Remove Arms lab, Robotics factory, and Obs prereqs
ScardyBob
ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I think it would greatly diversify early game marine build order. Right now, you are basically forced to go IP/Armory before anything else which is a)boring and b) frustrating. Probably even worse than the TRes cost is the time its adds towards getting to your desired strat.
For example, potential initial build orders that I'd like to do in lieu of an armory might be
Early armor: Arms lab -> armor1
Early defenses: Robotics factory -> MAC -> Sentries
Early mobility: Obs -> Phasetech -> PG
That first 3-5 min (before aliens get up their 2nd hive) is so crucial that being forced to waste time and TRes on an armory each time is not always desirable.
For example, potential initial build orders that I'd like to do in lieu of an armory might be
Early armor: Arms lab -> armor1
Early defenses: Robotics factory -> MAC -> Sentries
Early mobility: Obs -> Phasetech -> PG
That first 3-5 min (before aliens get up their 2nd hive) is so crucial that being forced to waste time and TRes on an armory each time is not always desirable.
Comments
I'm all about more options so long as the options are useful, unique, interesting, and balanced.
There are a bunch of cool things you could add without the interminably boring armor and melee upgrades. It's like racing someone on a treadmill, if they're competent it will always be a dead heat and will always end up with the same result. It's just adding buttons and upgrades for the sake of adding them, they don't really do very much so long as your keeping up with the Jonses, which to me strikes me as a waste of opportunity and button space.
Wait, let me get this straight you want to build something other than an IP/armory with your begining res? so you don't want your teammates to be able to respawn, or be able to heal/resupply?
Sometimes, yes. However, I'd usually build the IP anyways (though it would be nice if the map started with it or the first IP was free). The forced armory is what really bothers me. I can heal/resupply early marines with ammo/medpacks. Also, I find a lot of marines die before they run out of ammo/can get back to the armory anyways. Instead, sometimes I'd like to rush something else besides the armory with my initial TRes.
But we'd probably mostly see turrets everywhere at the start of the game. Or the commander would build an observatory and beacon early in the game.
you never stop to amaze me how well you explain your reasoning.
Every post you make on some one else's idea is just 1 to 3 words saying how it sucks, without anything else, no reason why you think it sucks or anything else that can be considered constructive, or even useful in the slightest.
Early game you need the following, always. IP, ammo, health, upgrades
Anything after that is mid-game to late game crap which you have to play by ear. There's no point in starting the early game by dropping rushing ARCs if they won't be needed.
What a lot of people don't understand is that you really need to play this game by ear, see what's happening and counter it.
Right now, the game is like this: Aliens get a quick hive, and a whip or an RT. If this happens, marines really don't need to get phase gates, you walk to the hive, and you have your commander drop med packs and ammo. and you deal with it, you don't need to waste resources on a robotics factory and arcs.
or they get a whip, melee 1, swarm 2 RTs, and if this happens, all you need to do as marines early game is get an arms lab and bump up your upgrades to armor 1. and get some shotguns.
Early game is definitely just 'hey, drop this stuff, because later in the game, you'll have ###### that'll come up that you'll have more advanced things to do, so just get these basic things out, so you can figure out what you'll be doing'
Early game you need the following, always. IP, ammo, health, upgrades
Anything after that is mid-game to late game crap which you have to play by ear. There's no point in starting the early game by dropping rushing ARCs if they won't be needed.
What a lot of people don't understand is that you really need to play this game by ear, see what's happening and counter it.
Right now, the game is like this: Aliens get a quick hive, and a whip or an RT. If this happens, marines really don't need to get phase gates, you walk to the hive, and you have your commander drop med packs and ammo. and you deal with it, you don't need to waste resources on a robotics factory and arcs.
or they get a whip, melee 1, swarm 2 RTs, and if this happens, all you need to do as marines early game is get an arms lab and bump up your upgrades to armor 1. and get some shotguns.
Early game is definitely just 'hey, drop this stuff, because later in the game, you'll have ###### that'll come up that you'll have more advanced things to do, so just get these basic things out, so you can figure out what you'll be doing'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very true, but I think it highlights my point exactly. NS2 early-game strat right now is limited, dull, and repetitive. Alien comm has about 2 (early hive or early melee1) and marines have about 4 (early armor 1, early shotguns/better weapons, early PG rush, early sentries/ARCs). Just because forgoing an armory for a PG rush is a stupid strategy in B183, doesn't mean that it has to or should be in future builds. I think eliminating some of these prereqs would add some flexiblity and diversity in future builds for unconventional strats.
Once again no. EVERY GAME is limited and dull in early game, name me ONE GAME that is not very basic at the beginning,
[EDIT]
That's a ++ for ScardyBob's suggestion.
Just awful and incorrect assertion. All RTS's have different build orders. Why shouldn't NS2?
If you want to make anything you need a hive, got it. (IP)
Want to make zerglings (shotguns) got to make a Spawning Pool(armory)
Want to make hydralisks now(GL)? Get a hydralisk den. Uh ok, upgrade for the armory.
Want to make mutalisks(FT), go ahead and get a lair and a spire!(Uh, armory, yet again)
There's different build orders because there's plain old a lot of different buildings and all the technology is put into little locks. X unlocks Y, which unlocks Z. In NS2 its X unlocks A, B, C, D, E, F, G, Y unlocks H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P.
You'd need way more viable beginning options and game paths to follow. Is it viable for marines to use LMG's the entire game, even with every upgrade? Nope. Is it viable to run with all ARC's? Nope. Is it viable to run with marine hordes in SC? Yes. Is it viable to siege tank rush in SC? Well somewhat.
You'd need way more available options to players to have radically different build orders, right now things basically go down in order of necessity.
Basically because it would exacerbate the current situation with stalemates in the midgame. If you've been making a decision to spend the resources on upgrades, then you will have an advantage, if you haven't, but have instead been trying to defend marine start with turrets, then you will be at a disadvantage. Also; anything past Armour 1 isn't really necessary, as it doesn't change how fast a skulk kills you once you've got +1.
If both were equally viable then you could have upgrades, but if not, then there's really no point. Make everyone start at upgrade level 3 and give them something more compelling to spend their Tres on.
Also, I made this a while back when trying to flesh out the Tree:
<img src="http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/4295/marinetechtreev40nocost.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Some of the upgrades were only rumored, so they may not exist anymore.
I'm all about more options so long as the options are useful, unique, interesting, and balanced.
There are a bunch of cool things you could add without the interminably boring armor and melee upgrades. It's like racing someone on a treadmill, if they're competent it will always be a dead heat and will always end up with the same result. It's just adding buttons and upgrades for the sake of adding them, they don't really do very much so long as your keeping up with the Jonses, which to me strikes me as a waste of opportunity and button space.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This idea is quite nice actually (and could act as counterweight to aliens evolvable upgrades), let marines equip grenades, trip sensors, medpacks or extra ammo.. And ofc the greater the upgrade the bigger the loadout.