One suggestion I would make to "buff" squads and make them preferable is nothing like a hard buff like +armour; instead, my suggestion is to have directions or opponents that your squad members are firing at or have done damage to, <b>display</b> to you - allowing your whole squad to focus fire, or else cover blind spots.
I got to play a little NS2 for a weekend, before I was forced to RMA my video card. I'll say this.
I agree that, through the lag, and missing features, I felt real promise. But as I tried the Commanding for both sides, played as various lifeforms and marines with various goals, I found it was team FPS with comm support, not the feel of NS1.
To be completely honest, I am proud to support UWE, back in constellation, and now in preorder. This game has been THE centerpiece of my gaming world since 2002. When NS2 released, I RACED to install it, only to find I couldn't play it on my system.
I have been dying to get into the game myself. I WANTED so badly to play NS2, I built a new PC for no other reason, and got to play for ONE WEEKEND. Now I'm weeks without it during RMA, and I don't really care I'm missing NS2. And that's heartbreaking.
In reality, the only thing I'm really looking forward to in NS2 is when someone scripts NS Classic mode. NS2 seems hollow in strategy by comparison.
Heck, if the devs would take a few days and tweak NS1's balance to somehow alleviate the marine sided end game, I'll be happy with NS1 for years to come.
EDIT (before it's said): I am well aware of BETA, not feature complete, et al. But the truth is dual commanding, multiple commanders, self res marines; it's not more accessible. It's a painfully slow paced Combat with a commander, or that's the current feeling to me.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2011
Well, you might post that "<i>don't tell me it's BETA</i>" disclaimer there. But the fact is it is an incomplete beta version of the game, meaning it is still missing a LOT of features that will probably add some of that NS feeling back into the game.
We simply don't know what UWE has planned, we can speculate all we want, but even with this out in the open development they have going. There are obviously still things in there which are kinda off hush hush...
To bad you couldn't get you couldn't get more out of it though. Get a vidcard man :P
There are lots of ways you can make a game depend on teamwork, but it mainly depends on the people playing. That being said, you can't just make a game have more teamwork. Although TF2 did it really well.
Just get a mic and com your team. It works the best!
<!--quoteo(post=1839941:date=Apr 5 2011, 04:35 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Apr 5 2011, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, you might post that "<i>don't tell me it's BETA</i>" disclaimer there. But the fact is it is an incomplete beta version of the game, meaning it is still missing a LOT of features that will probably add some of that NS feeling back into the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Given the time/progress ratio we have right now to gauge progress by, it may be.... 1.5 more years before HA and JP or equivalent are out? 3 more years before the game is "feature-complete"? -- complete enough for them to realize the deviations NS1 design were a BAD idea and try to recreate it or wait for a NS1 classic mode hack?
Or are we holding out for a miracle?
You DO understand this at this point, in April 2011, we're 2 months away from being 'middle' rather than the 'early 2011' date they gave in one of their most recent indie-game zine interviews? <a href="http://www.destructoid.com/rts-and-fps-come-together-in-natural-selection-2-192292.phtml" target="_blank">http://www.destructoid.com/rts-and-fps-com...-2-192292.phtml</a>
Do you expect the finished product, which you're constantly shilling for and defending, when it's FINALLY done and you can no longer claim "it's still BETA", is going to be thrilling enough to reclaim the gamers NS2 who've been alienated over the past year? Really?
<!--quoteo(post=1839941:date=Apr 5 2011, 04:35 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Apr 5 2011, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are obviously still things in there which are kinda off hush hush...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
like late BUS system?
Sorry to hear that r4C. But your experience is not unique to you, and those are some harsh truths people need to accept.. NS2's design differences from NS1 are <i>not</i> ones in the right direction. The game is not merely different but decidedly <i>less than</i>.
<!--quoteo(post=1839975:date=Apr 6 2011, 01:06 AM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aleph @ Apr 6 2011, 01:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Given the time/progress ratio we have right now to gauge progress by, it may be.... 1.5 more years before HA and JP or equivalent are out? 3 more years before the game is "feature-complete"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've said it before, but what the heck, I love repeating myself. Trying to judge a release date based on current PERCEIVED progress is a foolish thing to do, especially when you start throwing around ridiculous numbers, like "3 years until the game is feature complete". If you go back 1.5 years and see what existed for the game, you'd realize how far its come in that time. And many of the biggest, most time consuming tasks, were, and are, all under the hood so to speak -- framework that is getting built and reworked to allow for everything to be dropped on top much faster and more easily.
Much of our attention has been focused on fixing some of the most glaring bugs, getting the core gameplay working better, and reworking the Lua structure to allow us to make substantial gains in optimizing the game. But because those aren't as noticeable as adding a big visual gameplay feature in, like jetpacks, there's a perception that we aren't making progress. We could sit down and add in jetpacks tomorrow. All of the art is done and waiting, the programming to get them working is minimal. Those sorts of things tend to be the relatively easy stuff, from a programming standpoint. But we've made it our focus to get the core game running better, faster, and more bug free, before we start adding in the rest of those big ticket items.
<!--quoteo(post=1839987:date=Apr 5 2011, 10:22 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Apr 5 2011, 10:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've said it before, but what the heck, I love repeating myself. Trying to judge a release date based on current PERCEIVED progress is a foolish thing to do, especially when you start throwing around ridiculous numbers, like "3 years until the game is feature complete". If you go back 1.5 years and see what existed for the game, you'd realize how far its come in that time. And many of the biggest, most time consuming tasks, were, and are, all under the hood so to speak -- framework that is getting built and reworked to allow for everything to be dropped on top much faster and more easily.
Much of our attention has been focused on fixing some of the most glaring bugs, getting the core gameplay working better, and reworking the Lua structure to allow us to make substantial gains in optimizing the game. But because those aren't as noticeable as adding a big visual gameplay feature in, like jetpacks, there's a perception that we aren't making progress. We could sit down and add in jetpacks tomorrow. All of the art is done and waiting, the programming to get them working is minimal. Those sorts of things tend to be the relatively easy stuff, from a programming standpoint. But we've made it our focus to get the core game running better, faster, and more bug free, before we start adding in the rest of those big ticket items.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.
But in defense of the "lack of content" arguement, wouldn't implementing the game's last few major features give you at UWE a better sense of game balance? I've been testing this game since it's been available and seen a few features come and go. I find it difficult to believe it's helping bring balance to a game that has missing components.
But in defense of the "lack of content" arguement, wouldn't implementing the game's last few major features give you at UWE a better sense of game balance? I've been testing this game since it's been available and seen a few features come and go. I find it difficult to believe it's helping bring balance to a game that has missing components.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, it would be easier to balance the game with all of the final elements in place. However, many of the missing items are late game features, and we want to make sure the early core game is working well. Even just getting marine vs skulk working involves a lot of tweaking and adjustments to get it feeling balanced and feeling fun, with a lot of issues new to NS2 (like just getting the skulk to wall walk better on the much more detailed surfaces of NS2 environments was a lengthy programming task). Also, it doesn't make much sense to be too concerned with balance at this point, since performance improvements can turn it into a whole new game.
In general, we aren't as concerned with the balance at this stage in the development. Charlie has spent a lot of time thinking about all the features and working out how they are going to fit into the game, when they do get added, not to mention we do have some basis in NS1 to go on. And, often times a large amount of balancing of the game comes about simply through tweaking damage/armor/health/resource cost values, which can be done pretty easily, closer to the end of the project. For balance we would also like to get a more robust stats tracking system in place, because, as much as people on the forums can rage about aliens being too weak, if the stats show that marines are winning 85% of the time, then there is clearly more to the issue.
Obviously, giving such early access to a game in development and having so many people already playing it, means we have to walk a fine line between spending some time to make the game playable and fun, but not getting too caught up with the details and balancing, as we can find ourselves going in circles.
It's not a purpose of its own to design the game in a way that will reattract the old NS1-players. If they decide to come along, good for them. If not, their loss. NS2 has already built a solid fan-base of players who didn't play NS1. You (aleph) seem to be of the opinion that if not every single NS1 player comes along for the ride, NS2 will automaticly fail. That's just not the case. Take a look in the mapping-forums. There are already loads of dedicated fans putting hours of work into making this game even bigger than UWE could possibly find the time to do.
You need to understand that some of us actually don't agree with you. You claim to know the truth and that truth is all you speak. Listen to yourself - its ridiculous! Whether I like a game (girl, house, car or film etc.) or not has absolutely nothing to do with "the truth". I just feel that way. You even told me that I only <i>claim</i> to like the direction of NS2. As if actually <i>feeling</i> that way wasnt possible (since the "truth" is NS2 is heading in the wrong direction). But I actually do <i>feel</i> that way. I'm not saying NS2 is tailored to my preferences in any way. I don't agree with every single decision made by UWE, but I feel things are heading in a good direction. And it's their game to design in any way they want. I just happen to have a lot of faith in the guys since they've already proven to me that they are able to create something that I absolutely love. NS1 wasn't the result of random luck. They knew what they where doing all the way, and they still do. If it turns out that game element X is a problem, i'm pretty sure they will change it. They allowed marines to construct buildings a few builds ago, remember? It was a good decision, and I'm sure they will make more of those in the future. The new tweaks on skulks are amazing, it proves that the designers are very keen to how the game plays. If I wanted a game to fit my preferences 100%, I'd need to grow balls the size of Charlies and start my own company.
LOL, it's like you appeal to the NS1 players for money and once you get the money it doesn't matter what they want, cause "it's a new game." NS2 "has a solid fan-base of players who didn't play NS1." Just: LOL! It's their game to design in any way they want! Clearly they are in no way beholden to the people who pre-paid for a nonexistent product it on good will alone. L.O.L. "If it turns out that game element X is a problem I'm pretty sure they will change it" But that's just the thing. We're beyond simple discrete elements. The "game design" is the big picture, the molecule not the atom. At its current state even tweaking of variables and individual elements wont be enough. It will not be enough. You probably will have a tin ear for the sarcasm in my post and this kind of impenetrable language barrier is exactly why playing with Euros in public servers is so excruciating but that's another topic.
You said you liked the social aspect of NS. I am observing NS2 will have a social environment more similar to that experienced in Combat mode than in Classic because of the direction of the game design. In my OPINION and apparently IN MANY OTHERS IF YOU BOTHER TO READ this direction IS LAME. "Too bad they already got your money it's their game they can do what they want if you want to create your own game then strat your own company" is your brilliant response. I elaborated with an example of how these design differences affect the social atmosphere already and I'm not going to regurgitate it. Others have expressed a similar malaise with NS2; did you read rad4Christ's post? Did you notice how few people are playing the Beta?
This is beyond a tweakable variable X that can be altered. This is a product of the radically different alien/marine symmetry, radically different relationship between commander and his team, radically different relationship between the gorge and the map, and so on. Other significant changes like the static nature of the command chair don't directly affect the social atmosphere but they decrease the dynamism and possibilities that was present in NS1.
You are the perfect medium for my message BitPon. My message is that players will find the NS2 game experience very different. They won't know exactly what the difference is, only that it is unsatisfying.
Believe it or not, games have changed in 8 years. What appeals to some of the forum members may not appeal to the masses. I don't see 25,000 people whining it's unlike NS1, I see a handful.
<!--quoteo(post=1840039:date=Apr 6 2011, 10:44 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Apr 6 2011, 10:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Believe it or not, games have changed in 8 years. What appeals to some of the forum members may not appeal to the masses. I don't see 25,000 people whining it's unlike NS1, I see a handful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's because the "masses" don't care enough to open a forum account and lodge a formal complaint about it. Their dissatisfaction is implicit by the fact that they're not playing the game.
And you think you're going to help by behaving in this way, how?
The development team are doing this as a living, a job, a career. If someone came in to your job and started slating everything you were doing, would you want to help that customer? Honestly, you wouldn't. I'd be wasting my time talking to you any further, although, I'd suggest you think before you rant and rave, as if I were creating a game for other people's enjoyment, I'd certainly want to restrict access from people who clearly don't appreciate the efforts made to entertain.
With that being said, I've always been against the heavier moderation I have seen in some years around here. Although, bring it back, even take it further, it's really annoying seeing people being overly negative and restarting the same topics and conversations in a lot of threads just because they are unhappy, trying to infect others with the same negativity.
<!--quoteo(post=1840041:date=Apr 6 2011, 11:03 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Apr 6 2011, 11:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840041"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And you think you're going to help by behaving in this way, how?
The development team are doing this as a living, a job, a career. If someone came in to your job and started slating everything you were doing, would you want to help that customer? Honestly, you wouldn't. I'd be wasting my time talking to you any further, although, I'd suggest you think before you rant and rave, as if I were creating a game for other people's enjoyment, I'd certainly want to restrict access from people who clearly don't appreciate the efforts made to entertain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol... imagine I was writing a sequel to a popular first novel and I had convinced people to buy it before it was complete by saying "Look how good my first novel was! You know my style so you're sure to love my next!" Suppose a preview of this sequel is given and people find it to be a watered down derivative that exaggerates the dull parts and ignores the satisfying ones of its predecessor... and the fans say as much to the author... Imagine this autorh saying "Too bad, it's just new, I can write the book I want to!"
I'm not slating everything. If business was going poorly and this person had ideas that made sense maybe I would think there's something to what he's saying? Don't bother trying to paint me as aloe in the wilderness here - how many times has it been written that the players are "just going to wait for a NS1 script to be made"? Do you realize that not everyone who has a disagreement is a troll, not everyone who thinks the direction is wrong is behaving unreasonably?
What I'm doing is no more a waste of my or anyone else's time than what you do with your knee-jerk "IT'S STILL A BETA" attack anyone who is dissatisfied with the direction the game is being taken. Both are opinions but one might argue that yours is based on faith and hope mine is based on reality and history.
<!--quoteo(post=1840039:date=Apr 6 2011, 04:44 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Apr 6 2011, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Believe it or not, games have changed in 8 years. What appeals to some of the forum members may not appeal to the masses. I don't see 25,000 people whining it's unlike NS1, I see a handful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The few dozen people (Does anyone have some actual number or a good estimate?) still posting to these forums are in no way a representation of a community. The vast majority of the community is inactive, has moved on or hiberates. Anyone is free to take a guess what they think of NS2 and how many of them are going to reactivate once NS2 gets released.
I think it's going to be a pretty big leap of faith for UWE at some point when they need the community to get back active to fill up the servers and to build up the actual NS2 community infrastructure.
<!--quoteo(post=1840044:date=Apr 6 2011, 11:27 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Apr 6 2011, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's going to be a pretty big leap of faith for UWE at some point when they need the community to get back active to fill up the servers and to build up the actual NS2 community infrastructure.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually brought up this worry a few months ago <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112352" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....howtopic=112352</a>
Cory, I'm not complaining on it being feature complete. The amount of progress from Engine release to current is astounding. I think Max is a genius for what he has done and continues to do. I think Charlie is a great guy with a vision. Your artistic abilities are wonderful, I even appreciated the Zen of Sudoku artwork.
My concerns aren't meant for troll bait, nor as griefing about an unfinished product. It's just the overall direction of NS2, and how it felt now.
I WANT to have faith in UWE, and I do to a point still, but at the same time, the same vision that brought forth NS 1.04 also brought Combat.
I think NS2 needs to be more open and accessible than NS1, sure. I think it is infinitely easier to balance teams with two commanders, so the tech/strategy is similar. Do I think it as fun? Not really. I still play NS1, and still suck at it regarding aim/bhop/etc, but I love the game, even through all the self-important griefers and nonexistant quality communities. I love it because I can play one game, and get three individually unique experiences, Kharaa, TSA, Commanding. I see last ditch lerk rushes on MS causing a win. Or early game shotty rushes. NS2 has one experience, and there's little room for change. You can't relocate. Marines will have multiple CCs in <3 minutes, so base rush doesn't affect anything. Strategy is now stifled and streamlined. Yes, there are basically accepted rulesets in NS1 as to how to win, but you can alter it here, try something there. In NS2, you have to stick to the script.
Yeah, it's still Melee vs ranged. But hive expansion is not even that stressful/rewarding, as I see people building that second hive within seconds. Tech procurement isn't exciting, as I just need to complain I can't buy my own shotgun now, and once I can, who cares about the comm. Commanding isn't fun, because I'm just scouting and support, unlocking abilities for my marines, not much else. And someone else can just jump into another CC and override my strategy or waste resources. Heck, right now I can't tell easily when someone else is in a chair nor what they're doing.
I LOVE gorging. Whether it's laming up a chokepoint, a forward healing station, or focus attack fatty, I love seeing the versatility and usability of this lifeform. In NS2, I build very weak hydras and healspray, which the AC can do through crags...
It's like NS2 systematically removed the specialness of NS1: the completely different tech/play experience of Kharaa/TSA, the interesting roles of marines/aliens in the field, and their co-dependence on one another and dependence on their comm, the interesting new uses for lifeforms and strategies. And they haven't replaced it with anything more than 2 identical play-styles with melee vs ranged. I don't think people understand the immediate disconnect from my commander when I realize I can get whatever weapon I want without him/her dropping it. Or that I don't have to worry about committing to the team by dropping res or a chamber. Heck, I can now be told by a comm where to put my hydras, so it's not even my own incentive to contribute. (yeah, I really miss my gorge)
This is beta/playtest/whatever. May I simply request, once the performance is resolved, and people can play with more reliability, someone simply TRY non-centralized aliens vs commander led marines? Just try it with the NS2 playerbase, and see if the excitement returns? Someone is making a Nancy remake, wouldn't be hard to do.
Power node implementation, and tech point styles could still be worked into the solution. No more dedicated Marine/Alien start. Comm chair's aren't the central tech point structure, so relocations are allowable, BUT a tech generator MUST be nearby to activate. Power nodes aren't game dependant, but can majorly alter how gameplay works, doors, RTs/etc. Make them highly desirable, but not another necessary layer to the game. So much more.
Back before NS1 was released, when skulks were still "Bob", I enjoyed reading Humbaba's playtesting stories so much as I anticipated the game. I've never been a playtester/veteran/cool kid, but I envied what they did. I don't see that same level of enthusiasm, excitement in game, etc, in NS2 as much. Hugh with NS2HD really loves it, and his enthusiasm comes through in the videos, but to me, something is still ... missing.
The guys above might be right, NS2 may not be for NS players. I'd hate to accept that, but if so, then let it be. I don't regret my donations/preorders, you guys have given me years of enjoyment. I really hope for years more, but the more I see, the less that hope is grounded. I'm sorry, this isn't meant to be harsh, but how I feel.
Please don't use it as a way to attack UWE or one another.
And so this doesn't end all negative. I love sprint. Alien sight is AMAZING. I like the whip, Crag, etc visual style. The atmosphere of the game, beautiful and immersive. You guys are creating an amazing game, and the assets are top notch. I just want the playstyle to be as great! I think the current Fade is a step in the right direction in opposition of the NS1 fade. Don't give up, and although I think some major points of the game could/should be at least put on a drawing board, I don't cry doom and gloom.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
You know the 'It's a Beta' response is getting repetitive, but its still very relevant. 90% of the current problems with NS2 will be solved before they release. Also, as Cory's numerous posts indicate, UWE is actively listening and thinking hard about how to address our concerns. You really can't ask for much more from a dev team and they've gone above and beyond what most mainstream studios will do for their players.
I am fully confidant that they will make NS2 a great game in the spirit of NS1, even if they are not exactly the same.
Exactly how is making up arbitrary quotes going to help you prove your point?
You act like NS2 being a failure is some kind of elephant in the room. That anyone who actually has some faith in UWE are ignoring the fact that the game is already doomed? Well, I don't feel that way. No really - I don't.
"The 'game design' is the big picture, the molecule not the atom."
I don't think we got the big picture yet. Things need to be fleshed out, figured out and tweaked before we know how this game really plays. And it's funny that you use molecules as a way of picturing this. Take away or add a single atom and you'll end up with a completely different molecule. But I guess that won't matter to you since you've already decided that the game being in a unfinished state is irrelevant. So I might as well just throw in the towel now since you've already decided that my main argument is invalid. You did this by simply stating it, and by having you do so, it's apparently the truth.
I'm to annoyed by your sophistic manners to keep discussing this now. False quotes, ridiculing and telling others that their opinions are based on faith and hope while yours are based on reality and history. Really?
I'm with Cory - even if every feature in the game went in fully complete in a patch today, I still wouldn't play the game very often because the performance issues make it not all that fun to play. On the other hand, if it ran smoothly I would still have fun just playing a game of Skulks vs. Marines. Adding tons of unpolished new features just adds more unknown factors that could complicate the optimization process.
<!--quoteo(post=1839993:date=Apr 6 2011, 12:44 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Apr 6 2011, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839993"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, it would be easier to balance the game with all of the final elements in place. However, many of the missing items are late game features, and we want to make sure the early core game is working well. Even just getting marine vs skulk working involves a lot of tweaking and adjustments to get it feeling balanced and feeling fun, with a lot of issues new to NS2 (like just getting the skulk to wall walk better on the much more detailed surfaces of NS2 environments was a lengthy programming task). Also, it doesn't make much sense to be too concerned with balance at this point, since performance improvements can turn it into a whole new game.
In general, we aren't as concerned with the balance at this stage in the development. Charlie has spent a lot of time thinking about all the features and working out how they are going to fit into the game, when they do get added, not to mention we do have some basis in NS1 to go on. And, often times a large amount of balancing of the game comes about simply through tweaking damage/armor/health/resource cost values, which can be done pretty easily, closer to the end of the project. For balance we would also like to get a more robust stats tracking system in place, because, as much as people on the forums can rage about aliens being too weak, if the stats show that marines are winning 85% of the time, then there is clearly more to the issue.
Obviously, giving such early access to a game in development and having so many people already playing it, means we have to walk a fine line between spending some time to make the game playable and fun, but not getting too caught up with the details and balancing, as we can find ourselves going in circles.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I appreciate the timely and detailed response. The only reason I bring up balance is because I've seen many posts from both the development team and the community about it. I feel like it's wasted effort to try to balance a game with missing features, even if these features are meant for late game.
One example I can use to make my point clear is the flamethrower. At one point the flamethrower was the main topic of dicussion. It was tweaked and tweaked, then tweaked again. Now it's "balanced"... until one of the next major features gets thrown in and it needs to be tweaked yet again. My assumption is that the flamethrowed was turned into a cigarette lighter at this point so it's not a game ender with the current implemented features... atleast I hope so because I'm not finding it very fun to play with as it is.
Don't take my comments as negative feedback, I fully understand that the game development process is a daunting one to say the least. I was just curious as to what was topping the priority list at UWE.
<!--quoteo(post=1840062:date=Apr 6 2011, 06:56 PM:name=Dank McShwagger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dank McShwagger @ Apr 6 2011, 06:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1840062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One example I can use to make my point clear is the flamethrower. At one point the flamethrower was the main topic of dicussion. It was tweaked and tweaked, then tweaked again. Now it's "balanced"... until one of the next major features gets thrown in and it needs to be tweaked yet again. My assumption is that the flamethrowed was turned into a cigarette lighter at this point so it's not a game ender with the current implemented features... atleast I hope so because I'm not finding it very fun to play with as it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yup, the flamethrower is a good example of that fine line we have to walk at the moment, between making some slight balance adjustments to keep the game playable, but not spend too much time with them. The Flamethrower was added into the game before DI, so the main purpose for its use hadn't existed yet. The programming for giving the flames some lag, and for flames shooting through walls is also still being worked on at the moment. So, due to the flamethrowers being huge flaming lightsabers of death, and making everyone's alien playing experience miserable (including ours) we made some quick and relatively easy adjustments to damage, range, etc, numbers and to the "On Fire" effects to help with the visibility issues. The Flamethrower should by no means be considered final, and will get a much better balance pass to make it fun, useful and not too overpowered, when the rest of the game is in place.
Honestly, I do find some of the game-play right now off sure, and I hold no final opinion of it at it's current unfinished state, but even if it went gallivanting off in what I'd feel is the wrong direction once it's more fleshed out. I can pretty much count on the moddability and the community to pop out an "NS Classic" in no time at all really... or maybe some other modes such as a personal fav of mine: Siege (really loved playing Khraa in that).
So on that note I really do appreciate the apparent high moddability this game's engine seems to allows really, as I'm a large supporter of it in games in general. That alone makes me feel secure in my donation/purchase being well worth contributing beyond my original admiration of your team's previous work and willingness to support it.
Comments
One suggestion I would make to "buff" squads and make them preferable is nothing like a hard buff like +armour; instead, my suggestion is to have directions or opponents that your squad members are firing at or have done damage to, <b>display</b> to you - allowing your whole squad to focus fire, or else cover blind spots.
The "IT'S A BETA" "GIVE IT TIME" mantra has worn thin.
This post is as relevant as ever <b>AND IT'S BEEN NEARLY A FULL YEAR SINCE IT WAS WRITTEN.</b>
LET THAT SINK IN.
New meme!
I agree that, through the lag, and missing features, I felt real promise. But as I tried the Commanding for both sides, played as various lifeforms and marines with various goals, I found it was team FPS with comm support, not the feel of NS1.
To be completely honest, I am proud to support UWE, back in constellation, and now in preorder. This game has been THE centerpiece of my gaming world since 2002. When NS2 released, I RACED to install it, only to find I couldn't play it on my system.
I have been dying to get into the game myself. I WANTED so badly to play NS2, I built a new PC for no other reason, and got to play for ONE WEEKEND. Now I'm weeks without it during RMA, and I don't really care I'm missing NS2. And that's heartbreaking.
In reality, the only thing I'm really looking forward to in NS2 is when someone scripts NS Classic mode. NS2 seems hollow in strategy by comparison.
Heck, if the devs would take a few days and tweak NS1's balance to somehow alleviate the marine sided end game, I'll be happy with NS1 for years to come.
EDIT (before it's said): I am well aware of BETA, not feature complete, et al. But the truth is dual commanding, multiple commanders, self res marines; it's not more accessible. It's a painfully slow paced Combat with a commander, or that's the current feeling to me.
We simply don't know what UWE has planned, we can speculate all we want, but even with this out in the open development they have going. There are obviously still things in there which are kinda off hush hush...
To bad you couldn't get you couldn't get more out of it though. Get a vidcard man :P
Just get a mic and com your team. It works the best!
Given the time/progress ratio we have right now to gauge progress by, it may be.... 1.5 more years before HA and JP or equivalent are out? 3 more years before the game is "feature-complete"? -- complete enough for them to realize the deviations NS1 design were a BAD idea and try to recreate it or wait for a NS1 classic mode hack?
Or are we holding out for a miracle?
You DO understand this at this point, in April 2011, we're 2 months away from being 'middle' rather than the 'early 2011' date they gave in one of their most recent indie-game zine interviews? <a href="http://www.destructoid.com/rts-and-fps-come-together-in-natural-selection-2-192292.phtml" target="_blank">http://www.destructoid.com/rts-and-fps-com...-2-192292.phtml</a>
Do you expect the finished product, which you're constantly shilling for and defending, when it's FINALLY done and you can no longer claim "it's still BETA", is going to be thrilling enough to reclaim the gamers NS2 who've been alienated over the past year? Really?
<!--quoteo(post=1839941:date=Apr 5 2011, 04:35 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Apr 5 2011, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1839941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are obviously still things in there which are kinda off hush hush...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
like late BUS system?
Sorry to hear that r4C. But your experience is not unique to you, and those are some harsh truths people need to accept.. NS2's design differences from NS1 are <i>not</i> ones in the right direction. The game is not merely different but decidedly <i>less than</i>.
I've said it before, but what the heck, I love repeating myself. Trying to judge a release date based on current PERCEIVED progress is a foolish thing to do, especially when you start throwing around ridiculous numbers, like "3 years until the game is feature complete". If you go back 1.5 years and see what existed for the game, you'd realize how far its come in that time. And many of the biggest, most time consuming tasks, were, and are, all under the hood so to speak -- framework that is getting built and reworked to allow for everything to be dropped on top much faster and more easily.
Much of our attention has been focused on fixing some of the most glaring bugs, getting the core gameplay working better, and reworking the Lua structure to allow us to make substantial gains in optimizing the game. But because those aren't as noticeable as adding a big visual gameplay feature in, like jetpacks, there's a perception that we aren't making progress. We could sit down and add in jetpacks tomorrow. All of the art is done and waiting, the programming to get them working is minimal. Those sorts of things tend to be the relatively easy stuff, from a programming standpoint. But we've made it our focus to get the core game running better, faster, and more bug free, before we start adding in the rest of those big ticket items.
--Cory
Much of our attention has been focused on fixing some of the most glaring bugs, getting the core gameplay working better, and reworking the Lua structure to allow us to make substantial gains in optimizing the game. But because those aren't as noticeable as adding a big visual gameplay feature in, like jetpacks, there's a perception that we aren't making progress. We could sit down and add in jetpacks tomorrow. All of the art is done and waiting, the programming to get them working is minimal. Those sorts of things tend to be the relatively easy stuff, from a programming standpoint. But we've made it our focus to get the core game running better, faster, and more bug free, before we start adding in the rest of those big ticket items.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.
But in defense of the "lack of content" arguement, wouldn't implementing the game's last few major features give you at UWE a better sense of game balance? I've been testing this game since it's been available and seen a few features come and go. I find it difficult to believe it's helping bring balance to a game that has missing components.
But in defense of the "lack of content" arguement, wouldn't implementing the game's last few major features give you at UWE a better sense of game balance? I've been testing this game since it's been available and seen a few features come and go. I find it difficult to believe it's helping bring balance to a game that has missing components.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it would be easier to balance the game with all of the final elements in place. However, many of the missing items are late game features, and we want to make sure the early core game is working well. Even just getting marine vs skulk working involves a lot of tweaking and adjustments to get it feeling balanced and feeling fun, with a lot of issues new to NS2 (like just getting the skulk to wall walk better on the much more detailed surfaces of NS2 environments was a lengthy programming task). Also, it doesn't make much sense to be too concerned with balance at this point, since performance improvements can turn it into a whole new game.
In general, we aren't as concerned with the balance at this stage in the development. Charlie has spent a lot of time thinking about all the features and working out how they are going to fit into the game, when they do get added, not to mention we do have some basis in NS1 to go on. And, often times a large amount of balancing of the game comes about simply through tweaking damage/armor/health/resource cost values, which can be done pretty easily, closer to the end of the project. For balance we would also like to get a more robust stats tracking system in place, because, as much as people on the forums can rage about aliens being too weak, if the stats show that marines are winning 85% of the time, then there is clearly more to the issue.
Obviously, giving such early access to a game in development and having so many people already playing it, means we have to walk a fine line between spending some time to make the game playable and fun, but not getting too caught up with the details and balancing, as we can find ourselves going in circles.
--Cory
You need to understand that some of us actually don't agree with you. You claim to know the truth and that truth is all you speak. Listen to yourself - its ridiculous! Whether I like a game (girl, house, car or film etc.) or not has absolutely nothing to do with "the truth". I just feel that way. You even told me that I only <i>claim</i> to like the direction of NS2. As if actually <i>feeling</i> that way wasnt possible (since the "truth" is NS2 is heading in the wrong direction). But I actually do <i>feel</i> that way. I'm not saying NS2 is tailored to my preferences in any way. I don't agree with every single decision made by UWE, but I feel things are heading in a good direction. And it's their game to design in any way they want. I just happen to have a lot of faith in the guys since they've already proven to me that they are able to create something that I absolutely love. NS1 wasn't the result of random luck. They knew what they where doing all the way, and they still do. If it turns out that game element X is a problem, i'm pretty sure they will change it. They allowed marines to construct buildings a few builds ago, remember? It was a good decision, and I'm sure they will make more of those in the future. The new tweaks on skulks are amazing, it proves that the designers are very keen to how the game plays. If I wanted a game to fit my preferences 100%, I'd need to grow balls the size of Charlies and start my own company.
You said you liked the social aspect of NS. I am observing NS2 will have a social environment more similar to that experienced in Combat mode than in Classic because of the direction of the game design. In my OPINION and apparently IN MANY OTHERS IF YOU BOTHER TO READ this direction IS LAME. "Too bad they already got your money it's their game they can do what they want if you want to create your own game then strat your own company" is your brilliant response. I elaborated with an example of how these design differences affect the social atmosphere already and I'm not going to regurgitate it. Others have expressed a similar malaise with NS2; did you read rad4Christ's post? Did you notice how few people are playing the Beta?
This is beyond a tweakable variable X that can be altered. This is a product of the radically different alien/marine symmetry, radically different relationship between commander and his team, radically different relationship between the gorge and the map, and so on. Other significant changes like the static nature of the command chair don't directly affect the social atmosphere but they decrease the dynamism and possibilities that was present in NS1.
You are the perfect medium for my message BitPon. My message is that players will find the NS2 game experience very different. They won't know exactly what the difference is, only that it is unsatisfying.
That's because the "masses" don't care enough to open a forum account and lodge a formal complaint about it. Their dissatisfaction is implicit by the fact that they're not playing the game.
The development team are doing this as a living, a job, a career. If someone came in to your job and started slating everything you were doing, would you want to help that customer? Honestly, you wouldn't. I'd be wasting my time talking to you any further, although, I'd suggest you think before you rant and rave, as if I were creating a game for other people's enjoyment, I'd certainly want to restrict access from people who clearly don't appreciate the efforts made to entertain.
With that being said, I've always been against the heavier moderation I have seen in some years around here. Although, bring it back, even take it further, it's really annoying seeing people being overly negative and restarting the same topics and conversations in a lot of threads just because they are unhappy, trying to infect others with the same negativity.
The development team are doing this as a living, a job, a career. If someone came in to your job and started slating everything you were doing, would you want to help that customer? Honestly, you wouldn't. I'd be wasting my time talking to you any further, although, I'd suggest you think before you rant and rave, as if I were creating a game for other people's enjoyment, I'd certainly want to restrict access from people who clearly don't appreciate the efforts made to entertain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol... imagine I was writing a sequel to a popular first novel and I had convinced people to buy it before it was complete by saying "Look how good my first novel was! You know my style so you're sure to love my next!" Suppose a preview of this sequel is given and people find it to be a watered down derivative that exaggerates the dull parts and ignores the satisfying ones of its predecessor... and the fans say as much to the author... Imagine this autorh saying "Too bad, it's just new, I can write the book I want to!"
I'm not slating everything. If business was going poorly and this person had ideas that made sense maybe I would think there's something to what he's saying? Don't bother trying to paint me as aloe in the wilderness here - how many times has it been written that the players are "just going to wait for a NS1 script to be made"? Do you realize that not everyone who has a disagreement is a
troll, not everyone who thinks the direction is wrong is behaving unreasonably?
What I'm doing is no more a waste of my or anyone else's time than what you do with your knee-jerk "IT'S STILL A BETA" attack anyone who is dissatisfied with the direction the game is being taken. Both are opinions but one might argue that yours is based on faith and hope mine is based on reality and history.
The few dozen people (Does anyone have some actual number or a good estimate?) still posting to these forums are in no way a representation of a community. The vast majority of the community is inactive, has moved on or hiberates. Anyone is free to take a guess what they think of NS2 and how many of them are going to reactivate once NS2 gets released.
I think it's going to be a pretty big leap of faith for UWE at some point when they need the community to get back active to fill up the servers and to build up the actual NS2 community infrastructure.
I actually brought up this worry a few months ago
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=112352" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....howtopic=112352</a>
My concerns aren't meant for troll bait, nor as griefing about an unfinished product. It's just the overall direction of NS2, and how it felt now.
I WANT to have faith in UWE, and I do to a point still, but at the same time, the same vision that brought forth NS 1.04 also brought Combat.
I think NS2 needs to be more open and accessible than NS1, sure. I think it is infinitely easier to balance teams with two commanders, so the tech/strategy is similar. Do I think it as fun? Not really. I still play NS1, and still suck at it regarding aim/bhop/etc, but I love the game, even through all the self-important griefers and nonexistant quality communities. I love it because I can play one game, and get three individually unique experiences, Kharaa, TSA, Commanding. I see last ditch lerk rushes on MS causing a win. Or early game shotty rushes. NS2 has one experience, and there's little room for change. You can't relocate. Marines will have multiple CCs in <3 minutes, so base rush doesn't affect anything. Strategy is now stifled and streamlined. Yes, there are basically accepted rulesets in NS1 as to how to win, but you can alter it here, try something there. In NS2, you have to stick to the script.
Yeah, it's still Melee vs ranged. But hive expansion is not even that stressful/rewarding, as I see people building that second hive within seconds. Tech procurement isn't exciting, as I just need to complain I can't buy my own shotgun now, and once I can, who cares about the comm. Commanding isn't fun, because I'm just scouting and support, unlocking abilities for my marines, not much else. And someone else can just jump into another CC and override my strategy or waste resources. Heck, right now I can't tell easily when someone else is in a chair nor what they're doing.
I LOVE gorging. Whether it's laming up a chokepoint, a forward healing station, or focus attack fatty, I love seeing the versatility and usability of this lifeform. In NS2, I build very weak hydras and healspray, which the AC can do through crags...
It's like NS2 systematically removed the specialness of NS1: the completely different tech/play experience of Kharaa/TSA, the interesting roles of marines/aliens in the field, and their co-dependence on one another and dependence on their comm, the interesting new uses for lifeforms and strategies. And they haven't replaced it with anything more than 2 identical play-styles with melee vs ranged. I don't think people understand the immediate disconnect from my commander when I realize I can get whatever weapon I want without him/her dropping it. Or that I don't have to worry about committing to the team by dropping res or a chamber. Heck, I can now be told by a comm where to put my hydras, so it's not even my own incentive to contribute. (yeah, I really miss my gorge)
This is beta/playtest/whatever. May I simply request, once the performance is resolved, and people can play with more reliability, someone simply TRY non-centralized aliens vs commander led marines? Just try it with the NS2 playerbase, and see if the excitement returns? Someone is making a Nancy remake, wouldn't be hard to do.
Power node implementation, and tech point styles could still be worked into the solution. No more dedicated Marine/Alien start. Comm chair's aren't the central tech point structure, so relocations are allowable, BUT a tech generator MUST be nearby to activate. Power nodes aren't game dependant, but can majorly alter how gameplay works, doors, RTs/etc. Make them highly desirable, but not another necessary layer to the game. So much more.
Back before NS1 was released, when skulks were still "Bob", I enjoyed reading Humbaba's playtesting stories so much as I anticipated the game. I've never been a playtester/veteran/cool kid, but I envied what they did. I don't see that same level of enthusiasm, excitement in game, etc, in NS2 as much. Hugh with NS2HD really loves it, and his enthusiasm comes through in the videos, but to me, something is still ... missing.
The guys above might be right, NS2 may not be for NS players. I'd hate to accept that, but if so, then let it be. I don't regret my donations/preorders, you guys have given me years of enjoyment. I really hope for years more, but the more I see, the less that hope is grounded. I'm sorry, this isn't meant to be harsh, but how I feel.
Please don't use it as a way to attack UWE or one another.
And so this doesn't end all negative. I love sprint. Alien sight is AMAZING. I like the whip, Crag, etc visual style. The atmosphere of the game, beautiful and immersive. You guys are creating an amazing game, and the assets are top notch. I just want the playstyle to be as great! I think the current Fade is a step in the right direction in opposition of the NS1 fade. Don't give up, and although I think some major points of the game could/should be at least put on a drawing board, I don't cry doom and gloom.
I am fully confidant that they will make NS2 a great game in the spirit of NS1, even if they are not exactly the same.
You act like NS2 being a failure is some kind of elephant in the room. That anyone who actually has some faith in UWE are ignoring the fact that the game is already doomed? Well, I don't feel that way. No really - I don't.
"The 'game design' is the big picture, the molecule not the atom."
I don't think we got the big picture yet. Things need to be fleshed out, figured out and tweaked before we know how this game really plays. And it's funny that you use molecules as a way of picturing this. Take away or add a single atom and you'll end up with a completely different molecule. But I guess that won't matter to you since you've already decided that the game being in a unfinished state is irrelevant. So I might as well just throw in the towel now since you've already decided that my main argument is invalid. You did this by simply stating it, and by having you do so, it's apparently the truth.
I'm to annoyed by your sophistic manners to keep discussing this now. False quotes, ridiculing and telling others that their opinions are based on faith and hope while yours are based on reality and history. Really?
In general, we aren't as concerned with the balance at this stage in the development. Charlie has spent a lot of time thinking about all the features and working out how they are going to fit into the game, when they do get added, not to mention we do have some basis in NS1 to go on. And, often times a large amount of balancing of the game comes about simply through tweaking damage/armor/health/resource cost values, which can be done pretty easily, closer to the end of the project. For balance we would also like to get a more robust stats tracking system in place, because, as much as people on the forums can rage about aliens being too weak, if the stats show that marines are winning 85% of the time, then there is clearly more to the issue.
Obviously, giving such early access to a game in development and having so many people already playing it, means we have to walk a fine line between spending some time to make the game playable and fun, but not getting too caught up with the details and balancing, as we can find ourselves going in circles.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I appreciate the timely and detailed response. The only reason I bring up balance is because I've seen many posts from both the development team and the community about it. I feel like it's wasted effort to try to balance a game with missing features, even if these features are meant for late game.
One example I can use to make my point clear is the flamethrower. At one point the flamethrower was the main topic of dicussion. It was tweaked and tweaked, then tweaked again. Now it's "balanced"... until one of the next major features gets thrown in and it needs to be tweaked yet again. My assumption is that the flamethrowed was turned into a cigarette lighter at this point so it's not a game ender with the current implemented features... atleast I hope so because I'm not finding it very fun to play with as it is.
Don't take my comments as negative feedback, I fully understand that the game development process is a daunting one to say the least. I was just curious as to what was topping the priority list at UWE.
Yup, the flamethrower is a good example of that fine line we have to walk at the moment, between making some slight balance adjustments to keep the game playable, but not spend too much time with them. The Flamethrower was added into the game before DI, so the main purpose for its use hadn't existed yet. The programming for giving the flames some lag, and for flames shooting through walls is also still being worked on at the moment. So, due to the flamethrowers being huge flaming lightsabers of death, and making everyone's alien playing experience miserable (including ours) we made some quick and relatively easy adjustments to damage, range, etc, numbers and to the "On Fire" effects to help with the visibility issues. The Flamethrower should by no means be considered final, and will get a much better balance pass to make it fun, useful and not too overpowered, when the rest of the game is in place.
--Cory
So on that note I really do appreciate the apparent high moddability this game's engine seems to allows really, as I'm a large supporter of it in games in general. That alone makes me feel secure in my donation/purchase being well worth contributing beyond my original admiration of your team's previous work and willingness to support it.
Take that how you will.