Marines do need a cheap upgrade, and as marines can't run away as well as lerks, the upgrade needs to be a bit cheaper than a lerk, as marines will have to buy it more often.
So, what about making the shotgun significantly less powerful, a comparatively minor upgrade to the rifle in terms of DPS, but still much easier to use and with a bit of knockback or stun if you hit something full in the face with it, making it better against skulks and other fast aliens than the rifle, making it an especially useful upgrade early on.
Then, in order to make it good against fades and such, you can add extra upgrades, so you can buy armor piercing or explosive ammo for both the shotgun and the rifle which buffs them against heavier lifeforms while also increasing the cost of your loadout to balance, that makes them useful into the late game and doesn't leave you with a pair of crappy guns you only use at the start.
The rifle and shotgun should compliment each other, shotguns are closer range but easier to use at close range, and with a useful secondary effect, rifles do good DPS over any range (and can be equipped with a GL) and are good because you get them for free.
Basically as flamethrowers compliment shotguns, shotguns should compliment rifles.
Aliens scale their effectivenss with armor and damage upgrades, as well as evolvable upgrades to make the 25 res start-of-game lerk into a 30+ res end-of-game lerk, not to mention all their classes have unique abilities you can't get any other way, lerks are the only ranged class and the only class that flies and the only class that has spores, shotguns on the other hand are currently the easiest, best damage, most generally effective gun in the marine arsenal. If you cut their damage and make them a bit less of a melee weapon with a tighter spread, so rather than waiting for something to get in your face them one shotting it, you instead shoot it a few times as it gets closer, you should end up with things like the rifle having potentially better DPS and the GL in particular being a very competitive upgrade to the shotgun.
<!--quoteo(post=1861536:date=Jul 19 2011, 02:48 AM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Jul 19 2011, 02:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm under the impression the shotgun currently does Heavy damage. Changing that will allow the more heavily armored lifeforms to go up against shotguns with a better expected outcome, and yet keep them effective against the lighter/cheaper life forms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The shotgun currently deals Normal damage.
<!--quoteo(post=1861587:date=Jul 19 2011, 09:18 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jul 19 2011, 09:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I take it nobody agrees with my conclusion that the problem will go away on its own once better and more expensive toys are in?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It might, but if we can find some non-invasive hotfix (that can be switched back easily) until then I don't see why we shouldn't.
<!--quoteo(post=1861613:date=Jul 19 2011, 10:59 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 19 2011, 10:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, what about making the shotgun significantly less powerful, a comparatively minor upgrade to the rifle in terms of DPS, but still much easier to use and with a bit of knockback or stun if you hit something full in the face with it, making it better against skulks and other fast aliens than the rifle, making it an especially useful upgrade early on.
Then, in order to make it good against fades and such, you can add extra upgrades, so you can buy armor piercing or explosive ammo for both the shotgun and the rifle which buffs them against heavier lifeforms while also increasing the cost of your loadout to balance, that makes them useful into the late game and doesn't leave you with a pair of crappy guns you only use at the start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm wary of the game turning into a Weapons Mod, but I think a Concussive Rounds upgrade for the AR would not only provide a mid-range solution between the vanilla AR and the Shotgun but also give the now-infamous <i>slow on hit</i> a more respected position.
Would keep the AR relevant even as Shotguns become available, complementing the slow-moving but hard-hitting Shotgun by slowing targets.
Out of all these ideas the only one I like the most is making the shotgun crap against structures. Maybe investigating making it utter crap against any range except short.
I think the problem lies with the shotgun being incredibly all purpose. (someone else pointed this out too) I followed someone around with a shotgun once while carrying a rifle...just for fun...well actually i was saving for a flamer cause the fades were coming.
I would wing things from a distance, but the shotgun guy just walked up to everything and cleared it, very simply very quickly. structures, creatures
It is truly the best all purpose weapon out there.
What about giving it 4 stages of damage instead of 3? Like I had been reading that currently the shotgun deals damage at short and medium range and then has no effect on anything passed the target identification range (where you can see text of the object in your reticule). Could this just be changed to Most damage (reduced from current) to a mid-damage and then a min damage followed by the 0 damage area?
This would make them less effective at close range (still effective though), unless the arms lab increases their power, and still effective at mid and decently far range if the marines are backing eachother up. This way skulks actually have a chance in the early game, and marines can still attempt to ward them off from a distance forcing them to heal up or fight with low health. Plus then the arms lab weapons upgrades would actually do something to help the shotgun, unlike now where there's actually no point in them because armor upgrades give the marines more stamina to just survive long enough to buy another shotgun or pick up their old one and run back to the armory anyways.
Or perhaps increase skulk health (or armor) because they do have more girth than the NS1 skulk..
I'm not a big fan of res for kills... I'd rather see overall costs for kit and lifeforms dropped a bit and make players focus more on retaining their RTs if they want to have enough res to actually use those things.
I was thinking maybe a certain % of marines P.Res income could be taxed and go to the commander to use for meds and ammo, and it'd probably be a good idea to put meds cost back upto 2 if you did this to prevent marines bathing in meds any time an alien came near. This would help to slow down the rate at which marines could replenish shotguns (and get them in the first place) whilst still rewarding those playing well, similar in a way to raising the cost of the Shotgun but I feel this way round would be kinder to new/less able players. Plus this would also translate well when proto tech is introduced without having to just bump up the cost of everything.
As to the strength of the SG, I think you should wait till the changes to skulk movement come in before judging on that. The SG's main weakness is its RoF so if its easier to dodge as skulk it might help to balance things out a little.
<!--quoteo(post=1861670:date=Jul 19 2011, 01:57 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Jul 19 2011, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861670"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about giving it 4 stages of damage instead of 3? Like I had been reading that currently the shotgun deals damage at short and medium range and then has no effect on anything passed the target identification range (where you can see text of the object in your reticule). Could this just be changed to Most damage (reduced from current) to a mid-damage and then a min damage followed by the 0 damage area?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This isn't how it works. There is a MaxRange and a MinRange, and the damage scales between the Max and the Min according to the distance. If the target is beyond the MaxRange it obviously deal no damage because it doesn't hit. The shotgun fires 10 pellets, all of which can deal 1 - 20 damage if they hit (according to their distance), and 0 if they miss, so effective 0 - 20 damage.
Comments
So, what about making the shotgun significantly less powerful, a comparatively minor upgrade to the rifle in terms of DPS, but still much easier to use and with a bit of knockback or stun if you hit something full in the face with it, making it better against skulks and other fast aliens than the rifle, making it an especially useful upgrade early on.
Then, in order to make it good against fades and such, you can add extra upgrades, so you can buy armor piercing or explosive ammo for both the shotgun and the rifle which buffs them against heavier lifeforms while also increasing the cost of your loadout to balance, that makes them useful into the late game and doesn't leave you with a pair of crappy guns you only use at the start.
The rifle and shotgun should compliment each other, shotguns are closer range but easier to use at close range, and with a useful secondary effect, rifles do good DPS over any range (and can be equipped with a GL) and are good because you get them for free.
Basically as flamethrowers compliment shotguns, shotguns should compliment rifles.
Aliens scale their effectivenss with armor and damage upgrades, as well as evolvable upgrades to make the 25 res start-of-game lerk into a 30+ res end-of-game lerk, not to mention all their classes have unique abilities you can't get any other way, lerks are the only ranged class and the only class that flies and the only class that has spores, shotguns on the other hand are currently the easiest, best damage, most generally effective gun in the marine arsenal. If you cut their damage and make them a bit less of a melee weapon with a tighter spread, so rather than waiting for something to get in your face them one shotting it, you instead shoot it a few times as it gets closer, you should end up with things like the rifle having potentially better DPS and the GL in particular being a very competitive upgrade to the shotgun.
The shotgun currently deals Normal damage.
<!--quoteo(post=1861587:date=Jul 19 2011, 09:18 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jul 19 2011, 09:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I take it nobody agrees with my conclusion that the problem will go away on its own once better and more expensive toys are in?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It might, but if we can find some non-invasive hotfix (that can be switched back easily) until then I don't see why we shouldn't.
<!--quoteo(post=1861613:date=Jul 19 2011, 10:59 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 19 2011, 10:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, what about making the shotgun significantly less powerful, a comparatively minor upgrade to the rifle in terms of DPS, but still much easier to use and with a bit of knockback or stun if you hit something full in the face with it, making it better against skulks and other fast aliens than the rifle, making it an especially useful upgrade early on.
Then, in order to make it good against fades and such, you can add extra upgrades, so you can buy armor piercing or explosive ammo for both the shotgun and the rifle which buffs them against heavier lifeforms while also increasing the cost of your loadout to balance, that makes them useful into the late game and doesn't leave you with a pair of crappy guns you only use at the start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm wary of the game turning into a Weapons Mod, but I think a Concussive Rounds upgrade for the AR would not only provide a mid-range solution between the vanilla AR and the Shotgun but also give the now-infamous <i>slow on hit</i> a more respected position.
Would keep the AR relevant even as Shotguns become available, complementing the slow-moving but hard-hitting Shotgun by slowing targets.
Maybe investigating making it utter crap against any range except short.
I think the problem lies with the shotgun being incredibly all purpose.
(someone else pointed this out too)
I followed someone around with a shotgun once while carrying a rifle...just for fun...well actually i was saving for a flamer cause the fades were coming.
I would wing things from a distance, but the shotgun guy just walked up to everything and cleared it, very simply very quickly.
structures, creatures
It is truly the best all purpose weapon out there.
This would make them less effective at close range (still effective though), unless the arms lab increases their power, and still effective at mid and decently far range if the marines are backing eachother up. This way skulks actually have a chance in the early game, and marines can still attempt to ward them off from a distance forcing them to heal up or fight with low health. Plus then the arms lab weapons upgrades would actually do something to help the shotgun, unlike now where there's actually no point in them because armor upgrades give the marines more stamina to just survive long enough to buy another shotgun or pick up their old one and run back to the armory anyways.
Or perhaps increase skulk health (or armor) because they do have more girth than the NS1 skulk..
+1 for small damage reduction though
As to the strength of the SG, I think you should wait till the changes to skulk movement come in before judging on that. The SG's main weakness is its RoF so if its easier to dodge as skulk it might help to balance things out a little.
This isn't how it works. There is a MaxRange and a MinRange, and the damage scales between the Max and the Min according to the distance. If the target is beyond the MaxRange it obviously deal no damage because it doesn't hit. The shotgun fires 10 pellets, all of which can deal 1 - 20 damage if they hit (according to their distance), and 0 if they miss, so effective 0 - 20 damage.