<!--quoteo(post=1844602:date=May 7 2011, 05:06 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ May 7 2011, 05:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844602"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because physics is for noobs! /sarcasm<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Trying to imitate any kind of natural movement -not to speak of an agile predator- using binary input of mouse buttons and keyboard is terrible.
Try imagining your everyday sports activity in a situation where you have no abilitiy to choose how much force or effort you put into anything. Either you run full speed or stand still, either you kick the ball full force to the guy standing 3m away or you don't do it at all. That's the real life physics and the game input for you.
Things like air curving imitate the sensation where you actually have the ability to do things in a controlled way. It's not the most realistic thing, but it's an excellent makeshift system for imitating some elements realistic body control. Unless someone comes up with a better makeshift system, I'm more than willing to stick with the old one.
Not really, it just means that people on the recieiving end have to deal with magical levitating skulks.
If you can't make motion realistic with the limitations of a keyboard (which you can't), stop relying on realistic motion. If aliens aren't combat effective due to bad controls, then it's probably got a lot to do with fast paced first person melee combat being an incredibly poor idea.
No amount of control improvements will change the fact that you are an incredibly fast player trying to move incredibly fast around another player while tracking them at point blank, which is kind of disorienting. I would suggest you move aliens away from that because it didn't work in NS1, and I don't imagine it's going to work in NS2.
Compare the NS2 lerk with its snipe ability against the skulk and fade, see which one is easier to use, which is more effective, which, ultimately, is going to remain the best class. On the one hand you've got a class which succeeds by finding a good hiding spot and ambushing people, and on the other you've got a class that relies on being able to do some extremely difficult motion tracking, and doesn't even get any other benefits really. The only reason to use a fade at this point is to demolish buildings.
I think you're going to have to move all the aliens over to the ambush model, for the most part anyway. The onos I can conceivably see being a sort of positioning challenge, using your shield ability to block fire and moving so you can't get flanked while still advancing, then using your attacks once you're close enough, that might work as it's again a somewhat cerebral exercise, not limited by the interface but more by knowledge of player psychology. The lerk is already good at this although I would cut the sniper shot power a bit, as it's currently a bit hideously OP. The skulk could conceivably be made into a crappier version of the lerk? Sitting in roof spaces or round corners and getting a bit of an auto-lockon backstab kind of effect for leap which lets them kill marines easily if they can say, hit them from above or behind. It'd need work though. The fade I'm not sure what to do about, could perhaps give it some stealth abilities and bring that slow stab attack into play more? Not sure.
Basically I don't think any amount of air control or bunnyhopping or other stupid 'mash buttons a lot for more health' style mechanics are going to improve the alien side, it's going to make it a lot harder to play effectively, which is going to make easy classes like the gorge and lerk much more powerful, but it isn't going to make the alien side competitive.
<!--quoteo(post=1844669:date=May 7 2011, 01:28 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ May 7 2011, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844669"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 skull vs marine combat was some of the most exciting and skillful combat in any game ever released...
Anything that gets us closer to that is a winner in my books..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's quake 3 at disorientingly close range. Hardly an amazing concept.
<!--quoteo(post=1844670:date=May 7 2011, 11:13 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 7 2011, 11:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844670"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's quake 3 at disorientingly close range. Hardly an amazing concept.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->going to the official website of what was once an immensly popular HL1 mod and trolling them by saying the core mechanic never worked in the first place? Hardly an amazing concept.
I think that's a little unfair given that NS is a quite complex game and skulk vs marine is hardly 'the core mechanic'.
It is a common situation in the early part of the game, yes, but that's like saying pressing E on res nodes is a core mechanic.
NS has a lot of features to recommend it, the asymmetrical sides are an interesting idea, and the game does them well enough for it to add a lot of variety. The building mechanic also adds a lot to the overall structure of the game, and the RTS/FPS mechanics are actually put together surprisingly well given how horribly flawed that idea in general is. it does a lot of difficult things surprisingly well.
<!--quoteo(post=1844662:date=May 7 2011, 12:46 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ May 7 2011, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Trying to imitate any kind of natural movement -not to speak of an agile predator- using binary input of mouse buttons and keyboard is terrible.
Try imagining your everyday sports activity in a situation where you have no abilitiy to choose how much force or effort you put into anything. Either you run full speed or stand still, either you kick the ball full force to the guy standing 3m away or you don't do it at all. That's the real life physics and the game input for you.
Things like air curving imitate the sensation where you actually have the ability to do things in a controlled way. It's not the most realistic thing, but it's an excellent makeshift system for imitating some elements realistic body control. Unless someone comes up with a better makeshift system, I'm more than willing to stick with the old one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
That is actually the main reason why I like oldschool engines better then these newer engines that try to imitate real life by stuffing a few potato sacks down your pantz...
<!--quoteo(post=1844664:date=May 7 2011, 05:04 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 7 2011, 05:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically I don't think any amount of air control or bunnyhopping or other stupid 'mash buttons a lot for more health' style mechanics are going to improve the alien side, it's going to make it a lot harder to play effectively, which is going to make easy classes like the gorge and lerk much more powerful, but it isn't going to make the alien side competitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with this many times over; this keeps players coming back for more. I still play NS1 finding things to improve on and learn. Essentially it allows new players to enjoy the thrill of skulk by leaping around and hiding, <i>but</i> it also allows for the players who've invested more time and effort to push the gameplay ceiling a bit higher.
NS is already (on a strategic level) a game with an intensive learning curve, the basics are pretty clear early on but mastery is far off. I want movement to be the exact same way.
I started playing NS1 again, and that is one fun game. That is why I bought NS2.
But the thing that is great about NS1, is the movement, especially of the aliens. NS2 is totally different, and isn't nearly as good. And NS2 won't be fun to play until performance and movement is fixed.
I could care less about new features, I just want NS2 to be like NS1. New features aren't necessarily fun. Good movement is. If I'm not mistaken, movement code would be in Lua, so why is this not a priority?
The aliens feel awful, and marine movement is pretty bad as well. This is the opposite of fun. It is awkward and frustrating.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1844662:date=May 7 2011, 04:46 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ May 7 2011, 04:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Trying to imitate any kind of natural movement -not to speak of an agile predator- using binary input of mouse buttons and keyboard is terrible.
Try imagining your everyday sports activity in a situation where you have no abilitiy to choose how much force or effort you put into anything. Either you run full speed or stand still, either you kick the ball full force to the guy standing 3m away or you don't do it at all. That's the real life physics and the game input for you.
Things like air curving imitate the sensation where you actually have the ability to do things in a controlled way. It's not the most realistic thing, but it's an excellent makeshift system for imitating some elements realistic body control. Unless someone comes up with a better makeshift system, I'm more than willing to stick with the old one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet nearly every multiplayer tries to emulate at least the basic physical properties of the universe for the very fact that its what we are familiar with. The ones that don't (think Portal1/2) at least make the unrealistic parts somewhat believable by tying their workings into the universe they've created.
Air control, bhopping, and most other movements are legacies of engine/game bugs that we've all become accustomed too, but thats not a good reason to keep them. Gameplay should trump realism, but if you can't make something believable or familiar (which realism helps accomplish), then it will impact gameplay by increasing the learning curve unnecessarily, e.g. NS1.
I am reminded of recent golfing games, where spin is simulated by steering the ball after you have hit it...
<!--quoteo(post=1844664:date=May 7 2011, 10:04 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 7 2011, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If aliens aren't combat effective due to bad controls, then it's probably got a lot to do with fast paced first person melee combat being an incredibly poor idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1844675:date=May 7 2011, 11:49 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 7 2011, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that's a little unfair given that NS is a quite complex game and skulk vs marine is hardly 'the core mechanic'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The reason I believed you to be trolling is because it sounded like you were saying that the entire melee vs ranged concept was a bad idea. I would argue that a primarily melee team vs a primarily ranged team is indeed a core mechanic of this game.
<!--quoteo(post=1844750:date=May 7 2011, 06:38 PM:name=FuzionMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FuzionMonkey @ May 7 2011, 06:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I started playing NS1 again, and that is one fun game. That is why I bought NS2.
But the thing that is great about NS1, is the movement, especially of the aliens. NS2 is totally different, and isn't nearly as good. And NS2 won't be fun to play until performance and movement is fixed.
I could care less about new features, I just want NS2 to be like NS1. New features aren't necessarily fun. Good movement is. If I'm not mistaken, movement code would be in Lua, so why is this not a priority?
The aliens feel awful, and marine movement is pretty bad as well. This is the opposite of fun. It is awkward and frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is the exact same problem I saw in the Starcraft 2 beta. People came in thinking that they were playing Brood War with updated graphics, ladder systems (which is debatable if they really updated or not), and story. What they got, was Starcraft 2.
<!--quoteo(post=1844664:date=May 7 2011, 08:04 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 7 2011, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No amount of control improvements will change the fact that you are an incredibly fast player trying to move incredibly fast around another player while tracking them at point blank, which is kind of disorienting. I would suggest you move aliens away from that because it didn't work in NS1, and I don't imagine it's going to work in NS2.
The skulk could conceivably be made into a crappier version of the lerk? Sitting in roof spaces or round corners and getting a bit of an auto-lockon backstab kind of effect for leap which lets them kill marines easily if they can say, hit them from above or behind. It'd need work though. The fade I'm not sure what to do about, could perhaps give it some stealth abilities and bring that slow stab attack into play more? Not sure.
Basically I don't think any amount of air control or bunnyhopping or other stupid 'mash buttons a lot for more health' style mechanics are going to improve the alien side, it's going to make it a lot harder to play effectively, which is going to make easy classes like the gorge and lerk much more powerful, but it isn't going to make the alien side competitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> These are all excellent points. Fast-moving objects, fast attacks, and a lack of depth-perception cause melee combat to be extremely chaotic, and rely too heavily on luck (network issues).
The depth-perception issue can be alleviated by switching players to the third-person (allowing them to pivot their camera around the attack to gauge depth) when wielding a melee weapon/attack, however this would be a drastic change from NS1 to NS2 that many have already protested.
From what I can tell, Feint is looking similar to WarCraft 3's Shadowmeld, which would drastically help to facilitate the use of the slow swipe, and ambushing tactics in general. As for Skulks; instead of a backstab insta-kill, have Leap cause Marines to trip or stumble and reduce their movement speed momentarily in the same way landing a jump did in NS1. This would slow things down enough to make it easier to score a bite.
<!--quoteo(post=1844755:date=May 7 2011, 07:38 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ May 7 2011, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And yet nearly every multiplayer tries to emulate at least the basic physical properties of the universe for the very fact that its what we are familiar with. The ones that don't (think Portal1/2) at least make the unrealistic parts somewhat believable by tying their workings into the universe they've created.
Air control, bhopping, and most other movements are legacies of engine/game bugs that we've all become accustomed too, but thats not a good reason to keep them. Gameplay should trump realism, but if you can't make something believable or familiar (which realism helps accomplish), then it will impact gameplay by increasing the learning curve unnecessarily, e.g. NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1. Also, skill-based movement thread from months ago <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112063&view=findpost&p=1838054" target="_blank">HERE</a>.
Overall, Cory's earlier post has allayed my concerns at least temporarily.
<!--quoteo(post=1844755:date=May 8 2011, 12:38 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ May 8 2011, 12:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And yet nearly every multiplayer tries to emulate at least the basic physical properties of the universe for the very fact that its what we are familiar with. The ones that don't (think Portal1/2) at least make the unrealistic parts somewhat believable by tying their workings into the universe they've created.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Could you name a few that are actually relevant in NS case? I can certainly see a gun vs gun semi-realistic shooter working just fine. I'm not even sure if MW2 has a jump button for anything else than climbing over ledges. As for relevant, all I can think of is the AvP series, which has never been much of a multiplayer in any consistent, controlled, competetive or strategical sense as far as I've understood it.
Out of any quicker games I can think of: TF2 has midair double jumps, rocket jumps and air strafing. UT series at least had air dodge jumps.
Quake Live has strafejumping and rocket jumps without air curve. It works there, but notably approaching your enemy and hitting him on melee is <b>extremely</b> difficult and awkward if he has even the slightest idea that you're going to melee. Going against anything heavier than machine gun (which gives you probably almost 5 seconds of lifetime under constant fire) enemy is usually a total suicide.
In the real world you can do things that you simply can't do in a video game, play with your balance, move your limbs, grab something in mid-air to change your direction etc. It's impossible to get all that into a game. So what you do to simulate the <i>feel</i> of control is you bend reality a little and allow for things like air control and other advanced movement features that may not be an accurate representation of real life physics, but that allow the player to increase his movement options much like you have a lot more movement options in the real world (especially if you're a cat) than just walking and jumping straight.
My *current* understanding is that Alien and Marine movement is going to be made as close to NS1 as possible. Charlie states on his design doc that; 'Decided to give skill-based movement to aliens, not marines.' I'm not sure if this means b-hop, but I'm guessing and hoping that it does. I'm also assuming and hoping that Marine movement will be made the same as NS1, ie no jump slow-down if the Z axis is different at jump time.
Please remember that allot of game features are still placeholders and many changes and improvements are planned in the coming months.
Glad to see a lot of people on board with trying to stay true to the ns1 movement mechanics. I find it hard to argue against unless you didn't play enough to truly appreciate the flexibility it gave to players.
<!--quoteo(post=1844854:date=May 8 2011, 07:22 AM:name=crae)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crae @ May 8 2011, 07:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My *current* understanding is that Alien and Marine movement is going to be made as close to NS1 as possible. Charlie states on his design doc that; 'Decided to give skill-based movement to aliens, not marines.' I'm not sure if this means b-hop, but I'm guessing and hoping that it does. I'm also assuming and hoping that Marine movement will be made the same as NS1, ie no jump slow-down if the Z axis is different at jump time.
Please remember that allot of game features are still placeholders and many changes and improvements are planned in the coming months.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if I'm correctly remembering this or not, but didn't UW once say that skulks will have a sort of bunnyhop that would allow them to maintain leap speed, but not actually gain acceleration like in hl1? And now cory just came out saying most likely not bhop =(. I'm almost moved to tears.
One good thing CO offered ns was celerity vs resupply practices. The things a skulk had to master to gain ground faster to cut down the range barrier.
I really just can't get over the dumb, dumb inclusion of an alien commander.
The coolest part about NS is the two teams felt very different. Marines have the commander and command structure in place, they get orders from the eye in the sky and then follow them (hopefully). The aliens were a singular organic hive-mind-team that just grows and expands when you let it.
Now it's like the aliens are just melee-only marines that move faster. It's really taking alot of the fun out of the game. Stop being a stubborn ###### and get rid of the alien commander already. It's NOT a good idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1844955:date=May 9 2011, 12:16 AM:name=jkflipflop)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jkflipflop @ May 9 2011, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really just can't get over the dumb, dumb inclusion of an alien commander.
The coolest part about NS is the two teams felt very different. Marines have the commander and command structure in place, they get orders from the eye in the sky and then follow them (hopefully). The aliens were a singular organic hive-mind-team that just grows and expands when you let it.
Now it's like the aliens are just melee-only marines that move faster. It's really taking alot of the fun out of the game. Stop being a stubborn ###### and get rid of the alien commander already. It's NOT a good idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In your opinion
I think the Idea of the Alien commander is a good one, in the sense that its like the hive mind is able to work on its own. Lets not forget that the Kharaa are just macro form bacteria.
I think alien commander much like a lot of things in NS2 need tweaking and need to be adjusted or even rehashed, but its part of the game that adds to NS2s fun level.
<!--quoteo(post=1844958:date=May 8 2011, 10:01 PM:name=Majin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Majin @ May 8 2011, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844958"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In your opinion
I think the Idea of the Alien commander is a good one, in the sense that its like the hive mind is able to work on its own. Lets not forget that the Kharaa are just macro form bacteria.
I think alien commander much like a lot of things in NS2 need tweaking and need to be adjusted or even rehashed, but its part of the game that adds to NS2s fun level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There can be no "hive mind" and a "commander" at the same time. Those two things are mutually exclusive to one another. That's not an opinion.
While it's cool that it makes the game more fun for you, it kind of kills it for me. Playing aliens just isn't that fun for me and it's because of the flow of having a comm vs. a hive mind of NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=1844955:date=May 8 2011, 09:16 PM:name=jkflipflop)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jkflipflop @ May 8 2011, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really just can't get over the dumb, dumb inclusion of an alien commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. But they seem to be firm as of cory's post.
<!--quoteo(post=1844965:date=May 9 2011, 07:29 AM:name=jkflipflop)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jkflipflop @ May 9 2011, 07:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There can be no "hive mind" and a "commander" at the same time. Those two things are mutually exclusive to one another. That's not an opinion.
While it's cool that it makes the game more fun for you, it kind of kills it for me. Playing aliens just isn't that fun for me and it's because of the flow of having a comm vs. a hive mind of NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, the point people miss about the concept of a hive mind is that they aren't many intelligences and personalities working together, that's just teamwork, they are a single, vast intelligence distributed over many bodies. That's why it's a singular term.
A single alien commander directing many alien structures and AI units fits that infinitely better than the entire alien team running around with their own ideas.
There is a quite important philosophical difference between alien and marine commander playstyles, the alien commander has direct control over everything, he personally builds all his structures with drifters, directs the progression of infestation, and also spends quite a bit of time micromanaging his structures by triggering their abiliites and moving whips around and growing more of them etc.
The marine commander on the other hand relies far more on the marines, marines build faster than macs, the structures don't do much on their own, the marine side focusses on the marines far more than the alien side focusses on the aliens, the alien side is as much the buildings and the infestation as it is the players, whereas the marine commander is really only there to help the marines out.
Essentially, the alien commander plays his own game, and incidentally helps out alien players by providing more spawns and healing and defence and so on, it's all an automatic side effect of spreading across the map. Marine comms on the other hand have to deliberately work with their players and players have to work with their commanders.
For aliens, the commander <i>is</i> the hive mind, and he is essentially another class, for marines, the commander is just the marine in charge.
This also says nothing of the fact that the alien building mechanic works far better now than it ever did in NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=1844955:date=May 9 2011, 02:16 PM:name=jkflipflop)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jkflipflop @ May 9 2011, 02:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really just can't get over the dumb, dumb inclusion of an alien commander.
The coolest part about NS is the two teams felt very different. Marines have the commander and command structure in place, they get orders from the eye in the sky and then follow them (hopefully). The aliens were a singular organic hive-mind-team that just grows and expands when you let it.
Now it's like the aliens are just melee-only marines that move faster. It's really taking alot of the fun out of the game. Stop being a stubborn ###### and get rid of the alien commander already. It's NOT a good idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I complete agree...
With every evolution of NS2 i think they are moving back towards NS1 which is really good..
I really think UNW should listen to their fans/customers/long term supporters and drop Alien commander the feeling i get is most people don't want it..
I can understand their reluctance not to because its always hard to scrap a feature you have developed but i think it would be for the greater good..
Bring back the focus to the gorge as being the main co-ordinator / builder for aliens.
You can still have team resource model as you do now but just change it so that only gorges can spend team res on units that where built from the hive previously.
I also think change the way the trigger attacks work on crags/whips etc make it so that any aliens can go upto the chamber and hit 'use' to trigger the ability..
This to me feels much more "alien" and organic....
With every evolution of NS2 i think they are moving back towards NS1 which is really good..
I really think UNW should listen to their fans/customers/long term supporters and drop Alien commander the feeling i get is most people don't want it..
I can understand their reluctance not to because its always hard to scrap a feature you have developed but i think it would be for the greater good..
Bring back the focus to the gorge as being the main co-ordinator / builder for aliens.
You can still have team resource model as you do now but just change it so that only gorges can spend team res on units that where built from the hive previously.
I also think change the way the trigger attacks work on crags/whips etc make it so that any aliens can go upto the chamber and hit 'use' to trigger the ability..
This to me feels much more "alien" and organic....
Comments
^2
Movement, air control and bhop are very important.
Trying to imitate any kind of natural movement -not to speak of an agile predator- using binary input of mouse buttons and keyboard is terrible.
Try imagining your everyday sports activity in a situation where you have no abilitiy to choose how much force or effort you put into anything. Either you run full speed or stand still, either you kick the ball full force to the guy standing 3m away or you don't do it at all. That's the real life physics and the game input for you.
Things like air curving imitate the sensation where you actually have the ability to do things in a controlled way. It's not the most realistic thing, but it's an excellent makeshift system for imitating some elements realistic body control. Unless someone comes up with a better makeshift system, I'm more than willing to stick with the old one.
If you can't make motion realistic with the limitations of a keyboard (which you can't), stop relying on realistic motion. If aliens aren't combat effective due to bad controls, then it's probably got a lot to do with fast paced first person melee combat being an incredibly poor idea.
No amount of control improvements will change the fact that you are an incredibly fast player trying to move incredibly fast around another player while tracking them at point blank, which is kind of disorienting. I would suggest you move aliens away from that because it didn't work in NS1, and I don't imagine it's going to work in NS2.
Compare the NS2 lerk with its snipe ability against the skulk and fade, see which one is easier to use, which is more effective, which, ultimately, is going to remain the best class. On the one hand you've got a class which succeeds by finding a good hiding spot and ambushing people, and on the other you've got a class that relies on being able to do some extremely difficult motion tracking, and doesn't even get any other benefits really. The only reason to use a fade at this point is to demolish buildings.
I think you're going to have to move all the aliens over to the ambush model, for the most part anyway. The onos I can conceivably see being a sort of positioning challenge, using your shield ability to block fire and moving so you can't get flanked while still advancing, then using your attacks once you're close enough, that might work as it's again a somewhat cerebral exercise, not limited by the interface but more by knowledge of player psychology. The lerk is already good at this although I would cut the sniper shot power a bit, as it's currently a bit hideously OP. The skulk could conceivably be made into a crappier version of the lerk? Sitting in roof spaces or round corners and getting a bit of an auto-lockon backstab kind of effect for leap which lets them kill marines easily if they can say, hit them from above or behind. It'd need work though. The fade I'm not sure what to do about, could perhaps give it some stealth abilities and bring that slow stab attack into play more? Not sure.
Basically I don't think any amount of air control or bunnyhopping or other stupid 'mash buttons a lot for more health' style mechanics are going to improve the alien side, it's going to make it a lot harder to play effectively, which is going to make easy classes like the gorge and lerk much more powerful, but it isn't going to make the alien side competitive.
Anything that gets us closer to that is a winner in my books..
Gameplay is the most important factor.
I goto say no jump leap ###### me to tears.
Anything that gets us closer to that is a winner in my books..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's quake 3 at disorientingly close range. Hardly an amazing concept.
It is a common situation in the early part of the game, yes, but that's like saying pressing E on res nodes is a core mechanic.
NS has a lot of features to recommend it, the asymmetrical sides are an interesting idea, and the game does them well enough for it to add a lot of variety. The building mechanic also adds a lot to the overall structure of the game, and the RTS/FPS mechanics are actually put together surprisingly well given how horribly flawed that idea in general is. it does a lot of difficult things surprisingly well.
A small combat mechanic is hardly signfiicant.
Try imagining your everyday sports activity in a situation where you have no abilitiy to choose how much force or effort you put into anything. Either you run full speed or stand still, either you kick the ball full force to the guy standing 3m away or you don't do it at all. That's the real life physics and the game input for you.
Things like air curving imitate the sensation where you actually have the ability to do things in a controlled way. It's not the most realistic thing, but it's an excellent makeshift system for imitating some elements realistic body control. Unless someone comes up with a better makeshift system, I'm more than willing to stick with the old one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You nailed it.
Yes, they are.
I disagree with this many times over; this keeps players coming back for more. I still play NS1 finding things to improve on and learn. Essentially it allows new players to enjoy the thrill of skulk by leaping around and hiding, <i>but</i> it also allows for the players who've invested more time and effort to push the gameplay ceiling a bit higher.
NS is already (on a strategic level) a game with an intensive learning curve, the basics are pretty clear early on but mastery is far off. I want movement to be the exact same way.
But the thing that is great about NS1, is the movement, especially of the aliens. NS2 is totally different, and isn't nearly as good. And NS2 won't be fun to play until performance and movement is fixed.
I could care less about new features, I just want NS2 to be like NS1. New features aren't necessarily fun. Good movement is. If I'm not mistaken, movement code would be in Lua, so why is this not a priority?
The aliens feel awful, and marine movement is pretty bad as well. This is the opposite of fun. It is awkward and frustrating.
Try imagining your everyday sports activity in a situation where you have no abilitiy to choose how much force or effort you put into anything. Either you run full speed or stand still, either you kick the ball full force to the guy standing 3m away or you don't do it at all. That's the real life physics and the game input for you.
Things like air curving imitate the sensation where you actually have the ability to do things in a controlled way. It's not the most realistic thing, but it's an excellent makeshift system for imitating some elements realistic body control. Unless someone comes up with a better makeshift system, I'm more than willing to stick with the old one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet nearly every multiplayer tries to emulate at least the basic physical properties of the universe for the very fact that its what we are familiar with. The ones that don't (think Portal1/2) at least make the unrealistic parts somewhat believable by tying their workings into the universe they've created.
Air control, bhopping, and most other movements are legacies of engine/game bugs that we've all become accustomed too, but thats not a good reason to keep them. Gameplay should trump realism, but if you can't make something believable or familiar (which realism helps accomplish), then it will impact gameplay by increasing the learning curve unnecessarily, e.g. NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=1844664:date=May 7 2011, 10:04 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 7 2011, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If aliens aren't combat effective due to bad controls, then it's probably got a lot to do with fast paced first person melee combat being an incredibly poor idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1844675:date=May 7 2011, 11:49 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 7 2011, 11:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that's a little unfair given that NS is a quite complex game and skulk vs marine is hardly 'the core mechanic'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The reason I believed you to be trolling is because it sounded like you were saying that the entire melee vs ranged concept was a bad idea. I would argue that a primarily melee team vs a primarily ranged team is indeed a core mechanic of this game.
But the thing that is great about NS1, is the movement, especially of the aliens. NS2 is totally different, and isn't nearly as good. And NS2 won't be fun to play until performance and movement is fixed.
I could care less about new features, I just want NS2 to be like NS1. New features aren't necessarily fun. Good movement is. If I'm not mistaken, movement code would be in Lua, so why is this not a priority?
The aliens feel awful, and marine movement is pretty bad as well. This is the opposite of fun. It is awkward and frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is the exact same problem I saw in the Starcraft 2 beta. People came in thinking that they were playing Brood War with updated graphics, ladder systems (which is debatable if they really updated or not), and story. What they got, was Starcraft 2.
NS2 will never be, and should never be, NS1.
The skulk could conceivably be made into a crappier version of the lerk? Sitting in roof spaces or round corners and getting a bit of an auto-lockon backstab kind of effect for leap which lets them kill marines easily if they can say, hit them from above or behind. It'd need work though. The fade I'm not sure what to do about, could perhaps give it some stealth abilities and bring that slow stab attack into play more? Not sure.
Basically I don't think any amount of air control or bunnyhopping or other stupid 'mash buttons a lot for more health' style mechanics are going to improve the alien side, it's going to make it a lot harder to play effectively, which is going to make easy classes like the gorge and lerk much more powerful, but it isn't going to make the alien side competitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are all excellent points. Fast-moving objects, fast attacks, and a lack of depth-perception cause melee combat to be extremely chaotic, and rely too heavily on luck (network issues).
The depth-perception issue can be alleviated by switching players to the third-person (allowing them to pivot their camera around the attack to gauge depth) when wielding a melee weapon/attack, however this would be a drastic change from NS1 to NS2 that many have already protested.
From what I can tell, Feint is looking similar to WarCraft 3's Shadowmeld, which would drastically help to facilitate the use of the slow swipe, and ambushing tactics in general. As for Skulks; instead of a backstab insta-kill, have Leap cause Marines to trip or stumble and reduce their movement speed momentarily in the same way landing a jump did in NS1. This would slow things down enough to make it easier to score a bite.
<!--quoteo(post=1844755:date=May 7 2011, 07:38 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ May 7 2011, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And yet nearly every multiplayer tries to emulate at least the basic physical properties of the universe for the very fact that its what we are familiar with. The ones that don't (think Portal1/2) at least make the unrealistic parts somewhat believable by tying their workings into the universe they've created.
Air control, bhopping, and most other movements are legacies of engine/game bugs that we've all become accustomed too, but thats not a good reason to keep them. Gameplay should trump realism, but if you can't make something believable or familiar (which realism helps accomplish), then it will impact gameplay by increasing the learning curve unnecessarily, e.g. NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1. Also, skill-based movement thread from months ago <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112063&view=findpost&p=1838054" target="_blank">HERE</a>.
Overall, Cory's earlier post has allayed my concerns at least temporarily.
Could you name a few that are actually relevant in NS case? I can certainly see a gun vs gun semi-realistic shooter working just fine. I'm not even sure if MW2 has a jump button for anything else than climbing over ledges. As for relevant, all I can think of is the AvP series, which has never been much of a multiplayer in any consistent, controlled, competetive or strategical sense as far as I've understood it.
Out of any quicker games I can think of: TF2 has midair double jumps, rocket jumps and air strafing. UT series at least had air dodge jumps.
Quake Live has strafejumping and rocket jumps without air curve. It works there, but notably approaching your enemy and hitting him on melee is <b>extremely</b> difficult and awkward if he has even the slightest idea that you're going to melee. Going against anything heavier than machine gun (which gives you probably almost 5 seconds of lifetime under constant fire) enemy is usually a total suicide.
Please remember that allot of game features are still placeholders and many changes and improvements are planned in the coming months.
Please remember that allot of game features are still placeholders and many changes and improvements are planned in the coming months.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if I'm correctly remembering this or not, but didn't UW once say that skulks will have a sort of bunnyhop that would allow them to maintain leap speed, but not actually gain acceleration like in hl1? And now cory just came out saying most likely not bhop =(. I'm almost moved to tears.
One good thing CO offered ns was celerity vs resupply practices. The things a skulk had to master to gain ground faster to cut down the range barrier.
The coolest part about NS is the two teams felt very different. Marines have the commander and command structure in place, they get orders from the eye in the sky and then follow them (hopefully). The aliens were a singular organic hive-mind-team that just grows and expands when you let it.
Now it's like the aliens are just melee-only marines that move faster. It's really taking alot of the fun out of the game. Stop being a stubborn ###### and get rid of the alien commander already. It's NOT a good idea.
The coolest part about NS is the two teams felt very different. Marines have the commander and command structure in place, they get orders from the eye in the sky and then follow them (hopefully). The aliens were a singular organic hive-mind-team that just grows and expands when you let it.
Now it's like the aliens are just melee-only marines that move faster. It's really taking alot of the fun out of the game. Stop being a stubborn ###### and get rid of the alien commander already. It's NOT a good idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In your opinion
I think the Idea of the Alien commander is a good one, in the sense that its like the hive mind is able to work on its own. Lets not forget that the Kharaa are just macro form bacteria.
I think alien commander much like a lot of things in NS2 need tweaking and need to be adjusted or even rehashed, but its part of the game that adds to NS2s fun level.
I think the Idea of the Alien commander is a good one, in the sense that its like the hive mind is able to work on its own. Lets not forget that the Kharaa are just macro form bacteria.
I think alien commander much like a lot of things in NS2 need tweaking and need to be adjusted or even rehashed, but its part of the game that adds to NS2s fun level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There can be no "hive mind" and a "commander" at the same time. Those two things are mutually exclusive to one another. That's not an opinion.
While it's cool that it makes the game more fun for you, it kind of kills it for me. Playing aliens just isn't that fun for me and it's because of the flow of having a comm vs. a hive mind of NS1.
I agree. But they seem to be firm as of cory's post.
While it's cool that it makes the game more fun for you, it kind of kills it for me. Playing aliens just isn't that fun for me and it's because of the flow of having a comm vs. a hive mind of NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, the point people miss about the concept of a hive mind is that they aren't many intelligences and personalities working together, that's just teamwork, they are a single, vast intelligence distributed over many bodies. That's why it's a singular term.
A single alien commander directing many alien structures and AI units fits that infinitely better than the entire alien team running around with their own ideas.
There is a quite important philosophical difference between alien and marine commander playstyles, the alien commander has direct control over everything, he personally builds all his structures with drifters, directs the progression of infestation, and also spends quite a bit of time micromanaging his structures by triggering their abiliites and moving whips around and growing more of them etc.
The marine commander on the other hand relies far more on the marines, marines build faster than macs, the structures don't do much on their own, the marine side focusses on the marines far more than the alien side focusses on the aliens, the alien side is as much the buildings and the infestation as it is the players, whereas the marine commander is really only there to help the marines out.
Essentially, the alien commander plays his own game, and incidentally helps out alien players by providing more spawns and healing and defence and so on, it's all an automatic side effect of spreading across the map. Marine comms on the other hand have to deliberately work with their players and players have to work with their commanders.
For aliens, the commander <i>is</i> the hive mind, and he is essentially another class, for marines, the commander is just the marine in charge.
This also says nothing of the fact that the alien building mechanic works far better now than it ever did in NS1.
The coolest part about NS is the two teams felt very different. Marines have the commander and command structure in place, they get orders from the eye in the sky and then follow them (hopefully). The aliens were a singular organic hive-mind-team that just grows and expands when you let it.
Now it's like the aliens are just melee-only marines that move faster. It's really taking alot of the fun out of the game. Stop being a stubborn ###### and get rid of the alien commander already. It's NOT a good idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I complete agree...
With every evolution of NS2 i think they are moving back towards NS1 which is really good..
I really think UNW should listen to their fans/customers/long term supporters and drop Alien commander the feeling i get is most people don't want it..
I can understand their reluctance not to because its always hard to scrap a feature you have developed but i think it would be for the greater good..
Bring back the focus to the gorge as being the main co-ordinator / builder for aliens.
You can still have team resource model as you do now but just change it so that only gorges can spend team res on units that where built from the hive previously.
I also think change the way the trigger attacks work on crags/whips etc make it so that any aliens can go upto the chamber and hit 'use' to trigger the ability..
This to me feels much more "alien" and organic....
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE guys scrap alien commander :/
With every evolution of NS2 i think they are moving back towards NS1 which is really good..
I really think UNW should listen to their fans/customers/long term supporters and drop Alien commander the feeling i get is most people don't want it..
I can understand their reluctance not to because its always hard to scrap a feature you have developed but i think it would be for the greater good..
Bring back the focus to the gorge as being the main co-ordinator / builder for aliens.
You can still have team resource model as you do now but just change it so that only gorges can spend team res on units that where built from the hive previously.
I also think change the way the trigger attacks work on crags/whips etc make it so that any aliens can go upto the chamber and hit 'use' to trigger the ability..
This to me feels much more "alien" and organic....
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE guys scrap alien commander :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Er, you're disagreeing with him, not agreeing.