<!--quoteo(post=1824747:date=Jan 16 2011, 02:14 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 16 2011, 02:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not about "over analyzing" the RR, it's about analyzing it at all. I never played Mech Assault 2 but I would bet the "war room" was not both teams planning together before the match started and then joining opposing teams, because that wouldn't make any sense. I imagine each team had their own room.
About your explanation of evveryone starting as a Marine and then mutating, I agree that's what the current RR gives the impression of... and If the alien designs were mutated versions of humans, then your scenario would make perfect sense. But according to UW they are supposed to be mutated versions of the native life on an alien planet (could easily be Earth given that they mostly look like Earth animals). So your scenario would kind of destroy the existing UW backstory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I remember correctly the RR rooms in mech assault 2 were on the same map. Basically on one side was one team and off in the distance you could see the other room. It was like 2 battle stations looking head on and egging each other on. People would glitch in and out of the rooms and pester the opposite team.
Anyways, on to the lore. In all honesty it was just an example. I'm sure someone could come up with a better one. But in all honesty not all things have to make sense in a logical manner. As long as they serve some kind of function. Maybe it's just me but I didn't care what I spawned as in the RR. I knew from the first time I came into a server exactly what it's purpose was. A Interactive team menu. So from a mechanical stand point it is completely logical. It doesn't need to be logical from a graphics stand point. It serves it's purpose and it's a logical one. It also serves another logical purpose, it gives vets a bit of a nostalgic feeling when they enter the game. it's a "Easter Egg" or throw back to NS1.
Also yes if you are talking about it being logical or illogical you are analyzing it. Logic and analysis kinda go hand and hand m8. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1824750:date=Jan 16 2011, 08:23 AM:name=xPreatorianx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xPreatorianx @ Jan 16 2011, 08:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I remember correctly the RR rooms in mech assault 2 were on the same map. Basically on one side was one team and off in the distance you could see the other room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. Pretty much exactly how I was imagining it. Much like the TF2 ready rooms. The key point seems to be choosing a side and THEN joining the ready room for your own side. I would support NS2 ready rooms working like this.
<!--quoteo(post=1824750:date=Jan 16 2011, 08:23 AM:name=xPreatorianx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xPreatorianx @ Jan 16 2011, 08:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also yes if you are talking about it being logical or illogical you are analyzing it. Logic and analysis kinda go hand and hand m8. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO SHIET. Were you trying to make some kind of point?
<!--quoteo(post=1824773:date=Jan 16 2011, 09:12 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 16 2011, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824773"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yep. Pretty much exactly how I was imagining it. Much like the TF2 ready rooms. The key point seems to be choosing a side and THEN joining the ready room for your own side. I would support NS2 ready rooms working like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> then there would be no point in having a ready room if you've already chosen your team. once you choose your team, it means you're ready to play, not jump around talking to everyone
you've just had a statement from someone whos never played ns1 and wasnt confused nor questioned the reason why you spawn as a marine. as he said and everyone else in this thread thinks, you;re over analysing the ready room.
<!--quoteo(post=1824733:date=Jan 16 2011, 02:24 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 16 2011, 02:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you mean?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It means I have faith. I believe.
<!--quoteo(post=1824750:date=Jan 16 2011, 03:23 PM:name=xPreatorianx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xPreatorianx @ Jan 16 2011, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But in all honesty not all things have to make sense in a logical manner. As long as they serve some kind of function. Maybe it's just me but I didn't care what I spawned as in the RR. <b>I knew from the first time I came into a server exactly what it's purpose was. A Interactive team menu. So from a mechanical stand point it is completely logical. It doesn't need to be logical from a graphics stand point. It serves it's purpose and it's a logical one.</b> It also serves another logical purpose, it gives vets a bit of a nostalgic feeling when they enter the game. it's a "Easter Egg" or throw back to NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Also, good job not quoting and addressing this part zex. Now I know you're just trolling.
<!--quoteo(post=1824677:date=Jan 16 2011, 12:46 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 16 2011, 12:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824677"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not true at all. For example the ready rooms in TF2 make perfect sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. For TF2 it's very fitting. Partly because it's a cartoon shooter with no real story behind it. The designers are free to do what serves gameplay best. For one team rrs are a good way to balance the start of a round then force "restart_round" commands. I think that's why they are in TF2 in the first place.
But would it be fitting for NS2? Maybe, with some changes. But would it improve anything? Not really. Or lets say: I highly doubt it. It would just be different, not better. Especially since people seem to like the "one central 'social' hub" idea.
Never said I would be making an argument there. Just my opinion as the "unlogical" argument in here is just an opinion too.
But alright then, lets go trough it together if there is popular demand:
With one RR we have:
- A "social" hub for chatting before/after game and selecting teams
With team RR we have:
- A join menu (the single RR idea has been abolished) - A rr for every team which is only used for a few seconds before the match starts. -> Players already selected their team a second before so there is no need to check if they are idle and the game can start instantly (as it does with single rr team selection). In addition the team RR is no longer used after the initial first spawn because it runs contrary to the NS IP/egg spawn system. (This is why they are of use in TF2, because they are used for <b>every</b> spawn)
In the end it's the social hub idea versus two separate rooms which have no use except nearly instant starting before the first round. So I really can't see how this improves anything/makes it better. Neither by lore, nore by gameplay. But maybe I'm just missing something?
<!--quoteo(post=1824840:date=Jan 16 2011, 06:55 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 16 2011, 06:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, good job not quoting and addressing this part zex. Now I know you're just trolling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think if you go back and read the thread, which seems to be severely challenging for you considering your failure to even read back a single post before you post the same thing that was just said, you will find that I have indeed addressed that argument previously.
<!--quoteo(post=1824868:date=Jan 16 2011, 09:13 PM:name=gorge.ous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gorge.ous @ Jan 16 2011, 09:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes. For TF2 it's very fitting. Partly because it's a cartoon shooter with no real story behind it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure how these two sentences relate. Logically consistent dual ready rooms in TF2 are fitting, because the game is a cartoon shooter and not necessarily logically consistent... but conversely the logically nonsensical single RR is more fitting for NS2 because it is a more realistic game with a backstory? I'm not following you.
As far as the "social" aspect of a dual ready room, I don't think anything is taken away by splitting it into two sides, as long as they can see/communicate with each other (as in TF2). It's not like you need to be standing next to/looking at someone to talk to them, at all, especially considering every player looks identical.
<!--quoteo(post=1824897:date=Jan 16 2011, 11:57 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jan 16 2011, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like how people continually feed the troll. Thread lock pls?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like how all your posts are worthless. Kidding, I don't actually like it.
<!--quoteo(post=1824510:date=Jan 15 2011, 02:37 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 15 2011, 02:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the RR should make logical sense, but more people think it doesn't have to make logical sense and it's just a goofy chatroom. Therefore given other people's expectations (not mine), I think random models is a better solution than associating everyone with a single team before they pick teams, because it makes it more obvious that the RR is supposed to be a nonsensical chatroom. Get it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's there as a team selector and theoretically as a place for people to gather before the game starts. It serves functions within the game.
It doesn't really matter what model you have, although if you must pick that particular nit I think the human model makes more sense than the alien model because as said, players are humans, players are not aliens, marines are faceless blank slates to be filled out by the player, aliens are defined by their appearance both because we do not think of them as people and because the alien class system builds on the idea that each appearance has a specific and precise use.
Although again, it's an incredibly minor thing, it's like complaining that the seats in the ready room don't let you actually sit in them. Really unneccesary.
I totally agree, all marines would make more sense than all aliens. Sure. I'm pretty sure nobody has suggested the RR should be filled with aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1824902:date=Jan 17 2011, 12:21 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 17 2011, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although again, it's an incredibly minor thing, it's like complaining that the seats in the ready room don't let you actually sit in them. Really unneccesary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1824181:date=Jan 14 2011, 01:59 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 14 2011, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you're right, it's not important, it's just a really awkward first impression to give players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mean all marines makes more sense than any aliens. If you're worried about giving an impression to people then having people pre-segregated into marines and aliens makes even less sense. It makes more sense to give everyone the 'neutral' character which is the marine. Unless you want to make another model.
It's not really a "neutral" character though, it's one of the two teams. And I'm not sure why you think segregated RRs makes less sense, it seems to me that one would expect two groups fighting each other to be separated before the fight starts.
<!--quoteo(post=1824899:date=Jan 16 2011, 11:58 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 16 2011, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure how these two sentences relate. Logically consistent dual ready rooms in TF2 are fitting, because the game is a cartoon shooter and not necessarily logically consistent...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, that's part of it. Besides TF2 team RR being a gameplay element (which is in the part you did not refer to...) <!--quoteo(post=1824899:date=Jan 16 2011, 11:58 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 16 2011, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but conversely the logically nonsensical single RR is more fitting for NS2 because it is a more realistic game with a backstory? I'm not following you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm saying it is fitting for TF2 because it fits into gameplay and actually <b>is</b> a gameplay element. The concept is not easily transferable per se and if we adjust it we stick with the "problems" I mentioned . So if I haven't missed something it does not improve anything regarding the issues mentioned in #1.
<!--quoteo(post=1824899:date=Jan 16 2011, 11:58 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 16 2011, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as the "social" aspect of a dual ready room, I don't think anything is taken away by splitting it into two sides, as long as they can see/communicate with each other (as in TF2). It's not like you need to be standing next to/looking at someone to talk to them, at all, especially considering every player looks identical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure many people will disagree that it does not destroy the social aspect. But that aside: So, what is the benefit of splitting it in two? How to avoid the problem with two ready rooms being useless (and not RRs in the first place) because teams have already been chosen and the game can begin?
It's not that the NS readyroom is the greatest thing on earth and is absolutely indispensable, but it has a purpose and serves it just fine. So it's either abolish it, or improve it. Until now I could not find anything in this thread that would do the latter. (Random models is a nice idea, but it does not address the issues this thread was originally about, I think)
I think you need to turn off the monitor zex and think about what you're going to say before you actually say it. Yes, there are people who are trying to pick fights on forums, but at least one or two of the people on this thread have tried to contribute something worthwhile that you have shot down.
The reason why everyone starts as Marines is that in a large part they are the good guys. They are the driving faction in the storyline. The backstory isn't "We are the Kharaa, we want to eradicate Humanity. Here are our stories..." the back story clearly indicates a point of a view of a marine. Spawning as such firmly implants the idea that "I'm a marine, and surrounding me are marines. This is cool."
Now, as a multiplayer game, you're given the option of what team you want to play for. This is exclusively for the fact that you need people on both teams to play the game. The truth of the matter is, neither team is "good" or "bad", they're just trying to survive, but given the context of the backstory and the game itself (the trailers for both games starred the TSA) the Marines are the good guys.
The ready room signifies the starting point of the game (but none the less, still in the game), where you are to choose which side you want to fight for. The Marine default model is just a starting point, the equivalent of the GDI campaign (which you used to be thrown into on game start, rather than allowed to choose which campaign you want to play) from Command and Conquer.
If you are really bothered by this then properly suggest an addition of a "default team" selection in the settings. You can choose "Marines" to spawn as Marine in the ready room, or spawn as a Skulk if you chose "Aliens"... by default it should always be Marines though.
<!--quoteo(post=1824945:date=Jan 17 2011, 07:05 AM:name=Dalin Seivewright)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dalin Seivewright @ Jan 17 2011, 07:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824945"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason why everyone starts as Marines is that in a large part they are the good guys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1823362:date=Jan 11 2011, 10:09 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 11 2011, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823362"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are trying to avoid making the aliens the "evil" creatures, and the marines the good guys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1824945:date=Jan 17 2011, 07:05 AM:name=Dalin Seivewright)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dalin Seivewright @ Jan 17 2011, 07:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824945"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, there are people who are trying to pick fights on forums, but at least one or two of the people on this thread have tried to contribute something worthwhile that you have shot down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree that I've shot down everything anyone else says, in fact the concept of random models on the first start is totally opposite to how I feel about the RR, but I also admit it's a good idea and a more realistic suggestion than any of the solutions I've put out there. Why not point out the ideas you feel are worthwhile, there's a good chance I may agree. Or I might not, it's a free country and realistically who cares about my opinion?
They may be trying to make the Aliens the lesser evil, but they aren't quite there yet ;) Other than Gorgies, of course.
I was referring more to criticisms rather than actual ideas contributed (the ideas to make it better should probably have outweighed the criticisms but that is another topic). First two pages had some insight (although a lot of it was still "You make no sense kthxbai") but after that it did pretty much turn into a patio bbq flame fest with steak seasoning and delicious...
I don't want to give direct quotes but the general feeling of "It is just a ready room. We don't need to make it something else." was something I immediately thought as well when I first read your post. I think that being spammed over and over again started the flame fest.
<!--quoteo(post=1824482:date=Jan 14 2011, 08:47 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 14 2011, 08:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look, nobody in this thread has even attempted to explain how the ready room logically makes sense in the context of NS2's fiction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it does -_- IP's teleport marines in from somewhere. The Ready Room fits in perfectly if it's a small outpost of marines standing by to get teleported into a battle.
And no, it doesn't matter that you can pick an alien team from that room. That's the gameplay function of the room, not the fiction's story behind the room.
It's fine as is. The ready room isn't part of the match/game experience. When everyone spawns in the ready room at the start of a new map/server, does it say "the game is now starting"? No. People have to join teams first. The ready room is external to the match, external to the game experience. So the answer to "Look, nobody in this thread has even attempted to explain how the ready room logically makes sense in the context of NS2's fiction." is <b>it's not part of the context of NS2's fiction</b>, and so trying to explain it in the context of NS2's fiction is what would be illogical. => As in the above post. Sorry Deadzone.
<!--quoteo(post=1824997:date=Jan 17 2011, 10:54 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 17 2011, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the answer to "Look, nobody in this thread has even attempted to explain how the ready room logically makes sense in the context of NS2's fiction." is <b>it's not part of the context of NS2's fiction</b>, and so trying to explain it in the context of NS2's fiction is what would be illogical. => As in the above post. Sorry Deadzone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a problem. :P
To play devil's advocate - even if RR has nothing to do with the NS2 fiction: if you're so anal as to demand a fictional reason for the ready room, what about the title screen? what about the server selection? What about the tab status page - why can marines see Alien scores??? What's the fiction behind that?
Enough said, reporting the thread and crossing fingers for a lock.
<!--quoteo(post=1825063:date=Jan 17 2011, 09:43 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jan 17 2011, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Enough said<b>, reporting the thread</b> and crossing fingers for a lock.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow... there's got to be some repercussions for abusing the report button, I imagine moderators have better things to do than read you whining about threads you happen to disagree with.... that's not actually what the "report" button is for, dude.
I really hope that UWE dosn't change anything about the ready room. It's part of the game's nostalgia. For the arguement of it being confusing to a new player.... honestly, if someone forked over $20 to play this game then I'm sure they will take 2 minutes to understand what the ready room is. It's really not that complicated. I can't imagine someone getting so confused in the RR that they say "F-it, I'm not playing this game anymore".
<!--quoteo(post=1825070:date=Jan 17 2011, 09:51 PM:name=Dank McShwagger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dank McShwagger @ Jan 17 2011, 09:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the arguement of it being confusing to a new player...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is, nobody actually made that argument. That's called a "straw man."
<!--quoteo(post=1824307:date=Jan 14 2011, 12:27 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 14 2011, 12:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, it's not "confusing" because it's obvious that it's a method for team selection in a multiplayer game. But it is nonsensical within the parameters of the game's fiction, which breaks the fourth wall, which is considered amateurish, which again is acceptable in a mod like NS1 but not the kind of lack of polish expected in a commercial game like NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1824241:date=Jan 14 2011, 06:08 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 14 2011, 06:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824241"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I get that it's a throwback to NS1, and it's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect to see in a mod/indy game where they have good ideas but don't have the time or budget to implement them 100%. But I don't believe that's the image UW is trying to accomplish with NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I respect the argument that breaking the fourth wall is perfectly fine in this case, I just happen to disagree.
RR does not play any fictional role, its alternative from having another menu to stare at, those are so boring to look at. They are also difficult to pad out with fancy graphics when so few buttons are required, so why not an enviroment instead where you just run into a "portal".
Btw, spawning back at rr as the class you last was probably will eventually happen but not at all make any more sense, >> You come back as a skulk and join marines, ups there goes reality :)
<!--quoteo(post=1825146:date=Jan 18 2011, 01:56 AM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Jan 18 2011, 01:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825146"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RR does not play any fictional role, its alternative from having another menu to stare at, those are so boring to look at. They are also difficult to pad out with fancy graphics when so few buttons are required, so why not an enviroment instead where you just run into a "portal".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1824323:date=Jan 14 2011, 01:42 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 14 2011, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imagine if instead of a ready room, there was actually the "join team" menu that you mention. On the left there is a button representing the marine team, with a picture of a marine. On the right there is a button representing the alien team, with a picture of another marine. That's basically what we have here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1825146:date=Jan 18 2011, 01:56 AM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Jan 18 2011, 01:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825146"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Btw, spawning back at rr as the class you last was probably will eventually happen but not at all make any more sense, >> You come back as a skulk and join marines, ups there goes reality :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1824494:date=Jan 15 2011, 03:04 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 15 2011, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yes, you lose logical consistency with random models, but it is almost desirable in that it makes it more apparent what other people have been arguing, that the RR should be just a goofy "party" chatroom and not logically related to the main game. That is, as opposed to the current RR being a Marine environment with Marine models that gives a false impression that it's supposed to be consistent with the game world.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
I want to join in this fun discussion, trying to make sense of the world around us, what ambition! :D
First of all lets clear our mind. The ability of making sense of things is a bit subjective. You make sens of what you know. To you it doesn't make sense, to me it makes sense. I try to think about it but I can't make it not make sense so I have a hard time seeing what you are trying to say. Your though is not more rationally logical than anyone else's.
Why do we spawn as marine in rr? is your question. You ask it because it doesn't make sense to you. It is an honest question. The answer that fits is the one that we want. I think as humans we have the privilege of finding answers that don't have to be rational. We are not robots who process things in 1/0 and there isn't a perfect logical answer to questions.
It makes common sense to me that you spawn as a marine in rr. It is a choice the developers have taken spontaneously in NS1, and I still think it is still the most natural answer to your question. You want a better solution? That is a subjective point of view. I think NS has the best solution already. Its easy as the model is available, there is no need for something new. Personally I've never felt obliged to join the marine team because it is a marine model at default. And when the game ends people rejoin rr personified by the class they were playing, which personally i find very amusing to see. It reminds me this is just a game and in the rr, marines and aliens can still get along. They really don't mean any harm to each other, but because of the game of natural selection, they have to fight for recognition. A bit like what you are doing zex, fighting for some cause that is doomed by natural selection, for people have come to love what they have in the rr, and so they understand it, and so it makes sense.
zex: When you read a novel (do you read novels?) do you consider the book's glossy cover as part of the reading experience? If a book has a bad cover, but a great story, do you begrudge it for its cover?
The ready room is the cover, it's not part of the game experience. The game experience begins when it says "the match is now starting". No breaking of fourth wall involved.
<!--quoteo(post=1825200:date=Jan 18 2011, 10:08 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 18 2011, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->zex: When you read a novel (do you read novels?) do you consider the book's glossy cover as part of the reading experience? If a book has a bad cover, but a great story, do you begrudge it for its cover?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off I totally disagree with the analogy you're using. The function of cover art on a book is to give people an idea of the style, theme and tone of the book at a glance. NS2 has a title screen/main menu which is more analogous to a book cover. But leaving the question of whether the RR is at all analogous to a book cover aside, I do expect the cover of a book to be logically contiguous with the content of the book, i.e. it shouldn't depict a character that doesn't appear in the story, it shouldn't have a flowery romantic theme on the cover of a scifi novel, and so on. And while I wouldn't judge the <i>content</i> of a book by the cover art, I would judge the overall professionalism of the publishing. I.e. it could be a perfectly good story regardless of cover art, but it would affect the quality of the book as an overall commercial product.
Comments
About your explanation of evveryone starting as a Marine and then mutating, I agree that's what the current RR gives the impression of... and If the alien designs were mutated versions of humans, then your scenario would make perfect sense. But according to UW they are supposed to be mutated versions of the native life on an alien planet (could easily be Earth given that they mostly look like Earth animals). So your scenario would kind of destroy the existing UW backstory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I remember correctly the RR rooms in mech assault 2 were on the same map. Basically on one side was one team and off in the distance you could see the other room. It was like 2 battle stations looking head on and egging each other on. People would glitch in and out of the rooms and pester the opposite team.
Anyways, on to the lore. In all honesty it was just an example. I'm sure someone could come up with a better one. But in all honesty not all things have to make sense in a logical manner. As long as they serve some kind of function. Maybe it's just me but I didn't care what I spawned as in the RR. I knew from the first time I came into a server exactly what it's purpose was. A Interactive team menu. So from a mechanical stand point it is completely logical. It doesn't need to be logical from a graphics stand point. It serves it's purpose and it's a logical one. It also serves another logical purpose, it gives vets a bit of a nostalgic feeling when they enter the game. it's a "Easter Egg" or throw back to NS1.
Also yes if you are talking about it being logical or illogical you are analyzing it. Logic and analysis kinda go hand and hand m8. :)
Yep. Pretty much exactly how I was imagining it. Much like the TF2 ready rooms. The key point seems to be choosing a side and THEN joining the ready room for your own side. I would support NS2 ready rooms working like this.
<!--quoteo(post=1824750:date=Jan 16 2011, 08:23 AM:name=xPreatorianx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xPreatorianx @ Jan 16 2011, 08:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also yes if you are talking about it being logical or illogical you are analyzing it. Logic and analysis kinda go hand and hand m8. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO SHIET. Were you trying to make some kind of point?
then there would be no point in having a ready room if you've already chosen your team. once you choose your team, it means you're ready to play, not jump around talking to everyone
you've just had a statement from someone whos never played ns1 and wasnt confused nor questioned the reason why you spawn as a marine. as he said and everyone else in this thread thinks, you;re over analysing the ready room.
if the game ended, if you were a heavy, JPer or a onos your model would be just that when you return to the ready room.
THATS IT, in ns1 that was simple and made sense.
BUT what some servers did was things like allow the marines to shoot in the ready room for fun =)
It means I have faith. I believe.
<!--quoteo(post=1824750:date=Jan 16 2011, 03:23 PM:name=xPreatorianx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xPreatorianx @ Jan 16 2011, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But in all honesty not all things have to make sense in a logical manner. As long as they serve some kind of function. Maybe it's just me but I didn't care what I spawned as in the RR. <b>I knew from the first time I came into a server exactly what it's purpose was. A Interactive team menu. So from a mechanical stand point it is completely logical. It doesn't need to be logical from a graphics stand point. It serves it's purpose and it's a logical one.</b> It also serves another logical purpose, it gives vets a bit of a nostalgic feeling when they enter the game. it's a "Easter Egg" or throw back to NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, good job not quoting and addressing this part zex. Now I know you're just trolling.
Yes. For TF2 it's very fitting. Partly because it's a cartoon shooter with no real story behind it. The designers are free to do what serves gameplay best. For one team rrs are a good way to balance the start of a round then force "restart_round" commands. I think that's why they are in TF2 in the first place.
But would it be fitting for NS2? Maybe, with some changes. But would it improve anything? Not really. Or lets say: I highly doubt it.
It would just be different, not better. Especially since people seem to like the "one central 'social' hub" idea.
/imho
But alright then, lets go trough it together if there is popular demand:
With one RR we have:
- A "social" hub for chatting before/after game and selecting teams
With team RR we have:
- A join menu (the single RR idea has been abolished)
- A rr for every team which is only used for a few seconds before the match starts. -> Players already selected their team a second before so there is no need to check if they are idle and the game can start instantly (as it does with single rr team selection). In addition the team RR is no longer used after the initial first spawn because it runs contrary to the NS IP/egg spawn system. (This is why they are of use in TF2, because they are used for <b>every</b> spawn)
In the end it's the social hub idea versus two separate rooms which have no use except nearly instant starting before the first round.
So I really can't see how this improves anything/makes it better. Neither by lore, nore by gameplay.
But maybe I'm just missing something?
I think if you go back and read the thread, which seems to be severely challenging for you considering your failure to even read back a single post before you post the same thing that was just said, you will find that I have indeed addressed that argument previously.
I'm not sure how these two sentences relate. Logically consistent dual ready rooms in TF2 are fitting, because the game is a cartoon shooter and not necessarily logically consistent... but conversely the logically nonsensical single RR is more fitting for NS2 because it is a more realistic game with a backstory? I'm not following you.
As far as the "social" aspect of a dual ready room, I don't think anything is taken away by splitting it into two sides, as long as they can see/communicate with each other (as in TF2). It's not like you need to be standing next to/looking at someone to talk to them, at all, especially considering every player looks identical.
<!--quoteo(post=1824897:date=Jan 16 2011, 11:57 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jan 16 2011, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like how people continually feed the troll. Thread lock pls?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like how all your posts are worthless. Kidding, I don't actually like it.
It's there as a team selector and theoretically as a place for people to gather before the game starts. It serves functions within the game.
It doesn't really matter what model you have, although if you must pick that particular nit I think the human model makes more sense than the alien model because as said, players are humans, players are not aliens, marines are faceless blank slates to be filled out by the player, aliens are defined by their appearance both because we do not think of them as people and because the alien class system builds on the idea that each appearance has a specific and precise use.
Although again, it's an incredibly minor thing, it's like complaining that the seats in the ready room don't let you actually sit in them. Really unneccesary.
<!--quoteo(post=1824902:date=Jan 17 2011, 12:21 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 17 2011, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although again, it's an incredibly minor thing, it's like complaining that the seats in the ready room don't let you actually sit in them. Really unneccesary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1824181:date=Jan 14 2011, 01:59 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 14 2011, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you're right, it's not important, it's just a really awkward first impression to give players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, that's part of it. Besides TF2 team RR being a gameplay element (which is in the part you did not refer to...)
<!--quoteo(post=1824899:date=Jan 16 2011, 11:58 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 16 2011, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but conversely the logically nonsensical single RR is more fitting for NS2 because it is a more realistic game with a backstory? I'm not following you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm saying it is fitting for TF2 because it fits into gameplay and actually <b>is</b> a gameplay element.
The concept is not easily transferable per se and if we adjust it we stick with the "problems" I mentioned . So if I haven't missed something it does not improve anything regarding the issues mentioned in #1.
<!--quoteo(post=1824899:date=Jan 16 2011, 11:58 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 16 2011, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as the "social" aspect of a dual ready room, I don't think anything is taken away by splitting it into two sides, as long as they can see/communicate with each other (as in TF2). It's not like you need to be standing next to/looking at someone to talk to them, at all, especially considering every player looks identical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure many people will disagree that it does not destroy the social aspect. But that aside:
So, what is the benefit of splitting it in two? How to avoid the problem with two ready rooms being useless (and not RRs in the first place) because teams have already been chosen and the game can begin?
It's not that the NS readyroom is the greatest thing on earth and is absolutely indispensable, but it has a purpose and serves it just fine.
So it's either abolish it, or improve it. Until now I could not find anything in this thread that would do the latter. (Random models is a nice idea, but it does not address the issues this thread was originally about, I think)
The reason why everyone starts as Marines is that in a large part they are the good guys. They are the driving faction in the storyline. The backstory isn't "We are the Kharaa, we want to eradicate Humanity. Here are our stories..." the back story clearly indicates a point of a view of a marine. Spawning as such firmly implants the idea that "I'm a marine, and surrounding me are marines. This is cool."
Now, as a multiplayer game, you're given the option of what team you want to play for. This is exclusively for the fact that you need people on both teams to play the game. The truth of the matter is, neither team is "good" or "bad", they're just trying to survive, but given the context of the backstory and the game itself (the trailers for both games starred the TSA) the Marines are the good guys.
The ready room signifies the starting point of the game (but none the less, still in the game), where you are to choose which side you want to fight for. The Marine default model is just a starting point, the equivalent of the GDI campaign (which you used to be thrown into on game start, rather than allowed to choose which campaign you want to play) from Command and Conquer.
If you are really bothered by this then properly suggest an addition of a "default team" selection in the settings. You can choose "Marines" to spawn as Marine in the ready room, or spawn as a Skulk if you chose "Aliens"... by default it should always be Marines though.
<!--quoteo(post=1823362:date=Jan 11 2011, 10:09 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 11 2011, 10:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823362"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are trying to avoid making the aliens the "evil" creatures, and the marines the good guys.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1824945:date=Jan 17 2011, 07:05 AM:name=Dalin Seivewright)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dalin Seivewright @ Jan 17 2011, 07:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824945"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, there are people who are trying to pick fights on forums, but at least one or two of the people on this thread have tried to contribute something worthwhile that you have shot down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree that I've shot down everything anyone else says, in fact the concept of random models on the first start is totally opposite to how I feel about the RR, but I also admit it's a good idea and a more realistic suggestion than any of the solutions I've put out there. Why not point out the ideas you feel are worthwhile, there's a good chance I may agree. Or I might not, it's a free country and realistically who cares about my opinion?
I was referring more to criticisms rather than actual ideas contributed (the ideas to make it better should probably have outweighed the criticisms but that is another topic). First two pages had some insight (although a lot of it was still "You make no sense kthxbai") but after that it did pretty much turn into a patio bbq flame fest with steak seasoning and delicious...
I don't want to give direct quotes but the general feeling of "It is just a ready room. We don't need to make it something else." was something I immediately thought as well when I first read your post. I think that being spammed over and over again started the flame fest.
At any rate... my idea was suggested :\
Yes it does -_-
IP's teleport marines in from somewhere. The Ready Room fits in perfectly if it's a small outpost of marines standing by to get teleported into a battle.
And no, it doesn't matter that you can pick an alien team from that room. That's the gameplay function of the room, not the fiction's story behind the room.
So the answer to "Look, nobody in this thread has even attempted to explain how the ready room logically makes sense in the context of NS2's fiction." is <b>it's not part of the context of NS2's fiction</b>, and so trying to explain it in the context of NS2's fiction is what would be illogical. => As in the above post. Sorry Deadzone.
Not a problem. :P
To play devil's advocate - even if RR has nothing to do with the NS2 fiction: if you're so anal as to demand a fictional reason for the ready room, what about the title screen? what about the server selection? What about the tab status page - why can marines see Alien scores??? What's the fiction behind that?
Enough said, reporting the thread and crossing fingers for a lock.
Wow... there's got to be some repercussions for abusing the report button, I imagine moderators have better things to do than read you whining about threads you happen to disagree with.... that's not actually what the "report" button is for, dude.
The thing is, nobody actually made that argument. That's called a "straw man."
<!--quoteo(post=1824307:date=Jan 14 2011, 12:27 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 14 2011, 12:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, it's not "confusing" because it's obvious that it's a method for team selection in a multiplayer game. But it is nonsensical within the parameters of the game's fiction, which breaks the fourth wall, which is considered amateurish, which again is acceptable in a mod like NS1 but not the kind of lack of polish expected in a commercial game like NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1824241:date=Jan 14 2011, 06:08 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 14 2011, 06:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824241"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I get that it's a throwback to NS1, and it's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect to see in a mod/indy game where they have good ideas but don't have the time or budget to implement them 100%. But I don't believe that's the image UW is trying to accomplish with NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I respect the argument that breaking the fourth wall is perfectly fine in this case, I just happen to disagree.
Btw, spawning back at rr as the class you last was probably will eventually happen but not at all make any more sense, >> You come back as a skulk and join marines, ups there goes reality :)
<!--quoteo(post=1824323:date=Jan 14 2011, 01:42 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 14 2011, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imagine if instead of a ready room, there was actually the "join team" menu that you mention. On the left there is a button representing the marine team, with a picture of a marine. On the right there is a button representing the alien team, with a picture of another marine. That's basically what we have here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1825146:date=Jan 18 2011, 01:56 AM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Jan 18 2011, 01:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825146"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Btw, spawning back at rr as the class you last was probably will eventually happen but not at all make any more sense, >> You come back as a skulk and join marines, ups there goes reality :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1824494:date=Jan 15 2011, 03:04 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 15 2011, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yes, you lose logical consistency with random models, but it is almost desirable in that it makes it more apparent what other people have been arguing, that the RR should be just a goofy "party" chatroom and not logically related to the main game. That is, as opposed to the current RR being a Marine environment with Marine models that gives a false impression that it's supposed to be consistent with the game world.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMHO
edit - this is getting a bit circular ; )
First of all lets clear our mind. The ability of making sense of things is a bit subjective. You make sens of what you know. To you it doesn't make sense, to me it makes sense. I try to think about it but I can't make it not make sense so I have a hard time seeing what you are trying to say. Your though is not more rationally logical than anyone else's.
Why do we spawn as marine in rr? is your question. You ask it because it doesn't make sense to you. It is an honest question. The answer that fits is the one that we want. I think as humans we have the privilege of finding answers that don't have to be rational. We are not robots who process things in 1/0 and there isn't a perfect logical answer to questions.
It makes common sense to me that you spawn as a marine in rr. It is a choice the developers have taken spontaneously in NS1, and I still think it is still the most natural answer to your question. You want a better solution? That is a subjective point of view. I think NS has the best solution already. Its easy as the model is available, there is no need for something new. Personally I've never felt obliged to join the marine team because it is a marine model at default. And when the game ends people rejoin rr personified by the class they were playing, which personally i find very amusing to see. It reminds me this is just a game and in the rr, marines and aliens can still get along. They really don't mean any harm to each other, but because of the game of natural selection, they have to fight for recognition. A bit like what you are doing zex, fighting for some cause that is doomed by natural selection, for people have come to love what they have in the rr, and so they understand it, and so it makes sense.
The ready room is the cover, it's not part of the game experience. The game experience begins when it says "the match is now starting". No breaking of fourth wall involved.
First off I totally disagree with the analogy you're using. The function of cover art on a book is to give people an idea of the style, theme and tone of the book at a glance. NS2 has a title screen/main menu which is more analogous to a book cover. But leaving the question of whether the RR is at all analogous to a book cover aside, I do expect the cover of a book to be logically contiguous with the content of the book, i.e. it shouldn't depict a character that doesn't appear in the story, it shouldn't have a flowery romantic theme on the cover of a scifi novel, and so on. And while I wouldn't judge the <i>content</i> of a book by the cover art, I would judge the overall professionalism of the publishing. I.e. it could be a perfectly good story regardless of cover art, but it would affect the quality of the book as an overall commercial product.