No it doesn't as you didn't make any point - just spouted the same pointless bull###### that has been brought up time and again, and has been directly addressed by members of the development team. They know we're having performance issues, and Max is working on that as his number one priority. The other coders can either sit around and wait for that to be done whilst doing nothing - or continue to add to the game as it in no way affects what Max is doing. Which of those options makes more sense to you?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Trust me, Max is as frustrated as any of you. The poor performance eats away at him every day, and he is working hard to improve server lag and framerate. The new features and prototyping you see are coming mostly from Charlie's end (such as the DI at the moment) so its not taking time away from Max's optimizations.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you still insist you know what they should be doing differently why not write it all down and email it to them?
Im wondering if the memory leak that im seeing in the client is related to the lag. (550M on load, 1200M on map load, crawling up to 1900M before it crashes).
From what I recall from my OS classes, system heap memory allocation can be mighty painful (as can running malloc on a fragmented memory of little bits of free memory, thus the usual c 'joy' of preallocation things in presized arrays and doing your own memory management ;)).
Could that be contributing to the slowdown?
I guess you'd expected to see a drastic cpu spike and slow down of fps if malloc/free was eating system time, doing memory tricks. Memory seems to go up at a somewhat linear rate, so I guess you'd expect to see fps drop at a similar rate if the memory allocation was taking the time.
I was just thinking that it couldnt hurt to consider looking at that too, incase its related. ;-) (all hail the blessed power of 'valgrind' or whatever the windows equivalent is).
Either that or lets get started on the linux server to start a second path of bug/leak detection. ;-)
lots of <3 to unknown worlds
(The game is soooo close to being playable, I can almost taste it... stop taunting me, UWE. Still i guess i should get some work done before it becomes playable and i lose all human contact ;-)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(man we should add motion blur in game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, motion blur sux, it is the typical gimmick that first seems nice, but is in fact avoiding you to aim well... seeing things blury never helps, trust me, I wear glasses.
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1831494:date=Feb 11 2011, 03:15 PM:name=Deagle2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deagle2 @ Feb 11 2011, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, motion blur sux, it is the typical gimmick that first seems nice, but is in fact avoiding you to aim well... seeing things blury never helps, trust me, I wear glasses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1. Leave that sort of post processing junk to the guys making the videos, some of us want to play the game and not just watch it!
<!--quoteo(post=1831451:date=Feb 11 2011, 10:03 AM:name=slayer.faith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (slayer.faith @ Feb 11 2011, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From what I recall from my OS classes, system heap memory allocation can be mighty painful (as can running malloc on a fragmented memory of little bits of free memory, thus the usual c 'joy' of preallocation things in presized arrays and doing your own memory management ;)).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
........
No, memory leaks are perfectly fine to have in servers. You just need infinite memory. Why doesn't your server have infinite memory?
<!--quoteo(post=1831494:date=Feb 11 2011, 09:15 PM:name=Deagle2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deagle2 @ Feb 11 2011, 09:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, motion blur sux, it is the typical gimmick that first seems nice, but is in fact avoiding you to aim well... seeing things blury never helps, trust me, I wear glasses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> -1
I want motion blur. Reducing the (possible) graphics quality just to be an uber-pr0-skillz0r gam0r isn't my style :P. I never had any respect for people who disabled their view models or increased the gamma just to "be better". Too much motion blur can indeed be ... well too much. But as long as it is somewhat subtle i'm absolutely ok with it.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1831519:date=Feb 11 2011, 01:13 PM:name=Zeno)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeno @ Feb 11 2011, 01:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never had any respect for people who disabled their view models or increased the gamma just to "be better".
yes i'm a graphics ###### :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-1 to you good sir. this is not a single player game running DX11. this is a competitive multiplayer game. In your same argument you simultaneously recognize that you dont like competitive exploits for multiplayer games and also suggest a resource intensive, aiming inhibiting visual post processing gimmick reserved for single player games only?? what kind of game do you think NS2 is? :)
(i will agree though, source engine does a VERY cheap and subtle job of this but i cant recall it ever in multi? metro 2033 is a great example of why one WOULDNT want blur. extremely demanding and severely limits reaction time with aiming.)
I like the blur in CoD where it looks like your eyes focus the way they would in real life. If you are looking at something up close the background will blur slightly and vice versa. That is the only blur I could see as being reasonable but even then blur effects can be a bit costly performance wise so should at least be possible to turn off.
AFAIK, to properly blend frames together, you have to delay the primary frame by one. (unless you do trailing frames; that looks worse and still has an impact on performance) That always results in perceived input latency, which is horrible when cumulative input latency gets too high. In a low performing game, the effect is even worse. But by all means, turn it on. I love when the competition purposefully hobbles themselves. Heh. ;)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the blur in CoD where it looks like your eyes focus the way they would in real life. If you are looking at something up close the background will blur slightly and vice versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's depth of field, which is different. It works best in cutscenes. In games it can't predict where you're looking so it doesn't know exactly what to focus.
<!--quoteo(post=1831554:date=Feb 12 2011, 12:12 AM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PseudoKnight @ Feb 12 2011, 12:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831554"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's depth of field, which is different. It works best in cutscenes. In games it can't predict where you're looking so it doesn't know exactly what to focus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like depth of field in CoD, it works wel and it can always know where you're looking... Although I disabled it still, but unless you get Ironsight in NS2 I wouldn't see where to use it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what kind of game do you think NS2 is? :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> a modern one :P
Maybe i've seen a differend kind of motion blur in the games where i noticed it (crysis, mirrors edge, portal, left4dead, etc) but i've never felt like i was inhibited. It doesn't affect your aim at all. PseudoKnight might be right with the input latency but it would be imperceptible. On a low performing game you would turn it off anyway.
ignore this text, it's useless rant:<!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro--> <!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->i think you all are suffering from a terrible form of placebo believing that certain effects could make you better or worse. I play all my games with aa/af, maxed out graphics and cheap input hardware like my 11€ mouse and the noname 5€ keyboard and i still get very good at kicking other peoples ass. Buying "gamer hardware" to get better at games is just voodoo and it's the same with the graphics and to a certain extent even the problems with lag and low framerate are just imagination (not for ns2 yet however, it's really unplayable). As long as a game runs with at least 30 fps i'm fine. I hope you don't take it personally, this is just what i think about "competitive" gaming - i'm not really into it as you could guess ;)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Zeno, you're rant is somewhat right but mostly wrong. It depends on the specifics. If we're talking about 4000 dpi mice and gaming keyboards, you're right. However, latency and framerate have a significant NOTICEABLE effect on my performance. (though it varies) It's not a placebo as I can easily do tests to verify. The difference is if someone gets used to high input latency, an extra 16.7ms isn't going to noticeable. Everything is cumulative, each setting with benefits and drawbacks. Vsync is a great example that comes up over and over. It fixes screen tearing, but it adds an additional 16-33ms of input latency. For some people it's worth it, but for others it feels like the movement just doesn't respond fast enough. (especially in quick reflex FPS games) There is NO question whether or not it's adding input latency.
I have a $24 mouse that's like eight years old. It's 800 DPI, but a solid durable design and a fast response time. My keyboard is a cheap ergonomic one. I specifically chose my monitor because of the low latency, but it's dirt cheap. I don't spend money for a placebo effect, but I certainly notice when performance isn't there, and apparently I have higher standards than you.
better video settings must be added into the options. Where the game can give us all recommended settings based on our own graphics cards, while still giving us options how to tweak things. Right now options are lacking, so I hope I can turn it off if it is added.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
thats why you have object based motion blur - notice the ball only gets blurred when its moving fast. (rather than full screen blur that annoys everyone)
PseudoKnight: yes, you could be right but i don't like this: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and apparently I have higher standards than you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> let's just say you're more sensitive to life's unevenness :D
@Schkorpio: well, this effect actually does suck. First time that i see this object based mb and i think that's just wrong. It completely changes the shape of this sphere so it becomes ... something (unrecognizable) but a sphere. Also the full screen mb is usually there to simulate rapid eye/head movement but blurring a single object doesn't really make sense. Maybe this effect can be suitable for something i currently can't think of* but skulks blurring all over the place wouldnt be nice on the eye.
*(oh, the teleporting effect from that dragonball z series i saw a long time ago.... soo maybe it actually could be used for the teleporting marines who enter the phasegate)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1831579:date=Feb 11 2011, 05:08 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Feb 11 2011, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831579"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->thats why you have object based motion blur - notice the ball only gets blurred when its moving fast. (rather than full screen blur that annoys everyone)
some devs (lucasarts) put SO MUCH emphasis and work into blurring.. which is funny to me because its supposed to simulate something your eyes are already doing. plus it comes at an expensive cost. <a href="http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-force-unleashed-60fps-tech-article" target="_blank">http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalf...ps-tech-article</a>
forcing an object to blur forsaking accurate positioning perception for a useless visual gimmick is a deal breaker for myself - especially when you consider, traditionally, the toll it takes on performance.
if its moving across my screen fast enough for me to not see it clearly and identifyably then its blurring because my eyes cant see it fast enough. if its moving across my screen fast enough for me to see clearly because i can tell the difference between 100 and 200 fps yet its clearly post processed blurred and difficult to ascertain where the object begins and ends or is distracting.. then this is pointless and more important <i>hindering</i>.
I agree that there should be motion blur, but not that it should be constantly on. I hate it, but during cinematic effects it can be quite cool, aswell as if you are flashbanged (altough I hate the concept of flashbangs, really hate it, motion blur based ones are prefered over white, like in css) or similar.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Noticed today (19 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Gameplay task Can evolve to Gorge while already Gorge transitioned from Started to Accepted New Post Noticed today (24 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Gameplay task Can evolve to Gorge while already Gorge has appeared with status Started<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1831445:date=Feb 11 2011, 01:42 PM:name=Onozki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onozki @ Feb 11 2011, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831445"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, sorry. Never noticed that, mainly because i only follow the main page and not the forums. Well, point still stands.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
e.g. [Profile Picture] Name: Max Short Bio: ? (optional) Position Title: Technical Director Position Description: Designer and primary programmer of the Spark engine that NS2 is built on, technical lead, ... Currently working on (as of writing): Spark engine optimisations and NS2 server performance.
[Embedded "Meet the Team" video] at the bottom.
Hopefully that way people can realise that the team is actually very small, and everyone's jobs are very specialised, and that at any given time they've only got one person, for example Max, working on, for example optimisations.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Noticed today (58 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Technical task Fix stair-stepping movement for players has appeared with status Started<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Technical task Fix stair-stepping movement for players transitioned from Finished to Delivered<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finally an alternative to the poor/non-existent structure killing capabilities of the GL and FT. It better not be a L2-restricted upgrade or our IPs will look even more tasty to the current FT-GL-fearing aliens. And naturally if it was L3 then the odds of seeing it in game would be close to never because it wouldn't be necessary to win. No choice. It must be L1... >:)
Damnit Focused, must you nom on the poor Gorge's beloved buildings!
I think it's going to be L2 tech though, since Robotics Factory becomes available at the same time as Observatory. Oh and, Shotty Marines kill structures so fast it's not even funny >_>
Finally an alternative to the poor/non-existent structure killing capabilities of the GL and FT. It better not be a L2-restricted upgrade or our IPs will look even more tasty to the current FT-GL-fearing aliens. And naturally if it was L3 then the odds of seeing it in game would be close to never because it wouldn't be necessary to win. No choice. It must be L1... >:)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Oh, sorry. Never noticed that, mainly because i only follow the main page and not the forums. Well, point still stands.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Trust me, Max is as frustrated as any of you. The poor performance eats away at him every day, and he is working hard to improve server lag and framerate. The new features and prototyping you see are coming mostly from Charlie's end (such as the DI at the moment) so its not taking time away from Max's optimizations.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you still insist you know what they should be doing differently why not write it all down and email it to them?
From what I recall from my OS classes, system heap memory allocation can be mighty painful (as can running malloc on a fragmented memory of little bits of free memory, thus the usual c 'joy' of preallocation things in presized arrays and doing your own memory management ;)).
Could that be contributing to the slowdown?
I guess you'd expected to see a drastic cpu spike and slow down of fps if malloc/free was eating system time, doing memory tricks. Memory seems to go up at a somewhat linear rate, so I guess you'd expect to see fps drop at a similar rate if the memory allocation was taking the time.
I was just thinking that it couldnt hurt to consider looking at that too, incase its related. ;-) (all hail the blessed power of 'valgrind' or whatever the windows equivalent is).
Either that or lets get started on the linux server to start a second path of bug/leak detection. ;-)
lots of <3 to unknown worlds
(The game is soooo close to being playable, I can almost taste it... stop taunting me, UWE. Still i guess i should get some work done before it becomes playable and i lose all human contact ;-)
No, motion blur sux, it is the typical gimmick that first seems nice, but is in fact avoiding you to aim well... seeing things blury never helps, trust me, I wear glasses.
+1. Leave that sort of post processing junk to the guys making the videos, some of us want to play the game and not just watch it!
........
No, memory leaks are perfectly fine to have in servers. You just need infinite memory. Why doesn't your server have infinite memory?
-1
I want motion blur.
Reducing the (possible) graphics quality just to be an uber-pr0-skillz0r gam0r isn't my style :P. I never had any respect for people who disabled their view models or increased the gamma just to "be better". Too much motion blur can indeed be ... well too much. But as long as it is somewhat subtle i'm absolutely ok with it.
yes i'm a graphics ###### :P
censorship O: D:
yes i'm a graphics ###### :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-1 to you good sir.
this is not a single player game running DX11.
this is a competitive multiplayer game.
In your same argument you simultaneously recognize that you dont like competitive exploits for multiplayer games and also suggest a resource intensive, aiming inhibiting visual post processing gimmick reserved for single player games only?? what kind of game do you think NS2 is? :)
(i will agree though, source engine does a VERY cheap and subtle job of this but i cant recall it ever in multi? metro 2033 is a great example of why one WOULDNT want blur. extremely demanding and severely limits reaction time with aiming.)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the blur in CoD where it looks like your eyes focus the way they would in real life. If you are looking at something up close the background will blur slightly and vice versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's depth of field, which is different. It works best in cutscenes. In games it can't predict where you're looking so it doesn't know exactly what to focus.
I like depth of field in CoD, it works wel and it can always know where you're looking...
Although I disabled it still, but unless you get Ironsight in NS2 I wouldn't see where to use it.
a modern one :P
Maybe i've seen a differend kind of motion blur in the games where i noticed it (crysis, mirrors edge, portal, left4dead, etc) but i've never felt like i was inhibited. It doesn't affect your aim at all. PseudoKnight might be right with the input latency but it would be imperceptible. On a low performing game you would turn it off anyway.
ignore this text, it's useless rant:<!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro-->
<!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->i think you all are suffering from a terrible form of placebo believing that certain effects could make you better or worse. I play all my games with aa/af, maxed out graphics and cheap input hardware like my 11€ mouse and the noname 5€ keyboard and i still get very good at kicking other peoples ass. Buying "gamer hardware" to get better at games is just voodoo and it's the same with the graphics and to a certain extent even the problems with lag and low framerate are just imagination (not for ns2 yet however, it's really unplayable). As long as a game runs with at least 30 fps i'm fine.
I hope you don't take it personally, this is just what i think about "competitive" gaming - i'm not really into it as you could guess ;)<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I have a $24 mouse that's like eight years old. It's 800 DPI, but a solid durable design and a fast response time. My keyboard is a cheap ergonomic one. I specifically chose my monitor because of the low latency, but it's dirt cheap. I don't spend money for a placebo effect, but I certainly notice when performance isn't there, and apparently I have higher standards than you.
<a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3752948828511046908#" target="_blank">http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3752948828511046908#</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and apparently I have higher standards than you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
let's just say you're more sensitive to life's unevenness :D
@Schkorpio:
well, this effect actually does suck. First time that i see this object based mb and i think that's just wrong. It completely changes the shape of this sphere so it becomes ... something (unrecognizable) but a sphere. Also the full screen mb is usually there to simulate rapid eye/head movement but blurring a single object doesn't really make sense. Maybe this effect can be suitable for something i currently can't think of* but skulks blurring all over the place wouldnt be nice on the eye.
*(oh, the teleporting effect from that dragonball z series i saw a long time ago.... soo maybe it actually could be used for the teleporting marines who enter the phasegate)
<a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3752948828511046908#" target="_blank">http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3752948828511046908#</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
some devs (lucasarts) put SO MUCH emphasis and work into blurring.. which is funny to me because its supposed to simulate something your eyes are already doing. plus it comes at an expensive cost.
<a href="http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-force-unleashed-60fps-tech-article" target="_blank">http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalf...ps-tech-article</a>
forcing an object to blur forsaking accurate positioning perception for a useless visual gimmick is a deal breaker for myself - especially when you consider, traditionally, the toll it takes on performance.
if its moving across my screen fast enough for me to not see it clearly and identifyably then its blurring because my eyes cant see it fast enough.
if its moving across my screen fast enough for me to see clearly because i can tell the difference between 100 and 200 fps yet its clearly post processed blurred and difficult to ascertain where the object begins and ends or is distracting.. then this is pointless and more important <i>hindering</i>.
Oh and Hydra optimization, I hope that won't get pushed back again :3
Gameplay task Can evolve to Gorge while already Gorge transitioned from Started to Accepted
New Post Noticed today (24 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker:
Gameplay task Can evolve to Gorge while already Gorge has appeared with status Started<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow that was fast!
<img src="http://s2.kimag.es/share/81552530.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
e.g.
[Profile Picture]
Name: Max
Short Bio: ? (optional)
Position Title: Technical Director
Position Description: Designer and primary programmer of the Spark engine that NS2 is built on, technical lead, ...
Currently working on (as of writing): Spark engine optimisations and NS2 server performance.
[Embedded "Meet the Team" video] at the bottom.
Hopefully that way people can realise that the team is actually very small, and everyone's jobs are very specialised, and that at any given time they've only got one person, for example Max, working on, for example optimisations.
Technical task Fix stair-stepping movement for players has appeared with status Started<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doing a little bit of weekender work are we?
Indeed! I wonder who the lil Jack is. :P
Finally an alternative to the poor/non-existent structure killing capabilities of the GL and FT. It better not be a L2-restricted upgrade or our IPs will look even more tasty to the current FT-GL-fearing aliens. And naturally if it was L3 then the odds of seeing it in game would be close to never because it wouldn't be necessary to win. No choice. It must be L1... >:)
I think it's going to be L2 tech though, since Robotics Factory becomes available at the same time as Observatory. Oh and, Shotty Marines kill structures so fast it's not even funny >_>
Finally an alternative to the poor/non-existent structure killing capabilities of the GL and FT. It better not be a L2-restricted upgrade or our IPs will look even more tasty to the current FT-GL-fearing aliens. And naturally if it was L3 then the odds of seeing it in game would be close to never because it wouldn't be necessary to win. No choice. It must be L1... >:)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait grenades are bad at structures?
What game have you been playing?