3 skilled fade players are unstoppable vs 6 marines ... even if marines have all techs up and every kind of weapon.
One <b>great</b> think about fade is now, that he is noneffective against buildings. Damage is also adequate, but fade still have much HP/armor even he is so agile.
It must be blink-in .. kill one marine of 4 (NO MORE) .. blink out to survive, or try kill another marine and die ;)
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1869565:date=Aug 17 2011, 09:39 AM:name=Taxen0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Taxen0 @ Aug 17 2011, 09:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->then the marines will have to shoot 2-3 shots extra each. if you aim for the same fade and light 'em all on fire it should take about 6 skilled marines to get 4 fades without too much problems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without too much problems = "easy" ?
<!--quoteo(post=1869545:date=Aug 17 2011, 06:59 AM:name=Taxen0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Taxen0 @ Aug 17 2011, 06:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, get 3-4 marines and insta kill him?
I'm sorry, the marines are simply bad... They seemed to have plenty of times to slug it with shotgun shells and a fade don't survive that for any prolonged time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Show us with skilled marines. Im really tired of posts like this.
Lets put a demonstration How-to Video on youtube of your skilled marine-team. But we must hurry, new version is out in a few days.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
edited August 2011
Melee attacks have no buildup time, all of the time an attack takes is in the "cooldown", ie the time before you can attack again.
This means that when a fade exits blink (or attacks from cloak), he can attack immediately. With the animation being "correct" on the recipient end (ie, if you are lagged, you don't see the start of the animation), this will look like the exit from blink and the attack is pretty much simultaneous.
With fades doing 2-swipe kills, the second attack comes in .7 seconds after the first attack FROM THE POV OF THE FADE. Add in some lag etc, and the time from when a marine first becomes aware of the fade until he is dead is about 0.4 - .5 seconds. With human reaction times in the .2-.3 secs , you have about .2 seconds time left to hurt the fade.
Good luck with that.
Pre 1.84, the fade had to swipe three times to kill, adding .7 more seconds to his TTK, ,meaning that you had about 1 second effective time to kill him rather than .2-.3 sec. Time to actually dodge and shoot. Yea, you would loose, but at least you could pretend to put up a fight.
Also, because the fade now have to swipe only 2/3ds as many times, he has effectivly got 50% more kills for the same amount of energy.
So, IMO, the fundamental addition reason why 1.84 fades are such a ###### to play against is the 30% extra damage bonus they got in 1.84.
The easy fix is just to change Swipe.kDamageType from Puncture to Normal (puncture gives a 30% bonus vs players). Problem solved (or at least a big step towards solving the problem).
<!--quoteo(post=1869575:date=Aug 17 2011, 11:32 AM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Aug 17 2011, 11:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869575"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Without too much problems = "easy" ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No.
<!--quoteo(post=1869575:date=Aug 17 2011, 11:32 AM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Aug 17 2011, 11:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869575"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Show us with skilled marines. Im really tired of posts like this.
Lets put a demonstration How-to Video on youtube of your skilled marine-team. But we must hurry, new version is out in a few days.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The discussion is void, as the fade, and most likely most other things will be reworked.
still, Most clans or people using VoIP should be able to do it sense it's not really hard. you might think so, and fine. It might be hard for you so I'm not going to dispute that.
All it takes is team-work, (1-2 flamers, rest shotgun, 1 GL could also work). don't blob, spread out a bit and don't have the flamers running next to each other. Attack the same target, this is important. because a fade will go down REALLY fast when it's on fire and facing ~4 shotguns, the GL is good for killing fades that run away with no energy. when a flamer marine die, pick up his weapon if there is need for it. (you need at least 1 flamer) marines should be on the move and never be stationary, but that goes for all fights so most know this. This might not work all the time, and requires to be at least on par with the aliens in tech.
I just get annoyed at ppl saying "X is OP because <b>I</b> cant kill it! nerf pls!" and similar things. is it too hard for a pub game to kill fades? probably, as we can't expect the teamwork required to pull it off. (that's why it will get reworked) but it's not impossible, I have managed to get a good amount of fade kills with randoms in public play as well. And playing as the fade I have also been killed in 2 secs after leaving blink when facing a good group of marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1869470:date=Aug 16 2011, 11:45 PM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Aug 16 2011, 11:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm... I guess the Fade wouldn't be a Fade if he wasn't a bad-ass-m*********r. What options are there to nerf him without removing his ability to bring terror to the marines as soon as they hear the blink sound?
A blink to attack delay is going to make him feel non-responsive, and will cause agro from new players especially.
A shotgun buff will cause other aliens to get clobbered too hard. (Same goes for the flamer).
A health decrease is going to make him die too quickly. Though I think 300->250 would be survivable.
Perhaps the problem is not that the fade is too powerful, its that the opportunity cost of going fade is too low. That is, if the aliens are capable of getting 3 fades in a 9v9, then they're not spending enough resources on other stuff. 'Other Stuff' can be Lerks, Gorges, Hydras, and upgrades. So perhaps when the Lerk becomes more powerful, the Gorge becomes more crucial, and upgrade choices become more plentiful, we will see less Fades on the field.
Ideally, I think the Fade should remain incredibly bad-ass. Aliens should just be punished for saving too much res for him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's rather counterintuitive, 'you can save up for this god mode alien but if you do you'll probably lose'. Good way to make fun and winning diametrically opposed.
You need to find a balance for it, not just hope people don't use it much.
I think it's funny that no matter how overpowered something is, you will always get people saying "just do THIS, it's not unbalanced, you are just a bad player!"
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2011
And instead of saying: "Sure, lets meet on your server and i show you that i am right" the theoretic "this must a good marineteam do" drivel began again.
Btw, sure i die as fade sometimes. But on this one die one my side, i had killed 20 marines minimum. So i earned enough res to evolve to fade without any problem and be there as a fade again 2 minutes later.
So, last offering: Show us/me how a skilled marineteam can handle a group of fades. And please: not that theoretic answers again. Just show it to the world.
The fade should not kill a lvl 3 armor player in 2 hits because there would be NO point at all researching armor 3 otherwise, since skulks kill a marine with 3 bites at both armor lvl 3 and 2... Also if the fade brings a 100health 90armor marine down to 10 health it would encourage the use of parasites and lerk gas to finish them off.
Now its just, ###### blinks infront of you and hits you and withing 0.75 secs he hits you again and your dead...
<!--quoteo(post=1869428:date=Aug 16 2011, 08:15 PM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Aug 16 2011, 08:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you are right, BUT in a public match you don't have the teamplay what is needed to kill a alien hive. and if you are lucky enough to find some teamplayers in a public game, often they don't have enough skill to stand against melee#1 skulks with armor#0 And usually.. if the marines get armor#1 the 2nd hive is already matured.
(to be honest.. I have trouble too to defeat a melee#1 skulk without armor#1 in a 1vs1... most of the time in a 1vs1 the skulk manages to bite me 2 times until I kill him. )<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just use Backstab of the LMG when a skulk is at 2m away. He will fly back and loose controls a bit. In Closecombat it is the best you can do, the range of it is the same (or even more) as the bite. If he can melee you, you can melee him! If you think on that while playing 1vs1 ends always as a win for the Marine ( Backstab does 35 DMG and this is almost 50% of Skulks HP)
I think the problem isn't the fade, it's lack of 3rd tier tech which makes boring endgames with marines stuck in their base; also marines are prone to overextending before they lose the game due to inability to counter aliens in T2 with their own T3 because T3 doesn't exist.
Fade would be ok if he had to trade a countdown until marines have T3 and would be FORCED play more aggressively and die more.
I think you need to buff the lerk and give more tech to both sides. Fade is fine.
people are simply too lazy too even try something "new", if they can't rambo and have their easy mode they will whine. yes the fade is too good now, but not nearly as good as you seem to think. I will try to get some fraps showing a flamer+ sg killing fade, not sure what it will prove.. (that they die if you shoot enough?) Seeing that the patch is coming and I only play some during weekends we'll see if I manage to make it.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1869758:date=Aug 18 2011, 08:26 AM:name=Taxen0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Taxen0 @ Aug 18 2011, 08:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will try to get some fraps showing a flamer+ sg killing fade, not sure what it will prove.. (that they die if you shoot enough?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If fade is friend of yours, and he is just dying for the video, this prove nothing. Only that fades can die. And sure they can.
You are from Sweden. Lets meet on our Server (HBZ): You with some skilled Marinefriends, me with some skilled Fades and a neutral cameraman and then you can show me how a skilled marineteam can handle a group of fades.
I offered this the 3th time now but it seems you wont like to do that. Hmm, wonder why
And i invite everyone who said: "fades are not op" to this little demonstration. As i said before: we must hurry, new version coming soon.
Im sure, NOONE of the "fade is ok at is it"- fraction, will come to this "experiment".
<!--quoteo(post=1869761:date=Aug 18 2011, 08:47 AM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Aug 18 2011, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If fade is friend of yours, and he is just dying for the video, this prove nothing. Only that fades can die. And sure they can.
Dont know where you from. Lets meet on a Server: You with some skilled Marinefriends, me with some skilled Fades and a neutral cameraman and then you can show me how a skilled marineteam can handle a group of fades.
I offered this the 3th time now but it seems you wont like to do that. Hmm, wonder why<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I had you pegged for a pretty good player at first, so I thought that simply telling you how would be enough, apparently this wasn't the case. (I don't think you even gave it a serious attempt).
As I said, I can't play much, only some during the weekends, and you want me to organize all 6 of us, and sync it with when you can on a few days notice? right..
the best "offer" I can give you is when me and hopefully 2 of my friends play some on a regular server, I can show you when I connect, even though that wont prove anything.
If that's not enough for you, well, too bad.
Hopefully we will get a new fade this weekend, if not, I and many others will continue to enjoy the game as marines, and you and the majority can continue to play like it's singleplayer and cry about it =)
<!--quoteo(post=1869482:date=Aug 17 2011, 12:14 AM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Aug 17 2011, 12:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Care to share what that is? The design document has a spot for it, but it was never filled in. Looking forward to it regardless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Natural Selection 2 Facebook)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Natural Selection 2 Facebook)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tuning Fade to harass and assassinate more, while being less of a tank.
Bumped his acceleration while ethereal. Dropped health from 300 to 200. Decreased continuous blink energy cost and added an initial cost so he blinks a bit more intentionally. Altered damage and puncture damage type to make him very effective vs. marines and less against structures. Decreased swipe energy cost and increased swipe ROF to make sure he's never waiting around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
<!--quoteo(post=1869761:date=Aug 18 2011, 01:47 AM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Aug 18 2011, 01:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If fade is friend of yours, and he is just dying for the video, this prove nothing. Only that fades can die. And sure they can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait... so unless <i>you</i> are playing the Fade, even making a video of how to do it right doesn't prove anything... because the Fade must have been in on it, and dying intentionally to make a fake video? Holy wow, I'm not sure if that's one part paranoia and two parts denial, or vice-versa.
The fade would be fine if marine got their last tier weapons.
It is true that you can kill a fade real quick but when this happens he has usually 100 or more res so he'll be back in no time. If 3 fade's coördinate an a attack on multiple marines while attacking different targets then the marines are screwed. There is no way they could kill 3 fades ,who can aim, coming in with a plan.
<!--quoteo(post=1869775:date=Aug 18 2011, 11:51 AM:name=Talesin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talesin @ Aug 18 2011, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait... so unless <i>you</i> are playing the Fade, even making a video of how to do it right doesn't prove anything... because the Fade must have been in on it, and dying intentionally to make a fake video? Holy wow, I'm not sure if that's one part paranoia and two parts denial, or vice-versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen this trick used in other beta's / retail games in the past. :p
<!--quoteo(post=1869776:date=Aug 18 2011, 11:30 AM:name=De_willy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (De_willy @ Aug 18 2011, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no way they could kill 3 fades ,who can aim, coming in with a plan.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would certainly make it much more difficult. but, how often does that happen? even less than a coordinated marine team.
Gameplay is seriously broken at the mo. Just played a game where marines (I was comm, had a great team 5v5) dominated data core and heliport. Aliens got a stealth hive up in crossroads and we had at 50% by the time it was built. First fade came and the game was over. We had all upgrades and weapons and still couldn't pull the game back.
Heavy armour and miniguns need to be implemented ASAP or the fade needs to be nerfed for the time being to stop these frustrating games.
Actually in this build I solo'd a fade from what I think was full health. Slow pistol from far away before blinking then I got 3 perfect sg hits point blank but he did miss 1-2 swipes and blinked one too many times so he wasn't perfect. If I were playing the fade it would have gone differently.
Better performance will help marines against fades, and higher tech for marines will force more aggressive fade play so they'll die more like NS1. You can't die as a decent fade in NS1 either unless you are forced to play aggressively. But...
<b>That's the whole point of the dynamic!</b> Marines must force fade aggressive play, to win by playing aggressively themselves and taking more territory than they can easily defend but so they can tech up. Because otherwise fades(and onos) are too strong. <b>THIS IS THE CORE OF NS.</b>
I love playing the fade currently. I know that once I get that 50 res and spawn in as a fade, it's pretty much a guaranteed victory.
Once that 50 res hits and I can morph into a fade, it's all "go into marine start and aggravate their entire team so that they lose focus on capturing res". Just warp into their base until the marine team starts shooting you, then morph around a bit while the marine team wastes ammo trying to hit you. Once everyone's clips are empty, go in for 2-4 kills. Rinse and repeat. Warping also confuses sentry turrets which is great.
Meanwhile the rest of the alien team can focus on expanding resource points, until marines are cornered in their base and are forced to use turtle tactics or, as I am seeing a lot lately, they just recycle their base.
I'll be sad to see the fade nerfed, as I remember a few betas back, the fade was nerfed so bad, people just ended up not bothering with it because skulk was better.
So in short, it would be great if they kept the fade the way it is (unfortunately doubtful due to the server stats showing how overpowered it is), but I guess it is a beta and there will be some growing pains. Hopefully the jetpack/heavy armor/miniguns/onos will be implemented soon.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1869789:date=Aug 18 2011, 05:22 AM:name=SteelBlade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SteelBlade @ Aug 18 2011, 05:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869789"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gameplay is seriously broken at the mo. Just played a game where marines (I was comm, had a great team 5v5) dominated data core and heliport. Aliens got a stealth hive up in crossroads and we had at 50% by the time it was built. First fade came and the game was over. We had all upgrades and weapons and still couldn't pull the game back.
Heavy armour and miniguns need to be implemented ASAP or the fade needs to be nerfed for the time being to stop these frustrating games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find that while NS2 heavily favours aliens in smaller games, with both sides almost evenly matched so when the teams are larger (9v9).
Two Fades can easily overpower four Marines. However, a group of organize Marines with a mix of Shotguns, Grenade launchers, and Flamethrowers can easily mow down waves of Skulks, Lerks, and even force Fade to retreat. Marines are suppose to use AOE ranged weapons to their advantage, laying down suppression fire, and forcing Fades to exhaust their energy on trying to approach marines.
One marine tactic I find to be effective, is ducking down when you're on the front of the squad, when engaging Fades. Your life may be shortened by one second, but the Marines behind you will be able to unload a lot more bullets into the Fade, and possibly deal a large blow to the alien team.
Hm many people say the Fade is alright when the Marines get their T3 Tech... The T3 Tech is against the Alien T3 Tech. You have to kill the Onos with the Jetpack or Exosuit and Minigun.
One Fade can kill a group of 4 marines with 3 times going in. So 3 Fades kill 12 Marines..... That is more than an entire Marine Team. So the Aliens can add some bilebomb Gorges and Skulks to kill the Buildings.
And to say the Fade is alright, just buff the Lerk is the most stupig suggestion i have ever heard. Thats what we saw in patch 183 with the imba lerk Gas. UWE made a quick balance patch to solve the Lerk problem.
I know it is not easy to balance the game and it will even change with other Player tactics, but right now it isn´t balanced at all. In my opinion it is still the shotgun nerf which killed the balance. It is now much to expensive so you need all your pres in the early and can´t afford enough FTs and GLs to counter the Fades. I saw so many marine teams with just 1 FT and 1 SG and 2 LMG, because they had to less money. You got the Tech but not the PRes to counter the Fades. Even with full equiped marines it is not easy.
The crazy thing is that the marines play much more in teams and are doing better then the aliens. Think of an alien team which is making teamwork. It will totally destroy marineteams. The next patch will bring pheromons that will help the aliens to organize themselves.
I am happy to read that UWE will patch the Fade. Thank you very much!!!
In one game we had, the marines were able to push out from their main. We (the Aliens) had the entire map, and some good fades. The Marines turtled up but stopped being rambo-rines and worked together on just one side and pushed the aliens really hard that we actually started to 'break apart'. Before we knew it,we lost crossroads, then heli. Then they built in Heli so even after we took MS it didn't matter. They also had quite a few power packs too. In the End, we actually lost, despite fades.
A good Marine team,even if backed into a corner, CAN emerge victorious,even if they have fades. It's all about using GLs and FTs, as well as shotties effectively. Working together is key.
Sure, one nice fade can wipe a group of marines, but if they have at least one FT then it'll make him back off. Stay in a defensive formation (couple in front, FT in back and maybe one guy covering his rear) and it could potentially work, especially if they have a GL. If he keeps coming back every short while after taking some nice damage, throw some nades around the corner when he runs away,there's probably a gorge there. If anything it may spook the gorge or get them to move backwards a bit.
Of course, as always, it's all very situational. The fades could be bad fades or the fades could be good fades, the marine comm need to be good for the marines to win,etc,etc, but there's always a chance for victory. Don't be so quick to throw your hands up and say it's a loss. If it's truly looking grim maybe one can sneak out and,instead of attacking hives,go for harvesters and use the vents thats on the ground for cover (like in crossroads)
The fade only comes across as Over Powered right now because this is BETA and the marines lack an effect counter to the fade. Given time the Marines tech tree will allow the marines to put the Fade in his place and the Onos will become the new OP topic.
If UWE nerf the Fade again right now, they will have to unnerf it once the next level of Tech is introduced.
120-180 kill streaks are very annoying to see and I wish that a group of marines could be more effective against a lone or group of fades, so I think the only chance is the addition of more marine tech soon.
Honestly I don't agree with that statement entirely Majin. Yes, the Fade is OP in major part because there is no Tier 3, I don't think fades will survive against a minigun. However, I think that's only part of the problem, Fades are Tier 2 tech, and should be countered effectively by Tier 2 tech, which they are not currently countered well by. Can you kill a fade? Oh absolutely, are fades and marine players of equal skill on equal ground with equal weapons? No. It's a lot easier to cut down one marine with a FT and blink away, go heal and return, than it is to take that one fade down.
The problem is multipart. First, the fade is just too good, all together, too much armor, too much damage with a res cost to match. The problem is you don't want players "buying victory." The fade should be easier to kill, do slightly less damage, and cost less than it does now (which I understand is only currently at this price because there is no Tier 3.) A fade should be more like a flame thrower, it changes the game play, it improves capabilities, but it doesn't make you a one man killing machine, a FT grunt is still attackable by aliens, even skulks I feel comfortable going after them, even against a ft/shotgun pair I feel comfortable assaulting with a skulk. As a rifle marine a fade is basically unassailable, partly because the rifle is sort of crappy, I'd much prefer that they did not nerf the skulk armor and just improved the rifle, you'd see a similar benefit (save shotguns wouldn't one hit skulks from quite so far away) against skulks but you'd gain a vastly improved effect from a team of rifle marines dumping fire into fades.
This is an FPS in the end, and so it shouldn't be running around with a MMORPG style kill system (great, extended effort expended on a kill), which the Fade currently represents, but rather the much faster paced "mess up and you die" mechanic that almost all FPS use.
Comments
One <b>great</b> think about fade is now, that he is noneffective against buildings.
Damage is also adequate, but fade still have much HP/armor even he is so agile.
It must be blink-in .. kill one marine of 4 (NO MORE) .. blink out to survive, or try kill another marine and die ;)
Without too much problems = "easy" ?
<!--quoteo(post=1869545:date=Aug 17 2011, 06:59 AM:name=Taxen0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Taxen0 @ Aug 17 2011, 06:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, get 3-4 marines and insta kill him?
I'm sorry, the marines are simply bad...
They seemed to have plenty of times to slug it with shotgun shells and a fade don't survive that for any prolonged time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Show us with skilled marines.
Im really tired of posts like this.
Lets put a demonstration How-to Video on youtube of your skilled marine-team.
But we must hurry, new version is out in a few days.
This means that when a fade exits blink (or attacks from cloak), he can attack immediately. With the animation being "correct" on the recipient end (ie, if you are lagged, you don't see the start of the animation), this will look like the exit from blink and the attack is pretty much simultaneous.
With fades doing 2-swipe kills, the second attack comes in .7 seconds after the first attack FROM THE POV OF THE FADE.
Add in some lag etc, and the time from when a marine first becomes aware of the fade until he is dead is about 0.4 - .5 seconds.
With human reaction times in the .2-.3 secs , you have about .2 seconds time left to hurt the fade.
Good luck with that.
Pre 1.84, the fade had to swipe three times to kill, adding .7 more seconds to his TTK, ,meaning that you had about 1 second effective time to kill him rather than .2-.3 sec. Time to actually dodge and shoot. Yea, you would loose, but at least you could pretend to put up a fight.
Also, because the fade now have to swipe only 2/3ds as many times, he has effectivly got 50% more kills for the same amount of energy.
So, IMO, the fundamental addition reason why 1.84 fades are such a ###### to play against is the 30% extra damage bonus they got in 1.84.
The easy fix is just to change Swipe.kDamageType from Puncture to Normal (puncture gives a 30% bonus vs players). Problem solved (or at least a big step towards solving the problem).
No.
<!--quoteo(post=1869575:date=Aug 17 2011, 11:32 AM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Aug 17 2011, 11:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869575"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Show us with skilled marines.
Im really tired of posts like this.
Lets put a demonstration How-to Video on youtube of your skilled marine-team.
But we must hurry, new version is out in a few days.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The discussion is void, as the fade, and most likely most other things will be reworked.
still, Most clans or people using VoIP should be able to do it sense it's not really hard.
you might think so, and fine. It might be hard for you so I'm not going to dispute that.
All it takes is team-work, (1-2 flamers, rest shotgun, 1 GL could also work).
don't blob, spread out a bit and don't have the flamers running next to each other.
Attack the same target, this is important. because a fade will go down REALLY fast when it's on fire and
facing ~4 shotguns, the GL is good for killing fades that run away with no energy.
when a flamer marine die, pick up his weapon if there is need for it. (you need at least 1 flamer)
marines should be on the move and never be stationary, but that goes for all fights so most know this.
This might not work all the time, and requires to be at least on par with the aliens in tech.
I just get annoyed at ppl saying "X is OP because <b>I</b> cant kill it! nerf pls!" and similar things.
is it too hard for a pub game to kill fades? probably, as we can't expect the teamwork required to pull it off. (that's why it will get reworked)
but it's not impossible, I have managed to get a good amount of fade kills with randoms in public play as well.
And playing as the fade I have also been killed in 2 secs after leaving blink when facing a good group of marines.
A blink to attack delay is going to make him feel non-responsive, and will cause agro from new players especially.
A shotgun buff will cause other aliens to get clobbered too hard. (Same goes for the flamer).
A health decrease is going to make him die too quickly. Though I think 300->250 would be survivable.
Perhaps the problem is not that the fade is too powerful, its that the opportunity cost of going fade is too low. That is, if the aliens are capable of getting 3 fades in a 9v9, then they're not spending enough resources on other stuff. 'Other Stuff' can be Lerks, Gorges, Hydras, and upgrades. So perhaps when the Lerk becomes more powerful, the Gorge becomes more crucial, and upgrade choices become more plentiful, we will see less Fades on the field.
Ideally, I think the Fade should remain incredibly bad-ass. Aliens should just be punished for saving too much res for him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's rather counterintuitive, 'you can save up for this god mode alien but if you do you'll probably lose'. Good way to make fun and winning diametrically opposed.
You need to find a balance for it, not just hope people don't use it much.
Btw, sure i die as fade sometimes. But on this one die one my side, i had killed 20 marines minimum. So i earned enough res to evolve to fade without any problem and be there as a fade again 2 minutes later.
So, last offering: Show us/me how a skilled marineteam can handle a group of fades. And please: not that theoretic answers again.
Just show it to the world.
Now its just, ###### blinks infront of you and hits you and withing 0.75 secs he hits you again and your dead...
in a public match you don't have the teamplay what is needed to kill a alien hive.
and if you are lucky enough to find some teamplayers in a public game, often they don't have enough skill to stand against melee#1 skulks with armor#0
And usually.. if the marines get armor#1 the 2nd hive is already matured.
(to be honest.. I have trouble too to defeat a melee#1 skulk without armor#1 in a 1vs1... most of the time in a 1vs1 the skulk manages to bite me 2 times until I kill him. )<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just use Backstab of the LMG when a skulk is at 2m away. He will fly back and loose controls a bit. In Closecombat it is the best you can do, the range of it is the same (or even more) as the bite. If he can melee you, you can melee him! If you think on that while playing 1vs1 ends always as a win for the Marine ( Backstab does 35 DMG and this is almost 50% of Skulks HP)
Fade would be ok if he had to trade a countdown until marines have T3 and would be FORCED play more aggressively and die more.
I think you need to buff the lerk and give more tech to both sides. Fade is fine.
yes the fade is too good now, but not nearly as good as you seem to think.
I will try to get some fraps showing a flamer+ sg killing fade, not sure what it will prove.. (that they die if you shoot enough?)
Seeing that the patch is coming and I only play some during weekends we'll see if I manage to make it.
If fade is friend of yours, and he is just dying for the video, this prove nothing. Only that fades can die. And sure they can.
You are from Sweden. Lets meet on our Server (HBZ): You with some skilled Marinefriends, me with some skilled Fades and a neutral cameraman and then you can show me how a skilled marineteam can handle a group of fades.
I offered this the 3th time now but it seems you wont like to do that.
Hmm, wonder why
And i invite everyone who said: "fades are not op" to this little demonstration.
As i said before: we must hurry, new version coming soon.
Im sure, NOONE of the "fade is ok at is it"- fraction, will come to this "experiment".
Dont know where you from. Lets meet on a Server: You with some skilled Marinefriends, me with some skilled Fades and a neutral cameraman and then you can show me how a skilled marineteam can handle a group of fades.
I offered this the 3th time now but it seems you wont like to do that.
Hmm, wonder why<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had you pegged for a pretty good player at first, so I thought that simply telling you how would be enough, apparently this wasn't the case. (I don't think you even gave it a serious attempt).
As I said, I can't play much, only some during the weekends, and you want me to organize all 6 of us, and sync it with when you can on a few days notice? right..
the best "offer" I can give you is when me and hopefully 2 of my friends play some on a regular server, I can show you when I connect, even though that wont prove anything.
If that's not enough for you, well, too bad.
Hopefully we will get a new fade this weekend, if not, I and many others will continue to enjoy the game as marines, and you and the majority can continue to play like it's singleplayer and cry about it =)
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Natural Selection 2 Facebook)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Natural Selection 2 Facebook)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tuning Fade to harass and assassinate more, while being less of a tank.
Bumped his acceleration while ethereal. Dropped health from 300 to 200. Decreased continuous blink energy cost and added an initial cost so he blinks a bit more intentionally. Altered damage and puncture damage type to make him very effective vs. marines and less against structures. Decreased swipe energy cost and increased swipe ROF to make sure he's never waiting around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait... so unless <i>you</i> are playing the Fade, even making a video of how to do it right doesn't prove anything... because the Fade must have been in on it, and dying intentionally to make a fake video?
Holy wow, I'm not sure if that's one part paranoia and two parts denial, or vice-versa.
It is true that you can kill a fade real quick but when this happens he has usually 100 or more res so he'll be back in no time.
If 3 fade's coördinate an a attack on multiple marines while attacking different targets then the marines are screwed. There is no way they could kill 3 fades ,who can aim, coming in with a plan.
<!--quoteo(post=1869775:date=Aug 18 2011, 11:51 AM:name=Talesin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talesin @ Aug 18 2011, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1869775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait... so unless <i>you</i> are playing the Fade, even making a video of how to do it right doesn't prove anything... because the Fade must have been in on it, and dying intentionally to make a fake video?
Holy wow, I'm not sure if that's one part paranoia and two parts denial, or vice-versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen this trick used in other beta's / retail games in the past. :p
That would certainly make it much more difficult. but, how often does that happen? even less than a coordinated marine team.
There people saying: Fades are not OP and stop whining (Taxen, Talesin,.). Other people like me said: It isnt funny to play marines, cause fades OP.
I say: Put this 2 groups on a server, and prove no matter what side. Answer: theoretic blabla
So thx, i was right.
I think this thread can be closed:
- patch is coming soon
- The "Stop whining"-fraction has not the courage to prove it.
gl hf.
Heavy armour and miniguns need to be implemented ASAP or the fade needs to be nerfed for the time being to stop these frustrating games.
Better performance will help marines against fades, and higher tech for marines will force more aggressive fade play so they'll die more like NS1. You can't die as a decent fade in NS1 either unless you are forced to play aggressively. But...
<b>That's the whole point of the dynamic!</b> Marines must force fade aggressive play, to win by playing aggressively themselves and taking more territory than they can easily defend but so they can tech up. Because otherwise fades(and onos) are too strong. <b>THIS IS THE CORE OF NS.</b>
Once that 50 res hits and I can morph into a fade, it's all "go into marine start and aggravate their entire team so that they lose focus on capturing res". Just warp into their base until the marine team starts shooting you, then morph around a bit while the marine team wastes ammo trying to hit you. Once everyone's clips are empty, go in for 2-4 kills. Rinse and repeat. Warping also confuses sentry turrets which is great.
Meanwhile the rest of the alien team can focus on expanding resource points, until marines are cornered in their base and are forced to use turtle tactics or, as I am seeing a lot lately, they just recycle their base.
I'll be sad to see the fade nerfed, as I remember a few betas back, the fade was nerfed so bad, people just ended up not bothering with it because skulk was better.
So in short, it would be great if they kept the fade the way it is (unfortunately doubtful due to the server stats showing how overpowered it is), but I guess it is a beta and there will be some growing pains. Hopefully the jetpack/heavy armor/miniguns/onos will be implemented soon.
Heavy armour and miniguns need to be implemented ASAP or the fade needs to be nerfed for the time being to stop these frustrating games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find that while NS2 heavily favours aliens in smaller games, with both sides almost evenly matched so when the teams are larger (9v9).
Two Fades can easily overpower four Marines. However, a group of organize Marines with a mix of Shotguns, Grenade launchers, and Flamethrowers can easily mow down waves of Skulks, Lerks, and even force Fade to retreat. Marines are suppose to use AOE ranged weapons to their advantage, laying down suppression fire, and forcing Fades to exhaust their energy on trying to approach marines.
One marine tactic I find to be effective, is ducking down when you're on the front of the squad, when engaging Fades. Your life may be shortened by one second, but the Marines behind you will be able to unload a lot more bullets into the Fade, and possibly deal a large blow to the alien team.
The T3 Tech is against the Alien T3 Tech. You have to kill the Onos with the Jetpack or Exosuit and Minigun.
One Fade can kill a group of 4 marines with 3 times going in. So 3 Fades kill 12 Marines..... That is more than an entire Marine Team. So the Aliens can add some bilebomb Gorges and Skulks to kill the Buildings.
And to say the Fade is alright, just buff the Lerk is the most stupig suggestion i have ever heard. Thats what we saw in patch 183 with the imba lerk Gas. UWE made a quick balance patch to solve the Lerk problem.
I know it is not easy to balance the game and it will even change with other Player tactics, but right now it isn´t balanced at all.
In my opinion it is still the shotgun nerf which killed the balance. It is now much to expensive so you need all your pres in the early and can´t afford enough FTs and GLs to counter the Fades. I saw so many marine teams with just 1 FT and 1 SG and 2 LMG, because they had to less money. You got the Tech but not the PRes to counter the Fades.
Even with full equiped marines it is not easy.
The crazy thing is that the marines play much more in teams and are doing better then the aliens. Think of an alien team which is making teamwork. It will totally destroy marineteams. The next patch will bring pheromons that will help the aliens to organize themselves.
I am happy to read that UWE will patch the Fade. Thank you very much!!!
A good Marine team,even if backed into a corner, CAN emerge victorious,even if they have fades. It's all about using GLs and FTs, as well as shotties effectively. Working together is key.
Sure, one nice fade can wipe a group of marines, but if they have at least one FT then it'll make him back off. Stay in a defensive formation (couple in front, FT in back and maybe one guy covering his rear) and it could potentially work, especially if they have a GL. If he keeps coming back every short while after taking some nice damage, throw some nades around the corner when he runs away,there's probably a gorge there. If anything it may spook the gorge or get them to move backwards a bit.
Of course, as always, it's all very situational. The fades could be bad fades or the fades could be good fades, the marine comm need to be good for the marines to win,etc,etc, but there's always a chance for victory. Don't be so quick to throw your hands up and say it's a loss. If it's truly looking grim maybe one can sneak out and,instead of attacking hives,go for harvesters and use the vents thats on the ground for cover (like in crossroads)
edit: Just noticed ScardyBob's thread in the suggestions forum, great idea.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114666" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=114666</a>
Given time the Marines tech tree will allow the marines to put the Fade in his place and the Onos will become the new OP topic.
If UWE nerf the Fade again right now, they will have to unnerf it once the next level of Tech is introduced.
120-180 kill streaks are very annoying to see and I wish that a group of marines could be more effective against a lone or group of fades, so I think the only chance is the addition of more marine tech soon.
Yes, the Fade is OP in major part because there is no Tier 3, I don't think fades will survive against a minigun. However, I think that's only part of the problem, Fades are Tier 2 tech, and should be countered effectively by Tier 2 tech, which they are not currently countered well by. Can you kill a fade? Oh absolutely, are fades and marine players of equal skill on equal ground with equal weapons? No. It's a lot easier to cut down one marine with a FT and blink away, go heal and return, than it is to take that one fade down.
The problem is multipart. First, the fade is just too good, all together, too much armor, too much damage with a res cost to match. The problem is you don't want players "buying victory." The fade should be easier to kill, do slightly less damage, and cost less than it does now (which I understand is only currently at this price because there is no Tier 3.) A fade should be more like a flame thrower, it changes the game play, it improves capabilities, but it doesn't make you a one man killing machine, a FT grunt is still attackable by aliens, even skulks I feel comfortable going after them, even against a ft/shotgun pair I feel comfortable assaulting with a skulk. As a rifle marine a fade is basically unassailable, partly because the rifle is sort of crappy, I'd much prefer that they did not nerf the skulk armor and just improved the rifle, you'd see a similar benefit (save shotguns wouldn't one hit skulks from quite so far away) against skulks but you'd gain a vastly improved effect from a team of rifle marines dumping fire into fades.
This is an FPS in the end, and so it shouldn't be running around with a MMORPG style kill system (great, extended effort expended on a kill), which the Fade currently represents, but rather the much faster paced "mess up and you die" mechanic that almost all FPS use.