flamethrower one man army
sheena_yanai
Join Date: 2002-12-23 Member: 11426Members
Join Date: 2002-12-23 Member: 11426Members
<div class="IPBDescription">nerf them or get rid of them</div>what happend to the time when you had some respect from entering a hive. its not as deadly to hang around a hive location anymore as it used to be. in ns2 one single marine just walks into mordor and starts whacking eggs making it sometimes impossible to spawn there, before flamethrower tech alien offensive structures are kinda effective, but not realy, and the hive itself isnt really signaling "iminent threat" in fact its like a neon sign yelling "whack a mole", and as soon they show up with flamethrowers, a single marine without backup can hang around a hive like a kid in a candystore, setting the whole place on fire, just having to watch stuff go "splat". spawning there trying to drive them off makes them laugh i guess.. i laugh when i set these puny skulks on fire when they try to defend the undefendable..they go blind by the flames and hop around like retards before they die within seconds.
back in ns1 hive locations used to give me that paranoid feeling of getting backstabbed any second by some alien if im not quiet, and wait for the com to send me backup. in ns2 i just happen to to notice that theres a hive location "oh wow..what a silly place to have a hive.. lets poke it" its not as thrilling as it used to be
the damn hive has tentacles, let it use them like weaker whips at least or give it spore clouds. a place i dont really even want to get to close to it.
flame throwers, make them less of a fire and forget weapon against aliens and structures. you just swipe a room with a burst and everything takes damage over the duration of which it burns plus it has so much fuel that you dont really have to conserve ammo. you just burn that place crispy. i would say reduce flamer ammo, or make the flamer weaker at all, its already nerfing alien vision.
flame thrower =support weapon, not main strike force , see lerk /spores /umbra
use flamethrowers to do additional area damage/impair vision while marines with lmgs do the main damage
..just imagine jetpackers with flamethrowers right now, wth.. i hope they make the jetpackers only be able to carry lmg´s and shotguns
back in ns1 hive locations used to give me that paranoid feeling of getting backstabbed any second by some alien if im not quiet, and wait for the com to send me backup. in ns2 i just happen to to notice that theres a hive location "oh wow..what a silly place to have a hive.. lets poke it" its not as thrilling as it used to be
the damn hive has tentacles, let it use them like weaker whips at least or give it spore clouds. a place i dont really even want to get to close to it.
flame throwers, make them less of a fire and forget weapon against aliens and structures. you just swipe a room with a burst and everything takes damage over the duration of which it burns plus it has so much fuel that you dont really have to conserve ammo. you just burn that place crispy. i would say reduce flamer ammo, or make the flamer weaker at all, its already nerfing alien vision.
flame thrower =support weapon, not main strike force , see lerk /spores /umbra
use flamethrowers to do additional area damage/impair vision while marines with lmgs do the main damage
..just imagine jetpackers with flamethrowers right now, wth.. i hope they make the jetpackers only be able to carry lmg´s and shotguns
Comments
Coupled with a fire-proof update for aliens or a general combat nerf of the flamethrower it will be more of a tactical-tool rather than a fearsome weapon. Much like the welder from back in the days.
tl,dr: Flamethrower will change from weapon to tool once DI makes it in.
Would work basically like a shotgun except with extra utility purposes and a different damage type, as well as reduced range.
Which still makes it annoying to fight against and overpowered, you just hope nobody uses it.
Balancing by cost is not a good idea.
But much will change!
x DI as stated above, the flamethrower can be the primary weapon against it, maybe nerf damage it does to players and keep it as a anti-DI/building tool. On players it would be more of a support weapon like the lerk gas.
x Onos isn't quite in the game yet....
x more balancing to do
Wonder if the exoskeleton and double miniguns still are planned tho.. :D
Real flamethrowers require a backpack to carry the fuel. That could make it incompatible with jet-packs. Maybe consider adding the visual of a fuel backpack to the marines that equip a flamethrower (whether or not they have the FT out at the time).
This could also act a balancing factor. Flamethrowers, due to the backpack, are rather bulky, and don't allow for easy movement. Marines with flamethrowers could be slower and/or are unable to sprint (whether or not they have the FT is current upholstered weapon). This makes them rely on other marines to cover them, and they can't steamroll on their own.
I don't mind the speed at which the flamethrower currently rapes skulks. It just the blinding visual effect needs to be toned down a bit more. At least give the skulks a chance to do SOMETHING.
I also like the idea that a fade blinking should put out the fire. It would act as pressure valve to ensure that the flamethrower is not the end all assault weapon it is now.
Another counter to think about is the lerks poison cloud. Maybe the compounds in the cloud quickly reacts with oxygen, suffocating the oxygen out of the air (one of the reasons its posionous), and rendering the flamethrower unable to fire while the user is inside the cloud. Either that OR an upgraded gorge heal spray where the gorge emits a AOE heal cloud, that of course heals all aliens around the gorge, and also continuously puts out fires.
I believe the flamethrowers current damage is fine (we should wait for anti-fire armor upgrade to make final judgment). Flamethrowers are scary weapons, and they should be scary in game. Its simply that right now they are too useful for almost ALL situations...and perhaps too inexpensive.
I agree once DI comes out, its usefulness will be made apparent, and all these nerfs we are all suggesting won't stop marines from using them.
also: there are currently no real counters to flame throwers. lerks almost since they can keep their distance, but it'd be nicer if lerk spores extinguished flames, or even made the flamethrower not work entirely. this would completely remove an entire team of flamethrowers wiping out the map since they'd require backup, and it'd also remove the power of a lone marine with a FT.
tl;dr: make spores extinguish flames, or prevent FT from working at all from inside spores.
But much will change!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The marines in the game i commed yesterday hated the new gl. And after a full evaluation i see <u>NO</u> reason at all for researching it. (btw their's no point in putting down even 1 sentry. They are useless once you establish a strong marine start and weaker secondary bases which are more like decoy bases to keep the fades occupied).
I find i'm hurting myself everytime i use it (and i'm not shooting at my feet or at aliens!... i'm shooting at alien structures 10 ft away... it takes a lot of shots to destroy all the structures and i couldn't "bounce shots around a corner" and expect them to land ANYWHERE near where i wanted them (with like 7 shots of ammo, theirs no freedom to MISS with even 1 grenade... maybe give marines 30 grenades, like ns1, and it might work?)... therefore i have to stand there, a good distance away, waiting forever for the weapon to load+fire and waiting even longer for the ###### grenade to explode while i watch my armor go down approx 20 per shot... don't forget that because of the new bounce ###### that it takes a few shots to figure out how to bounce the grenade to land where you want it. This wasn't so bad in ns1 because that gl was semi-auto + 6 shot magazine + tons of ammo in reserve, i.e. it was way better then the new gl,... but bounce fire simply doesn't work with a single-shot slow-reload rifle-mounted grenade launcher).
<b>Better alternatives for destroying structures:</b>
The rifle when fired 1-2 bullet at a time will register very well on structures and be very effective with 1 point of damage per shot (you can take out a whip in like 1.5 magazines of rifle ammo in this way... or you can spend 4 magazines in full auto to do the same like all the other uninformed marines).
The shotgun when you run up to a whip and fire at its base can take out a whip in approx. 5-6 shots.
Get your teammates to help you and the job gets done even faster.
Get your com to get you ammo+health and you would be even more successful.
###### the gl it sucks now. The devs are just reaching back into ns1 to copy an old version of the idea when they hear the aliens whine, and they're just repeating NS1's mistakes, while making all new ones, imho. Remove the new gl from the game... we don't need it.
<b>Flamethrower:</b>
The only weapon marines have against fades that's worth researching [it's actually quite nerfed against alien structures and hives... it's strictly anti-personal from the feel of it]. It's so central to marine combat and marine victory right now (given the nerf of the rifle and shotgun against higher lifeforms) that any flamethrower nerf will effectively nerf the marines ability to win the late game. If the aliens get some sort of fire-proofing upgrade, that the alien com researches like 3 minutes into the game and about 10-20 minutes before marines even get flamethrower, then once again the marines will have yet another weapon that doesn't need to be researched. Hey i guess we won't need 2 ccs after all :)
Also what's this bs with alien structures that auto build? And maybe just maybe we can add heavies, miniguns, and other marine capabilities before nerfing every early-game weapon the marines have?
Grenades dont do enough damage to buildings, because I always find that i'm running out of ammo for them. It takes 4 grenades to kill a whip.
they're still worth researching because they can bounce around corners, but they need to fix the bug where grenades don't detonate properly (maybe they get stuck inside a wall and the blast doesn't go through?)
I was very concerned during the original announcement of flamers that no consideration was given to the alien team. Many of the suggestions in this thread are good ones, here is a mix of those and mine:
1) add explodable fuel tanks on flamer using player's back
2) let lerk spores snuff flame
3) force flamers to burst fire (maybe a heat gauge that forces cooldown)
4) let gorge heal spray also extinguish flames
5) lower "burning damage" to players
6) when on fire, boost alien player movement, attack speed by 15%
7) force FF on for flamers
8) lower range of flamers
9) lower clip size for flamers
10) dramatically lessen burning vision impairment
11) add melee attack to flamer
I'd say just implement ALL of those changes and use it as a baseline. Because right now flamers are so off-kilter they are a completely game winning technology, and horrible to fight against. Like, Geneva convention horrible.
I was very concerned during the original announcement of flamers that no consideration was given to the alien team. Many of the suggestions in this thread are good ones, here is a mix of those and mine:
1) add explodable fuel tanks on flamer using player's back
2) let lerk spores snuff flame
3) force flamers to burst fire (maybe a heat gauge that force cooldown)
4) let gorge heal spray also extinguish flames
5) lower "burning damage" to players
6) when on fire, boost alien player movement, attack speed by 15%
7) force FF on for flamers
8) lower range of flamers
9) lower clip size for flamers
10) dramatically lessen burning vision impairment
11) add melee attack to flamer
I'd say just implement ALL of those changes and use it as a baseline. Because right now flamers are so off-kilter they are a completely game winning technology, and horrible to fight against. Like, Geneva convention horrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
honestly flamethrower is not that bad now...as long as you're not lerk/gorge/skulk (all tier 1 lifeforms) you are fine...fades are surprisingly hard to kill with flamethrowers now.
But should cost 100 res, and only two per team max.
At the moment the weapons have no character - essentially you run around spraying everything.
What should happen is that one guy spends a lot of money, stands outside the hive room (because the flame is too hot) and fires a long hot stream inside.
You should have to defend him before he gets on location, because in small spaces it is too dangerous to fire.
Also, he should not run when firing and turn slowly.
Things just need to be 'that much more' cinematic.
Hard limiting is the sign of a broken game mechanic. If they are to be expensive, why the hard limit?
<!--quoteo(post=1813427:date=Dec 4 2010, 05:34 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Dec 4 2010, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1813427"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, he should not run when firing and turn slowly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Turning slowly isn't feasible because users can configure their mouse sensitivity independent of the game.
Could always make the marine turn into a tank turret, slowing down the mouselook like that works pretty well... Kinda lame though...
GL is pretty worthless right now. It seems like it has gone from one extreme to the other with this patch. I liked how it was in NS1 with the rotary GL (not the clip fed version they tried out). It had a decent wait time on reloading, was great against structures, and good against gorges, skulks, and any lerk unlucky to be on the ground. If I were to do it over I would make it less effective against Onos and Fades, and perhaps mute the damage when aliens have upgraded their armor.
The FT on the other hand should be less effective against structures. It needs a shorter range. In real life they were good to 30-40 feet, but since the maps are supposed to be small it would be the ultimate weapon. In this case limit it to 10-15 feet max. It should be very effective against skulks, gorges, and lerks without upgraded armor. Ineffective against the onos and moderately effective against the fade.
As I see it you would have:
LMG - Basic weapon
Shotgun - Anti-fade does great damage against onos, but unless their are several rines you won't live long enough to kill it.
FT - Skulks, Lerks, and Gorges
HMG - Tone down the rate of fire to make it tougher to hit fast moving targets, but up the damage so its highly effective against the Onos and structures.
GL - Best against structures. Works well against skulks, lerks, and gorges but decrease the damage radius to prevent spamming into the hive and killing eggs as easy.
It would give the weapon feel, but also burn everything to a crisp.
But should cost 100 res, and only two per team max.
At the moment the weapons have no character - essentially you run around spraying everything.
What should happen is that one guy spends a lot of money, stands outside the hive room (because the flame is too hot) and fires a long hot stream inside.
You should have to defend him before he gets on location, because in small spaces it is too dangerous to fire.
Also, he should not run when firing and turn slowly.
Things just need to be 'that much more' cinematic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, to be honest. The flamethrower should be more of a tool than a weapon.
As it is, the flamethrower fulfills a similar role to the shotgun.
Rather than making the flamethrower an uber shotgun that also does DoT, it should be more of a tool, a piece of equipment used for removing DI.
The shotgun should be able to handle everything from Skulks to Fades, FT should be for clearing infestation.
Edit: Afan also made a superb point.
Fades dominate the game yet you hear next to nothing about that, only the flamethrower.
Also I agree with wolfs post on the first page as well.
Fades dominate the game yet you hear next to nothing about that, only the flamethrower.
Also I agree with wolfs post on the first page as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, I couldn't hardly kill a marine after he got a FT. Why, cause I still get completely blinded. Not fun running into walls trying to attack or run away....
As skulk i can take out a group of 3marines (until they get flamethrowers) - alone. (done it many times)
As marine i can be happy if i win a 1v1 situation against a single skulk.
Sure it can be fast - ~4hits with secondary fire @pistol or 1-2shotgun hits, but usually its like that
~ 1,5-2 mags for lmg (lmg spreads so much, it's like a drunken American shooting a machine gun from the hip)
~ up to 1 full shotgun
~ GL - dont even try it... pure luck.
~ 1-2mag pistol
But thats only the basic lifeform of the aliens.
For a Fade you need a little group, or lots of luck/or a fail/noob fade - that was ok in ns1... But in ns2 there isnt only 1,2 fades at a time its usually 4-5 at a time (depending on maxplayer/server ofc) - and if they die, they usually come back as fade again.
I really hope the devs just ignore overall balance mostly for now, and work on finishing the game. Fixing the crazy flamethrower and gl from before was fine, but you cant balance a game by playing a couple pub games, it needs to be much more organized to do that.
And skulks can still be killed very quickly if you hit all your shots, its only like 16-20 lmg rounds with the current spread. It seems hitreg is very dependent on getting good updates and ping.
Bringing in real world restraints is a good thing... because it provides character and feel for the weapons, but most importantly character and strategy to how you make use of them.
Currently everything 'feels' very similar.
Does anyone actually 'get off' on firing the flame thrower (I know I do not)... or is it actually just a LMG but with more damage and no requirement to aim?
For me, the idea of making it not only cooler in how it is used, but also more realistic would add a lot more to the experience.
<b>A scenario:</b>
Imagine being dropped one by the commander, and then sent to a way point along with a squad. Your aim is to silence the hive as quickly as possible.
The alien commander realises what is happening, and gets a squad of 2 Skulks and Lerk to intercept you.
Just before you reach the hive, your team mates open fire on the aliens.
You can not fire the weapon because the space is too enclosed, and your team mates are in front of you. So you have to trust that they have your back, or switch to pistol.
Your squad manages to take out the aliens, and you step up.
You bring out your flame thrower, and single the other two move back to guard the flank.
You open up into the hive room.
The force of the blast takes you back, and the heat from the flame distorts your view. The force of the flame feels unbalancing, aiming and moving forward slowly and with care.
The flame shoots out 12m+ and wreaks havoc on the alien structures, anything entering your path from the front is toast if you get a shot on. Just hope that a Onos is not around.
The chambers go down very quickly, 5 seconds a piece.
You start finishing on the hive, but as you do so a skulk from another hive manages to slip past your squad members from a vent and bites you in the back. You did not see it, or hear it. There was no time to put it away and switch to pistol.
Maybe next time, better start saving res commander.