Skulkview while attached to wall
Shilorius
Join Date: 2011-01-14 Member: 77445Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2011-01-14 Member: 77445Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">alternative to slightly tilting view model for Skulk while on wall</div>I found this in the Pivotal Tracker.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Try slightly tilting view model for Skulk while attached to a wall<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this doesn't work, I have an other Idea.
Don't tilt the view itself. Rather rotate the teeth of the skulk so that the tounge is always align to the wall or ceiling you are currently walking on.
Here are some examples:
<img src="http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1259/skulkrotate1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/1008/skulkrotate2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Left side shows what I mean, right side is to show skulks current position.
I know constandly rotating teeth might be confusing but on the other hand you don't get fully confused because your whole view doesn't turn around and you have a nice indicator (the tounge) on which surface you are currently walking.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Try slightly tilting view model for Skulk while attached to a wall<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this doesn't work, I have an other Idea.
Don't tilt the view itself. Rather rotate the teeth of the skulk so that the tounge is always align to the wall or ceiling you are currently walking on.
Here are some examples:
<img src="http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1259/skulkrotate1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/1008/skulkrotate2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Left side shows what I mean, right side is to show skulks current position.
I know constandly rotating teeth might be confusing but on the other hand you don't get fully confused because your whole view doesn't turn around and you have a nice indicator (the tounge) on which surface you are currently walking.
Comments
but i would prefer a 20-degree-teeth-tilt above the 90-degree one.
it would certainly help get to know how your long body aligns itself. it was a pretty important factor in NS1 either or not you stick out of that corner or not.
but I think gameplay elements and features are more important.
When you're on the ground, regardless of the direction you're facing, A and D strafe across the plane you're attached to.
When you're on a wall, if you're facing up or down, A and D strafe across the plane you're attached to.
When you're on a wall, if you're facing left or right, A and D will move either away from the wall or into the wall.
You're losing a large degree of control when walking ACROSS a wall. Clearly these are inconsistent controls. However when you experience this in game it does not feel counter-intuitive or unexpected because the player view (and the UI) never rolls with the world model. But in it's current implementation, this isn't wall-walking, this is wall-sticking.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nqKcuFUe_c&NR=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nqKcuFUe_c&NR=1</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nqKcuFUe_c&NR=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nqKcuFUe_c&NR=1</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OOh, I really like that.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/J6JtH2Gg7EA"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/J6JtH2Gg7EA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Here's a clip of Ballmen. Obviously the graphics are very simple, but that's by design. Anyway, in this, the view rotation is actually very, very smooth.
The thing with this though, is that because the gravity switches - and the levels are designed in full 3D for this possibility - you never need to know which direction is "up" as you do in NS - because any of the six directions could be up. They effectively circumvent that issue by virtue of the game's design.
In NS this could be solved by obvious level visual design - i.e. the floor looks completely different to the walls which all look completely different to the ceiling. And/or a graphical indicator for gravity as suggested by Runteh, which would be pretty cool - it would be I imagine something like a crosshair in the middle of the screen, and could be paired with the onDamage indicator. Just to fluff it up a bit, it would be a visual representation of the sense of balance resulting from an animal's inner ear.
Motion over small obstacles should be made somehow as smooth as possible, the view and movement effectively ignoring the obstacles, simulating movement in the real world. Basically, <b>keep the head steady.</b> Only very large tilts (i.e. 90 degrees) should result in view tilting. I imagine it would be tackled the same way that they tackle stairs.
Possibly one way would be to have the view tilt lag behind the body tilt slightly, with a minimum threshold to tilt at all, and check before committing to a view tilt, possibly take some sort of average, and keep any tilting very smooth... So if you were moving over rough terrain, even though your body would be tilting a lot, your view would be rather steady.
Edit: Wall-to-wall jumping may be difficult.
ever played Tremolous? its alike NS in allot of ways, and has view tilting.
its horrible. I always get headaches playing as an alien.
keep it the way it is. and to be frank, it isn't really a problem, hell, even an indicator is obsolete really.
That is certainly true in all cases, including the current implementation, so definitely not a valid reason to dismiss it.
You're "hindered to fight well" in the current implementation, just not in the same way you are by tilting the view. The way it is now, you have the worst mobility while on a wall, slightly better when on the ceiling, and best when on the ground (read above post for more info). This is nearly opposite of what the games mechanics should be encouraging for skulks. Maneuverability should only be dependent on the terrain, not the inconsistency of the controls and views.
At least through tilting the view, the control scheme remains consistent in all situations and the only hindrance is keeping track of where gravity is going to send you if you don't latch on to something (an issue that could be fixed with some sort of gravity compass on the UI, as mentioned above).
Tremulous and AvP are examples of how not to implement this feature: Can we all agree on this and move on? Beating a dead horse does provide a valid point to your stance.
Not suggesting we should have 3rd person view - I love the bitecam, just saying it'd solve the problem.
1. you can't properly see if you can attach your attack to the enemy
2. you view can be obstructed by other players if its real 3rd person (shoulder cam might not be that severe)
I wouldn't like it at all.
Not suggesting we should have 3rd person view - I love the bitecam, just saying it'd solve the problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As usual, I tend to agree. A very close 3rd person view seems like it might have the best success. A shoulder-cam, like RobB is saying (although I dunno what he means by the rest of his post).
but i would prefer a 20-degree-teeth-tilt above the 90-degree one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah this is a good idea, if you were on a wall your head would probably be tilted, why not slightly tilt it off center when dealing with being on a wall.
So change the model that instead of them looking exactly like they are on the floor, slightly tilt their head off center, kinda like the tilt that puppies do, which make them look so cute. And then it not only looks realistic but not confusing too. As for walking on ceiling, I reckon remove that, have you seen their feet, it doesn't look realistic for them to keep them selves up upside down, though if implementing it stays turn the whole view should be upside down too, which does discourage using it but doesn't restrict people.
1. you can't properly see if you can attach your attack to the enemy
2. you view can be obstructed by other players if its real 3rd person (shoulder cam might not be that severe)
I wouldn't like it at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. On the contrary, you'll be able to more easily judge distance to target.
2. I don't understand the distinction. I mean I'm definitely not talking some kind of automatic camera like zelda or something, so I'm not even considering that.
+1 for twiliteblue's liquid horizon.
2. I don't understand the distinction. I mean I'm definitely not talking some kind of automatic camera like zelda or something, so I'm not even considering that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. dunno. i sometimes have trouble judging distances on 2d planes trying to display artificial 3d (monitor).
2. i meant that if a marine gets between you and the view of your camera you can even less judge if attacks latch on.
2.b also, what about ventilation shafts? i sure as hell don't want the camera stucking in there and even less clipping through their roof (spying around corners would be too easy).
2.c setting the camera on the shoulder / piggyback would work i think
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 for twiliteblue's liquid horizon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
How about changing the bitecam?
imagine how a crocodile or aligator would see the top of it's own maw if it's eyes where aligned like human's and add the safety reflex of a shark (basically closing eyes when biting to prevent damage to the visual sensory organs).
would actually make more sense than looking a marine in the eye before it goes down to the digestion systems anyway.
Having the view model spin round my screen is just going to look like i'm in some sort of teeth based washing machine.
It's like we stepped into some sort of... teeth-based washing machine...
I'm liking view rotation with gravity indicators.
I'm liking view rotation with gravity indicators.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. The bitecam is a fun representation of the Skulk's weapon, Bite. Without it, timing the bite attack would be difficult.
There are some minor tweaks that could help playing as Skulk more enjoyable.
<b>TAPETRVE</b> made a great suggestion for adding more visual feedback for Bite range. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112762" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=112762</a>
I this view would work quite well:
<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/cache/thumbnails/NS2_skulk_vent_800x500.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Everyone makes a big deal about skill this and that; what, mastering the view rotation isn't a skill? Dumb it down to stationary camera because some motion-sick old men want to play? Take some Dramamine and shut up.
Look at the world AVP/2 presents, and look at the world NS/2 presents.
The difference: Walls have stuff sticking out in NS/2, which would let the view bob around in sharp angles that EVERYONE would get sick.
Okay, we are in an early enough state to be able to incorporate AvP/2's invisible overlays for the aliens, but do we really want that?
it forces mappers to cut back on pipes and stuff sticking out after all, or they have to cover everything with invisible walls that could let skulks float in mid air if done wrong...
And really learning a skill just to do basic wall walking is not fun when we rely so heavily on it. And in general I hate my view shifting around, which makes Fading annoyingly ouchy for me in NS2.
Still, I'm just one fart. I've always said if it goes in, add a toggle switch for it.
At least in that case there would be a skill to learn that would allow you to walk normally. There currently is not. You cannot "learn" to maneuver as effectively on a wall as you do on the floor, because the controls (that are dependent on the camera view) do not allow for it.