Shotgun, shotgun, shotgun...
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Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">What are we going to do with you.</div>Currently we have the "permashotgun" problem where marines will get a shotgun and earn enough pres while they're alive to get another after they respawn. As such, the shotgun can't be allowed to be too strong if the aliens are to have a chance.
Still, it IS something you pay for, so logically it should be better than the standard LMG rather than a sidegrade; often enough it's suggested to simply raise the cost. I was thinking though, this problem might not be because it's too cheap, but rather because there's nothing better to spend pres on.
GL and FT are specialized, and not very good outside their specific roles, while the shotgun is at least decent at everything (except long range combat against occasional lerks and gorges, but then you have the pistol...). So it's not surprising that it's the most widely used weapon, since the other all-around option is the LMG, which is <i>at best</i> decent at anything.
But once we have exos and miniguns etc, might this problem solve itself when players want to save for something better and more expensive? In the meantime I suspect the GL and FT need some love.
Still, it IS something you pay for, so logically it should be better than the standard LMG rather than a sidegrade; often enough it's suggested to simply raise the cost. I was thinking though, this problem might not be because it's too cheap, but rather because there's nothing better to spend pres on.
GL and FT are specialized, and not very good outside their specific roles, while the shotgun is at least decent at everything (except long range combat against occasional lerks and gorges, but then you have the pistol...). So it's not surprising that it's the most widely used weapon, since the other all-around option is the LMG, which is <i>at best</i> decent at anything.
But once we have exos and miniguns etc, might this problem solve itself when players want to save for something better and more expensive? In the meantime I suspect the GL and FT need some love.
Comments
The issue isn't the cost or the damage or the range, its the fact that its good at both killing players (1 shot skulks, 2-3 shot fades) and killing structures (3 shot cysts, 1 shot eggs). Its an all-purpose killing weapon which gets way better with numbers. Personally, I like that it does mega damage vs players and think it should be balanced by reducing damage against structures. Lets make the axe the best anti-structure weapon early game and the grenade launcher the best anti-structure weapon late game.
Yes you can. There are a myriad other values you can tweak.
<!--quoteo(post=1861477:date=Jul 18 2011, 07:00 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 18 2011, 07:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reduce shotgun damage against structures, problem solved.
The issue isn't the cost or the damage or the range, its the fact that its good at both killing players (1 shot skulks, 2-3 shot fades) and killing structures (3 shot cysts, 1 shot eggs). Its an all-purpose killing weapon which gets way better with numbers. Personally, I like that it does mega damage vs players and think it should be balanced by reducing damage against structures. Lets make the axe the best anti-structure weapon early game and the grenade launcher the best anti-structure weapon late game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm starting to feel like a broken record, but giving Shotguns the Heavy damage type they were initially designed with (wherein the Heavy damage type did EXTRA damage to Armor) would effectively reduce the shotguns damage against structures. There are only 2 Alien structures with Armor (Crag and the Harvester), so you'll see the weapon dealing more damage against those Structures and the heavily armored late-game units.
Such as?
Literally everything else? Alien health, armor, damage type for particular weapons, etc.. The game's in development, almost nothing has to be off the table as far as changing things go.
Nerfing alien health? It takes 10 bullets to kill a skulk, nerfing it any further is even further promoting COD "whoever sees the other first wins" gameplay. You can't just tweak some values to make it balanced/fun.
Reason being:
20 for SG would help low armored skulks in the early-mid game. If it reduces the amount of marines armed with a SG in the early stages before fades I think will give a little bit better balance.
25 for GL is simply to marginally reduce the amount of marines able to afford the GL for those turtling stalemates.
30 for FT is fine as it is as I find it's only really needed in the end game when you need to kill hives and impede Fades.
15 for sentrys (up from 10) for obvious reasons.
<b>I should be more polite.</b>
Try not to focus so much on what is and try to see what could be. 10 bullets (I assume you mean Assault Rifle) kill a skulk, but that's also taking into account the weapons attack speed (delay), damage type, clip capacity, and lack of recoil as well as the Skulks values such as movement speed, acceleration, all of which can be changed, tweaked, or altogether removed. This game is comprised of thousands of lines of code (excluding the game engine), and one of them are off limits.
Regardless, you stated that you CANNOT remove "permashotguns" without removing Hive 1 Leap, and that is an absolutely false statement.
Also, how do you infer that the poster was suggesting a NERF to alien health, considering the topic of conversation is Shotguns being OP? It's clear that he wasn't making a specific suggestion, but even if he was I think the more likely suggestion would be buffing alien health than nerfing it.
we need the commander somehow supply the marines so they depend on him for weapons, right now the reason every marine has shotgun is because they can all just go buy it. And that's what makes them so overpowered, every marine can easily get it. In ns1 getting weapons was a reward from the commander, now every trigger happy kid can have it.
what would happen if marines didn't have personal res, and couldn't buy weapons themselves, you think every marine would have a shotgun? will the shotgun be powerful, of course but at least we would limit how often would see marine with shotgun. right now marines rank up personal res and every time they die, they can keep buying it, that's the problem.
so, some ideas needed..
1.think about changing how the armory works
2.increase shotgun cost
3.reduce shotgun damage either against aliens or buildings
4.adding personal res cap
5.adding timer on how often weapons can be bought based on your last time you bought something
all the ideas here are good but the problem lies in how weapons are giving out in my opinion. If the armory worked much more similar to ns1 style having powerful weapons wouldn't matter because not everyone will have it or as often, the commander will go broke pretty quickly.
Try not to focus so much on what is and try to see what could be. 10 bullets (I assume you mean Assault Rifle) kill a skulk, but that's also taking into account the weapons attack speed (delay), damage type, clip capacity, and lack of recoil as well as the Skulks values such as movement speed, acceleration, all of which can be changed, tweaked, or altogether removed. This game is comprised of thousands of lines of code (excluding the game engine), and one of them are off limits.
Regardless, you stated that you CANNOT remove "permashotguns" without removing Hive 1 Leap, and that is an absolutely false statement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me fix that: You cannot remove permashotguns without removing hive 1 leap without severely unbalancing the game and/or making it quite a bit less fun. Yes, different people have fun in different ways but as someone who has had it both ways LMG vs no leap is way better than shotgun vs leap.
You still haven't suggested something that would make LMG be balanced (and hopefully fun) against a skulk.
Edit: Think of it like NS1 (yes, the two games can be compared because the combat/gameplay is so damn similar right now). If you gave skulks hive1 leap, marines would get slaughtered pretty badly every game. Same concept applies here: Unless some significant changes are made to the LMG/skulk then it's going to cause problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1861493:date=Jul 18 2011, 08:16 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jul 18 2011, 08:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861493"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, how do you infer that the poster was suggesting a NERF to alien health, considering the topic of conversation is Shotguns being OP? It's clear that he wasn't making a specific suggestion, but even if he was I think the more likely suggestion would be buffing alien health than nerfing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't replying to the OP with that, but the guy I quoted. I just can't think of a way you can just tweak values (as he suggested) and make it balanced/fun.
Players have the chance to earn a Shotgun every 5 - 15 kills, ignoring the P.Res flow from Extractors.
Considering how easily players get res from RFK now, why not reduce starting P.Res?
I vote on 0.
I vote on 0.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as long as aliens dont start with <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><u>30</u><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> like they do now im happy... sheesh.its fade in something like 5 minutes if the game is already in progress...
Maybe switch the shotgun's base damage type to Standard or Light? It'd still do a number on skulks through raw damage alone, but fades would have a much better chance against it, making it necessary to have a squad together in order to work over a fade...
the shotgun needs a tweak so it excel at shooting skulks/lerks at close range (like it already does) and are less desirable vs fades (still ok) and bad vs structures.
GL is great vs structures, just needs better / more predictable bounces.
FT needs to loose the wall hack, and get a ammo counter. I find it good otherwise, maybe a shorter dot.
minigun will take the role of fade / onos killer deluxe.
I vote on 0.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea. I was playing a game yesterday in which I got disconnect. When I rejoined I had 0 res and I couldn't afford a shotgun for a little while longer. There's nothing you can spend your res on at the start of the game anyway.
I don't think the shotgun needs to be nerfed right now. Perhaps put the cost up to 20 but that's it.
Each weapon sold at the armory costs +2 more with each purchase. A cooldown timer let's the price drop gradually.
This would mean that when all marines get a shotgun, the prices would be off the charts when they respawn. So they have the choice: spend ALOT of res or just go with the lmg.
I think this would balance nicely if we also remove the "drop on death".
Each weapon sold at the armory costs +2 more with each purchase. A cooldown timer let's the price drop gradually.
This would mean that when all marines get a shotgun, the prices would be off the charts when they respawn. So they have the choice: spend ALOT of res or just go with the lmg.
I think this would balance nicely if we also remove the "drop on death".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds a bit extreme. and not compatible with the "it's up to the player what weapon to get" model.
there will always be that one guy who never gets what he wants because he is unlucky/slow with buying.
would not understand why the price is varying, and its also frustrating. you die once very fast after
you bought your weapon, then you have 2 penalties: you lost your weapon AND the next one is more expensive
RFK is already enough to regulate skill differences (and reward)
Hardly, it just escaletes the res amount you have ending up in waste res.
depends really. too many variables to say for sure now, but it's safe to assume that jetpacks and heavy armor will variably increase a marine's lifespan along with getting in more kills than otherwise, making shotguns affordable after finally dieing.
It probably will to a degree, but something extra is still required, like the old res cost.
all weapons should have strengths and weaknesses, the shotgun is too good at too much atm,
implementing even better things (exo/minigun) won't make it worse.
I think it's 8-9 bullets from rifle at the start of the game.
3 bullets from pistol sniper mode until aliens get crag, and they always go whip first to get the two-hit kills on marines.
Increase resource cost to 20.
Make heavy damage do half damage against structures. (Replace fade swipe 2 with acid launcher, pistol sniping structures will stop)
Bring back explode on surface grenades. With a smaller explosion radius but strong impact damage. And shooting at your feet will kill you.
Widen the firing cone of the machine gun and increase the upgrade damage values.
Increase flamethrower burn damage, but only targets with no armor can be set on fire. (great against low level lifeforms and pustules, higher level lifeforms won't run out of energy as quick.)
And perhaps make the slow on hit only for the concussion rifle.