NS2 Fade - Serious Discussion

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  • lunsluns Join Date: 2010-12-05 Member: 75502Members
    not being able to blink into vents is pretty huge problem if you ask me. Right now the fade works well best on flat surface, once jetpacks and marines tech up, fades will die pretty quickly for due to poor aiming system but largely lack of speed.

    I do believe the fade should have two forms of blink abilities. The first blink is our old ns1 fade blink, and the second ns2 blink system. The first blink offers quick jump to any location, the second blink offers more stealthy jump - without being seen.

    if these items aren't good, reducing the clicking is a must.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Blink is an ability with its primary means being to quickly jump from one position to another; therefor the ability to quickly execute as well is crucial.

    -Double-clicking takes more time to do than click-release. In order to click twice you must have already clicked once.

    -Double-click or click-release; to cancel the blink requires pressing mouse1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    someone posted this, which looks promising but might require some tweaking maybe.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1815891:date=Dec 15 2010, 01:41 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Dec 15 2010, 01:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1815891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like I said in the other thread, I'd rather have it they actually remove the orientation part.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I was under the impression that they already had, and my suggestion was a manual replacement of that.

    Lazer: yeah, my idea was something along those lines - it gives you an opportunity to reorient yourself however you choose.
  • Squeal_Like_A_PigSqueal_Like_A_Pig Janitor Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 66Members, Super Administrators, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1816018:date=Dec 15 2010, 04:34 AM:name=AssassinTeddy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AssassinTeddy @ Dec 15 2010, 04:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1816018"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After trying to blink into vents a couple of times I gave up and assumed the devs made a design decision to not let the large aliens into vents, which sounds excellent to me. If that wasn't the case, just need the ability to blink while crouched and it should be no problems to get into vents quickly with current blink. Still not understanding how blinking at moving targets etc is slow now though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Fade will be able to blink into vents, he will just need to be crouched while doing it. Currently crouch for the fade is not implemented in the code, but all the animations for croching, moving while crouched, etc. are all done.

    --Cory
  • lunsluns Join Date: 2010-12-05 Member: 75502Members
    cory can you please somehow reduce the clicking? fades really are slow compared to ns1, they will never catch moving target, especially jet-packer.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    edited December 2010
    The fade is already pretty hunched, so will he be crawling through vents on his belly?
    <a href="http://www.spriters-resource.com/gameboy_advance/metzero/sheet/8813" target="_blank"><img src="http://i51.tinypic.com/hs9cw5.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    i love how jetpacks are given as a argument that the fade is weak (even if i think he is really great right now) even if the jetpacks are not even in the game yet and we have no idea how they will be! they might just enable "high" jumps for marines and not be like ns1 where marines where flying nearly better than lerks.
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1816101:date=Dec 15 2010, 05:00 PM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Dec 15 2010, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1816101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i love how jetpacks are given as a argument that the fade is weak (even if i think he is really great right now) even if the jetpacks are not even in the game yet and we have no idea how they will be! they might just enable "high" jumps for marines and not be like ns1 where marines where flying nearly better than lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Lets just say that if the JP'er cannot chase anything I dont think its worth getting.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    Considering getting out of the way is the best defence against an onos, and would work reasonably well against skulks, I would have thought a simple high jump would be very useful. Especially considering maps like tram which have several rooms with large boxes or other obstacles the jetpacker could traverse.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited December 2010
    I don't know if this has been suggested already, but I think the a simplified sight like in Aliens vs Predator (AvP3) would be a better alternative for for Fade's current blink targetting "hollowgram".

    Here's a clip of it in action: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiO_W8zTBbc)

    I think it is possibly worthwhile to try slowing Blink down slightly, so it turns the Fade incorporeal and invisible for about half a second as it flies to the destination, while ignoring gravity and player collision. For long distance Blinks, only the last 0.5 second of the flight could be shown.

    A non-instant Blink would be less disorientating, while improving control over Fades' movement, as Fades will have time to turn in midair to choose their facing before landing, for corning around bends as well as for flanking marines.
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1815969:date=Dec 14 2010, 05:48 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Dec 14 2010, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1815969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->aiming at moving targets or blinking into vents slow process. blink is largely lost its speed compared to ns1 fades.

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w82fOrlf9lI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w82fOrlf9lI</a> - watch 30 seconds of this video to understand the problem
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w8hXW8ZofE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w8hXW8ZofE</a> - watch few mins in this video to see more examples


    two forms of blink might require. One which the fade can position himself in the location he wants, the second blink is where he does what ns1 fades blink worked. fades don't run after their target they jump to them, these two blinks would offer vast amount of options for the fade. He can choose to be seen while blinking or if he wants he can blink in more stealthy matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    no, thats because the devs for some reason let the marines have regular backpedal again for some stupid reason.


    fade is fine
  • lunsluns Join Date: 2010-12-05 Member: 75502Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1816110:date=Dec 15 2010, 04:17 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Dec 15 2010, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1816110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know if this has been suggested already, but I think the a simplified sight like in Aliens vs Predator (AvP3) would be a better alternative for for Fade's current blink targetting "hollowgram".

    Here's a clip of it in action: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiO_W8zTBbc)

    I think it is possibly worthwhile to try slowing Blink down slightly, so it turns the Fade incorporeal and invisible for about half a second as it flies to the destination, while ignoring gravity and player collision. For long distance Blinks, only the last 0.5 second of the flight could be shown.

    <u>A non-instant Blink would be less disorientating, while improving control over Fades' movement, as Fades will have time to turn in midair to choose their facing before landing, for corning around bends as well as for flanking marines.</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    that's the reason fades are slow, and will not catch moving target. They might be amazing at early games, but once marines tech up the lack of speed will get them easily killed. I just can't understand people saying blink is fine, compared to ns1 blink it only offers special effects, nothing more.

    I like your blink idea, but I did say if they not unwilling to change blink at least offer us two methods of blinking or reducing the clicking would be amazingly great!
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    i vote for the "keep momentum blink"
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited December 2010
    @luns: I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that Blink is currently quite clumsy (I just played my first few games of NS2 yesterday). Fades are slow particularly around corners, and at Blinking down narrow corridors littered with marine garbage, as they requires precise aim. As a result, instant Blink maybe good for distracting marines and wasting their ammo, but when it comes to actual killing, it feels like a handicap rather than a useful tool.

    [Edit] After revisiting Bacillus's post on page 1, I think his analysis is spot-on. The margin of error needs to be smaller (currently, a few degrees off on the aim can make a huge difference in distance travelled). Because Blink is instant, it provides no opportunity for the Fade to make adjustments once it springs into action, which can throw the Fade into unfavourable situations unintentionally (such as straight into the barrel of a shotgun with his back turned). Finally, there needs to be some feedback mechanism on the distance Blink is about to travel.

    Perhaps Blink can have two types of behaviour, one for rapid trans-location, another for precise movement, useful for surgical attacks:
    <ol type='1'><li>A <b>single RClick</b> sends the Fade a short distance forward in the direction it is facing;</li><li><b>holding RClick</b> lets the Fade have greater control over Blink, much like how it currently works.</li></ol>

    [Edit] Looks like Harimau beat me to it. :P


    On a side note, I feel that the dual stab (weapon 2) for the Fade to be rather inadequate. For it to be effective, a Fade would have to sneak behind a lone marine, who is standing still, and slowly raises its claws to strike upon the hapless victim. Such a scene reminds me of scenes in movies, where the villain thought he had all the time in the world to kill the hero, and completely exposes himself, but the ending rarely goes according to his plan. I suggest modifying the attack to allow movement while the Fade rears its claws, and accelerate forward when the attack is performed.
  • CymenCymen Join Date: 2010-12-10 Member: 75593Members
    edited December 2010
    Okay here are my ideas for the blink:

    Instead of having an instant teleportation, you stay about half a second (depends on distance of the blink) in a kind of ghost mode. I know, I know it's been sugggested before and would be OP for various reasons but here's the catch: You can't fully control the fades' movement in this "ghost"-form. Instead, you see yourself (in first person) rush with great speed to the destination you picked. The only control you have is using A and D to strafe left and right and most importantly, use the mouse to change your orientation. You can also abort the blink to re-appear somewhere between point A (your position when activating the ability) and B (previously chosen destination).
    This will gve you enough control to make a difference AND give you the old feeling of speed (add moion blur?)!



    Another idea I got while writing the other (I prefer this one, actually):

    In GM ("ghost"-mode as described above) you have FULL MOVEMENT CONTROL except for one element: your speed. You can ony stay in GM for <1 sec. before you automatically re-appear (unless you abort the blink before that). The advantage in GM is also your handicap; The fast movement with which you travel is hard to control because changing the direction in GM is difficult due to the momentum of the previous movement direction (rubberband-effect). In addition the that mind the time limit!

    An inexperienced or unskiled player would be able to use this to close in on the enemy straight ahead and do some damage. But imagine what an experienced, skilled player could do with that!

    I hope I made both ideas clear enough (not a native speaker). Constructive criticism welcome.

    <b>EDIT</b>: I know that instant TP is probably not going to change that much. But as I wrote this is just an idea. Not some kind of "you gotta implement this"-suggestion.
    I think that a blink like this would make skillbased movement (that isn't BH) not only possible but necessary to cause some real damage while allowing unskilled players to have some fun.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    Instant TP ain't going away.
  • SirotSirot Join Date: 2006-12-03 Member: 58851Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1816401:date=Dec 16 2010, 08:24 AM:name=Cymen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cymen @ Dec 16 2010, 08:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1816401"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay here are my ideas for the blink:

    Instead of having an instant teleportation, you stay about half a second (depends on distance of the blink) in a kind of ghost mode. I know, I know it's been sugggested before and would be OP for various reasons but here's the catch: You can't fully control the fades' movement in this "ghost"-form. Instead, you see yourself (in first person) rush with great speed to the destination you picked. The only control you have is using A and D to strafe left and right and most importantly, use the mouse to change your orientation. You can also abort the blink to re-appear somewhere between point A (your position when activating the ability) and B (previously chosen destination).
    This will gve you enough control to make a difference AND give you the old feeling of speed (add moion blur?)!



    Another idea I got while writing the other (I prefer this one, actually):

    In GM ("ghost"-mode as described above) you have FULL MOVEMENT CONTROL except for one element: your speed. You can ony stay in GM for <1 sec. before you automatically re-appear (unless you abort the blink before that). The advantage in GM is also your handicap; The fast movement with which you travel is hard to control because changing the direction in GM is difficult due to the momentum of the previous movement direction (rubberband-effect). In addition the that mind the time limit!

    An inexperienced or unskiled player would be able to use this to close in on the enemy straight ahead and do some damage. But imagine what an experienced, skilled player could do with that!

    I hope I made both ideas clear enough (not a native speaker). Constructive criticism welcome.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    To expand on this idea... (someone might have already suggested what I am about to suggest, but I am too tired to read the entire thread right now)

    I suggest the following changes to blink:
    1. Blink no longer automatically orients the player.
    2. Blink is no longer instant, but has a 1 second delay. When Blink is activated, the Fade is in "Ghost mode" over that 1 second gap, quick travels no-clip style into the new location. The player does not have control over the movement, he or she simply moves to the destination of the blink.
  • CymenCymen Join Date: 2010-12-10 Member: 75593Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1816722:date=Dec 17 2010, 11:39 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Dec 17 2010, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1816722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To expand on this idea... (someone might have already suggested what I am about to suggest, but I am too tired to read the entire thread right now)

    I suggest the following changes to blink:
    1. Blink no longer automatically orients the player.
    2. Blink is no longer instant, but has a 1 second delay. When Blink is activated, the Fade is in "Ghost mode" over that 1 second gap, quick travels no-clip style into the new location. The player does not have control over the movement, he or she simply moves to the destination of the blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well, this would at least solve the disorientation issue.
  • JuanbacaJuanbaca Join Date: 2010-12-08 Member: 75550Members
    They didn't call this thing teleport they called it blink. He should move fast enough not to be seen but not fast enough to not get shot. The whole ghost of the fade model is fine but I think it should run there extremely fast. Like a flash or stream of purple. Not like a puff of smoke or just a jumping fade no a flash. Flash he could be across the room in no time. Flash its behind you flash its gone.
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Members
    i vote eliminate the autoaim and keep the rest
  • ZenoZeno Join Date: 2007-09-05 Member: 62183Members
  • elmo33elmo33 Join Date: 2009-08-07 Member: 68377Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1817041:date=Dec 18 2010, 07:04 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Dec 18 2010, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1817041"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i vote eliminate the autoaim and keep the rest<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This + give the fade something like skulk leap to give him some momentum.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited December 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1816722:date=Dec 17 2010, 09:39 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Dec 17 2010, 09:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1816722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To expand on this idea... (someone might have already suggested what I am about to suggest, but I am too tired to read the entire thread right now)

    I suggest the following changes to blink:
    1. Blink no longer automatically orients the player.
    2. Blink is no longer instant, but has a 1 second delay. When Blink is activated, the Fade is in "Ghost mode" over that 1 second gap, quick travels no-clip style into the new location. The player does not have control over the movement, he or she simply moves to the destination of the blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That would work very well. Blink would be an instant teleport, but with the Fade invisible for one second at the target location. During this time, the Fade would be able to choose its facing, as well as ending "ghost mode" early by moving or attacking. For balanced reason, Blink will probably need a one to two second cooldown, and will be unusable while in "ghost mode". As a bonus, the sometimes disorientating auto-orientation will no longer be required.
  • CymenCymen Join Date: 2010-12-10 Member: 75593Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1818152:date=Dec 22 2010, 04:14 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Dec 22 2010, 04:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would work very well. Blink would be an instant teleport, but with the Fade invisible for one second at the target location. During this time, the Fade would be able to choose its facing, as well as ending "ghost mode" early by moving or attacking. For balanced reason, Blink will probably need a one to two second cooldown, and will be unusable while in "ghost mode". As a bonus, the sometimes disorientating auto-orientation will no longer be required.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I like this idea, too.
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