Movement Chamber First
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Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7626Members
Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7626Members
I seem to be the only one who thinks movement chamber first seems to be a good stratagy... why?
<b>Instead of Sensory chambers</b>
Why build a movement chamber first instead of a sensory chamber? That's simple.
First teir units will want to take advantage of cloaking with a sensory chamber, not so much enhanced sight and scent of fear because of their vulnerability (and sulks can parasite). Yes cloaking can be countered, scanner sweepers do this quite well... Even more so even if you are nice and cloaked once you go running after that marine he is going to hear you. If you properly hide up high on the cielings and high places you won't get spotted (there's a chance but sulks can hide without cloaking, it's doable) Once you drop you will have the oppertunity to get right up that marine for the perfect bite(s).
<b>Instead of a Defense chamber</b>
Why would you want to give up your precious defense chambers for movement you ask?
This choice isn't as obvious but it's reasons are valid too.
What makes defense chambers great early game I ask you....
1) Healing factor heals buildings and provides awsome defense builds
2) Upgrades generally useful in 1st hive and 2nd hive units
Now the defense power of D-chambers is undeinable but think about this... Early game how many towers are you really building. In a big game chances are the most you put down is 3 D chambers and a few O chambers before you work on your second hive. At this point when the marines only have LMGs and possibly shotguns so your towers can still last without the D chamber protection... providing your team protects them (gorges or sulks). The movement chambers can also provide defense for your structures in that if you forward build the movement chambers sulks and gorges can use them to teleport back to the hive incase of emergancy.
For the upgrades, the defense chamber upgrades help your sulk last longer... However Celerity will do the same (to an extent) as well as improve your offence since you can run in and bite quicker. Silence will also improve your defence in that it will be a lot less likely that marine will notice you coming (provided you don't rush head on).
In all there are many overall benifits to the movement chamber first:
1) The healing factor of the defence chamber doesn't come into play that early in the game.
2) Celerity is much more useful to Sulks than Carprice for initial rush and blitzkrieg tatics because of the extra speed.
3) Silence in many cases is better than Cloaking (A marine only sees what's infront of him but hears everything around them and there is no counter to silence while you can scan for cloaking)
4) Adrenline will even help gorges, the extra juice provided by adreline will let them use healing spray longer and can even offset the loss of D-chambers
5) This build order won't mess up your mid game like Sensory first will. You will still be able to get Movement and Defense with the second hive for the much needed upgrades.
Overall I'd like to see people give movement chambers (and silence) the credit it is due. Too many people look at movement chambers just as a source of adreline.
In closing: <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> + Silence = Dead::asrifle::
<b>Instead of Sensory chambers</b>
Why build a movement chamber first instead of a sensory chamber? That's simple.
First teir units will want to take advantage of cloaking with a sensory chamber, not so much enhanced sight and scent of fear because of their vulnerability (and sulks can parasite). Yes cloaking can be countered, scanner sweepers do this quite well... Even more so even if you are nice and cloaked once you go running after that marine he is going to hear you. If you properly hide up high on the cielings and high places you won't get spotted (there's a chance but sulks can hide without cloaking, it's doable) Once you drop you will have the oppertunity to get right up that marine for the perfect bite(s).
<b>Instead of a Defense chamber</b>
Why would you want to give up your precious defense chambers for movement you ask?
This choice isn't as obvious but it's reasons are valid too.
What makes defense chambers great early game I ask you....
1) Healing factor heals buildings and provides awsome defense builds
2) Upgrades generally useful in 1st hive and 2nd hive units
Now the defense power of D-chambers is undeinable but think about this... Early game how many towers are you really building. In a big game chances are the most you put down is 3 D chambers and a few O chambers before you work on your second hive. At this point when the marines only have LMGs and possibly shotguns so your towers can still last without the D chamber protection... providing your team protects them (gorges or sulks). The movement chambers can also provide defense for your structures in that if you forward build the movement chambers sulks and gorges can use them to teleport back to the hive incase of emergancy.
For the upgrades, the defense chamber upgrades help your sulk last longer... However Celerity will do the same (to an extent) as well as improve your offence since you can run in and bite quicker. Silence will also improve your defence in that it will be a lot less likely that marine will notice you coming (provided you don't rush head on).
In all there are many overall benifits to the movement chamber first:
1) The healing factor of the defence chamber doesn't come into play that early in the game.
2) Celerity is much more useful to Sulks than Carprice for initial rush and blitzkrieg tatics because of the extra speed.
3) Silence in many cases is better than Cloaking (A marine only sees what's infront of him but hears everything around them and there is no counter to silence while you can scan for cloaking)
4) Adrenline will even help gorges, the extra juice provided by adreline will let them use healing spray longer and can even offset the loss of D-chambers
5) This build order won't mess up your mid game like Sensory first will. You will still be able to get Movement and Defense with the second hive for the much needed upgrades.
Overall I'd like to see people give movement chambers (and silence) the credit it is due. Too many people look at movement chambers just as a source of adreline.
In closing: <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> + Silence = Dead::asrifle::
Comments
Now if we could just get people to stop building sensory first... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, on some maps it makes great sense - say if you start in the eclipse hive on eclipse, you can put down a movement chamber at south loop to allow the skulks defending maint/core to quickly get back to eclipse if the marines are getting uppity.
Just wish there was a way of getting BACK as quickly...
Who is going to heal the gorge though?
Have fun trying to take a hive or node back when all you have is movement.
People always say Carpice is the differance between 9 and 14 bullets.... I think both are very small numbers and come very fast. Either way the sulk is dead.
A level 3 carapace increase that number to 19, not 14. That is a 2 times increase in the number shots required. For 2 RP.
And if you are going to dismiss that as insignificant, I can only say I feel sorry for your team when you decide to go movement first as gorge.
Adrenalin for skulks? Unlikely, skulks' bite doesn't take up much. Celerity? Moderately useful, marines kill you in 9 hits any way. Slience? Decent, if the marines don't travel in groups you might pick them off one by one. Teleport back to hive in the early game? Not often since every one respawn there.
Carapace increase your survival odds against a marine by two folds and provides healing at strategic places as determined by the gorge. It is an offer that is hard to beat. Not to mention that it heals the offensive towers as well.
2x seems like a lot and it does make a differance, but it's 2x of practically nothing. The sulk is still weak to fire. Proper use of Silence or Celerity can yield better results as they will increase not only the offence of the sulk but it's defensive capabilities too. (Less likely to get hit/shot at)
Even if the movement chamber offers abilities as good as those of defensive chambers, you are ommiting the fact that it heals near by structures and units, which is something that a movement chamber can never do. Unless you want every unit that requires healing to teleport back to the hive to heal and then go back to where they were.
That is a reason why def -> mov -> sen is deemed the standard way of making chambers because it is the easiest to use and the most effective. That is why people are complaining that the sensory chambers and movement chambers need to be tweaked. You don't see people saying def chamber is under used and need to be tweaked.
And, of course, there's no reason it can't work -- if you change your playing style from CS to NS. If you don't run down the hall at a waiting marine, there's no reason why cloaking can't be just as effective as a carapace for chomping down on human glutes.
Personally I think that because NS is relatively new, people are still tending toward CS style confrontation, which is why carapace is the preferred initial trait set -- because it's most effective <i>for that playing style.</i> I know that I've been playing NS since the day it was public, and I'm still learning things daily. There's no reason why other styles will be just as effective with the other upgrade trait sets.
And, of course, there's no reason it can't work -- if you change your playing style from CS to NS. If you don't run down the hall at a waiting marine, there's no reason why cloaking can't be just as effective as a carapace for chomping down on human glutes.
Personally I think that because NS is relatively new, people are still tending toward CS style confrontation, which is why carapace is the preferred initial trait set -- because it's most effective <i>for that playing style.</i> I know that I've been playing NS since the day it was public, and I'm still learning things daily. There's no reason why other styles will be just as effective with the other upgrade trait sets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't say I got NS algorithm all worked out.
The NS community <b>has</b> the NS alorithm worked out. Def->Mov->Sen.
You are free to play NS any way you want, as long as you are not bothered with what is the best possible combination or the best build order, for all I care, you can build sensory chambers first, or as marines, build an auxilary command console first.
Read the other thread in this forum concerning sensory chamber as the first upgrade.
And go check out the suggestions board and see if there is any one whinning about how sucky the def chambers are. Meanwhile check out how many suggestions in that forum talking about possible upgrades to the sensory and movement chambers. Particually the sensory chamber.
Gamers are smart to adept to the best and the most efficient trends in any games. You can doubt the majority and try something else if you don't mind losing.
You guys should take a closer look at the uses of the chambers than see how well they improve you during battle, but the prebattle is just as important. Don't be so quick to refute because you've played a dozen D > M > S games. It is only this way because it helps deathmatch style play.
Everytime a different order is made everyone whines and most end up not properly using their abilities. Tougher armor is easy to use because you don't, it is a passive trait. When people do use their abilities to their fullest extend then we may make a judgement call, but for now NS is too young and so we have plenty of room for discussion right now as we discover more strategies.
It's like marines who don't use phase gates, or don't understand that if 1 or 2 people gaurd the base you don't need to build a turret factory. It's just a different style of play. Both are good, and it's up to you and your mad skillz on which is more effective.
It's like marines who don't use phase gates, or don't understand that if 1 or 2 people gaurd the base you don't need to build a turret factory. It's just a different style of play. Both are good, and it's up to you and your mad skillz on which is more effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Playing styles aside, I think I have given sufficient reasons to show why the majority of alien teams go D -> M -> S
There is clearly a balance issue here with the chambers.
And, of course, there's no reason it can't work -- if you change your playing style from CS to NS. If you don't run down the hall at a waiting marine, there's no reason why cloaking can't be just as effective as a carapace for chomping down on human glutes.
Personally I think that because NS is relatively new, people are still tending toward CS style confrontation, which is why carapace is the preferred initial trait set -- because it's most effective <i>for that playing style.</i> I know that I've been playing NS since the day it was public, and I'm still learning things daily. There's no reason why other styles will be just as effective with the other upgrade trait sets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol....
you dont quite understand.... movement and sensory are fine for taking out the lone wandering marines, but any good marine side WILL get out of thier base and build, its an unstoppable thing, and id like to see how you are going to take down turrets when you die so much faster with movement or sensory. celerity in itself is most useful in defense, getting to spots quick to stop people building, but the fact of the matter is a large group of skilled marines are going to build and then you are stuck as you die so fast from simple turret fire... never mind marine fire.
Cloaking is in my opinion the most useless skill in NS next to redemption, as while you are sitting about cloaking you could be out defending or patrolling looking for phase gates and turret factories being built, all it takes is 1 lone marine to set up a phase gate next to a hive early on and soon your entire game can be lost as they shoot any skulks that respawn before they can retaliate.
Movement vs Defense is a close call.. and it may even vary from map to map, as some maps there are complex vent systems that can be used to get close, negating movement to a degree, but why someone would even mention sens as an option for first hive is beyond me
and this whole play styles thing is BS, the only styles are winning ones and losing ones, sens is definitetly in there, movement is kinda borderline, and you will have to be vastly superior to the opposition to carry it out as you are gonna need to stop them from building almost every time if you wanna get those two hives up rather than having a second chance when the stuff gets up.
hmm blah
If you're any good at bunnyhopping you can easily surpass the speed given by level 3 celerity. The argument that movement first is a different, valid, playing style is the same thing as saying suiciding every 15 seconds is a different playing style that works.
Two quick points.
You claim silence isn't as useful as carpice but I disagree.
With carprice if I wait for a marine often times the situation goes like this...
I drop down on the ground and begin running at the marine. At the sound of me dropping the marine turns around and puts about 10 shots into me. In this case if I'm lucky I can make him miss and get the 2 bites in.
With silence I drop down get right next to marine and get my first bite in with no shots fired at me. Sometimes even both shots.
Now it's not something that will always happen (marine could randomly turn around or may not pass you by in your hiding spot) but if you adjust your playstyle you can make great use of silence early game.
Also, since it's early game Turret farms will appear slowly. With proper pressure on the marines at the start (where you'd have NO upgrades eitherway) you can keep the marines in their base or at least very cautious about going out.
Then by time you have to fall back because the marines are now set up enough to keep you out of their base you have silence and celerity to allow you to harass the marines better using stealth tatics.
Since by then you should also be working on your second hive the D chambers won't be far behind at all either.
Also as I said before if your gorge(s) take an active role they can use adreneline and healing spray to keep the buildings in working order.
I don't know about other people's experiances but I do know that in a good deal of games I play in the alien defenses are either flat out not there or are not attacked before the second hive goes up.
I'd love to play a game with Movement chambers first, by the time they get Motion Tracking you're probably close to having your second hive anyway if it's not done. Only point I really see now to a D chamber is.. If you attack in groups (3-4 Skulks with Carapace can be a pain in the hole), if marines stumble upon your barricade or well.. If you just like lasting a few more shots before dropping, 'cause it's gonna happen anyway unless the marine is a newbie <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
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You have a very narrow idea of what 'defending or patrolling' could be, as if you must constantly run around, as if it's inevitable that you cannot stop them from getting out.
Think about the geometry of the level. Sitting fully cloaked on the ceiling outside the marines exit or cloaked skulks in corners of the room, invisible, eating marines as they walk past, oblivious. You could have one skulk act as a lure at the exit to the room, popping his head out, attracting their attention, letting the marine spend half his clip, and when he reloads, the other 2 invisible skulks eat him. You could wait, invisible, by obvious paths that the Marines will take and, as they walk by, two mouse clicks will send that Marine back home and make him infinitely more paranoid about his next venture out of Marine Start.
There are plenty of options. <b>Good containment precludes the need for patrol.</b> If you kept the marines from even getting out for a good 5 minutes, then your 2nd hive is up and your precious Defense towers can get built. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's impossible, and just because it's common doesn't mean it's the best.
Also, ambushing doesn't work well when the marines go for motion tracking early, as most of the good ones do.
isn't a bad opening theoretically,
problem is the affect it has on your newbs, they can't dodge so much, can't controll their attacks when they've been sped up so well, and don't wana sneak.
Because of this its best to go for the streight upgrades (thats carapice and adrenalin for fades).
In some maps I certainly see how M first could make a BIG difference, if you speed up your gorge he can 1) get out the way of marines better and 2) reach the area's he needs to build in faster.
Celery is really the only upgrade that helps the gorge, and the gorge is the most vital player especially if you're being sensible and only have one. It also means skulks can move around faster and well used makes them offencivly much more dangerous to marines. Turrets are abit of a joke if you ask me, if your enemy build a turret farm at only one hive or at a res point the amount of res wasted basically can win you the game more times than not.
BlueGhost
Sensory however I don't really see as terribly useful in any spot other than three. Cloaking is offset by motion trackers, and if you're sitting anywhere invis that is not a high-traffic area you're effectively taking yourself out of action. Parasiting is useful, but the skulk is more suited to this task as they can give visual information about base locations and movement in addition to marking the fleshies. The only one I really find use for in that tree is hivesight to spot marines in dark locations like Eclipse and the surrounding area. Well, maybe scent of fear to find the guy bleeding in a vent after his base is wiped.
Kheras
The bonus to helping containment with def chambers occurs at the first def chamber built
on the other hand, with 2 adrenaline gorges taht knows how to hide, you have have a mobile healing source to help with attacks on places. It would still take a while for skulls to kill that turret without carapace though <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sensories already cost 10. And it doesn't help any.
Now, if they cost two points .. then maybe. Just MAYBE. Though building walls of lames with sensories would be the only reason for doing it, which IMHO isn't a solution.
I've already said what I consider to be a possible solution - have sensors negate motion tracking (always) and scanner sweeps (in range), and double the range in which they place marines on hivesight. Then they may be a viable choice.
Ah, no.
Its too damn many hours of playing this game.
Its having played this game non-stop for 6 weeks, from 10/31 on.
Its having tried (yes, TRIED) various tactics and strategies, until we are comfortable with what works, and knowing what doesn't.
D-M-S works. S-M-D, M-S-D doesn't. M-D-S or S-D-M doesn't either, unless you get lucky. D-S-M works if your team is somewhat better than the marines.
Its been tried. You aren't inventing anything new.
Hundreds of players, you honestly expect to have found some secret ancient wisdom that all the rest of us have managed to never realize?
Ah, no.
Celerity, Silence, Cloak, they ALL depend on one thing:
Surprise.
Without surprise, they give you no real advantage.
Scanner sweeps spot you no matter what, having an observatory strips your cloak when in range (and _any good marine commander gets observatories fast). So forget the silly idea of cloaking right outside the marine base and lurking in hiding. And no, you don't need to use the observatory to have it strip cloaks. It just has to be built. No research, no need to have the commander do anything.
Silence doesn't help when chasing marines, they make enough noise that they cover the sounds of a running skulk. Want to make less noise? Walk. Silence only helps when sneaking up on a marine.
Carapace helps you in _every situation. Attack, defense, chase, stalk, ambush, etc. Carapace level 3 doubles the durability of skulks, and significantly extends the life of all aliens.
Go 'surprise' an entrenched marine base, with only one hive.