Balance (Devs)
Runteh
Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Rockdown - Asymetric Level</div>Just sort of had a thought.
Considering you guys seem to be balancing this game a little more now based upon community feedback - why is this happening on such a 'pro alien'/asymmetric map?
Surely making a basic level that is symmetrical will make it easier to identify balance between the teams - rather than introducing the biases of an unbalanced space...
Also:
# Marines find it difficult to move out of their base because the sentry is useless and you still need to run back a lot - where as *whips* can kill marines easily.
# There is no effective way of taking down structures - this is effecting weapons balance (I am sure you know this, and will change) for marines - ARC needed asap.
Considering you guys seem to be balancing this game a little more now based upon community feedback - why is this happening on such a 'pro alien'/asymmetric map?
Surely making a basic level that is symmetrical will make it easier to identify balance between the teams - rather than introducing the biases of an unbalanced space...
Also:
# Marines find it difficult to move out of their base because the sentry is useless and you still need to run back a lot - where as *whips* can kill marines easily.
# There is no effective way of taking down structures - this is effecting weapons balance (I am sure you know this, and will change) for marines - ARC needed asap.
Comments
What game are you playing? Crags are defensive structures - I think you mean whips - that is unless babblers are working now
The point is if you are trying to balance a game (upgrade times/tiers/damage/etc) you really want to be doing it in as equal and unbiased atmosphere as possible...
What you're trying to say is that a symmetrical map could just be two alien favored maps sandwiched together. Which is true!
We should just get a balanced map and then make it symmetrical to make it larger. One point for rotational map symmetry is easy memorization. NS1 maps were very tough to memorize since everything was unique. Just memorizing one bit and then multiplying it is great.
The point is if you are trying to balance a game (upgrade times/tiers/damage/etc) you really want to be doing it in as equal and unbiased atmosphere as possible...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's certainly much easier to design levels if symmetry=balanced.
Generally designing an unbalanced level for unbalanced teams to produce balance is something you need a lot of scripting for, you do it for singleplayer but I would hate to have to do it for multiplayer.
Stuff like making sure you don't include really open areas or really long corridors is fine, but having to make the layout asymmetrical is kind of hard, because usually the first thing I do when building a layout is run through it with a stopwatch to time how long it takes each side to get places.
I also agree on the point that its very hard for the marines to take out structures.
Or a ready timer. Most games that require teams do have a ready mode like that until enough people have joined where you just run around shooting each other and then the game restarts with proper teams.
A combat style deathmatch mode with no hives or buildings and random spawns across the map until you have at least 3v3 would be a good addition I think.
As for symmetrical maps, they don't fit with the style of NS. They are just sections copy pasted over and I'm pretty sure Cory would have something to say about that.
Symmetrical maps don't have to be similar looking though, just a seemingly symmetry is good enough. Walking distances and stuffs :P
But as the teams are so divided and hard to balance as is, perhaps a rough (easy to run/high fps) map with a few tech points/res nodes would be a good idea for the beta testers? Even if it is fairly basic/bare.
Especially if you want to understand more precisely the speed of upgrades of the teams in relation to one another.
Currently on Rockdown there are hives that are closer and more accessible to aliens. Feedback on the forums since has been 'it is now more alien biased'. This is definitely a factor effecting things, as people are rarely playing tram (from what I can see).
But why on earth (as a developer) would you want to deal with team balance, when you have a multiplier such as distance or accessibility to tech/res nodes.
Of course there are thousands of situations that could occur, levels of skill, etc.. but this would at least remove an obstacle when trying to obtain a reasonable balance - and feedback.
I mean, this is an RTS game. It is more maths and strategy than your standard FPS.
As for symmetrical maps, they don't fit with the style of NS. They are just sections copy pasted over and I'm pretty sure Cory would have something to say about that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't have to make them actually symmetrical, you just make them functionally symmetrical, so that each side has the same access to expansions, resources, and strategically valuable positions. On a smaller basis you can make it so that each side has a similar number and distribution of strong ponts and cover and whatnot, although admittedly that is harder with the aliens and marines having very different ideas of cover and strong points.
What matters is the distances and times and that each side has strong places to balance out the opponent's strong places. Distances and times don't require actual mirror symmetry.
But if aliens are faster than marines to expand then you have to branch out alien territory to stop them grabbing it all at once, or you have to make aliens weaker so that their expansions are not very strong, one would require a mapping solution which would be hard to do and the other would require a stat balancing solution which would probably suck.
I find it hard to imagine that asymmetrical maps and teams could possibly be balanced, asymmetrical teams maybe, but it's really hard to make a map that gives no advantage to each side if you can't simply make it functionally symmetrical.
Wait, balance when we're missing vital anti-structure units has structures being OP? MADNESS
Wait, balance when we're missing vital anti-structure units has structures being OP? MADNESS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apart from the fact that the devs are now actively balancing things, even without all of it in game.
As they mentioned in one of they last release posts, they realise that people are seeing it as a 'released game'.
Just a suggestion, I know they do what they think is best anyway.
Anyone know where I can read/look at these in production maps?
Ignore the post above me it's a spambot
What's the point of identical walking distances when the teams don't even move at the same speed? Not to mention their spawns could be at any of the tech points on the map and not just opposite ends. Asymmetrical maps has worked great for NS so far.
And obviously they don't move at the exact same speed, but they don't differ all that much, especially in NS2 with sprint. A mini leaping skulk is not all that much faster then a sprinting marine, given that he can instantly attack and the marine has a small delay when he stops sprinting does give Skulky an edge though... Along with the fact it can take shortcuts trough vents, but that is part of his ambushing style of gameplay...
And L2 leaping Skulks, blinking fades and probably Lerks will be countered by jetpacks in the near future (I hope). So all in all they aren't all that dissimilar in terms of raw speed. The Fade is perhaps the only exception to this, because of it's instant blink ability...
Onos and Gorge are the slowpokes, and the Exoskeleton will probably join their ranks in terms of speed.
The biggest problem right now is that the marines have to stay in base to build some stuff first because the teams can't be that big due to performance probs. And the lovely spawn BUG doesn't help. While the aliens can basically run and gun right from the start. But even that will most likely change, probably making locking down west and east hives on Rockdown a thing of the past when marines are able to move out sooner (with bigger teams even more so)
On another note... If you really look at Rockdown, it looks asymmetrical if you glance at it. But east and west techpoints are about the same distance away from marinestart. The aliens have an edge due to the techpoint near them and the fact that the techpoints are a little bit closer to their hive, but other then that it is symmetrical...
You can literally move between south hive and west in two seconds.. If you go Lerk, you can fire at marines coming into south (down the ramp from vent) or hit those in the back going into west (looking down to the doorway from vent, going into west tech point from marine spawn direction).
Lerk on Rockdown is awesome, and once you learn all the vent locations... walk in the park.
I really love all the nooks and crannies in Rockdown, especially all those protection-nets up in the ceiling where you can leap up, fly up or Blink through. Spent probably over two hours just having fun learning how to Leap and find those places in a hurry ^^ Really beginning to like the stand-still Leap now once you actually know how it supposed to be used; as a way to quickly reach a ventilation, disappear somewhere in the ceiling or quickly engage an enemy.
Unfortunately Tram has a lot less of those hiding-places but I guess the size of the level makes up for that.
Jump/Leap combo and you're leaping like a NS1 Skulk
Huh, that's true... how long can they even balance the game before DI comes in to play? NS2 is all about territory so this is a key feature that really needs to be put in quite early in the development if it is actually required to have DI to be able to build structures.
Aw... damnit now I got excited about DI again -_-