<!--quoteo(post=1870108:date=Aug 19 2011, 07:43 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Aug 19 2011, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Granted, you'll also notice how much dumber the combats look as well. You'd be better off just increasing movement speed that adding in a stupid looking mechanic that can be replicated without the stupid part. The skulk thing looks promising so long as it looks right. Bunny hopping is not necessary and I keep hearing how it adds skill based movement. You'd think people who could rise to the "challenge" of learning to bunny hop could rise to the challenge of not relying on such a crutch to move faster. NS2 is an atmospheric shooter with a heavy emphasis on tactical spacing in movement, team tactics, situational awareness, and damned good aim. If you can't master those skills you're falling back on bunny hopping as an easy artificial leg up. If you can spam space bar you can learn to move as a squad. If you can spam space bar you can learn to check corners, ceilings, and floor grates. If you can spam space bar you can learn to be dead on with your aim.
If you can do those things you'll find you don't need bunny hop nor bunny hopping scripts. What kind of legacy did BH give to CS? One of exploits and cheating, I don't think I've ever seen a multiplayer game with as many cheaters as CS, and that comes from an overemphasis on win at all costs exploit and glitch gaming that bunny hop spawned form. I don't want to see NS2 rotted from the inside out in the same way. If the UWE team wants to add in some "skill based movement" its going to be in their style, in their atmosphere, and in their paradigm (like how tribes adding ski after the glitch was found), not on some outdated engine glitch that brought about a culture of cheating in CS. Do it legit or don't do it at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I highly recommend you to read <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">this article</a> fana wrote. (the first half of your arguments are answered in the article and the second half is completly pointless since you cant compare ns with cs)
As usual I'm not so much bothered at people being against any bhop, but the arguments used are seriously awkward. There are a plenty of good arguments against bhop - use them. Right now this looks more like a medieval inquisition.
<!--quoteo(post=1870120:date=Aug 19 2011, 06:28 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 19 2011, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wrote a lengthy article about the merits of bunnyhopping about a year back, it's still worth reading: <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How i miss NS just from watching these videos. I remember starting up a lan server just so i could practice bunny hopping. I was never awesome at it, but i remember watching these videos and wanting to be just as good as you all. We used to try your jumps when waiting for matches to start or in pubs for fun. I also remember holding "How to Bunny Hop" online classes lol to help teach people. NSlearn i think. Been so long and i miss it so much. You can even look as Counter Strike and their Jump maps. So much fun (kz_map i think.)
But anyway awesome article. Everything i have ever wanted to say but couldnt put into words. I really hope UWE rethinks their BH stance.
On a Gorge note, I love the drifting slide idea. Ala Mario Kart 64 =) (but bunny hop would be better)
<!--quoteo(post=1870120:date=Aug 19 2011, 07:28 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 19 2011, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wrote a lengthy article about the merits of bunnyhopping about a year back, it's still worth reading: <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good read!
I guess with exception of a few people who apparently mastered bunnyhopping without a script (I'm sceptical about that, but I'll give them the benefit of doubt) my only quarrel with bunny hopping was that too many people were scripting it, thus making it not a skill based movement but rather a copy/paste based movement. Only the elite/hardcore gamers knew about scripting and its benefits giving them too much of an advantage over the newer or more casual players.
If "bunny hopping" (or skill based movement as it is being called by the devs) is implemented it should be something that is readily available to everyone by default, not something that requires research and development to do. By what Cory had posted it appears that is what they are aiming for.
As for the people who are against thisway of implementing skill based movement, it appears that you like having that big advantage over everyone else because you put the extra effort to master it. Unfortunatley from a business standpoint, it isn't good for the game's balance when only the hardcore gamers can perform something that gives such a huge advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=1870242:date=Aug 20 2011, 05:54 PM:name=Dank McShwagger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dank McShwagger @ Aug 20 2011, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess with exception of a few people who apparently mastered bunnyhopping without a script (I'm sceptical about that, but I'll give them the benefit of doubt) my only quarrel with bunny hopping was that too many people were scripting it, thus making it not a skill based movement but rather a copy/paste based movement. Only the elite/hardcore gamers knew about scripting and its benefits giving them too much of an advantage over the newer or more casual players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only thing people use is 3jump, which makes timing the jump easier. The actual air curve business that people are mostly wanting back is almost unscrpitable as far as I know. A little similar as aiming, you'd need a dozen variations to have even the basic bhop. At that point it's just easier to learn the real thing, which gives you far better feel and control.
As for jump timing, Quake has already a very elegant 'jump queuing' that removes the necessity of jump spamming to time it right, effectively removing the need for any scripts also.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If "bunny hopping" (or skill based movement as it is being called by the devs) is implemented it should be something that is readily available to everyone by default, not something that requires research and development to do. By what Cory had posted it appears that is what they are aiming for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is something the vast majority of bhoppers agree. Hardly anyone wants to make it more inaccessible than necessary. The discussions just rarely gets to the accessibility point because every bhop thread is wasted on correcting misconceptions about scripting, depth involved and such.
<!--quoteo(post=1870242:date=Aug 20 2011, 12:54 PM:name=Dank McShwagger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dank McShwagger @ Aug 20 2011, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess with exception of a few people who apparently mastered bunnyhopping without a script (I'm sceptical about that, but I'll give them the benefit of doubt) my only quarrel with bunny hopping was that too many people were scripting it, thus making it not a skill based movement but rather a copy/paste based movement. Only the elite/hardcore gamers knew about scripting and its benefits giving them too much of an advantage over the newer or more casual players.
If "bunny hopping" (or skill based movement as it is being called by the devs) is implemented it should be something that is readily available to everyone by default, not something that requires research and development to do. By what Cory had posted it appears that is what they are aiming for.
As for the people who are against thisway of implementing skill based movement, it appears that you like having that big advantage over everyone else because you put the extra effort to master it. Unfortunatley from a business standpoint, it isn't good for the game's balance when only the hardcore gamers can perform something that gives such a huge advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 95% of people didn't use a script to bunnyhop.
<!--quoteo(post=1870242:date=Aug 20 2011, 07:54 PM:name=Dank McShwagger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dank McShwagger @ Aug 20 2011, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess with exception of a few people who apparently mastered bunnyhopping without a script (I'm sceptical about that, but I'll give them the benefit of doubt) my only quarrel with bunny hopping was that too many people were scripting it, thus making it not a skill based movement but rather a copy/paste based movement. Only the elite/hardcore gamers knew about scripting and its benefits giving them too much of an advantage over the newer or more casual players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't script bunnyhop. What you can do is use a 3-jump script, which triggers jump three times. Most players just bound jump to the mousewheel and used that. The biggest skill factor of bhop is the constant mouse movement required to gain speed, and incorporating it into the gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If "bunny hopping" (or skill based movement as it is being called by the devs) is implemented it should be something that is readily available to everyone by default, not something that requires research and development to do. By what Cory had posted it appears that is what they are aiming for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1870245:date=Aug 20 2011, 02:38 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Aug 20 2011, 02:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing people use is 3jump, which makes timing the jump easier. The actual air curve business that people are mostly wanting back is almost unscrpitable as far as I know. A little similar as aiming, you'd need a dozen variations to have even the basic bhop. At that point it's just easier to learn the real thing, which gives you far better feel and control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1870246:date=Aug 20 2011, 02:39 PM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Aug 20 2011, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870246"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->95% of people didn't use a script to bunnyhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1870248:date=Aug 20 2011, 02:43 PM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Aug 20 2011, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't script bunnyhop. What you can do is use a 3-jump script, which triggers jump three times. Most players just bound jump to the mousewheel and used that. The biggest skill factor of bhop is the constant mouse movement required to gain speed, and incorporating it into the gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I stand corrected. However, one of the reasons that I lost interest in NS1 (even though it was a spectacular game) was that I found out early that if you didn't have certain scripts (i.e. machine pistol) you were leagues behind the average player in terms of competitive edge. I personally do not like scripts in any form for any game. I understand them, I know how to implement them, but I do not agree with what they represent. I won't call them a cheat but I do see them as an unfair advantage over a less experienced player who has no clue what they are or that they exist.
If this is all redundant I appologize but I am completely against client side scripts in any form for any game. My 2 cents.
<!--quoteo(post=1870262:date=Aug 20 2011, 09:33 PM:name=Dank McShwagger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dank McShwagger @ Aug 20 2011, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I stand corrected. However, one of the reasons that I lost interest in NS1 (even though it was a spectacular game) was that I found out early that if you didn't have certain scripts (i.e. machine pistol) you were leagues behind the average player in terms of competitive edge. I personally do not like scripts in any form for any game. I understand them, I know how to implement them, but I do not agree with what they represent. I won't call them a cheat but I do see them as an unfair advantage over a less experienced player who has no clue what they are or that they exist.
If this is all redundant I appologize but I am completely against client side scripts in any form for any game. My 2 cents.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pistol script is the only script I can think of providing some consistent advantage. However, even I, a semi inactive commander can click quick enough to empty my pistol in devastating manner. All it takes is a comfortable mouse (Diamondback 3G for me) and some regular play to be close enough to the rate of fire cap of the pistol.
Certainly scripts provide some slight advantages and comfort, but in no way any script will make or break you as a player. If you want an absolutely level playing field, I'd say you have to worry about gamma, hardware, connections, the effects of various FPS rates and all that before you should start worrying about scripts that much.
<!--quoteo(post=1870059:date=Aug 19 2011, 09:23 AM:name=Talesin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talesin @ Aug 19 2011, 09:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe the argument was more of that it started out as an engine bug, and when Valve went to fix it too many 'competitive' players whined and howled up a ****storm about 'skill-based' play being killed, when one of their favorite little cheats was going away. Valve backpedalled as one of their big bread-and-butter draws (let's not kid... their biggest) those days was CS. As a result, every other game gets the same treatment, with the same people whining that their script won't give them an advantage any more, when it SHOULD, and anyone else could download the same script if they were leet too.
Leave it out. Fix the game speeds on a base level, not by replicating an outdated twitch-glitch forcibly kept in place by loud asshats. You want skill-based movement? Go Lerk and practice flying. You know, an actual <b>skill</b> (not <i>script</i>) based movement system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Excellent satire, you should look into a job for The Onion.
<!--quoteo(post=1870273:date=Aug 20 2011, 05:33 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Aug 20 2011, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pistol script is the only script I can think of providing some consistent advantage. However, even I, a semi inactive commander can click quick enough to empty my pistol in devastating manner. All it takes is a comfortable mouse (Diamondback 3G for me) and some regular play to be close enough to the rate of fire cap of the pistol.
Certainly scripts provide some slight advantages and comfort, but in no way any script will make or break you as a player. If you want an absolutely level playing field, I'd say you have to worry about gamma, hardware, connections, the effects of various FPS rates and all that before you should start worrying about scripts that much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The machine gun pistol script was horrible at one point. I used it myself. I think the devs addressed it a while ago but I think the speed cap was set differently early on and that script made every bullet leave the gun almost instantly with near perfect accuracy. There were also some basic control scripts that I'm sure will not be seen as game breaking but still add that little advantage that I feel is not needed.
I agree that there are other factors involved with leveling the playfield aside from scripts. Gamma adjustments being the another big thorn in my side, especially for a game that uses light and dark as much as NS2. Is this something that is controllable? I've watched over someone's shoulder playing ns1 with ridiculous gamma settings that actually allowed him to see cloaked aliens pretty easily. So yes, another area that needs addressing.
Hardware and connection is not really controllable by the dev's aside from optimizing, but if you are unable to play a game on low settings at a steady 60 frames then it's time to upgrade. And if your ping is >100 it's time to find a new server. My opinion is biased because I tend to always have a rather beastly machine and my connection is quite solid so I have never had complaints in that regard.
I should shut up about scripts and client side adjustments now as I have taken this thread off topic.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1870279:date=Aug 20 2011, 11:26 PM:name=Dank McShwagger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dank McShwagger @ Aug 20 2011, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The machine gun pistol script was horrible at one point. I used it myself. I think the devs addressed it a while ago but I think the speed cap was set differently early on and that script made every bullet leave the gun almost instantly with near perfect accuracy. There were also some basic control scripts that I'm sure will not be seen as game breaking but still add that little advantage that I feel is not needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The pistol has perfect (yes, perfect, not near perfect) accuracy with and without scripts, it doesn't matter how fast it shoots. Back in version 1.04 there was no cap on the fire rate, so some people made a script that basically shot 10 bullets in 1 shot. That was obviously not cool and was immediately banned from tournaments and the whole problem disappeared a short while later when the pistol fire rate was capped in version 2.01.
Since then pretty much anyone who isn't a mentally or physically impaired in some way can fire the pistol at the max ROF with a little practice. With a lot of practice, you can do it accurately in combat too. The popular 2 shot pistol script eliminates a little of that practice requirement to keep accuracy, but honestly the difference is negligible. I was a better shot without a pistol script 5 years ago, than I am with one now...
<!--quoteo(post=1870279:date=Aug 20 2011, 11:26 PM:name=Dank McShwagger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dank McShwagger @ Aug 20 2011, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that there are other factors involved with leveling the playfield aside from scripts. Gamma adjustments being the another big thorn in my side, especially for a game that uses light and dark as much as NS2. Is this something that is controllable? I've watched over someone's shoulder playing ns1 with ridiculous gamma settings that actually allowed him to see cloaked aliens pretty easily. So yes, another area that needs addressing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Gamma adjusments can't be sensibly enforced, period. Partly because hardware affects it in a big way (ever wonder why all games ask you to adjust gamma in the first place?) and partly because it would require draconian methods that would do more harm than good.
Gamma has never affected how well you can see cloaked aliens. Prior to version 3.1 (at least I think it was 3.1), aliens were only cloaked 95% so you could see their outlines moving about if you knew what to look for. Now they're 100% cloaked and impossible to spot.
<!--quoteo(post=1870057:date=Aug 19 2011, 01:05 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 19 2011, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Heh, that's always been the worst kind of argument against bunnyhopping. If you don't like it just say that, but don't go "oh it's alright but we can't use it cause it was an engine-bug, sorry".
Personally I wouldn't mind a Quake-style bunnyhopping on skulks (with the space-bar hammering). Either that, or the skulk running-speed has to increase 3-fold, because right now it's depressingly slow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was heavily into bhopping and still know how to do it. However, I always thought it was incredible UNFAIR for users that do not know how to use it. A bhopping Onos moving at the speed of a Skulk, does that make sense? Bunny hopping is in the past, I wish all my fellow NS1 vets could just let it go... Its better for gameplay in general...
Hence my suggestion of a quake-style bunnyhop, no timing\scripting\mousewheeling involved there. As for disproportionately fast classes, that can be fixed with a simple speed-cap? I've yet to see some compelling arguments here to be honest.
<!--quoteo(post=1872307:date=Aug 31 2011, 11:24 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 31 2011, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hence my suggestion of a quake-style bunnyhop, no timing\scripting\mousewheeling involved there. As for disproportionately fast classes, that can be fixed with a simple speed-cap? I've yet to see some compelling arguments here to be honest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1872307:date=Aug 31 2011, 12:24 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 31 2011, 12:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hence my suggestion of a quake-style bunnyhop, no timing\scripting\mousewheeling involved there. As for disproportionately fast classes, that can be fixed with a simple speed-cap? I've yet to see some compelling arguments here to be honest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, the argument is truly unnecessary as UWE has apparently decided to not include a bunny hopping system in NS2 (which I am fully in support of). The only players that complain about it are the old school Quake/UT/NS1 players.
As much as I loved exploiting bunny hopping in TFC/Half-Life Deathmatch/Counter Strike/Natural Selection (wow, this seems to be a pattern of Valve titles/mods), I'm glad the current generation and future generation games are not including this.
Unless the implementation makes sense to physics (such as putting over spin on a ball when you throw it will cause the ball to speed up when it moves), then it's just a way to satisfy the old farts that play NS2 :)
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1872301:date=Aug 31 2011, 04:52 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 31 2011, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I always thought it was incredible UNFAIR for users that do not know how to use it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No more unfair than certain players knowing "how to use" some other aspect of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1872301:date=Aug 31 2011, 04:52 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 31 2011, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A bhopping Onos moving at the speed of a Skulk, does that make sense?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except the Onos doesn't move at the speed of a Skulk, unless the Skulk isn't bunnyhopping, and even then the Onos is actually slower in NS. In fact though, nobody's arguing that the Onos should be able to bunnyhop. Giving the Onos the same movement penalties as a marine (with regards to repeated jumps) wouldn't be difficult at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1872301:date=Aug 31 2011, 04:52 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 31 2011, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping is in the past, I wish all my fellow NS1 vets could just let it go... Its better for gameplay in general...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except it isn't. If you could be bothered to read the arguments posted you would see that there are two trains of thought going on: One is the argument that bunnyhopping makes the game much deeper and therefore more fun to play. The other is the argument for bunnyhopping on the basis that it is a necessity to properly balance melee vs. ranged. Both emphatically lead to the conclusion that bunnyhopping improves gameplay. Certainly you can argue against that, but simply stating that "(no bunnyhopping is) better for gameplay in general" has no merit.
<!--quoteo(post=1872320:date=Aug 31 2011, 11:36 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 31 2011, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No more unfair than certain players knowing "how to use" some other aspect of the game.
Except the Onos doesn't move at the speed of a Skulk, unless the Skulk isn't bunnyhopping, and even then the Onos is actually slower in NS. In fact though, nobody's arguing that the Onos should be able to bunnyhop. Giving the Onos the same movement penalties as a marine (with regards to repeated jumps) wouldn't be difficult at all.
Except it isn't. If you could be bothered to read the arguments posted you would see that there are two trains of thought going on: One is the argument that bunnyhopping makes the game much deeper and therefore more fun to play. The other is the argument for bunnyhopping on the basis that it is a necessity to properly balance melee vs. ranged. Both emphatically lead to the conclusion that bunnyhopping improves gameplay. Certainly you can argue against that, but simply stating that "(no bunnyhopping is) better for gameplay in general" has no merit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1872320:date=Aug 31 2011, 01:36 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 31 2011, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No more unfair than certain players knowing "how to use" some other aspect of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <ul><li>Like? Please give me an example. I sure hope you don't say point and shooting...</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=1872320:date=Aug 31 2011, 01:36 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 31 2011, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except the Onos doesn't move at the speed of a Skulk, unless the Skulk isn't bunnyhopping, and even then the Onos is actually slower in NS. In fact though, nobody's arguing that the Onos should be able to bunnyhop. Giving the Onos the same movement penalties as a marine (with regards to repeated jumps) wouldn't be difficult at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <ol type='1'><li>This was rather confusing... Load up NS1 and walk normal as a Skulk and then bhop with a ONOS and see who wins the distance race between the two classes. That makes sense to you that a creature 5x the size of another can move faster because it is hopping? Really?</li></ol>
<!--quoteo(post=1872320:date=Aug 31 2011, 01:36 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 31 2011, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except it isn't. If you could be bothered to read the arguments posted you would see that there are two trains of thought going on: One is the argument that bunnyhopping makes the game much deeper and therefore more fun to play. The other is the argument for bunnyhopping on the basis that it is a necessity to properly balance melee vs. ranged. Both emphatically lead to the conclusion that bunnyhopping improves gameplay. Certainly you can argue against that, but simply stating that "(no bunnyhopping is) better for gameplay in general" has no merit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <ul><li>I'm not sure where this conclusion came from because the only one I've seen anyone come to was the "agree to disagree". </li><li>Bunny hopping makes the game deeper? What does that even mean? Properly balancing Melee vs. Ranged? Last time I checked the Skulk was very effective at killing in NS2 ranged or not. The Skulk is made to work in a group (pub or team play) and to lurk in dark areas throughout the map and ambush Marines. I think you are referring to a competitive play style crowd which is <b>not</b> what UWE is trying to develop and sell too.</li></ul>
Still, I only see former HL1/HL1 Mod older players arguing the the implementation of bunny hopping. I have yet to really come across a new comer saying "Yes, I think having the ability to triple ones speed by space bar spamming (let's not pretend like this takes a whole lot of skill) is an effective feature I would like for a game".
To all those PRO bhopping, I am sure someone will release a fun little MOD for you to play with. However, at this point UWE is very clear that bhopping is not a feature they plan to implement. If you want bhopping, load up NS1/HL1/CS and bunny hop to your hearts content.
<!--quoteo(post=1872315:date=Aug 31 2011, 07:14 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 31 2011, 07:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, the argument is truly unnecessary as UWE has apparently decided to not include a bunny hopping system in NS2 (which I am fully in support of).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It becomes relevant again since the game can be easily modded to such an extend to re-introduce this feature.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only players that complain about it are the old school Quake/UT/NS1 players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a bit of a guess on your part. Assuming this is true, it is only because players of these games have known and enjoyed this movement-mechanic, where-as 'newcomers' (ea. post 2003-ish) are quite oblivious regarding it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As much as I loved exploiting bunny hopping in TFC/Half-Life Deathmatch/Counter Strike/Natural Selection (wow, this seems to be a patter of Valve titles/mods), I'm glad the current generation and future generation games are not including this.
Unless the implementation makes sense to physics (such as putting over spin on a ball when you throw it will cause the ball to speed up when it moves), then it's just a way to satisfy the old farts that play NS2 :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yet again you avoid the question as to why bunnyhopping should not be introduced.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was rather confusing... Load up NS1 and walk normal as a Skulk and then bhop with a ONOS and see who wins the distance race between the two classes. That makes sense to you that a creature 5x the size of another can move faster because it is hopping? Really?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Semantics, already replied to this one, it can be easily fixed with a speed-cap (or whichever other solution you can come up with, maybe disable it entirely for the Onos\Heavy-armor).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping makes the game deeper? What does that even mean? Properly balancing Melee vs. Ranged? Last time I checked the Skulk was very effective at killing in NS2 ranged or not. The Skulk is made to work in a group (pub or team play) and to lurk in dark areas throughout the map and ambush Marines. I think you are referring to a competitive play style crowd which is not what UWE is trying to develop and sell too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The skulk does not work in ranged combat at all, the NS1-skulk wasn't fantastic at it either but that was in-line with it's gameplay-role, in NS2 it is downright useless with range, there is no way to quickly close the gap between a marine (this was reasonbly do-able in NS1). Also, a lone-skulk was a very common phenomenon in NS1, you're not going to get any map-control if the only way to do it is to move in hordes (too large a maps, and I'm not talking about rockdown).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still, I only see former HL1/HL1 Mod older players arguing the the implementation of bunny hopping. I have yet to really come across a new comer saying "Yes, I think having the ability to triple ones speed by space bar spamming (let's not pretend like this takes a whole lot of skill) is an effective feature I would like for a game".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> See above.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To all those PRO bhopping, I am sure someone will release a fun little MOD for you to play with. However, at this point UWE is very clear that bhopping is not a feature they plan to implement. If you want bhopping, load up NS1/HL1/CS and bunny hop to your hearts content.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What I want is a proper NS2, and the sluggish-gameplay we're stuck with at the moment just isn't it.
Maybe there should be "allow bunnyhop" -checkbox (for aliens) on servers so it could be tested if wanted. Atleast till this new skill-based movement comes along. I would love to try and see how does it affect to the gameplay at the moment.
Even hiding with skulk works against marines, I dont see it as fun as bh from corner and rushing marines down with 1-2 other skulks. It gives depth / choices to alien gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1872336:date=Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It becomes relevant again since the game can be easily modded to such an extend to re-introduce this feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And no one has done it to explore the possibility why again? hmm...
<!--quoteo(post=1872336:date=Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a bit of a guess on your part. Assuming this is true, it is only because players of these games have known and enjoyed this movement-mechanic, where-as 'newcomers' (ea. post 2003-ish) are quite oblivious regarding it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just because someone likes the way the NES controller felt in my hand doesn't mean Nintendo has to make a classic version for their modern product to satisfy their "old school" players. Think about it...
<!--quoteo(post=1872336:date=Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yet again you avoid the question as to why bunnyhopping should not be introduced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Being able to bunny hop should not decide a match or a game in a public server. UWE made the right decision by giving every class a set speed and haven't it set throughout all skill levels. Producing an impressive K:D ratio and being on the winning team now relies on individual skill to point and shoot (the point of FPS) and working as a team.
<!--quoteo(post=1872336:date=Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Semantics, already replied to this one, it can be easily fixed with a speed-cap (or whichever other solution you can come up with, maybe disable it entirely for the Onos\Heavy-armor).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, there is your MOD. Create it and go play it. If the turn out is more than enough to have UWE look into this issue again, maybe your bunny hopping concept will be re-thought by the developers.
<!--quoteo(post=1872336:date=Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The skulk does not work in ranged combat at all, the NS1-skulk wasn't fantastic at it either but that was in-line with it's gameplay-role, in NS2 it is downright useless with range, there is no way to quickly close the gap between a marine (this was reasonbly do-able in NS1). Also, a lone-skulk was a very common phenomenon in NS1, you're not going to get any map-control if the only way to do it is to move in hordes (too large a maps, and I'm not talking about rockdown).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> When was the Skulk meant to be effective in Ranged battle? Tier 2 (Leap) fixes the disadvantages of Ranged combat with the Skulk class. The early game is mean for Skulks to work in groups and flank Marines attempting to expand. Once again, you referring to an old mechanic system that is nearly extinct in all modern games. Natural Selection 2 is considered a future "Modern Game" right?
<!--quoteo(post=1872336:date=Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I want is a proper NS2, and the sluggish-gameplay we're stuck with at the moment just isn't it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We all don't always get what we want and I don't see this being something that UWE changes in Natural Selection 2. If they decide to re-implement the mechanics, I will adapt and live with their choice. As of right now, being a NS1 and HL1 player, I adapted and learned how to play without needing bunny hopping...
Trust me, I understand your point of view, I just think that the past is the past and it's time to move on. If UWE plans to re-introduce bunny hopping is a new way, I am more than receptive to using it. However, the old bunny hopping system is a relic of the past and if one wants to revisit that relic, then play an old (no longer support in most cases) title...
<!--quoteo(post=1872333:date=Aug 31 2011, 12:35 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 31 2011, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still, I only see former HL1/HL1 Mod older players arguing the the implementation of bunny hopping. I have yet to really come across a new comer saying "Yes, I think having the ability to triple ones speed by space bar spamming (let's not pretend like this takes a whole lot of skill) is an effective feature I would like for a game".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait.. Are you saying people arent asking for a feature they know nothing about?!?! Are you FOR REALS?
Try spamming space bar and bunny hop... At least PRETEND to know what you are talking about. Space bar couldnt be used unless you have a 3jump script or you change your jump button to mouse wheel up/down like i did. It was a very hard thing to master and i still dont have it down. Plus the jump is only 1/4 of bunny hopping (3Jump, Mouse movement, Strafe keys, momentum, and path (brief stab at the elements.))
<b>"Just because someone likes the way the NES controller felt in my hand doesn't mean Nintendo has to make a classic version for their modern product to satisfy their "old school" players. Think about it..." </b> By your example we should use mice and keyboards. They have been around a long time.
<b>"Being able to bunny hop should not decide a match or a game in a public server. UWE made the right decision by giving every class a set speed and haven't it set throughout all skill levels. Producing an impressive K:D ratio and being on the winning team now relies on individual skill to point and shoot (the point of FPS) and working as a team." </b> It never decided anything. Dont exaggerate. It just so happen that most if not all the good players could bunny hop which defined them through skilled movement as any game does.
<b>"Well, there is your MOD. Create it and go play it. If the turn out is more than enough to have UWE look into this issue again, maybe your bunny hopping concept will be re-thought by the developers." </b> Glad you said this. WHEW. Now the devs have your blessing.
<b>"When was the Skulk meant to be effective in Ranged battle? Tier 2 (Leap) fixes the disadvantages of Ranged combat with the Skulk class. The early game is mean for Skulks to work in groups and flank Marines attempting to expand. Once again, you referring to an old mechanic system that is nearly extinct in all modern games. Natural Selection 2 is considered a future "Modern Game" right?"</b>
Wrong. Aliens have always had to spread out and use map control to their advantage. Parasite and stalk prey. Public or competitive games there were never more than 2 skulks together especially early game when half your team was doing others things and you had to cover each entry point to alien territory. So i say yet again, dont speak of things you obviously know nothing about to make your point.
<b>"We all don't always get what we want and I don't see this being something that UWE changes in Natural Selection 2. If they decide to re-implement the mechanics, I will adapt and live with their choice. As of right now, being a NS1 and HL1 player, I adapted and learned how to play without needing bunny hopping..." </b> You adapted and learned how to not bunny hop? So you couldnt and failed at it. Glad to hear it.
<b>"Trust me, I understand your point of view, I just think that the past is the past and it's time to move on. If UWE plans to re-introduce bunny hopping is a new way, I am more than receptive to using it. However, the old bunny hopping system is a relic of the past and if one wants to revisit that relic, then play an old (no longer support in most cases) title..."</b>
No you dont. As you have just said if they implement it you will use it. We want it in. You seem to not mind either way, so WHAT ARE YOU ARGUEING ABOUT. It may be a relic, but it was a interesting element of the game that defined NS and can be found in every (if not all almost all) skill based videos.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because someone likes the way the NES controller felt in my hand doesn't mean Nintendo has to make a classic version for their modern product to satisfy their "old school" players. Think about it...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have fun playing SSBM with the Wii Nunchakus.
<!--quoteo(post=1872344:date=Aug 31 2011, 03:25 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Aug 31 2011, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait.. Are you saying people arent asking for a feature they know nothing about?!?! Are you FOR REALS?
Try spamming space bar and bunny hop... At least PRETEND to know what you are talking about. Space bar couldnt be used unless you have a 3jump script or you change your jump button to mouse wheel up/down like i did. It was a very hard thing to master and i still dont have it down. Plus the jump is only 1/4 of bunny hopping (3Jump, Mouse movement, Strafe keys, momentum, and path (brief stab at the elements.))<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> what the hell are you talking about? You make no sense. You basically just stated you didn't learn how to bunny hop without scripts and .exe files. Idiot.
I'll continue my dialog/debate with <b>player</b>.
P.S. - I was exi.longtermFX apart of a team of skilled NS1 players, if you knew anything about the original competitive NS1, you would know exigent. I do know what I am talking about in terms of bhopping and I do know that the only other teams that gave exigent or terror any form of run for their money were other teams that knew how to use bunny hopping effectively. Not a single team that didn't bunny hop made it anywhere close to being able to play against the top tier teams.
Who the hell are you again and when did you ever play NS1? It never decided anything? You have absolutely no clue what your talking about.
Your a meatball, where is the block feature on this forum again? I am getting sick of trolls licking my grundle.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1872333:date=Aug 31 2011, 07:35 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 31 2011, 07:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872333"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>I'm not sure where this conclusion came from because the only one I've seen anyone come to was the "agree to disagree". </li><li>Bunny hopping makes the game deeper? What does that even mean? Properly balancing Melee vs. Ranged? Last time I checked the Skulk was very effective at killing in NS2 ranged or not. The Skulk is made to work in a group (pub or team play) and to lurk in dark areas throughout the map and ambush Marines. I think you are referring to a competitive play style crowd which is <b>not</b> what UWE is trying to develop and sell too.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm too tired of arguing with people who have all sorts of opinions but no knowledge to back it up with, to reply to the rest of your post. If you want to educate yourself on the debates we've had on the subject here previously, you can read this: <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/</a> The response from the anti-bh side has largely been of the "it looks lame, it's difficult to learn, it's overpowered, it's elitist, it's not how ns was meant to be played, it's an exploit" kind, all of which can be addressed easily or are simply untrue.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1872351:date=Aug 31 2011, 08:56 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 31 2011, 08:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what the hell are you talking about? You make no sense. You basically just stated you didn't learn how to bunny hop without scripts and .exe files. Idiot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not going to comment on whatever it is he wrote, but I will clarify a misunderstanding that gets brought up here often: In NS you DID NOT NEED a script or hacks of any kind, nor did you even need a mousewheel. Many accomplished top players (zaiko of Bacon Men fame being a prime example) used space bar to bunnyhop and still excelled at both bunnyhopping and playing the game in general. It is however true that using a script or mousewheel makes timing the jumps easier as there is a much larger margin of error. This could be easily rectified by implementing a queued jump system.
As for your "involvement" with exigent, considering you didn't play the game for them, it doesn't give you any credibility if that's what you were hoping for.
<!--quoteo(post=1872351:date=Aug 31 2011, 01:56 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 31 2011, 01:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what the hell are you talking about? You make no sense. You basically just stated you didn't learn how to bunny hop without scripts and .exe files. Idiot.
I'll continue my dialog/debate with <b>player</b>.
P.S. - I am exi.longtermFX, if you knew anything about the original competitive NS1, you would know exigent. I do know what I am talking about and I do know that the only other teams that gave exigent or terror any form of run for our money were other teams that knew how to use bunny hopping (just not as well). Not a SINGLE team that didn't bunny hop and exploit it EVER made it anywhere close to being able to play against the top tier teams. Who the hell are you again and when did you ever play NS1? It never decided anything? You have absolutely no clue what your talking about.
Your a meatball, where is the block feature on this forum again? I am getting sick of trolls licking my grundle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finally resorted to name calling eh? As soon as you start you have already lost the argument because you have nothing worth saying back. Good Job! I will clarify my post and say that i learned to bunny hop by using mousewheel. Not a script or .exe, so good job at misreading yet another post.
So continue your dialog/debate by adding a pointless P.S. and not adding anything to your post. I honestly didnt know who you were and am kind of saddened to think you were apart of Exigent. I know a lot of those guys and have met a couple irl. Didnt know they let people like you in the guild. The people in Exi i knew had class.
As to who i am, i was in the community sporadically and never claimed to be pro. The only claim to fame i have is putting together a decent team (DoM if i remember right) that had great players, but fell apart quickly in a tumultuous clan scene. I was not included since i was not skilled enough to join in (as i said i was sporadic in my play).
But hey, im the idiot right? At least i know the difference between your and you're.
Comments
If you can spam space bar you can learn to move as a squad.
If you can spam space bar you can learn to check corners, ceilings, and floor grates.
If you can spam space bar you can learn to be dead on with your aim.
If you can do those things you'll find you don't need bunny hop nor bunny hopping scripts.
What kind of legacy did BH give to CS? One of exploits and cheating, I don't think I've ever seen a multiplayer game with as many cheaters as CS, and that comes from an overemphasis on win at all costs exploit and glitch gaming that bunny hop spawned form. I don't want to see NS2 rotted from the inside out in the same way. If the UWE team wants to add in some "skill based movement" its going to be in their style, in their atmosphere, and in their paradigm (like how tribes adding ski after the glitch was found), not on some outdated engine glitch that brought about a culture of cheating in CS. Do it legit or don't do it at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I highly recommend you to read <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">this article</a> fana wrote.
(the first half of your arguments are answered in the article and the second half is completly pointless since you cant compare ns with cs)
How i miss NS just from watching these videos. I remember starting up a lan server just so i could practice bunny hopping. I was never awesome at it, but i remember watching these videos and wanting to be just as good as you all. We used to try your jumps when waiting for matches to start or in pubs for fun. I also remember holding "How to Bunny Hop" online classes lol to help teach people. NSlearn i think. Been so long and i miss it so much. You can even look as Counter Strike and their Jump maps. So much fun (kz_map i think.)
But anyway awesome article. Everything i have ever wanted to say but couldnt put into words. I really hope UWE rethinks their BH stance.
On a Gorge note, I love the drifting slide idea. Ala Mario Kart 64 =) (but bunny hop would be better)
Good read!
If "bunny hopping" (or skill based movement as it is being called by the devs) is implemented it should be something that is readily available to everyone by default, not something that requires research and development to do. By what Cory had posted it appears that is what they are aiming for.
As for the people who are against thisway of implementing skill based movement, it appears that you like having that big advantage over everyone else because you put the extra effort to master it. Unfortunatley from a business standpoint, it isn't good for the game's balance when only the hardcore gamers can perform something that gives such a huge advantage.
The only thing people use is 3jump, which makes timing the jump easier. The actual air curve business that people are mostly wanting back is almost unscrpitable as far as I know. A little similar as aiming, you'd need a dozen variations to have even the basic bhop. At that point it's just easier to learn the real thing, which gives you far better feel and control.
As for jump timing, Quake has already a very elegant 'jump queuing' that removes the necessity of jump spamming to time it right, effectively removing the need for any scripts also.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If "bunny hopping" (or skill based movement as it is being called by the devs) is implemented it should be something that is readily available to everyone by default, not something that requires research and development to do. By what Cory had posted it appears that is what they are aiming for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is something the vast majority of bhoppers agree. Hardly anyone wants to make it more inaccessible than necessary. The discussions just rarely gets to the accessibility point because every bhop thread is wasted on correcting misconceptions about scripting, depth involved and such.
If "bunny hopping" (or skill based movement as it is being called by the devs) is implemented it should be something that is readily available to everyone by default, not something that requires research and development to do. By what Cory had posted it appears that is what they are aiming for.
As for the people who are against thisway of implementing skill based movement, it appears that you like having that big advantage over everyone else because you put the extra effort to master it. Unfortunatley from a business standpoint, it isn't good for the game's balance when only the hardcore gamers can perform something that gives such a huge advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
95% of people didn't use a script to bunnyhop.
You can't script bunnyhop. What you can do is use a 3-jump script, which triggers jump three times. Most players just bound jump to the mousewheel and used that. The biggest skill factor of bhop is the constant mouse movement required to gain speed, and incorporating it into the gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If "bunny hopping" (or skill based movement as it is being called by the devs) is implemented it should be something that is readily available to everyone by default, not something that requires research and development to do. By what Cory had posted it appears that is what they are aiming for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, that is important.
<!--quoteo(post=1870246:date=Aug 20 2011, 02:39 PM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Aug 20 2011, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870246"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->95% of people didn't use a script to bunnyhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1870248:date=Aug 20 2011, 02:43 PM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Aug 20 2011, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870248"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't script bunnyhop. What you can do is use a 3-jump script, which triggers jump three times. Most players just bound jump to the mousewheel and used that. The biggest skill factor of bhop is the constant mouse movement required to gain speed, and incorporating it into the gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I stand corrected. However, one of the reasons that I lost interest in NS1 (even though it was a spectacular game) was that I found out early that if you didn't have certain scripts (i.e. machine pistol) you were leagues behind the average player in terms of competitive edge. I personally do not like scripts in any form for any game. I understand them, I know how to implement them, but I do not agree with what they represent. I won't call them a cheat but I do see them as an unfair advantage over a less experienced player who has no clue what they are or that they exist.
If this is all redundant I appologize but I am completely against client side scripts in any form for any game. My 2 cents.
If this is all redundant I appologize but I am completely against client side scripts in any form for any game. My 2 cents.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pistol script is the only script I can think of providing some consistent advantage. However, even I, a semi inactive commander can click quick enough to empty my pistol in devastating manner. All it takes is a comfortable mouse (Diamondback 3G for me) and some regular play to be close enough to the rate of fire cap of the pistol.
Certainly scripts provide some slight advantages and comfort, but in no way any script will make or break you as a player. If you want an absolutely level playing field, I'd say you have to worry about gamma, hardware, connections, the effects of various FPS rates and all that before you should start worrying about scripts that much.
As a result, every other game gets the same treatment, with the same people whining that their script won't give them an advantage any more, when it SHOULD, and anyone else could download the same script if they were leet too.
Leave it out. Fix the game speeds on a base level, not by replicating an outdated twitch-glitch forcibly kept in place by loud asshats.
You want skill-based movement? Go Lerk and practice flying. You know, an actual <b>skill</b> (not <i>script</i>) based movement system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excellent satire, you should look into a job for The Onion.
Certainly scripts provide some slight advantages and comfort, but in no way any script will make or break you as a player. If you want an absolutely level playing field, I'd say you have to worry about gamma, hardware, connections, the effects of various FPS rates and all that before you should start worrying about scripts that much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The machine gun pistol script was horrible at one point. I used it myself. I think the devs addressed it a while ago but I think the speed cap was set differently early on and that script made every bullet leave the gun almost instantly with near perfect accuracy. There were also some basic control scripts that I'm sure will not be seen as game breaking but still add that little advantage that I feel is not needed.
I agree that there are other factors involved with leveling the playfield aside from scripts. Gamma adjustments being the another big thorn in my side, especially for a game that uses light and dark as much as NS2. Is this something that is controllable? I've watched over someone's shoulder playing ns1 with ridiculous gamma settings that actually allowed him to see cloaked aliens pretty easily. So yes, another area that needs addressing.
Hardware and connection is not really controllable by the dev's aside from optimizing, but if you are unable to play a game on low settings at a steady 60 frames then it's time to upgrade. And if your ping is >100 it's time to find a new server. My opinion is biased because I tend to always have a rather beastly machine and my connection is quite solid so I have never had complaints in that regard.
I should shut up about scripts and client side adjustments now as I have taken this thread off topic.
The pistol has perfect (yes, perfect, not near perfect) accuracy with and without scripts, it doesn't matter how fast it shoots. Back in version 1.04 there was no cap on the fire rate, so some people made a script that basically shot 10 bullets in 1 shot. That was obviously not cool and was immediately banned from tournaments and the whole problem disappeared a short while later when the pistol fire rate was capped in version 2.01.
Since then pretty much anyone who isn't a mentally or physically impaired in some way can fire the pistol at the max ROF with a little practice. With a lot of practice, you can do it accurately in combat too. The popular 2 shot pistol script eliminates a little of that practice requirement to keep accuracy, but honestly the difference is negligible. I was a better shot without a pistol script 5 years ago, than I am with one now...
<!--quoteo(post=1870279:date=Aug 20 2011, 11:26 PM:name=Dank McShwagger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dank McShwagger @ Aug 20 2011, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that there are other factors involved with leveling the playfield aside from scripts. Gamma adjustments being the another big thorn in my side, especially for a game that uses light and dark as much as NS2. Is this something that is controllable? I've watched over someone's shoulder playing ns1 with ridiculous gamma settings that actually allowed him to see cloaked aliens pretty easily. So yes, another area that needs addressing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gamma adjusments can't be sensibly enforced, period. Partly because hardware affects it in a big way (ever wonder why all games ask you to adjust gamma in the first place?) and partly because it would require draconian methods that would do more harm than good.
Gamma has never affected how well you can see cloaked aliens. Prior to version 3.1 (at least I think it was 3.1), aliens were only cloaked 95% so you could see their outlines moving about if you knew what to look for. Now they're 100% cloaked and impossible to spot.
Personally I wouldn't mind a Quake-style bunnyhopping on skulks (with the space-bar hammering). Either that, or the skulk running-speed has to increase 3-fold, because right now it's depressingly slow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was heavily into bhopping and still know how to do it. However, I always thought it was incredible UNFAIR for users that do not know how to use it. A bhopping Onos moving at the speed of a Skulk, does that make sense? Bunny hopping is in the past, I wish all my fellow NS1 vets could just let it go... Its better for gameplay in general...
+1
Well, the argument is truly unnecessary as UWE has apparently decided to not include a bunny hopping system in NS2 (which I am fully in support of). The only players that complain about it are the old school Quake/UT/NS1 players.
As much as I loved exploiting bunny hopping in TFC/Half-Life Deathmatch/Counter Strike/Natural Selection (wow, this seems to be a pattern of Valve titles/mods), I'm glad the current generation and future generation games are not including this.
Unless the implementation makes sense to physics (such as putting over spin on a ball when you throw it will cause the ball to speed up when it moves), then it's just a way to satisfy the old farts that play NS2 :)
No more unfair than certain players knowing "how to use" some other aspect of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1872301:date=Aug 31 2011, 04:52 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 31 2011, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A bhopping Onos moving at the speed of a Skulk, does that make sense?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except the Onos doesn't move at the speed of a Skulk, unless the Skulk isn't bunnyhopping, and even then the Onos is actually slower in NS. In fact though, nobody's arguing that the Onos should be able to bunnyhop. Giving the Onos the same movement penalties as a marine (with regards to repeated jumps) wouldn't be difficult at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1872301:date=Aug 31 2011, 04:52 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Aug 31 2011, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872301"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping is in the past, I wish all my fellow NS1 vets could just let it go... Its better for gameplay in general...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except it isn't. If you could be bothered to read the arguments posted you would see that there are two trains of thought going on: One is the argument that bunnyhopping makes the game much deeper and therefore more fun to play. The other is the argument for bunnyhopping on the basis that it is a necessity to properly balance melee vs. ranged. Both emphatically lead to the conclusion that bunnyhopping improves gameplay. Certainly you can argue against that, but simply stating that "(no bunnyhopping is) better for gameplay in general" has no merit.
Except the Onos doesn't move at the speed of a Skulk, unless the Skulk isn't bunnyhopping, and even then the Onos is actually slower in NS. In fact though, nobody's arguing that the Onos should be able to bunnyhop. Giving the Onos the same movement penalties as a marine (with regards to repeated jumps) wouldn't be difficult at all.
Except it isn't. If you could be bothered to read the arguments posted you would see that there are two trains of thought going on: One is the argument that bunnyhopping makes the game much deeper and therefore more fun to play. The other is the argument for bunnyhopping on the basis that it is a necessity to properly balance melee vs. ranged. Both emphatically lead to the conclusion that bunnyhopping improves gameplay. Certainly you can argue against that, but simply stating that "(no bunnyhopping is) better for gameplay in general" has no merit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->+9000<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<ul><li>Like? Please give me an example. I sure hope you don't say point and shooting...</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=1872320:date=Aug 31 2011, 01:36 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 31 2011, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except the Onos doesn't move at the speed of a Skulk, unless the Skulk isn't bunnyhopping, and even then the Onos is actually slower in NS. In fact though, nobody's arguing that the Onos should be able to bunnyhop. Giving the Onos the same movement penalties as a marine (with regards to repeated jumps) wouldn't be difficult at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ol type='1'><li>This was rather confusing... Load up NS1 and walk normal as a Skulk and then bhop with a ONOS and see who wins the distance race between the two classes. That makes sense to you that a creature 5x the size of another can move faster because it is hopping? Really?</li></ol>
<!--quoteo(post=1872320:date=Aug 31 2011, 01:36 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 31 2011, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except it isn't. If you could be bothered to read the arguments posted you would see that there are two trains of thought going on: One is the argument that bunnyhopping makes the game much deeper and therefore more fun to play. The other is the argument for bunnyhopping on the basis that it is a necessity to properly balance melee vs. ranged. Both emphatically lead to the conclusion that bunnyhopping improves gameplay. Certainly you can argue against that, but simply stating that "(no bunnyhopping is) better for gameplay in general" has no merit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ul><li>I'm not sure where this conclusion came from because the only one I've seen anyone come to was the "agree to disagree". </li><li>Bunny hopping makes the game deeper? What does that even mean? Properly balancing Melee vs. Ranged? Last time I checked the Skulk was very effective at killing in NS2 ranged or not. The Skulk is made to work in a group (pub or team play) and to lurk in dark areas throughout the map and ambush Marines. I think you are referring to a competitive play style crowd which is <b>not</b> what UWE is trying to develop and sell too.</li></ul>
Still, I only see former HL1/HL1 Mod older players arguing the the implementation of bunny hopping. I have yet to really come across a new comer saying "Yes, I think having the ability to triple ones speed by space bar spamming (let's not pretend like this takes a whole lot of skill) is an effective feature I would like for a game".
To all those PRO bhopping, I am sure someone will release a fun little MOD for you to play with. However, at this point UWE is very clear that bhopping is not a feature they plan to implement. If you want bhopping, load up NS1/HL1/CS and bunny hop to your hearts content.
It becomes relevant again since the game can be easily modded to such an extend to re-introduce this feature.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only players that complain about it are the old school Quake/UT/NS1 players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a bit of a guess on your part. Assuming this is true, it is only because players of these games have known and enjoyed this movement-mechanic, where-as 'newcomers' (ea. post 2003-ish) are quite oblivious regarding it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As much as I loved exploiting bunny hopping in TFC/Half-Life Deathmatch/Counter Strike/Natural Selection (wow, this seems to be a patter of Valve titles/mods), I'm glad the current generation and future generation games are not including this.
Unless the implementation makes sense to physics (such as putting over spin on a ball when you throw it will cause the ball to speed up when it moves), then it's just a way to satisfy the old farts that play NS2 :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yet again you avoid the question as to why bunnyhopping should not be introduced.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was rather confusing... Load up NS1 and walk normal as a Skulk and then bhop with a ONOS and see who wins the distance race between the two classes. That makes sense to you that a creature 5x the size of another can move faster because it is hopping? Really?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Semantics, already replied to this one, it can be easily fixed with a speed-cap (or whichever other solution you can come up with, maybe disable it entirely for the Onos\Heavy-armor).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping makes the game deeper? What does that even mean? Properly balancing Melee vs. Ranged? Last time I checked the Skulk was very effective at killing in NS2 ranged or not. The Skulk is made to work in a group (pub or team play) and to lurk in dark areas throughout the map and ambush Marines. I think you are referring to a competitive play style crowd which is not what UWE is trying to develop and sell too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The skulk does not work in ranged combat at all, the NS1-skulk wasn't fantastic at it either but that was in-line with it's gameplay-role, in NS2 it is downright useless with range, there is no way to quickly close the gap between a marine (this was reasonbly do-able in NS1). Also, a lone-skulk was a very common phenomenon in NS1, you're not going to get any map-control if the only way to do it is to move in hordes (too large a maps, and I'm not talking about rockdown).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still, I only see former HL1/HL1 Mod older players arguing the the implementation of bunny hopping. I have yet to really come across a new comer saying "Yes, I think having the ability to triple ones speed by space bar spamming (let's not pretend like this takes a whole lot of skill) is an effective feature I would like for a game".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See above.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To all those PRO bhopping, I am sure someone will release a fun little MOD for you to play with. However, at this point UWE is very clear that bhopping is not a feature they plan to implement. If you want bhopping, load up NS1/HL1/CS and bunny hop to your hearts content.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I want is a proper NS2, and the sluggish-gameplay we're stuck with at the moment just isn't it.
Even hiding with skulk works against marines, I dont see it as fun as bh from corner and rushing marines down with 1-2 other skulks. It gives depth / choices to alien gameplay.
And no one has done it to explore the possibility why again? hmm...
<!--quoteo(post=1872336:date=Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a bit of a guess on your part. Assuming this is true, it is only because players of these games have known and enjoyed this movement-mechanic, where-as 'newcomers' (ea. post 2003-ish) are quite oblivious regarding it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because someone likes the way the NES controller felt in my hand doesn't mean Nintendo has to make a classic version for their modern product to satisfy their "old school" players. Think about it...
<!--quoteo(post=1872336:date=Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yet again you avoid the question as to why bunnyhopping should not be introduced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being able to bunny hop should not decide a match or a game in a public server. UWE made the right decision by giving every class a set speed and haven't it set throughout all skill levels. Producing an impressive K:D ratio and being on the winning team now relies on individual skill to point and shoot (the point of FPS) and working as a team.
<!--quoteo(post=1872336:date=Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Semantics, already replied to this one, it can be easily fixed with a speed-cap (or whichever other solution you can come up with, maybe disable it entirely for the Onos\Heavy-armor).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, there is your MOD. Create it and go play it. If the turn out is more than enough to have UWE look into this issue again, maybe your bunny hopping concept will be re-thought by the developers.
<!--quoteo(post=1872336:date=Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The skulk does not work in ranged combat at all, the NS1-skulk wasn't fantastic at it either but that was in-line with it's gameplay-role, in NS2 it is downright useless with range, there is no way to quickly close the gap between a marine (this was reasonbly do-able in NS1). Also, a lone-skulk was a very common phenomenon in NS1, you're not going to get any map-control if the only way to do it is to move in hordes (too large a maps, and I'm not talking about rockdown).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When was the Skulk meant to be effective in Ranged battle? Tier 2 (Leap) fixes the disadvantages of Ranged combat with the Skulk class. The early game is mean for Skulks to work in groups and flank Marines attempting to expand. Once again, you referring to an old mechanic system that is nearly extinct in all modern games. Natural Selection 2 is considered a future "Modern Game" right?
<!--quoteo(post=1872336:date=Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 31 2011, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1872336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I want is a proper NS2, and the sluggish-gameplay we're stuck with at the moment just isn't it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We all don't always get what we want and I don't see this being something that UWE changes in Natural Selection 2. If they decide to re-implement the mechanics, I will adapt and live with their choice. As of right now, being a NS1 and HL1 player, I adapted and learned how to play without needing bunny hopping...
Trust me, I understand your point of view, I just think that the past is the past and it's time to move on. If UWE plans to re-introduce bunny hopping is a new way, I am more than receptive to using it. However, the old bunny hopping system is a relic of the past and if one wants to revisit that relic, then play an old (no longer support in most cases) title...
Wait.. Are you saying people arent asking for a feature they know nothing about?!?! Are you FOR REALS?
Try spamming space bar and bunny hop... At least PRETEND to know what you are talking about. Space bar couldnt be used unless you have a 3jump script or you change your jump button to mouse wheel up/down like i did. It was a very hard thing to master and i still dont have it down. Plus the jump is only 1/4 of bunny hopping (3Jump, Mouse movement, Strafe keys, momentum, and path (brief stab at the elements.))
</b>
By your example we should use mice and keyboards. They have been around a long time.
<b>"Being able to bunny hop should not decide a match or a game in a public server. UWE made the right decision by giving every class a set speed and haven't it set throughout all skill levels. Producing an impressive K:D ratio and being on the winning team now relies on individual skill to point and shoot (the point of FPS) and working as a team."
</b>
It never decided anything. Dont exaggerate. It just so happen that most if not all the good players could bunny hop which defined them through skilled movement as any game does.
<b>"Well, there is your MOD. Create it and go play it. If the turn out is more than enough to have UWE look into this issue again, maybe your bunny hopping concept will be re-thought by the developers."
</b>
Glad you said this. WHEW. Now the devs have your blessing.
<b>"When was the Skulk meant to be effective in Ranged battle? Tier 2 (Leap) fixes the disadvantages of Ranged combat with the Skulk class. The early game is mean for Skulks to work in groups and flank Marines attempting to expand. Once again, you referring to an old mechanic system that is nearly extinct in all modern games. Natural Selection 2 is considered a future "Modern Game" right?"</b>
Wrong. Aliens have always had to spread out and use map control to their advantage. Parasite and stalk prey. Public or competitive games there were never more than 2 skulks together especially early game when half your team was doing others things and you had to cover each entry point to alien territory. So i say yet again, dont speak of things you obviously know nothing about to make your point.
<b>"We all don't always get what we want and I don't see this being something that UWE changes in Natural Selection 2. If they decide to re-implement the mechanics, I will adapt and live with their choice. As of right now, being a NS1 and HL1 player, I adapted and learned how to play without needing bunny hopping..."
</b>
You adapted and learned how to not bunny hop? So you couldnt and failed at it. Glad to hear it.
<b>"Trust me, I understand your point of view, I just think that the past is the past and it's time to move on. If UWE plans to re-introduce bunny hopping is a new way, I am more than receptive to using it. However, the old bunny hopping system is a relic of the past and if one wants to revisit that relic, then play an old (no longer support in most cases) title..."</b>
No you dont. As you have just said if they implement it you will use it. We want it in. You seem to not mind either way, so WHAT ARE YOU ARGUEING ABOUT. It may be a relic, but it was a interesting element of the game that defined NS and can be found in every (if not all almost all) skill based videos.
Have fun playing SSBM with the Wii Nunchakus.
Try spamming space bar and bunny hop... At least PRETEND to know what you are talking about. Space bar couldnt be used unless you have a 3jump script or you change your jump button to mouse wheel up/down like i did. It was a very hard thing to master and i still dont have it down. Plus the jump is only 1/4 of bunny hopping (3Jump, Mouse movement, Strafe keys, momentum, and path (brief stab at the elements.))<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what the hell are you talking about? You make no sense. You basically just stated you didn't learn how to bunny hop without scripts and .exe files. Idiot.
I'll continue my dialog/debate with <b>player</b>.
P.S. - I was exi.longtermFX apart of a team of skilled NS1 players, if you knew anything about the original competitive NS1, you would know exigent. I do know what I am talking about in terms of bhopping and I do know that the only other teams that gave exigent or terror any form of run for their money were other teams that knew how to use bunny hopping effectively. Not a single team that didn't bunny hop made it anywhere close to being able to play against the top tier teams.
Who the hell are you again and when did you ever play NS1? It never decided anything? You have absolutely no clue what your talking about.
Your a meatball, where is the block feature on this forum again? I am getting sick of trolls licking my grundle.
I'm too tired of arguing with people who have all sorts of opinions but no knowledge to back it up with, to reply to the rest of your post. If you want to educate yourself on the debates we've had on the subject here previously, you can read this: <a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/" target="_blank">http://www.ninelegends.com/the-argument-for-bunnyhopping/</a> The response from the anti-bh side has largely been of the "it looks lame, it's difficult to learn, it's overpowered, it's elitist, it's not how ns was meant to be played, it's an exploit" kind, all of which can be addressed easily or are simply untrue.
I'm not going to comment on whatever it is he wrote, but I will clarify a misunderstanding that gets brought up here often: In NS you DID NOT NEED a script or hacks of any kind, nor did you even need a mousewheel. Many accomplished top players (zaiko of Bacon Men fame being a prime example) used space bar to bunnyhop and still excelled at both bunnyhopping and playing the game in general. It is however true that using a script or mousewheel makes timing the jumps easier as there is a much larger margin of error. This could be easily rectified by implementing a queued jump system.
As for your "involvement" with exigent, considering you didn't play the game for them, it doesn't give you any credibility if that's what you were hoping for.
I'll continue my dialog/debate with <b>player</b>.
P.S. - I am exi.longtermFX, if you knew anything about the original competitive NS1, you would know exigent. I do know what I am talking about and I do know that the only other teams that gave exigent or terror any form of run for our money were other teams that knew how to use bunny hopping (just not as well). Not a SINGLE team that didn't bunny hop and exploit it EVER made it anywhere close to being able to play against the top tier teams. Who the hell are you again and when did you ever play NS1? It never decided anything? You have absolutely no clue what your talking about.
Your a meatball, where is the block feature on this forum again? I am getting sick of trolls licking my grundle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finally resorted to name calling eh? As soon as you start you have already lost the argument because you have nothing worth saying back. Good Job! I will clarify my post and say that i learned to bunny hop by using mousewheel. Not a script or .exe, so good job at misreading yet another post.
So continue your dialog/debate by adding a pointless P.S. and not adding anything to your post. I honestly didnt know who you were and am kind of saddened to think you were apart of Exigent. I know a lot of those guys and have met a couple irl. Didnt know they let people like you in the guild. The people in Exi i knew had class.
As to who i am, i was in the community sporadically and never claimed to be pro. The only claim to fame i have is putting together a decent team (DoM if i remember right) that had great players, but fell apart quickly in a tumultuous clan scene. I was not included since i was not skilled enough to join in (as i said i was sporadic in my play).
But hey, im the idiot right? At least i know the difference between your and you're.