exploit/cheat. It's not in all games, some games it's actually a full part of game play. In my primary experience with it in CS it was an exploit, a glitch in the game engine. That it remained in NS1 despite it being well known in HL should be clear evidence it was intended to be used as such in NS1."
There. My experience is primarily with CS in this regard (though I played NS1.) I'd appreciate it if you showed the same courtesy by toning down the elitism.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wish you would stop throwing out these "arguments" without actually thinking first. The entire point is that you need something to keep people playing the game after the initial novelty of "marines in space and aliens!" wears off. If there's nothing more to learn, there really isn't any reason to keep playing the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you should have taken some time to understand what I was saying. Difficult does not mean good, unintuitive does not mean good. This has to do with the method by which bunny hopping is learned that's a problem. If it's a core skill in the game is must be presented clearly to players, it shouldn't be something you need to already be in the know about.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There have been plenty of attempts, but none have succeeded. You even mentioned the wallhopping in the new AVP yourself. Funnily enough that game is a horrible example of developers trying to implement new movement mechanics and failing miserably. Going into detail would take long, but I will at least say that wallhopping in it self is no replacement for bunnyhopping as it offers no real depth. You can master it quickly and then there isn't anything left to learn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess it's my turn to be doubtful. Have you even played the new AVP at all? Because by your comment it wouldn't seem so. Wall hopping worked extremely well and a skilled player could use it to traverse environments at lightning speed from floor to ceiling to wall, you could move so fast between areas, through vents, and around corners it was often hard for marines to even hit you until you got very close. Unlike bunny hopping however it didn't rely on complicated strafe+jump+turn+repeat maneuvers, instead you had to plan your routes out, be able to adjust immediately to new orientations, and transition smoothly to attack. In the first AVP this was similar to the forward leap+tail stab maneuvers that aliens would use to close distance immediately but requires extremely careful timing on both the attack and the jump itself, not to mention good aim.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you add acceleration, timing and air control to the mix, it becomes deeper, but it is still limited by the fact that is now simply mimicking bunnyhopping, in effect a limited bunnyhop. NS also had very limited wallhopping, which synergized perfectly with bunnyhopping and the game mechanics that mad bunnyhopping possible in the first place. The only pitfall was that it was severly limited in efficiency, probably in an attempt to balance it. With some improvements and combined with bunnyhopping, I'm certain it would work wonderfully in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is really something we'll have to see, like I've said so many times before, as long as it looks good, I don't care if its bunny hopping.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I recommend you read the article I linked to in the the quote I posted in my first reply to you. You'll learn a lot about how bunnyhopping worked in NS and why we think it will improve NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've read it before and it doesn't do much for me frankly because it doesn't address the really only concern how to make it not look stupid.
<!--quoteo(post=1872540:date=Sep 1 2011, 05:38 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Sep 1 2011, 05:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Be careful not to confuse elitism with actual knowledge. Unfortunately a lot of people cry "elitism" when they're simply being told the truth. Certainly you're allowed to have an opinion, but when that opinion is based on a lack of knowledge, and you then use that to spread misinformation, you had better be prepared to be called out for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Elitism is often a much larger factor of how the information is presented. You've read these boards, you know there are inevitably the replies of "Go play BF2 noob." or "This isn't MWF kid." Those are obnoxious elitist replies and typically from people who have nothing to be elitist about. I don't think new players coming to NS2 for the first time and pre-ordering are finding the boards or community all that appealing from the showing I've seen here. Hell, I've been playing games for some 18 years and even I find myself getting less and less sure of the game prospects (thus may not want to recommend it to my friends) because of some people who make up the community.
I know NS1 had and NS2 will most likely have a large clan/pro community but catering to those sorts of players alone may not be all that financially sound. I'd love to see Natural Selection become a great franchise of games and for UWE to become a name in development but I don't get the feeling that's what the future has in store. There's nothing wrong with accessibility in a game.
From a game design point of view it should never be included in a game. You do not add features that are not explained or are 'hidden' from new comers. Also movement in FPS game's should not require skilled techniques like bunny hopping, the skill focus should remain on actual primary game play.
Actually I think NS1 did things very well (despite it being due to the Gldsource-engine), maps weren't overly bright and thus still conveyed atmosphere, but at the same time were suitable for longevity as they didn't demand the constant use of a bloody flashlight (which is kinda the situation with NS2 now), I'm already fed up with the darkness of current NS2-maps. NS2 has more than enough atmosphere to go by, no need to go handicap gameplay to shove even more in there, you'll just kill the community long-term (FYI Alien vs Predator is pretty dead at this point).
<!--QuoteBegin-'Kalabalana'+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ('Kalabalana')</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From a game design point of view it should never be included in a game. You do not add features that are not explained or are 'hidden' from new comers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with that, NS1 did it a bit half-arsed by keeping bunnyhopping in but never really embracing it properly with a tutorial\built-in keybinds\automation.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also movement in FPS game's should not require skilled techniques like bunny hopping, the skill focus should remain on actual primary game play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1 didn't 'require' you to be able to bunnyhop, it was simply a major plus for the competitive-scene.
"I am sorry for generalizing that bunny hop was a bug or glitch/exploit/cheat. It's not in all games, some games it's actually a full part of game play. In my primary experience with it in CS it was an exploit, a glitch in the game engine. That it remained in NS1 despite it being well known in HL should be clear evidence it was intended to be used as such in NS1."
There. My experience is primarily with CS in this regard (though I played NS1.) I'd appreciate it if you showed the same courtesy by toning down the elitism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the first time I've seen anyone in one of these threads have the balls to do that, kudos to you. I'm not sure where I'm being elitist, feel free to point it out, but I think you're confusing the term or at least not using it in a fair way. If I was being elitist, I would simply say "learn to play noob". Instead I've taken the time to write long and thorough replies explaining the issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1872542:date=Sep 1 2011, 04:45 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe you should have taken some time to understand what I was saying. Difficult does not mean good, unintuitive does not mean good. This has to do with the method by which bunny hopping is learned that's a problem. If it's a core skill in the game is must be presented clearly to players, it shouldn't be something you need to already be in the know about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't disagree with that at all. Bunnyhopping being unintuitive in NS is one of the arguments against it that actually stick. I also believe however that this can be remedied in NS2. Quake style jump queueing and tutorials have already been suggested, and I'm sure we could come up with other ways to make it easier and more natural to learn as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1872542:date=Sep 1 2011, 04:45 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess it's my turn to be doubtful. Have you even played the new AVP at all? Because by your comment it wouldn't seem so. Wall hopping worked extremely well and a skilled player could use it to traverse environments at lightning speed from floor to ceiling to wall, you could move so fast between areas, through vents, and around corners it was often hard for marines to even hit you until you got very close. Unlike bunny hopping however it didn't rely on complicated strafe+jump+turn+repeat maneuvers, instead you had to plan your routes out, be able to adjust immediately to new orientations, and transition smoothly to attack. In the first AVP this was similar to the forward leap+tail stab maneuvers that aliens would use to close distance immediately but requires extremely careful timing on both the attack and the jump itself, not to mention good aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're misunderstanding my argument. I'm not saying that wallhopping can't be effective. If you wanted to, you could make it overpowered easily enough. It is however not a deep skill. It doesn't take a long time to master. I've already gone over why it's important to have depth in earlier posts and in the article.
<!--quoteo(post=1872542:date=Sep 1 2011, 04:45 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Sep 1 2011, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know NS1 had and NS2 will most likely have a large clan/pro community but catering to those sorts of players alone may not be all that financially sound. I'd love to see Natural Selection become a great franchise of games and for UWE to become a name in development but I don't get the feeling that's what the future has in store. There's nothing wrong with accessibility in a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree that catering to competitive players alone would be disastrous for the games popularity. But then again, nobody here is arguing that the game should cater only to competitive players. If you read the article, as you claim you did, you would know that that isn't part of the argument at all. Instead I would have to flip it around and ask you if it's a good idea for the game to solely cater to casual players (people who only play a couple of hours a week), which is what you're doing if you're not adding depth to the game. That depth doesn't have to be bunnyhopping, but there aren't a lot of game mechanics that can compete with it in terms of depth.
From a game design point of view it should never be included in a game. You do not add features that are not explained or are 'hidden' from new comers. Also movement in FPS game's should not require skilled techniques like bunny hopping, the skill focus should remain on actual primary game play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that's true at all. From a game design point of view any mechanic which adds depth to the game can be considered beneficial, regardless if that mechanic came about by accident.
I don't know what you mean by "primary" gameplay. IMO in a game like NS2 where you have 1 team that is almost all melee then there needs to be some way for them to get closer to the enemy that takes skill. Since you don't need good aiming for melee weapons the skill needs to come from getting in range and avoiding being shot.
I think a lot of the points about it being inaccessible to new players and looking strange are completely valid. However, that doesn't mean the core mechanic is bad. It is possible that it could now be implemented in such a way that these things would no longer be a problem. If you look at what Valve are doing with the new CS:GO casual mode, they are making it more accessible to newer players without dumbing down or removing core mechanics. That's the best of both world - accessibility and depth. I'm not saying NS2 needs different modes, just illustrating that both things can be achieved without damaging one another.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't disagree with that at all. Bunnyhopping being unintuitive in NS is one of the arguments against it that actually stick. I also believe however that this can be remedied in NS2. Quake style jump queueing and tutorials have already been suggested, and I'm sure we could come up with other ways to make it easier and more natural to learn as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see why it couldn't be taught, they taught you how to ski in Tribes, I do think the CS style is a little... clumsy for general consumption though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're misunderstanding my argument. I'm not saying that wallhopping can't be effective. If you wanted to, you could make it overpowered easily enough. It is however not a deep skill. It doesn't take a long time to master. I've already gone over why it's important to have depth in earlier posts and in the article.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think were misunderstanding each other entirely. I like wall hopping, I think it adds a very distinct alien feel to things its attached too and I found it worked very well in AVP2010. If bunny hopping looks right, there's no reason you couldn't have both to maximize the alien movement, so you'd have loping skulk transitioning from wall to floor to ceiling with inhuman grace. You already said it before, bunny hopping and wall leaping probably work best together, my only issue is dismissing AVP2010 as an example, the games down fall wasn't due to its movement scheme, that felt natural, flowing, and very immersive, it was due to it's failure to support PC dedicated servers early on, balance problems, weird melee scheme, assassination conga lines, and total lack of support after launch. It was, in effect, a slightly premature but survivable (and fixable) game that was instead left to die by Sega.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I completely agree that catering to competitive players alone would be disastrous for the games popularity. But then again, nobody here is arguing that the game should cater only to competitive players. If you read the article, as you claim you did, you would know that that isn't part of the argument at all. Instead I would have to flip it around and ask you if it's a good idea for the game to solely cater to casual players (people who only play a couple of hours a week), which is what you're doing if you're not adding depth to the game. That depth doesn't have to be bunnyhopping, but there aren't a lot of game mechanics that can compete with it in terms of depth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not about the article, I know there are lots of clan and pro-gamers who play, I was just today watching Anagrams matches against HBZ on their site, and having people who are really into the game is great, but it has to be accepted that not everyone can or wants to play to that level of gameplay. That's a big reason why I feel we can't go overboard on depth, depth is great, but there has to remain some level of accessibility by casual gamers so they don't drop into a server and get lost and annihilated because they're not really certain what's going on. NS2's learning curve is already fairly steep. Granted, you can make an absolute ton of money off casual gamers (The Sims) NS2 isn't exactly that type of game. I think tutorials will be helpful but I also don't think BH/Wall leap should grant huge benefits (because then you end up with too large of a capability gap based on skill, which maybe while deserved, is very off putting) or it should be easy to pick up to an acceptable modicum of skill.
Bhop will not be going back in, in its 'classic' state. There are plans for other skill-based movement system(s), but bhop is not one of them.
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro--><b>*LOCKED.*</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Anyway, keep playing nice, carry out the conversation without name calling and putting down those with opposing views, and the thread will stay open.
--Cory
I agree - the first 100hours was fun and all but slowly (200+ hours) darkness gets annoying... Only playing with flashlight (light range could be longer btw) or alienvision...
@bhop stuff:
Skulks everywhere are already spamming the jump key in ns2(myself included) - we miss bhop i guess. (even the ones argumenting against it are doing it - im 100% sure)
I don't think you need to choose one or the other (accessibility or depth). I think it's possible to have both without damaging each other.
Accessibility is great but if there's no depth then people will stop playing fairly quickly. I think it's funny how there seems to be a big discussion on movement skill but you would never hear the same about aiming. Should we dull down aiming in the game because it makes it inaccessible to new players? Lets make every gun like the flame-thrower where you just spray and pray and require no real accuracy. That would make it more accessible to new players but completely remove depth. The game would become boring very quickly.
Obviously no one likes being stomped on by players who are much better than them. Yet that is an inevitability in a well designed game. If that skill difference didn't exist then the game would be boring and no one would play it. Multiplayer games are interesting and fun because you are trying to outplay your opponent. The more areas in which you can outplay your opponent, the better. Very enjoyable mechanics are those that are impossible to master, but if performed exceptionally well players can pull off some very impressive things. Aiming is a perfect example of this. It's impossible to aim 100% accurately all the time - that is beyond human potential. Yet, the very best FPS players can pull off crazy unbelievable shots and make it look easy.
The same thing is happening when two beginners play against each other as when two pros do. They are both trying to out perform each other at the game mechanics. If the game mechanics lack depth then players will get to a point where they can perform them optimally and it will become boring, as it will be impossible for them to out perform their opponent.
Making the game accessible should be about helping new players understand how to play and how the mechanics work. Not removing or dulling down the core of the game.
I can't bunnyhop. I never played NS1 or any game that required it. I'm not really attached to this mechanic, but I'm interested in this discussion from a game design point of view. I'd like to see UWE create the best game possible and for me that's a game that is deep, requires practice and is impossible to master. Whether that includes bunnyhop or any other movement mechanics is up to them.
<!--quoteo(post=1872644:date=Sep 2 2011, 04:36 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Sep 2 2011, 04:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks everywhere are already spamming the jump key in ns2(myself included) - we miss bhop i guess. (even the ones argumenting against it are doing it - im 100% sure)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. I hate this but it's currently the best method to avoid being hit. Marines and skulks just mash the space bar and hope that they don't die before the other player.
meb is da man.
Bhopping was essential for competitive play in NS1 and I wish it was in NS2 as well :(.
-exi.SycknesS