Does anyone NOT think the slow on hit sucks? I think it sucks. Does anyone NOT think slow on hit sucks? I don't think it sucks. (mostly - it's a form of limited slippery slope)
What's the difference? The difference is what twiliteblue was trying to express. "Yes, the current slow on hit sucks, but with some tweaking it could work."
<!--quoteo(post=1859984:date=Jul 12 2011, 03:36 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jul 12 2011, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you should ask people two questions:
Does anyone NOT think the slow on hit sucks? I think it sucks. Does anyone NOT think slow on hit sucks? I don't think it sucks. (mostly - it's a form of limited slippery slope)
What's the difference? The difference is what twiliteblue was trying to express. "Yes, the current slow on hit sucks, but with some tweaking it could work."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do we even want it to work though? This is less of a statement on balance and more on the fun factor. Losing control of your character's movement is frustrating and a rather weak mechanic. NS1 limited your jumping by slowing you down after your second jump. However, if you jumped on a higher surface it would reset the current jump count to 0, allowing for some pretty interesting ways of getting around the map.
Well, in fighting games, there's hit-stun, but it's pretty widely accepted as the standard way of doing things, and no one considers it unfun. Slow-on-hit isn't even on the level of hit-stun, and it's not really a new concept either - it's been around in CS for years.
Having said all that, I would be perfectly happy if they removed slow-on-hit instead of trying to get it to work. Or at least have it only apply to melee attacks.
Personally I think the slowdown on hit is too much. I like the idea, but currently it affects skulks and lerk far too much, almost stopping them in their tracks or mid-air. Fade is fine, as he can blink-out wherever. I think if it was about 40% of what it is, it would work better.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
I like the idea, but the implementation needs tweaking.
Right now, all players are affected the same; if you take 40% of your hits (health + armor*2) in damage, your max speed is halved (except when hit by fire or gas).
This is kinda awful for the lerk, who can't take much damage and needs to fly away fast.
The gorge, usually reliant upon his bellyslide to run away, is now dead.
Blinking/leaping also have their max-speed halved.
Two ways of tweaking it: - Leave special movement abilities untouched, only decrease BASE max speed (blink, leap, belly slide affected) - Let some aliens override how much they are affected (lerks)
Note that a skulk leaping in would be unaffected by the slowdown while the leap lasted, but would be slowed when moving after landing.
I would on top of Matso's suggestions, not allow sentries guns and Hydras to slow targets... bit unfair a AI controlled weapon can cause slowdown on each hit.
<!--quoteo(post=1859988:date=Jul 12 2011, 11:59 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jul 12 2011, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, in fighting games, there's hit-stun, but it's pretty widely accepted as the standard way of doing things, and no one considers it unfun. Slow-on-hit isn't even on the level of hit-stun, and it's not really a new concept either - it's been around in CS for years.
Having said all that, I would be perfectly happy if they removed slow-on-hit instead of trying to get it to work. Or at least have it only apply to melee attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this isn't a fighting game and this isn't CS either, which is a slow paced game where melee combat isn't an important part, and slow on hit is terribly unfun as it works as a restriction against players instead of allowing players to freely maximize games movement mechanics for their advantage during combat. These kind of penalizing design decisions simplify the game but they take away lot of the variables in combat, making the game a monotonous execution task rather than something to enjoy playing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like this slow on hit idea. But I think only the marines should suffer from it. Aliens need freedom of movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And while were at it, we could give the this thingy with a button that can insta-pop a marines head at a distance. And a wallhack. ;>
I noticed that aliens have a lot of advocates that would like to see them as buffed as it is possible while constantly complaining about marines being able to shoot or walk around. No love for the marines :(
Oh and that's not something personal, Necro - just a general statement.
As a marine, I absolutely love it. If the skulk manages to bite me, then I deserved to get bitten. Fade is another story since they suddenly pop up in your face. As an alien, especially skulk I have mixed feelings. I like that it encourages me to be supersneaky, but when I inevitably get caught in the middle of a hallway by a marine crossing the corner on the other side, and he manages to hit me with one bullet, that usually means it's over for me. I haven't played much around with the Fade in 180, so not sure how much it affects them, but they have their blink, and from what I have seen in other comments it's not much of a problem. As for the Lerk, I'm still learning the new flight controls. Getting used to not being able to make swift turns to outmaneuver a sudden clump of marines is harder than it sounds, since most of the time I flip 180 and crash down in the middle of them. This could be because of the bullet slow, but most likely because of the new movement style. Because of this I'll leave this one open until I get more experienced with the Lerk flight.
All in all I don't really mind the slow as a whole, but it's not correctly implemented in 180 IMO. What I'd like to see is that it only worked for melee. This way the marine rifle bash would get more meaning, instead of just being the "oh crap, empty clip, gotta reload. TOO LONG TIME AAAARGH!" panic button. Would have to give it it's own button though, since it clashes with the GL. Alternately make the grenade explosion slow creatures in the blast as well.
If something like the above is completely off limits and if it is to be kept similar to the way it is now, the ranged slow from bullets would have to be drastically reduced. Possibly to the point where anything over 20m(think this was the shotgun bullet dropoff) didn't get slowed at all and the closer you get to the shooter, the more slowed you get, up to 0m(point blank) where you have the same slow as 180 currently has.
As marine it's nice because it just feels better, it isn't strictly neccesary I suppose but it certainly feels better for a lot of the guns, haven't had chance to really play with it as alien but I did note as marine the aliens seem to have a much better time hitting marine players, certainly makes them a lot more deadly close in, which is a much needed change. It also didn't seem to be seriously hampering lerks or fades, fades still murder marines and lerks are actually hittable when moving now which is a great change. Still tricky, but far more balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1860042:date=Jul 12 2011, 02:13 PM:name=IronHalik)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IronHalik @ Jul 12 2011, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And while were at it, we could give the this thingy with a button that can insta-pop a marines head at a distance. And a wallhack. ;>
I noticed that aliens have a lot of advocates that would like to see them as buffed as it is possible while constantly complaining about marines being able to shoot or walk around. No love for the marines :(
Oh and that's not something personal, Necro - just a general statement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, maybe you got me wrong. I like the idea of asymmetric game play like NS and NS2 got them. So I think it is nice to have one team with strong focus on movement and fast reactions and the other team focused on teamplay and aiming. So if I got bored with one play style, I switch the team and have a completely other experience. That is why I think the aliens should not suffer from this, but the marines.
Yeah, my comment regarded more technical issue. The slowdown works for both sides and changes how difficult it is to kill an opponent quite drastically. If only aliens had the ability to slow down enemies it would be majorly OP. And not as OP as is currently used 'yo shotguns counter my fade and its OP coz i cant own everything easily now and its not fair i dont have the top spot on scoreboard now and the game is too difficult buuu'. IMHO, the slowdown is an equivalent to buffing the dealt damage. You don't want to give aliens double damage, don't you? :>
It's actually different from damage dealt, it's interesting because it doesn't take into account alien health quite as much, the rifle does poor DPS against advanced lifeforms, but because it's an automatic long ranged weapon, it does slow them down a lot. This is an excellent balancing factor in the late game, helps to keep rifle weapons useful.
I feel like the slow-on-hit would be okay if it only happened from melee attacks.
Currently a) Skulks are super easy to kill as a marine. Escaping as them is difficult as well. b) Lerks stop dead on their air-tracks because of the slowdowns. Getting hit by a turret is really frustrating. c) Fades can be kited pretty effortlessly with a shotgun if they just come swinging at you. Three shots is enough for a kill. Unless there's a BS blink where your hit turns into a miss magically.
What I loved about NS1 was the skill-based movement. What I loved about any FPS game was the high tempo. I can't stand the newer ones because they're making them slow and <b>so real</b>.
I grew up playing Quakes. （︶︿︶） NS2 is the last hope for a good FPS game, and I'm pretty much against the slowdowns because of it. Hopefully there will be some speed-ups along the way instead.
hate slow downs in fps games. It's just a way to lower the skill cealing, since as long as you have a good aim, you won't care much at all if your target keeps moving or is slowed by your shots, it might even be more satisfactory to pull of a nice kill in somebody with skilled movement than if after you landed your first hit the rest is simpler. Completely agree with <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114156&view=findpost&p=1860060" target="_blank">skie</a>, I have a background of competing in fast fps games and wouldn't like NS2 to be just another slow pseudo-real game.
<!--quoteo(post=1860060:date=Jul 12 2011, 05:24 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Jul 12 2011, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel like the slow-on-hit would be okay if it only happened from melee attacks.
Currently a) Skulks are super easy to kill as a marine. Escaping as them is difficult as well. b) Lerks stop dead on their air-tracks because of the slowdowns. Getting hit by a turret is really frustrating. c) Fades can be kited pretty effortlessly with a shotgun if they just come swinging at you. Three shots is enough for a kill. Unless there's a BS blink where your hit turns into a miss magically.
What I loved about NS1 was the skill-based movement. What I loved about any FPS game was the high tempo. I can't stand the newer ones because they're making them slow and <b>so real</b>.
I grew up playing Quakes. （︶︿︶） NS2 is the last hope for a good FPS game, and I'm pretty much against the slowdowns because of it. Hopefully there will be some speed-ups along the way instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could get behind this, but marine melee already has a knockback which has a nice synergy with their ranged weaponry so can't see that requiring slowdown aswell. As for aliens, even in 179 hitting marines wasn't difficult but with a slowdown on their bite, that would make marines sitting ducks after the initial strike essentially rendering rines into a standing buffet.
I guess in the end the real question here is that design wise which does the dev team see more feasible, fast paced old-school style combat which NO other modern FPS game offers (which one could imagine would be just right the alley of people who choose to invest money in an indie company PC-exclusive product) or go for the movement restrictive slow paced combat offered by majority of modern style FPS and attempt to push your product to compete for the CoD/BF audience.
I'm totally against the change. They have this in L4D2 and it's really frustrating as infected to be slowed down. Sure it adds some tactical debt to survivals play: for example there should be always one survival shooting the tank that you can juke tank more easily. In NS2 there isn't similar tactical situations so the frustration is the only thing left. You shouldn't enforce ambushing by artificial crippling effect, ambushing itself should be rewarding. There is something wrong in game in first place if you have to force people to play in certain way.
<!--quoteo(post=1860082:date=Jul 12 2011, 06:28 PM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Jul 12 2011, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860082"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm totally against the change. They have this in L4D2 and it's really frustrating as infected to be slowed down. Sure it adds some tactical debt to survivals play: for example there should be always one survival shooting the tank that you can juke tank more easily. In NS2 there isn't similar tactical situations so the frustration is the only thing left. You shouldn't enforce ambushing by artificial crippling effect, ambushing itself should be rewarding. There is something wrong in game in first place if you have to force people to play in certain way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is actually a very good analogy and something devs should take a look into as L4D is a perfect example how slowdown cripples the flow of a competitive fps game. In said game all the special infected besides tank are designed to be glass cannons in order to balance out with the sporadic survivor respawn system which requires for at least one survivor to be alive at all times. This in turn makes the infected gameplay indeed very ambush like and tedious, and frankly similar to the 180 alien gameplay. And while it is a more complex issue than just that, L4D2 versus servers are empty as hell. You're lucky just to find a single versus match on during parts of the day even after the steam summer camp sale.
Though I have to point out that I don't agree with the slowdown adding to depth, but rather the opposite as in the hypothesis of a tank being slowed down by shots would be such an effective strategy that you wouldn't even consider any sort of alternative style of combat movement.
While balancing a game with non optimized code and missing content is rather ineffective and problematic, if you're going to do it you have to do it by comparing individual parts against each other and not by looking at the end game results since they are completely irrelevant. So that in mind we can completely ditch the win percentages and check the actual balance between individual mechanics, and I have to ask that is it really good design decision to limit aliens only into L4D-esque ambush gameplay?
P.S. fps issues and warping affect marine aim considerably more than alien bite
I would argue that your opinion may be more valid if u didn't play NS1.
Otherwise u get people who are just upset cos it's not what they are used to, have to relearn, don't like change from what they are used to, want an NS1 clone, etc. This is a new game after all.
Personally I'm undecided, I'm not finding skulk harder to play with it but the jury is still out.
<!--quoteo(post=1860110:date=Jul 12 2011, 08:13 PM:name=Abalith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Abalith @ Jul 12 2011, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would argue that your opinion may be more valid if u didn't play NS1.
Otherwise u get people who are just upset cos it's not what they are used to, have to relearn, don't like change from what they are used to, want an NS1 clone, etc. This is a new game after all.
Personally I'm undecided, I'm not finding skulk harder to play with it but the jury is still out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The implication that people are unable to view the issue with anything else except through the narrow scope of hating change is rather simplistic and frankly absurd. I have to ask, if you're not finding it harder to play skulk how good were you kdr wise with skulk play? As currently simply from the perspective from game mechanics skulk combat movement is severely crippled and if you're saying that you're not finding it harder to play then you either have found a way which allows for as good results as the previous patch or that you never fully utilized skulk movement in a head on fight.
Just as a guess, are you playing more ambush style of gameplay? And if so in your opinion would it be a good or a bad thing to have gaming mechanics that allow for both ambush style and head on, or ones that penalize head on gameplay forcing you into ambush only?
Honestly, I've been playing it a bunch and it seems like it should only be slow on melee hits. Regardless, how to address jump spam is going to be related to the type of game play they want the aliens to have, do they want Skulks to ambush people like xenomorphs from Aliens, or do they want them to running screaming into enemies in packs, like Tyranids or Zerg, both are fun and viable ways of play, but they need different fixes to maintain atmosphere.
I personally think people are being a little bit spoiled when they bring up their objections as "Sometimes i'm killed and I can't really do anything about it." Well that happens some times, sometimes you will just get owned because of circumstances and you won't have any chance, you aren't entitled to always having one. I also find it increasingly odd how people are harping on "how frustrating it is to have your movement restricted." Why would you be entitled to always moving at your greatest ability at all times no matter the circumstances? For the L4D comparison, they slowed special infected because they wanted to encourage ambush style game play rather than just running at your opponent arms flailing, that is the game play they were after, its not the games fault if you don't like that gameplay.
Now, I'm not saying you don't have the right to complain or that you shouldn't be heard, because you should be heard, your opinion matters too, but in the end, the designers can't please everyone and they're going to pick a style of play and you'll have a choice, adapt or quit.
Personally, as much as I think jumping and spazzing out looks stupid, I wasn't about to quit NS2 for it anymore than NS1, but I have preferences, as does everyone. If you look at the scratchpad for change ideas it seems the devs are really leaning toward <b>ambush style play skulks and fades</b> with ideas like "Aliens can hide inside DI and emerge when a marine passes to attack." On the flip side, they aren't quite sure what role lerks fulfill and the current build is to try out a more in your face aggressive variety.
Whatever it ends up with will be cool, I just care that it doesn't ruin the atmosphere by its look, and by look I just mean look. If jump spam looks right, I don't care if its in play, if slow on hit looks artificial and atmosphere breaking, I don't want it in play either.
Right now NS2 is filling a niche, an immersive FPS game with tactical RPG elements and a variety of styles based on kit/evolution, the closest game to it being AvP. It is not quake, it is not UT, it is not COD:MW, I don't think we need to make it into any of those for it to be good.
I like it but it does need some tweeks. I would think a gradual slow down would work better. 1st hit, 5% slow, 2nd 10% or something like that. It seems now that once you are hit as a skulk you drop to 50% and in a leap this means you are toast. Also lerk gets owned very quickly with the current slow down and limited gas range. Lerk is completly broken right now.
Turret or Hydra/Whip slow down should be cut in half compared to actual player fired weapons. Right now Turrets are dominating game play and can completely shut down alien movement.
I played NS1 since 1.4 and played in CAL matches. I have been playing NS2 off and on but no where near as much as I will in the future once it is polished up.
On another note they need to make the marines jumping based on energy as well so a marine trying to jump after beign bitten will be very little for the next few seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=1860114:date=Jul 12 2011, 08:53 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 12 2011, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, I've been playing it a bunch and it seems like it should only be slow on melee hits. Regardless, how to address jump spam is going to be related to the type of game play they want the aliens to have, do they want Skulks to ambush people like xenomorphs from Aliens, or do they want them to running screaming into enemies in packs, like Tyranids or Zerg, both are fun and viable ways of play, but they need different fixes to maintain atmosphere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But why should it be one or the other, when without the slowdown mechanic both gameplay options become viable. Now sure without the slowdown the ambush isn't the only option so it won't "feel" as core part of the combat as with the slowdown implemented, but it still gives an easy first strike and an angle of attack which favors the alien making it a perfectly viable tactic.
Because choice of tactics is really the end result of ease of kills and effort. Ambushes require you to set up and wait, pick a good spot and someone will pass by, maybe not notice you, and if your lucky, it will happen soon, then you need to sneak up and bite them, then manage to go after them as they run around and kill them before they kill you.
Or you could just run around and leap on peoples faces and bite them without all the other work.
Without a <b>much</b> greater chance of kills with ambushes, no one will bother with it. With slow on hit, the first hit becomes the most decisive, without it, its just another hit out of the others you'll need to kill.
I'm hoping it'll be the concussive rifle upgrade they put on the prototype tech tree, as it should add utility to basic/grenadier Marines with the slowdown against higher lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=1860119:date=Jul 12 2011, 09:10 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 12 2011, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860119"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because choice of tactics is really the end result of ease of kills and effort. Ambushes require you to set up and wait, pick a good spot and someone will pass by, maybe not notice you, and if your lucky, it will happen soon, then you need to sneak up and bite them, then manage to go after them as they run around and kill them before they kill you.
Or you could just run around and leap on peoples faces and bite them without all the other work.
Without a <b>much</b> greater chance of kills with ambushes, no one will bother with it. With slow on hit, the first hit becomes the most decisive, without it, its just another hit out of the others you'll need to kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry but that's just completely too simplistic thinking. Choice of tactic is not only about ease of effort but the major decisive factor is the options you have available and which is situationally best tactic to apply. People actively used ambushes as defensive guerilla tactic even without <b>forcing</b> players to rely on that tactic only through mechanics.
What you're saying is that ambushing is superior gameplay because it has more tedious waiting attached to it? To give you a point of reference I'd like to remind you that even in NS1 ambushing was considered a poor tactic comparable to camping in other FPS games as it gives a player an edge without having to invest anything else into it except time (as opposed to developing skill in combat).
Also you're implying that a surprise attack by skulk isn't really viable because it doesn't give a near irrecoverable advantage to that player, but why should it turn into a "single hit leads to kill" style of gameplay (familiar to the CoD style of "pseudo-realistic" gameplay, which has hardly no competitiveness in it)? With a surprise attack a skulk gets the first strike so he's ahead in damage dealt, he gets the superior angle of attack, and that combined with possibly taking a marine off-guard a skulk is ahead thanks to his ambush. This means that if you ambush a player with lower, similar, or slightly higher skill level than you, you'd be able to take him down thanks to your advantage, but this also would leave room for relatively more skillful players than the assailing skulk to fight their way out of the ambush, giving players actual control of the situation through the game mechanics rather than "artificially" crippling them.
<!--quoteo(post=1860112:date=Jul 12 2011, 05:29 PM:name=Garyoak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Garyoak @ Jul 12 2011, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The implication that people are unable to view the issue with anything else except through the narrow scope of hating change is rather simplistic and frankly absurd. I have to ask, if you're not finding it harder to play skulk how good were you kdr wise with skulk play? As currently simply from the perspective from game mechanics skulk combat movement is severely crippled and if you're saying that you're not finding it harder to play then you either have found a way which allows for as good results as the previous patch or that you never fully utilized skulk movement in a head on fight.
Just as a guess, are you playing more ambush style of gameplay? And if so in your opinion would it be a good or a bad thing to have gaming mechanics that allow for both ambush style and head on, or ones that penalize head on gameplay forcing you into ambush only?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course I'm not suggesting everybody will have that narrow minded scope as that would indeed be absurd but some will. Suggesting only NS1 vets can have a valid opinion on the gameplay of NS2 is also absurd. It's not up for debate that people don't like change and is an obstacle in the development phase of all beta's that you will get opinions of people who are just upset they are pwning as much as they were yesterday. As an example, there were people on these forums within a few hours of the patch going live crying that marines are OP and skulks are useless - There is no chance those are objective opinions, they are just knee-jerk reactions due to change. If they still have the same thoughts on it after a couple weeks of testing then fair enough.
My kdr as skulk has improved in 180 and that is the sole reason I state it is not any harder. That may not have anything to do with the slowdown, I didn't say it did, that's just my experience of it.
Yes I do play a more ambush style of gameplay, doesn't everyone? Rush a marine directly down his line of fire and you are asking for trouble, slowdown on hit or not.
As a marine I didn’t notice slowdown at all, as a skulk it seemed like it cut down my effectiveness a lot. Even when getting the first bite the marine was just as hard to kill. When shot first and slowed down the melee became a killer. I had never been killed with melee until 180. Even when I didn’t die the knockback and slowdown were fatal. I’ve been playing NS since 2.0 came out. Good is relative, my K/D wasn’t great but my team scores were good.
<!--quoteo(post=1860119:date=Jul 12 2011, 08:10 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 12 2011, 08:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860119"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because choice of tactics is really the end result of ease of kills and effort. Ambushes require you to set up and wait, pick a good spot and someone will pass by, maybe not notice you, and if your lucky, it will happen soon, then you need to sneak up and bite them, then manage to go after them as they run around and kill them before they kill you.
Or you could just run around and leap on peoples faces and bite them without all the other work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe that the game priorities be it your own resource tower / hive / scouting information / other intelligence like enemy tech / countering or any other thing you value are constantly changing due your own and your enemy actions. If you limit the ability only optimal for ambushing or camping you'll end up with very much slower and less interactive game, not to mention it is very poor to assume enemy does as you please always even if it worked two or three times.
If you really could just leap and kill them without counting the probability of winning or gaining something it would hardly be interesting and be only flawed but it should not be removed for that reason. Although majority of the players are like this at the moment and end up here whining imbalance.
Comments
Does anyone NOT think the slow on hit sucks?
I think it sucks.
Does anyone NOT think slow on hit sucks?
I don't think it sucks. (mostly - it's a form of limited slippery slope)
What's the difference? The difference is what twiliteblue was trying to express. "Yes, the current slow on hit sucks, but with some tweaking it could work."
Does anyone NOT think the slow on hit sucks?
I think it sucks.
Does anyone NOT think slow on hit sucks?
I don't think it sucks. (mostly - it's a form of limited slippery slope)
What's the difference? The difference is what twiliteblue was trying to express. "Yes, the current slow on hit sucks, but with some tweaking it could work."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do we even want it to work though? This is less of a statement on balance and more on the fun factor. Losing control of your character's movement is frustrating and a rather weak mechanic. NS1 limited your jumping by slowing you down after your second jump. However, if you jumped on a higher surface it would reset the current jump count to 0, allowing for some pretty interesting ways of getting around the map.
Having said all that, I would be perfectly happy if they removed slow-on-hit instead of trying to get it to work. Or at least have it only apply to melee attacks.
Right now, all players are affected the same; if you take 40% of your hits (health + armor*2) in damage, your max speed is halved (except when hit by fire or gas).
This is kinda awful for the lerk, who can't take much damage and needs to fly away fast.
The gorge, usually reliant upon his bellyslide to run away, is now dead.
Blinking/leaping also have their max-speed halved.
Two ways of tweaking it:
- Leave special movement abilities untouched, only decrease BASE max speed (blink, leap, belly slide affected)
- Let some aliens override how much they are affected (lerks)
Note that a skulk leaping in would be unaffected by the slowdown while the leap lasted, but would be slowed when moving after landing.
Having said all that, I would be perfectly happy if they removed slow-on-hit instead of trying to get it to work. Or at least have it only apply to melee attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this isn't a fighting game and this isn't CS either, which is a slow paced game where melee combat isn't an important part, and slow on hit is terribly unfun as it works as a restriction against players instead of allowing players to freely maximize games movement mechanics for their advantage during combat. These kind of penalizing design decisions simplify the game but they take away lot of the variables in combat, making the game a monotonous execution task rather than something to enjoy playing.
And while were at it, we could give the this thingy with a button that can insta-pop a marines head at a distance. And a wallhack. ;>
I noticed that aliens have a lot of advocates that would like to see them as buffed as it is possible while constantly complaining about marines being able to shoot or walk around.
No love for the marines :(
Oh and that's not something personal, Necro - just a general statement.
As a marine, I absolutely love it. If the skulk manages to bite me, then I deserved to get bitten. Fade is another story since they suddenly pop up in your face.
As an alien, especially skulk I have mixed feelings. I like that it encourages me to be supersneaky, but when I inevitably get caught in the middle of a hallway by a marine crossing the corner on the other side, and he manages to hit me with one bullet, that usually means it's over for me.
I haven't played much around with the Fade in 180, so not sure how much it affects them, but they have their blink, and from what I have seen in other comments it's not much of a problem.
As for the Lerk, I'm still learning the new flight controls. Getting used to not being able to make swift turns to outmaneuver a sudden clump of marines is harder than it sounds, since most of the time I flip 180 and crash down in the middle of them. This could be because of the bullet slow, but most likely because of the new movement style. Because of this I'll leave this one open until I get more experienced with the Lerk flight.
All in all I don't really mind the slow as a whole, but it's not correctly implemented in 180 IMO.
What I'd like to see is that it only worked for melee. This way the marine rifle bash would get more meaning, instead of just being the "oh crap, empty clip, gotta reload. TOO LONG TIME AAAARGH!" panic button.
Would have to give it it's own button though, since it clashes with the GL. Alternately make the grenade explosion slow creatures in the blast as well.
If something like the above is completely off limits and if it is to be kept similar to the way it is now, the ranged slow from bullets would have to be drastically reduced. Possibly to the point where anything over 20m(think this was the shotgun bullet dropoff) didn't get slowed at all and the closer you get to the shooter, the more slowed you get, up to 0m(point blank) where you have the same slow as 180 currently has.
I noticed that aliens have a lot of advocates that would like to see them as buffed as it is possible while constantly complaining about marines being able to shoot or walk around.
No love for the marines :(
Oh and that's not something personal, Necro - just a general statement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, maybe you got me wrong. I like the idea of asymmetric game play like NS and NS2 got them. So I think it is nice to have one team with strong focus on movement and fast reactions and the other team focused on teamplay and aiming. So if I got bored with one play style, I switch the team and have a completely other experience. That is why I think the aliens should not suffer from this, but the marines.
IMHO, the slowdown is an equivalent to buffing the dealt damage. You don't want to give aliens double damage, don't you? :>
Currently
a) Skulks are super easy to kill as a marine. Escaping as them is difficult as well.
b) Lerks stop dead on their air-tracks because of the slowdowns. Getting hit by a turret is really frustrating.
c) Fades can be kited pretty effortlessly with a shotgun if they just come swinging at you. Three shots is enough for a kill. Unless there's a BS blink where your hit turns into a miss magically.
What I loved about NS1 was the skill-based movement.
What I loved about any FPS game was the high tempo. I can't stand the newer ones because they're making them slow and <b>so real</b>.
I grew up playing Quakes. （︶︿︶）
NS2 is the last hope for a good FPS game, and I'm pretty much against the slowdowns because of it. Hopefully there will be some speed-ups along the way instead.
Completely agree with <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114156&view=findpost&p=1860060" target="_blank">skie</a>, I have a background of competing in fast fps games and wouldn't like NS2 to be just another slow pseudo-real game.
Currently
a) Skulks are super easy to kill as a marine. Escaping as them is difficult as well.
b) Lerks stop dead on their air-tracks because of the slowdowns. Getting hit by a turret is really frustrating.
c) Fades can be kited pretty effortlessly with a shotgun if they just come swinging at you. Three shots is enough for a kill. Unless there's a BS blink where your hit turns into a miss magically.
What I loved about NS1 was the skill-based movement.
What I loved about any FPS game was the high tempo. I can't stand the newer ones because they're making them slow and <b>so real</b>.
I grew up playing Quakes. （︶︿︶）
NS2 is the last hope for a good FPS game, and I'm pretty much against the slowdowns because of it. Hopefully there will be some speed-ups along the way instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could get behind this, but marine melee already has a knockback which has a nice synergy with their ranged weaponry so can't see that requiring slowdown aswell. As for aliens, even in 179 hitting marines wasn't difficult but with a slowdown on their bite, that would make marines sitting ducks after the initial strike essentially rendering rines into a standing buffet.
I guess in the end the real question here is that design wise which does the dev team see more feasible, fast paced old-school style combat which NO other modern FPS game offers (which one could imagine would be just right the alley of people who choose to invest money in an indie company PC-exclusive product) or go for the movement restrictive slow paced combat offered by majority of modern style FPS and attempt to push your product to compete for the CoD/BF audience.
This is actually a very good analogy and something devs should take a look into as L4D is a perfect example how slowdown cripples the flow of a competitive fps game. In said game all the special infected besides tank are designed to be glass cannons in order to balance out with the sporadic survivor respawn system which requires for at least one survivor to be alive at all times. This in turn makes the infected gameplay indeed very ambush like and tedious, and frankly similar to the 180 alien gameplay. And while it is a more complex issue than just that, L4D2 versus servers are empty as hell. You're lucky just to find a single versus match on during parts of the day even after the steam summer camp sale.
Though I have to point out that I don't agree with the slowdown adding to depth, but rather the opposite as in the hypothesis of a tank being slowed down by shots would be such an effective strategy that you wouldn't even consider any sort of alternative style of combat movement.
While balancing a game with non optimized code and missing content is rather ineffective and problematic, if you're going to do it you have to do it by comparing individual parts against each other and not by looking at the end game results since they are completely irrelevant. So that in mind we can completely ditch the win percentages and check the actual balance between individual mechanics, and I have to ask that is it really good design decision to limit aliens only into L4D-esque ambush gameplay?
P.S. fps issues and warping affect marine aim considerably more than alien bite
Otherwise u get people who are just upset cos it's not what they are used to, have to relearn, don't like change from what they are used to, want an NS1 clone, etc. This is a new game after all.
Personally I'm undecided, I'm not finding skulk harder to play with it but the jury is still out.
Otherwise u get people who are just upset cos it's not what they are used to, have to relearn, don't like change from what they are used to, want an NS1 clone, etc. This is a new game after all.
Personally I'm undecided, I'm not finding skulk harder to play with it but the jury is still out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The implication that people are unable to view the issue with anything else except through the narrow scope of hating change is rather simplistic and frankly absurd. I have to ask, if you're not finding it harder to play skulk how good were you kdr wise with skulk play? As currently simply from the perspective from game mechanics skulk combat movement is severely crippled and if you're saying that you're not finding it harder to play then you either have found a way which allows for as good results as the previous patch or that you never fully utilized skulk movement in a head on fight.
Just as a guess, are you playing more ambush style of gameplay? And if so in your opinion would it be a good or a bad thing to have gaming mechanics that allow for both ambush style and head on, or ones that penalize head on gameplay forcing you into ambush only?
I personally think people are being a little bit spoiled when they bring up their objections as "Sometimes i'm killed and I can't really do anything about it."
Well that happens some times, sometimes you will just get owned because of circumstances and you won't have any chance, you aren't entitled to always having one. I also find it increasingly odd how people are harping on "how frustrating it is to have your movement restricted." Why would you be entitled to always moving at your greatest ability at all times no matter the circumstances? For the L4D comparison, they slowed special infected because they wanted to encourage ambush style game play rather than just running at your opponent arms flailing, that is the game play they were after, its not the games fault if you don't like that gameplay.
Now, I'm not saying you don't have the right to complain or that you shouldn't be heard, because you should be heard, your opinion matters too, but in the end, the designers can't please everyone and they're going to pick a style of play and you'll have a choice, adapt or quit.
Personally, as much as I think jumping and spazzing out looks stupid, I wasn't about to quit NS2 for it anymore than NS1, but I have preferences, as does everyone. If you look at the scratchpad for change ideas it seems the devs are really leaning toward <b>ambush style play skulks and fades</b> with ideas like "Aliens can hide inside DI and emerge when a marine passes to attack." On the flip side, they aren't quite sure what role lerks fulfill and the current build is to try out a more in your face aggressive variety.
Whatever it ends up with will be cool, I just care that it doesn't ruin the atmosphere by its look, and by look I just mean look. If jump spam looks right, I don't care if its in play, if slow on hit looks artificial and atmosphere breaking, I don't want it in play either.
Right now NS2 is filling a niche, an immersive FPS game with tactical RPG elements and a variety of styles based on kit/evolution, the closest game to it being AvP. It is not quake, it is not UT, it is not COD:MW, I don't think we need to make it into any of those for it to be good.
Turret or Hydra/Whip slow down should be cut in half compared to actual player fired weapons. Right now Turrets are dominating game play and can completely shut down alien movement.
I played NS1 since 1.4 and played in CAL matches. I have been playing NS2 off and on but no where near as much as I will in the future once it is polished up.
On another note they need to make the marines jumping based on energy as well so a marine trying to jump after beign bitten will be very little for the next few seconds.
Playa_2b
But why should it be one or the other, when without the slowdown mechanic both gameplay options become viable. Now sure without the slowdown the ambush isn't the only option so it won't "feel" as core part of the combat as with the slowdown implemented, but it still gives an easy first strike and an angle of attack which favors the alien making it a perfectly viable tactic.
Or you could just run around and leap on peoples faces and bite them without all the other work.
Without a <b>much</b> greater chance of kills with ambushes, no one will bother with it. With slow on hit, the first hit becomes the most decisive, without it, its just another hit out of the others you'll need to kill.
Or you could just run around and leap on peoples faces and bite them without all the other work.
Without a <b>much</b> greater chance of kills with ambushes, no one will bother with it. With slow on hit, the first hit becomes the most decisive, without it, its just another hit out of the others you'll need to kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry but that's just completely too simplistic thinking. Choice of tactic is not only about ease of effort but the major decisive factor is the options you have available and which is situationally best tactic to apply. People actively used ambushes as defensive guerilla tactic even without <b>forcing</b> players to rely on that tactic only through mechanics.
What you're saying is that ambushing is superior gameplay because it has more tedious waiting attached to it? To give you a point of reference I'd like to remind you that even in NS1 ambushing was considered a poor tactic comparable to camping in other FPS games as it gives a player an edge without having to invest anything else into it except time (as opposed to developing skill in combat).
Also you're implying that a surprise attack by skulk isn't really viable because it doesn't give a near irrecoverable advantage to that player, but why should it turn into a "single hit leads to kill" style of gameplay (familiar to the CoD style of "pseudo-realistic" gameplay, which has hardly no competitiveness in it)? With a surprise attack a skulk gets the first strike so he's ahead in damage dealt, he gets the superior angle of attack, and that combined with possibly taking a marine off-guard a skulk is ahead thanks to his ambush. This means that if you ambush a player with lower, similar, or slightly higher skill level than you, you'd be able to take him down thanks to your advantage, but this also would leave room for relatively more skillful players than the assailing skulk to fight their way out of the ambush, giving players actual control of the situation through the game mechanics rather than "artificially" crippling them.
Just as a guess, are you playing more ambush style of gameplay? And if so in your opinion would it be a good or a bad thing to have gaming mechanics that allow for both ambush style and head on, or ones that penalize head on gameplay forcing you into ambush only?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course I'm not suggesting everybody will have that narrow minded scope as that would indeed be absurd but some will. Suggesting only NS1 vets can have a valid opinion on the gameplay of NS2 is also absurd. It's not up for debate that people don't like change and is an obstacle in the development phase of all beta's that you will get opinions of people who are just upset they are pwning as much as they were yesterday. As an example, there were people on these forums within a few hours of the patch going live crying that marines are OP and skulks are useless - There is no chance those are objective opinions, they are just knee-jerk reactions due to change. If they still have the same thoughts on it after a couple weeks of testing then fair enough.
My kdr as skulk has improved in 180 and that is the sole reason I state it is not any harder. That may not have anything to do with the slowdown, I didn't say it did, that's just my experience of it.
Yes I do play a more ambush style of gameplay, doesn't everyone? Rush a marine directly down his line of fire and you are asking for trouble, slowdown on hit or not.
I’ve been playing NS since 2.0 came out.
Good is relative, my K/D wasn’t great but my team scores were good.
Or you could just run around and leap on peoples faces and bite them without all the other work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe that the game priorities be it your own resource tower / hive / scouting information / other intelligence like enemy tech / countering or any other thing you value are constantly changing due your own and your enemy actions. If you limit the ability only optimal for ambushing or camping you'll end up with very much slower and less interactive game, not to mention it is very poor to assume enemy does as you please always even if it worked two or three times.
If you really could just leap and kill them without counting the probability of winning or gaining something it would hardly be interesting and be only flawed but it should not be removed for that reason. Although majority of the players are like this at the moment and end up here whining imbalance.