Weapons Defined Roles
l3lessed
Join Date: 2010-06-07 Member: 71977Members
Join Date: 2010-06-07 Member: 71977Members
So I got to play a few beta games today, and overall it was a good experience. I'm looking forward to the final version. One thing I noticed pertained to marine weapons. To me it seems that their isn't a big delineation between the roles of the weapons. The marines just slowly progresses up the weapon ladder, and each one just becomes a more powerful alternative to the last culminating in the flamethrower, even after this last patch. This leads to a boring game play progression.
It's early to be talking about this, but we might as well discuss it as the game is getting closer to a balancing stage. They need to start to give each weapon a unique role. Here are my thoughts on this. The rifle and pistol good at killing aliens before they can close the distance. A shotgun good at stopping aliens up close. Grenades good at clearing out rooms and buildings, but bad at on the fly stopping power. Flamethrowers good at clearing DI, when they add it, and overall lifeform suppression like lerker spores, but not the death machine it is now.
By doing this, it would encourage players to take on different roles, work together, and communicate between each other and the commander.
It's early to be talking about this, but we might as well discuss it as the game is getting closer to a balancing stage. They need to start to give each weapon a unique role. Here are my thoughts on this. The rifle and pistol good at killing aliens before they can close the distance. A shotgun good at stopping aliens up close. Grenades good at clearing out rooms and buildings, but bad at on the fly stopping power. Flamethrowers good at clearing DI, when they add it, and overall lifeform suppression like lerker spores, but not the death machine it is now.
By doing this, it would encourage players to take on different roles, work together, and communicate between each other and the commander.
Comments
1) make the gl anti-personal + detonate-on-impact. Add the safety feature like what real 40mm grenades have which prevent close range detonation. I want it to only hurt structures when it strikes them directly, with a small splash radius of plant-killing ability. but otherwise <u>NOT an anti-structure weapon</u>.
2) make the flamethrower something you carry in addition to your rifle. I would like this weapon to <u>not</u> be something that kills structures immediately, but rather is used to set structures on fire where they literally burn till dead, only after a period of time, but constant flamer exposure makes them burn faster. Also a gorge/crag/hive/bug can heal spray to extinguish the fire, and gorges, and i think fades also?, have self heal which can be used for this.
Perhaps an alien upgrade (for alien players+structures, or only for alien players) to provide for a slimy coating flame retardant which means a longer burn is required before they will catch a flame, and once sufficiently burned the fire-armor will be at 0% which makes them vulnerable to ignition, but an alien player can get additional slime from a hive/dc? Or maybe it's their stamina level that powers the fire protection?).
Just tweak the damage rate associated with being on fire, and amount of fire-armor to prevent getting set on fire, in order to create enough of a danger that marines may want to think twice about having a flamer in their hands 100% and everything should work out. (bullets need to kill faster then fire for this to work! Remember Ripley used the pulse rifle against the xenomorph for instant kill, and flamer against the eggs... If she used the flamer against the xenomorph then she should have a crazy burning bug running at her)
3. make the rifle more accurate and damaging at level 1 then it currently is. (Right now it shoots too inaccurate like what the shotgun should be and the weak damage capability makes it a challenge to kill a skulk)
4. make the shotgun more accurate and damaging at level 1 then it currently is. (Right now the damage drop-off rate is too great and the cone expands to rapidly imo).
So the outcome is a marine carries either a shotgun or rifle out of preference, and additionally they can have a flamethrower and also the rifle can have a grenade launcher. This should make the marine team a versatile force and reduce the need for every marine to have a flamethrower simply to be effective against aliens.
(The marine weapons all collapse a great deal which fits well with the idea of letting them carry an additional primary weapon. I think this opens the door for marines that can carry both a rifle and a shotgun (instead of rifle + flamethrower or shotgun + flamethrower), and switch depending on the type of room/situation (and is something which can help during that time of fighting for 2 cc's). Maybe you want to carry a backup shotgun for close encounters :P)
So The flamer should be against DI & unarmored players, because bone doesnt burn very good so it shouldnt do so much damage until you're out of armor as an alien. this forces people to use the rifle/shotty/pistol to break the armor before flaming away.
And with some number-tweaking, this could make all weapons versatile since the distinction between the rifle & shotgun is pretty clear.
Grenades are excellent for clearing Whips and Hydras around corners, but run out of ammo quickly; Rifles also run out of ammo quickly; Shotguns are not so quick for clearing clumped structures; and the Axe is the last thing anyone would want to be using against any alien life form. This is where the Flamer comes in. It is a versatile support weapon that can deal decent AOE damage against aliens and structures from a good range, and does not run out of ammo quickly. While the Flamer does not instantly toast aliens, anyone caught in the burning nanite would want to evade the flame ASAP to avoid becoming a lump of charcoal on the floor.
That is the role I envision the Flamer fulfills.
i like this idea. make it a mini flamethrower attachment that does lots of damage but has fewer fuel cells and a shorter range. useful for close quarters combat but when at range, you still have the rifle.
shame to waste the flamethrower model, but i still like the attachment idea.
Considering armor is half of fades' monstrous total health and more than half of onoses' total health, shotguns have their role.
Flamethrowers need to be fixed. Once Dynamic Infestation is in, it can be killed by flamethrowers for their role. They are also low range.
Grenades are good at killing groups of structures and firing into vents and around corners, and bad at killing almost all aliens (the moving ones). They also serve as the excuse for explosions in NS2 (an important role to be sure ^^).
Assault Rifles have a huge clip for tracking fast aliens before reloading.
Pistols are back up.
Switch Axes are infinite ammo, low accuracy weapons which are good for using one structures (who can't dodge) to save ammo for every other weapon.
That's everything right? The only problem area is flamethrowers because they are broken and DI isn't implemented. Everything else so far has a distinguishable and good role.
I want to feel it's almighty power when I let rip with the hot gas... see it dripping off walls, and blurring my vision. I have to physically hold it steady whilst aiming, and it is far too hot to let rip in closed spaces. But i'd be screwed if anything attacked from behind and probably blow up a few seconds after death, because I can't turn quickly when in use. So I definitely need team mates to cover me.
This sort of thing would define each weapon better, be effective against structures and life forms - whilst being inherently dangerous to the user because they have little situation awareness and slow turn.
Think about the aliens - their role is defined by class.
With marines, you should be defined by weapon choice. This would force people to work as a team, which is a good thing. It also gives stronger character to the weapons.
I know this is a game - but look at real life flame throwers. Very effective, but have massive weakness in how dangerous they are for the owner. They are heavy, you can't run around (especially whilst firing) but is very effective when on target.
Marines need high positives, and high negatives for the better weapon sets - and as you go through the tiers to exoskeleton, you should loose more of the negatives and gain positives in relation to cost.
Considering armor is half of fades' monstrous total health and more than half of onoses' total health, shotguns have their role.
Flamethrowers need to be fixed. Once Dynamic Infestation is in, it can be killed by flamethrowers for their role. They are also low range.
Grenades are good at killing groups of structures and firing into vents and around corners, and bad at killing almost all aliens (the moving ones). They also serve as the excuse for explosions in NS2 (an important role to be sure ^^).
Assault Rifles have a huge clip for tracking fast aliens before reloading.
Pistols are back up.
Switch Axes are infinite ammo, low accuracy weapons which are good for using one structures (who can't dodge) to save ammo for every other weapon.
That's everything right? The only problem area is flamethrowers because they are broken and DI isn't implemented. Everything else so far has a distinguishable and good role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
miniguns, usable only with an exosuit.
I want to feel it's almighty power when I let rip with the hot gas... see it dripping off walls, and blurring my vision. I have to physically hold it steady whilst aiming, and it is far too hot to let rip in closed spaces. But i'd be screwed if anything attacked from behind and probably blow up a few seconds after death, because I can't turn quickly when in use. So I definitely need team mates to cover me.
This sort of thing would define each weapon better, be effective against structures and life forms - whilst being inherently dangerous to the user because they have little situation awareness and slow turn.
Think about the aliens - their role is defined by class.
With marines, you should be defined by weapon choice. This would force people to work as a team, which is a good thing. It also gives stronger character to the weapons.
I know this is a game - but look at real life flame throwers. Very effective, but have massive weakness in how dangerous they are for the owner. They are heavy, you can't run around (especially whilst firing) but is very effective when on target.
Marines need high positives, and high negatives for the better weapon sets - and as you go through the tiers to exoskeleton, you should loose more of the negatives and gain positives in relation to cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i wanna see them implement the explosion. if you kill a flamethrower wielding marine as an alien, odds are that you hit the flamethrower at least once. the flamethrower should explode and put flames on marines for a few seconds or flames on everyone.
I fully agree that weapons should be allocated to a class or in some way diversified in a less linear tech tree. The great thing about other games is even though the strongest weapon is just that, weaker or default weapons still hold their own when used by skilled players. its not much fun taking a flames to the face as aliens from every player on the other team. Also the flame thrower range a bit too long.
This is a horrible way to balance an unbalanced weapon that is why you never see it in any games. You don't punish teammates for another player picking a weapon he is bad with, and that is exactly what this will do. Punishment, which is a form of behavioral reinforcement, should be the last form of balance and only used when completely necessary. Positive and negative reinforcement are much better forms of balancing.
Positive reinforcement would consist of a player getting a flame thrower, teaming up with a assault rifle soldier, and rolling players for using the flamethrowing within scenarios it excels and falling back on the teammate in areas it doesn't.
Negative reinforcement would consist of a player getting a flame thrower, running rambo into a infested room with a lerk or fade, and getting rolled for not using the flame thrower within a situation it doesn't excel in. This isn't happening right now, and it should be. It be like a sniper rifle being able to own someone with a machine gun in a close combat situation.
The problem right now is that there is really no negative reinforcement for doing the above example. There is only positive reinforcement. You get a flamer and you roll the other team by yourself. You get a flamer and you roll the team with your teammates. There is no negative. SO instead of punishing players, first add in negative reinforcement.
<a href="http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/nru/nr.html" target="_blank">http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/nru/nr.html</a>
I imagine it to be a utility weapon to cut a way into the heart of the alien base. It does few, but steady damage in a quite large area, rather than focused point damage.
Strengths:
<ul><li>Only way to remove DI ...</li><li>Does extra damage to: hydra farms, vanilla structures and eggs</li><li>Keeps small alien classes at a distance (maybe clear vents from them / collision with GL role?)</li><li>Multiple flamethrowers should take down a hive quickly</li></ul>
Weaknesses:
<ul><li>Few damage to: Mature structures</li><li>Few to no damage to: Fade, Onos</li><li>Disables sprint</li></ul>
While Fade and Onos are bullet work, mature alien buildings would have to be taken down by grenades. So getting into a well-protected hive would require a balanced combination of all weapontypes. That requires teamwork and would be very RTS like.
Regarding GL:
On the one hand I like the attachment idea. On the other hand its true that taking a GL is now just a question of availble res, rather than a tactical decision, as it practically adds a third weapon to your inventory (and decisions are what makes a game challanging and interesting). I see two ways out:
<ol type='1'><li>Return to an NS1 style GL</li><li>Have at least one different attachment, so you have to make a decision</li></ol>
FocusedWolf and Tig already proposed a mini flamethrower. But perhaps the attachment idea can be extend by providing a weak tier 2 attachment version for each heavy tier 3 weapon.
So possible attachments would then be:
<ul><li>Mini Flamethrower (weaker, shorter range, less fuel)</li><li>Mini GL (like the current one, but with less damage or grenades)</li><li>Mini [add name here] for more firepower (Will there be an HMG in NS2, beside the exo-chaingun?)</li></ul>
This gives room for very interesting choices. The commander can choose to reserach the attachments first, having slightly specialized marines early ingame, or save these res and go directly for the far more powerful, but very specialized tier 3 weapons, who's wielders require protection by other marines. There would be so many potential combinations ...
fine