I like the infestation covering the power nodes, and the marines having to get the axe out and hack it a few times before they can repair idea, seems like it would make the infested room more alien dominate.
This is my suggestion of where powernodes should be located in tram.
I've moved the powernode from observation into the tram tunnels to make it a little easier to defend. (marines can just open the door and kill whatever is chomping the powernode)
And made Marine expansion powernode accessible for aliens, but still defendable for marines. <- That should, in my opinion, be the thoughts that mappers should think when they place the powernodes.
This is my suggestion of where powernodes should be located in tram.
I've moved the powernode from observation into the tram tunnels to make it a little easier to defend. (marines can just open the door and kill whatever is chomping the powernode)
And made Marine expansion powernode accessible for aliens, but still defendable for marines. <- That should, in my opinion, be the thoughts that mappers should think when they place the powernodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for the input. If you check the more recently uploaded image of Tram, I've moved the Marine Start/Overlook Power Node close to where you suggested :). I've also considered moving the Marine Expansion Point, but I've still yet to determine the best placing. It isn't just about being accessible to kharaa and defendsible to marines; aliens will be expanding to Tech Points more frequently than Marines, so Marines should also have a chance at recovering the Node of a Kharaa-Controlled Tech Point as well. They should be assailable and defensible by both teams, regardless of ownership, to make territories more susceptible to capture.
The timing (walking/running distances) from one Power Node to the next is an important factor also, as are the number of potential points of entry to a Node.
KuBan, everything you've suggested in this thread is spot on. Starting with, "Understand the why before suggesting an improvement."
What's the value of a proposed change, that's the quintessential piece that so many people seem to miss.
I love the idea of wider area power nodes, especially the idea of moving the power node outside of marine start. Though this does punish smaller teams more, as they can't cover themselves as well.
It also makes relocation a more interesting option, because you have to consider Tech points, power availability, and resource availability.
The maps are now ready for play-testing. Now I just need people willing to host the download, host a server with it, and people willing to try this out!
I'll be carrying out the rest of this in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113568" target="_blank">this</a> thread
Powernodes repairing is hardly op. I've never run into a problem on either alien or marine side where being able to repair the powernode quickly ended up helping the marines or hindering the aliens. I think this is a solution in search of a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. The whole powernode setup seems a bit easier on aliens anyway so repairing nodes should be convenient. To be honest I think the power node is a good idea at heart but a bit... underdeveloped.
<!--quoteo(post=1848895:date=May 28 2011, 02:18 AM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ May 28 2011, 02:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a powernode is destroyed then the lighting should be off.
No emergency lighting/red lighting. Just off and pitch black.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I'd like this too really, let the marines have more flashlight use and maybe night vision/thermal later to counter perhaps, at the moment it really doesn't matter if the lights change to emergency or not. I never found it to do anything beyond looking ugly. One other problem to deal with would be neither com can really function in the downed rooms since they have no way to see in the dark.
Side question, it's fluff related I suppose: are power nodes their own generators or some wireless power transmitter? both? a transformer? It's kinda weird to power your buildings using a small power plant in every room.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1848895:date=May 28 2011, 09:18 AM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ May 28 2011, 09:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a powernode is destroyed then the lighting should be off.
No emergency lighting/red lighting. Just off and pitch black.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kinda like this suggestion, it would increase the needed use of flashlight and alien vision. I almost never use the flashlight, unless the power just went down. It reveals my location.
Edit: Flashlight and alien vision should have 30 seconds of "adrenaline/power" and then need to be recharged. Number should be balanced out for both sides with alot of testing. Since alien vision should last a little longer than the flashlight in my opinion. To give them an advantage on their own turf.
Edit 2: Powernodes could be linked. So the frontline alien turf would be red emergency lighting. And the further you go in to their territory it becomes darker. Powernodes could be "cut-off" just like infestation.
<!--quoteo(post=1848918:date=May 28 2011, 04:02 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ May 28 2011, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I kinda like this suggestion, it would increase the needed use of flashlight and alien vision. I almost never use the flashlight, unless the power just went down. It reveals my location.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
with the alien vision you don't have to worry about revealing you location, you cant see light or particle-effects with it =)
<!--quoteo(post=1848918:date=May 28 2011, 08:02 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ May 28 2011, 08:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Powernodes could be linked. So the frontline alien turf would be red emergency lighting. And the further you go in to their territory it becomes darker. Powernodes could be "cut-off" just like infestation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I love that idea actually. +1
Though I'm not sure I get what is meant by the cut off part, would that suggest there's some primary node it's being cut off from? Since there isn't such a thing, I'm not sure how it'd be cut off from anything other than other nodes, which wouldn't matter since they're independent, right now anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=1848912:date=May 28 2011, 03:25 PM:name=Kurrine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kurrine @ May 28 2011, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One other problem to deal with would be neither com can really function in the downed rooms since they have no way to see in the dark.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just allow the Alien commander to see in the dark. but then again, that would be quite over-powered because the alien commander would be able to see in light areas and the dark areas.
Maybe the alien commander coudl not see into dark rooms. Infestation could glow a bit allowing the alien commander to see in the dark. That way it would promote the use of growing infestation. A problem with this would be that the alien commander would not be able to spread the infestation in a dark room properly (Because it is dark). How about an outline of the walls to show the commander where to put infestation.
<!--quoteo(post=1849202:date=May 30 2011, 01:02 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ May 30 2011, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or just let alien comm use alien dark vision?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Has no one suggested this yet?
Let's find out, where is the problem with power nodes. I think: It is no fun in waiting more than 10 sec, while chomping / repairing a power node. Nor is it rewarding enough. A game has to be fun. Facing a wall for 30seconds holding down one key simply isn't fun.
How can we overcome this? 1. Make chomping / repairing actually fun or at least not a pain in the ass. 2. Increase the reward for chomping / repairing a node. (i.e. KuBaNs ideas point at this.)
The first point may be more rewarding for the game play. Because having actually fun is better than having no fun for a specific time, but got a reward for this time.
So how could this "make it fun"-thing look in detail? I don't know, but i have some ideas that may work.
- Extremely shorten the time that is needed for chomping / repairing a power node. If you only need ... maybe 8 seconds to destroy a power node, it would be used much more frequently by the aliens in ongoing attacks. The repair time where this shot too. So you can quickly get the power back after an alien attack but its long enough that you risk your life while repairing it in an ongoing fight. To avoid inbalance where aliens could quickly overcome a good defended base with many sentries, simply in destroying the power node fast enough, the MACs could get the ability to fortify a power node so it takes longer (But not even as long as now!) to destroy it.
- Add a Mini game in chomping / repairing a power node like the Tech is hacking a door in "Alien Swarm". (screenshot: <a href="http://images.wikia.com/alienswarm/images/f/f2/Wirehack.jpg" target="_blank">http://images.wikia.com/alienswarm/images/f/f2/Wirehack.jpg</a> ) A marine has to connect two points multiple times by turning the wire parts clock wise until the two dots are connected. The mini game for the aliens could be to turn this wire parts so the two points are not connected anymore. As alien simply turn one wire part to deactivate the power node or turn much more wire parts to make it difficult for the marine to get them in line again.
- For now, at the start of a map its wise that the aliens should begin to destroy near power nodes. But this takes the action out of the early game. (Marines try to get first res nodes. Aliens chomping power nodes and spreading infestion.) To get the PvP action back in the very early game you could set the power nodes in something like a standby-state at the beginning of the map. The first alien bite / repair second on a power node in standby would make it destroyed / active. So you got a fast pacing run for the power nodes after the map starts and don't have to look 30sec against a wall while chomping the first power node near your hive.
This are only ideas. I hope you like some of them or maybe a developer reads this and thinks about it.
I'm thinking now about where all this power comes from in the base. Of course, some might come from the outside, but I wonder if it would be fun to have a generator structure with a ton of hit points that powered the power nodes on the map, away from marine spawn. Power nodes would have lower hit points and be twice as easy to fix. If the generator went down marines would have to build portable power generators that would only power one power node. Those portable power generators would be cheap, first tier tech level and be built close to a power node.
It would provide an interesting alien alternative to attacking marine start every time. Perhaps some maps would have a generator and some wouldn't.
I know this is going a little off-topic so I've created a <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113728" target="_blank">new thread to discuss it here</a>.
The overarching symmetry of Summit makes it much more difficult to see interesting possibilities with Power Nodes. This isn't complete, but here's what I'm working with so far. If anyone's got any suggestions, feel free. <img src="http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/675/powernodedependencesumm.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Note: Yes, I removed Heliport and Surface Access res nodes.
Comments
This is my suggestion of where powernodes should be located in tram.
I've moved the powernode from observation into the tram tunnels to make it a little easier to defend. (marines can just open the door and kill whatever is chomping the powernode)
And made Marine expansion powernode accessible for aliens, but still defendable for marines. <- That should, in my opinion, be the thoughts that mappers should think when they place the powernodes.
This is my suggestion of where powernodes should be located in tram.
I've moved the powernode from observation into the tram tunnels to make it a little easier to defend. (marines can just open the door and kill whatever is chomping the powernode)
And made Marine expansion powernode accessible for aliens, but still defendable for marines. <- That should, in my opinion, be the thoughts that mappers should think when they place the powernodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the input. If you check the more recently uploaded image of Tram, I've moved the Marine Start/Overlook Power Node close to where you suggested :). I've also considered moving the Marine Expansion Point, but I've still yet to determine the best placing. It isn't just about being accessible to kharaa and defendsible to marines; aliens will be expanding to Tech Points more frequently than Marines, so Marines should also have a chance at recovering the Node of a Kharaa-Controlled Tech Point as well. They should be assailable and defensible by both teams, regardless of ownership, to make territories more susceptible to capture.
The timing (walking/running distances) from one Power Node to the next is an important factor also, as are the number of potential points of entry to a Node.
What's the value of a proposed change, that's the quintessential piece that so many people seem to miss.
I love the idea of wider area power nodes, especially the idea of moving the power node outside of marine start. Though this does punish smaller teams more, as they can't cover themselves as well.
It also makes relocation a more interesting option, because you have to consider Tech points, power availability, and resource availability.
The maps are now ready for play-testing. Now I just need people willing to host the download, host a server with it, and people willing to try this out!
I'll be carrying out the rest of this in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113568" target="_blank">this</a> thread
Powernodes repairing is hardly op. I've never run into a problem on either alien or marine side where being able to repair the powernode quickly ended up helping the marines or hindering the aliens. I think this is a solution in search of a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. The whole powernode setup seems a bit easier on aliens anyway so repairing nodes should be convenient. To be honest I think the power node is a good idea at heart but a bit... underdeveloped.
No emergency lighting/red lighting.
Just off and pitch black.
No emergency lighting/red lighting.
Just off and pitch black.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I'd like this too really, let the marines have more flashlight use and maybe night vision/thermal later to counter perhaps, at the moment it really doesn't matter if the lights change to emergency or not. I never found it to do anything beyond looking ugly. One other problem to deal with would be neither com can really function in the downed rooms since they have no way to see in the dark.
Side question, it's fluff related I suppose: are power nodes their own generators or some wireless power transmitter? both? a transformer? It's kinda weird to power your buildings using a small power plant in every room.
No emergency lighting/red lighting.
Just off and pitch black.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kinda like this suggestion, it would increase the needed use of flashlight and alien vision. I almost never use the flashlight, unless the power just went down. It reveals my location.
Edit: Flashlight and alien vision should have 30 seconds of "adrenaline/power" and then need to be recharged. Number should be balanced out for both sides with alot of testing. Since alien vision should last a little longer than the flashlight in my opinion. To give them an advantage on their own turf.
Edit 2: Powernodes could be linked. So the frontline alien turf would be red emergency lighting. And the further you go in to their territory it becomes darker. Powernodes could be "cut-off" just like infestation.
with the alien vision you don't have to worry about revealing you location, you cant see light or particle-effects with it =)
I love that idea actually.
+1
Though I'm not sure I get what is meant by the cut off part, would that suggest there's some primary node it's being cut off from? Since there isn't such a thing, I'm not sure how it'd be cut off from anything other than other nodes, which wouldn't matter since they're independent, right now anyways.
Just allow the Alien commander to see in the dark.
but then again, that would be quite over-powered because the alien commander would be able to see in light areas and the dark areas.
Maybe the alien commander coudl not see into dark rooms. Infestation could glow a bit allowing the alien commander to see in the dark. That way it would promote the use of growing infestation. A problem with this would be that the alien commander would not be able to spread the infestation in a dark room properly (Because it is dark). How about an outline of the walls to show the commander where to put infestation.
Has no one suggested this yet?
Get on that, Hari!
How can we overcome this?
1. Make chomping / repairing actually fun or at least not a pain in the ass.
2. Increase the reward for chomping / repairing a node. (i.e. KuBaNs ideas point at this.)
The first point may be more rewarding for the game play. Because having actually fun is better than having no fun for a specific time, but got a reward for this time.
So how could this "make it fun"-thing look in detail? I don't know, but i have some ideas that may work.
- Extremely shorten the time that is needed for chomping / repairing a power node. If you only need ... maybe 8 seconds to destroy a power node, it would be used much more frequently by the aliens in ongoing attacks. The repair time where this shot too. So you can quickly get the power back after an alien attack but its long enough that you risk your life while repairing it in an ongoing fight.
To avoid inbalance where aliens could quickly overcome a good defended base with many sentries, simply in destroying the power node fast enough, the MACs could get the ability to fortify a power node so it takes longer (But not even as long as now!) to destroy it.
- Add a Mini game in chomping / repairing a power node like the Tech is hacking a door in "Alien Swarm". (screenshot: <a href="http://images.wikia.com/alienswarm/images/f/f2/Wirehack.jpg" target="_blank">http://images.wikia.com/alienswarm/images/f/f2/Wirehack.jpg</a> ) A marine has to connect two points multiple times by turning the wire parts clock wise until the two dots are connected. The mini game for the aliens could be to turn this wire parts so the two points are not connected anymore. As alien simply turn one wire part to deactivate the power node or turn much more wire parts to make it difficult for the marine to get them in line again.
- For now, at the start of a map its wise that the aliens should begin to destroy near power nodes. But this takes the action out of the early game. (Marines try to get first res nodes. Aliens chomping power nodes and spreading infestion.) To get the PvP action back in the very early game you could set the power nodes in something like a standby-state at the beginning of the map. The first alien bite / repair second on a power node in standby would make it destroyed / active. So you got a fast pacing run for the power nodes after the map starts and don't have to look 30sec against a wall while chomping the first power node near your hive.
This are only ideas. I hope you like some of them or maybe a developer reads this and thinks about it.
Greetings Necro
It would provide an interesting alien alternative to attacking marine start every time. Perhaps some maps would have a generator and some wouldn't.
I know this is going a little off-topic so I've created a <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113728" target="_blank">new thread to discuss it here</a>.
<img src="http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/675/powernodedependencesumm.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Note: Yes, I removed Heliport and Surface Access res nodes.