Heroes of Newerth
samurai_jeff
Join Date: 2004-11-18 Member: 32853Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Join Date: 2004-11-18 Member: 32853Members, Reinforced - Supporter
<div class="IPBDescription">Dota clone</div>For those of you that have never heard of Heroes of Newerth, it's a game based of dota but with the benefit of being created on it's own engine.
This, of course, means that the gameplay is far improved over the old Warcraft 3 engine.
It's a great game and there's a sale on at the moment for $10 account creation. <i>Be aware, though, as there is a pre-selected option to buy 3000 in-game coins for an extra $20.</i>
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->Persnippity. -Scythe<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This, of course, means that the gameplay is far improved over the old Warcraft 3 engine.
It's a great game and there's a sale on at the moment for $10 account creation. <i>Be aware, though, as there is a pre-selected option to buy 3000 in-game coins for an extra $20.</i>
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->Persnippity. -Scythe<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Comments
Any mistakes will get flamed. If you can bear the insane learning curve and ass-hat community it's the best multiplayer game I've played but in all honesty I wouldn't go through the learning phase again.
Current account is Rope`
Them playas are mean :(
The dota community was always notoriously xenophobic and overtly hostile. The dota clones have inherited that trait. Barring overhaul of the basic gameplay, I doubt that will ever change.
The problem is that while their behaviour is inexcusable, there's a pretty simple explanation for it - a "feeder" can actually ruin the game. A single feeder on a team can spell ruin for them, because A) they'll have one less useful player and B) their enemies will outpace them. This makes the game all but unwinnable, and for most people defeat has to be rationalised. That means blaming the feeder. The fact that the feeder isn't entirely blameless (insofar as you can blame a new player for not being good at the game, which is highly unfair to the newbie) certainly doesn't help.
A bad teammate will drag the team down in any team-based multiplayer game, but dota clones exacerbate the problem by also making him an asset to the enemy team, doubling his impact on the game. Dota clones further worsen this problem with small team sizes - a bad (or good, for that matter) player obviously has a much bigger influence in a 4v4 game than a 12v12 game. The first dota clone to somehow fix that problem will be the first dota clone to have a fighting chance at building a non-caustic community.
I mean, calling me a feeder (now that I understand it :P) is fine and all if I keep dieing to stupid mistakes on my part, but being overwhelmed without getting support, the towers didn't seem to help me all that much either... The stupid response I got was "don't help that feeder" A label they put on me after dieing 3 times to the wolf/ranger combo...
Apparently they are incapable of accepting some blame as well as being asshat right? :P
I've had my share of trying to play that game legitimately. If you want the best games tank your MMR and do crazy things in the lower brackets. It's much more fun when you don't care about the game.
Thus my HoN smurf account. Either rolfstomp w/ a carry or do silly things, like Radiance (wait, that's the DotA name... um... forget the HoN version) on Night Hound and stand near enemies killing them as they try to figure out why they're dying. mmm permastealth.
Still, I personally find the design choices in LoL more interesting and provide a more dynamic game.
Both communities can be a little harsh, but I've typically found the LoL community slightly more forgiving and productive. Especially if you ask, I've often had better players swoop in to help.
That being said, early learning in both games can be rough. I recommend for LoL play against the bots a little to learn the heroes. You can even cooperate w/ other real players to get tips and learn the ropes. Either that or friend someone who will help teach you.
Anyway, it's a great game. Yeah, the community is pretty harsh on newer players, and there's only a very basic tutorial (which I don't think is working at the moment..) and a 'practice mode' to muck around in, but people that have experience with dota will pick it up in no time. There is a sort of 'mentoring system' and a community of people wanting to help out new players, if you're willing to dig into the furoms.
Like I said, it's a great game, probably the only game that has hooked me in to the extent NS1 did, and thought I ought to make it known that it was on sale!
The asshat-based community (I'd seen the STAFF insulting competitive players, saying that they're crap and that their clanmembers made fun of how bad they were) was definitely a deciding point in that. As was the cluttered screen, poor UI, unbalanced gameplay, slavish devotion to DotA foibles like denial...
The short version being, it wasn't <i>fun</i>. Might be worth a throw for ten bucks, but I'd rather spend that on a tasty beverage, having already tried it.
So I stand by what I said earlier: Dota gameplay probably needs a fundamental overhaul.
Edit: Talesin, LoL has denial too.
That said, a 2-vs-1 lane can actually be advantageous for certain characters that can at least hold the line on their own (using the tower area effectively), as while your opponents are splitting the XP gained, you get it all (and gold, if you're particularly skilled at last-hitting). Very good for late-ramp characters and harassers, as with certain characters it tends to be a race to level 'X', at which point they may be able to actively fight a 2-vs-1 and win, especially with the level and gear disparity.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: Talesin, LoL has denial too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LoL has zoning (keeping enemy champs away by proximity aggression and mindgames) to prevent scoring last hits on creeps (for gold and extra XP, or even proximity XP if zoned far enough away from the creep line), but NOT denial. Denial is/was the practice of scoring the last-hit on your *own* creeps to prevent last-hits by opponent champs. Technically you can practice champion denial by allowing a minion or tower to kill you to keep your opponent from getting the xp and gold for a champ kill.
The best thing to do is just ignore the caustic mob. Yes, you will run into the occasional decent player who will troll, but most players are exactly at the same level as you, it's just the new player gives them a scapegoat to rationalise their loss as not partially their own fault. You can get players equally as much blaming players for doing the right thing ("Why is Night Hound farming when they're pushing mid?" "Because that's exactly what he should be doing whilst the other four of us keep them busy, because we're playing a carry team") so you're best off reading externally, watching some replays and building up your own knowledge, then finding groups of people that you get along with to play alongside. The problem then is that if you queue as a five man, you will run into groups of 'serious' players who will stomp you in short order, and that gets demoralising very quickly.
I think it's only fair we shouldn't have any referral links on UWE, so I'll be deleting any I spot, rather than seeing this thread flooded with them, though I'll take opinions on that if everyone just wants to. That said, if anyone wants to buy an account and fancies making an e-friend happy, it's worth pointing out buying it through another persons referral link gets them some nice coins to spend on the in-game store for cosmetic stuff, so send someone with an account you know a PM. (And yes, I'm aware this could be taken as implying me, no, I'm not advocating it, use people you know first.)
--Scythe--
LoL has denial, the practice of killing your own minions to deny the enemy the gain from killing them. I don't know if there's more nuance to it than that, but the LoL tutorial <i>specifically</i> points this out - I think. I'm not 100% sure, but I have never played dota or any dota clones besides LoL, so why would I even know what denial is if it didn't exist in LoL?
And if you want my opinion, I support a hardline stance on referral links. If you allow it once you're on the slippery slope to a forum full of referral spam. I'm tired enough of "thanks for share" already.
Also, I don't think coaching alone is going to solve anything. Coaching will help people get better faster (assuming anybody even uses the system), but it won't stop other people from being ###### to newbies.
And if you want my opinion, I support a hardline stance on referral links. If you allow it once you're on the slippery slope to a forum full of referral spam. I'm tired enough of "thanks for share" already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I'm 100% certain it doesn't. I play quite regularly, and your offensive abilities don't hit friendlies. The closest you can do is allow enemy towers to kill things (creep waves, yourself) to deny. Here's a decent explanation of lane control and XP denial, as far as LoL is concerned: <a href="http://youtu.be/S0LCVsrpurI" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/S0LCVsrpurI</a>
And yes, we do have a hardline stance on referral linking, ever since the Mafia Wars-type 'surprise, you're recruited!' game days.
Why would an experienced player do this unless they already know each other or are clan mates?
In-game currency.
<!--quoteo(post=1861732:date=Jul 19 2011, 02:47 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jul 19 2011, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you know if the LoL tutorial specifically mentions denial as something it DOESN'T have, then? I mean, I have to have gotten the idea from somewhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a pretty specific mention of LoL NOT having the classic denial mechanic in the DotA vs LoL section of their website, and it's always one of the heated points of why LoL is superior/inferior.
Personally I like it since in order to deny experience via zoning you have to put yourself at risk, unlike the classic denial which let you tower hug. Combined with the more damage per shot of the LoL towers (relative to minion HP) makes being under your tower a losing proposition since it's almost impossible to last-hit properly.
There were only a couple of games in LoL where people weren't called feeders or some other swear word. The weirdest thing I saw were two people fighting for midlane while I was getting slaughtered in a 2v1 lane and the two guys in the middle kept calling me feeder. The game was MUCH better after I put them on ignore tho.
Also:
<a href="http://rlv.zcache.com/feeder_shirt-p235478755500643915yd94_400.jpg" target="_blank">http://rlv.zcache.com/feeder_shirt-p235478...915yd94_400.jpg</a>
On denial: I like Riots reasoning on why they don't have it in: "Killing your own guys is... kinda weird."
There were only a couple of games in LoL where people weren't called feeders or some other swear word. The weirdest thing I saw were two people fighting for midlane while I was getting slaughtered in a 2v1 lane and the two guys in the middle where calling me feeder. The game was MUCH better after I put them on ignore tho.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, those two are what are referred to as raging ****-**** ****tard **** **** morons. One of the down-sides to early play is that you get matched up with the people who have been banned for unsportsmanlike conduct (which is bannable along several lines, including griefing and verbal harassment! Report 'em!), and just created new accounts. Or HoN-trolls. Or just general trolls. Downside to the cost of admission being free.
Once you've played for a while and you get an actual rank (a number of wins/losses, not 'ranked match' ELO play), things calm down at least for the most part. Same with building up a friends list of competent (non-****-**** ****tard **** ****) players. Being called 'feeder' sucks, but if you have a legitimate reason (usually a bad pairing on-lane and having asked for a switch, or an enemy ganker tower diving repeatedly, or having called for support multiple times and been ignored) you can usually point this out and shut them up if you're doing the best you can.
For the most part on a 2v1, that means tower-hugging and practicing stealing last hits from the tower... an invaluable skill that can turn things around FAST, but is tricky to pull off reliably. You have to have good timing, and KNOW your damage output... some early-game and weaker champs require two autoattack hits to balance out the tower attack and get the last hit.. so let the tower hit to select the creep, autoattack hit, pause for the tower, then hit to kill. Most champs don't require that though, and can just snipe off the last little bit of health after the tower takes 2-7 shots (dependent upon creep type, of course). But learn how to do it with autoattacks! Skill/spell shots are fine, but aren't sustainable to get EVERY creep in the wave, which you need to do to really make it effective. Same, need to learn how to compensate for your own creeps' damage output and factor it in. Any ranged is great to get the timing and concept down, and aside from compensating for shot travel time as well, is easiest.
Though on the 2 fighting for mid-lane, I'd have just gone down and joined them until one left to defend the now empty and getting pushed lane, then rejoin. Most of the more egocentric ****s at least have a sense of self-preservation when a tower actually goes down.
Lolf, again... no idea where you heard about the denial mechanic, but it isn't in LoL directly.
Thats what I did at level 3 or 4. Seriously tho, those two were the biggest idiots I've encountered yet.
We had TF and Kogmaw fighting over who gets to get mid. The team said TF should do it, but Kogmaw "was there first, so why should he be the one to move to top."
And yeah, I'm level 27 or so right now and that game happened two days ago. :/
<a href="http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=13942019#post13942019" target="_blank">http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthre...19#post13942019</a>
<a href="http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=13942019#post13942019" target="_blank">http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthre...19#post13942019</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One Messer <b>xZiggy</b> shall receive a buddy request from <b>Shockwave</b> in the forseeable future then, and we can watch the rage together.
Like I said, I've probably heard it mentioned specifically as something LoL does NOT have, and then got that mixed up. I haven't played it much, because of raging ######-tards.
<a href="http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=13942019#post13942019" target="_blank">http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthre...19#post13942019</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm I'm surprised you can still do this since the neutral leash time got lowered to 5.25s.
Totally hyped for DotA 2, btw!