remaking the Alien Commander and Gorge roles

weezl · November 2010

<div class="IPBDescription">giving Gorges more use, adding Asymmetry, while keeping alien comm</div>since the various alien structures have tons of abilities, there is no other way than having an alien commander using them in the most sneaky and insidious way.
this will make going up against alien territory, for marines, really unpredictable!

edit:
added some detailed clarification on this idea in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111628&st=0&gopid=1811889&#entry1811889" target="_blank">post #11</a>. but read this following post #1 "overview" first :)

problems i see:
-both sides have worker units (symmetry)
-gorges are pretty much useless (compared to NS1)

My ideas of how to solve:
-removing drifters
-exactly like marine buildings in NS1: commander places a "ghost structure" that gorges then have to build
-gorges can also build everything and wherever, but with own res
(-on infestation: structures are build-able without gorges, but (very) slow, gorges can help)

pros:
this way,
-commander is kept as "the mastermind (hivemind)" controlling abilities (the original reason for alien comm, right?)
-gorges keep their roles from NS1
-infestation gets another use
-this ADDS asymmetry now that marines build through MACs (which i have to admit are <i>kinda</i> logical for a technological race)

cons:
-can be disagreements when commander cannot force players to cooperate, but this has always been in NS, and simply restates teamwork importance.

inspired by this thread: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111624" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=111624</a>

Darkomicron · November 2010

I think either:
Gorges have to build everything (Put it down & Construct)
Or the commander has to put it down and the gorges construct.

What's the use of giving them both the ability to put structures down? Why would a gorge ever put a structure down, paid with his own resources (which can be used to morph into fade/onos!) if the commander can do it for 'free' (= team resources).

I think the whole alien commander idea is... just... not it... And I think the gorge should go back to like it was in NS1. Builds everything everywhere... But that's a different topic though. I do think the gorge needs to get some more responsibility.

deathshroud · November 2010

i would keep the drifters but instead dramatically slow down the growth time of a structure. So gorges using heal spray on the structure would speed up its growth substantially.

Bobby is going home · November 2010

The only reason for the Alien commander would then be to research uprades? If Gorges can build everything a commander should not really be necessary. There should be more then one Gorge running around doing their stuff, so keeping an eye on everything (as the comm is) is not really necessary if there is a minimum of communication on the Alien team.

All the Gorge needs is a bit of of variation in gameplay which would come by (for example) more bulding options. But if more building options means the same as the com then one of them is redundant. As the devs stated the Alien com is most likely to stay and the Gorge of course is to so this is not really an option.

They both need to find their respective field of "building activities", which they haven't found yet.

Raneman · November 2010

I think the commander system should be based off of Empires for HL2. The balance between player control and commander control was perfect.

weezl · November 2010

since the various alien structures have tons of abilities, there is no other way than having an alien commander using them in the most sneaky and insidious way.
this will make going up against alien territory, for marines, really unpredictable!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Darkomicron @ Nov 24 2010, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810034"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I think either:
Gorges have to build everything (Put it down & Construct)
Or the commander has to put it down and the gorges construct.

What's the use of giving them both the ability to put structures down? Why would a gorge ever put a structure down, paid with his own resources (which can be used to morph into fade/onos!) if the commander can do it for 'free' (= team resources).</div>
comm has much better overview, therefore he can plan better in some situations.
if gorges don't agree, they can place buildings themselves, but are not at all forced like you say. no change from NS1.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (deathshroud @ Nov 25 2010, 12:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>i would keep the drifters but instead dramatically slow down the growth time of a structure. So gorges using heal spray on the structure would speed up its growth substantially.</div>
they absolutely have to this!
but don't agree with healspray, in NS1 the gorge continually took stuff from it's mouth and put it "onto" the structure.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bobby is going home @ Nov 25 2010, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The only reason for the Alien commander would then be to research upgrades? If Gorges can build everything a commander should not really be necessary. There should be more then one Gorge running around doing their stuff, so keeping an eye on everything (as the comm is) is not really necessary if there is a minimum of communication on the Alien team.</div>
he would see the placement on the minimap.
and comming in NS is REALLY not APM intensive.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bobby is going home @ Nov 25 2010, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>All the Gorge needs is a bit of of variation in gameplay which would come by (for example) more bulding options. But if more building options means the same as the com then one of them is redundant. As the devs stated the Alien com is most likely to stay and the Gorge of course is to so this is not really an option.</div>
commander has strategic overview over a larger scale,
players on the field in FPS perspective, in a room, have a more tactical overview over a smaller scale.
so i think those two won't be redundant, but more likely synergetic.

RobB · November 2010

It's to limited if its like in empires, as that was the way marines played.

I'm going wild here, but I would like to see this tested:

* Alien Commander can drop structures on infection which are paid from the team pool
* Structures grow themself
* Gorges can speed com placed building growth up
* Gorges are able to create small puddles of infection near respoints
* Gorges can place hives and rts besides hydras (context sensitive ability, if theres no rt/hive and you are pointing at the respoint / techpoint, and have the res, its dropped, else you drop a hydra)

weezl · November 2010

if gorges aren't able to build everything, then the last point sounds really useful

exuvo · November 2010

I really like the idea with commander can only build on infestation, so gorge needs to expand it where the commander wants a building. I approve of the gorge role RobB suggests (can build the main buildings but not the tech ones).

Mr.InTeLeX · November 2010

Need some creep tumor for the gorge to build.

weezl · November 2010

to clarify what i had in mind for the ideas:

<span style="color:#9ACD32">in point #2</span>, gorges building commander placed structures:
not <i>exactly</i> like in NS1 but same concept, read on:

1. commander chooses the location by placing the structure, like marine comm in NS1. res cost is on commplayer (keeping with NS1 asymmetry).

2. a "ghost-structure" (in it's final built state) is visible for the alien team ONLY,
and has no collision (non-physical, unlike NS1 marine ghost buildings)

3. the gorge starts building ("usekey", not healspray) by spitting out a starting seed (like <a href="http://www.naturalselection2.com/storage/kharaa_gorge_concept.jpg" target="_blank">THIS concept art</a>)
which grows to full as the gorge "builds it NS1 style".
this is a physical structure with collision and is visible to ALL players.
as it grows, it's collision size increases in parallel. (when placed, a check with full coll. size has to be passed ofc)

this way it will look for the marines as the gorge suddenly "gets an order", like it's hivemind tells it what to do. fits very well with NS imo.
the building process looks natural to marines and not at all "out of place". this is also a unique mechanic separating NS2 from SC drones, as is now.

<span style="color:#9ACD32">point #3</span>, gorges building independently of comm

1. after selecting which structure to build, the gorge sees a ghost preview of the structure,
(whose placement is updated in real-time, just like the current NS2 hydra for the gorge)

2. the gorge uses it's own res for this. (OR maybe the gorge can (also/instead) <i>request</i> buildings from comm in this way)

3. building-process proceeds as previously mentioned.

this would keep the NS1 gorge role, and add a new one! - being the workers for the "hivemind" (replacing the current drifter role).
add strategic placement from a first-person-perspective, to placement planning from overview. both have strengths and weaknesses, complementing eachother.
solve any frustration where gorge players don't agree with comm.

maybe structures can be built (a bit) faster on DI.

hakenspit · November 2010

I agree that the gorge role needs work, as does the alien comm and shall throw in my 2 cents...

Firstly I always assumed that the gorge would have a way of spreading the infestation...would have been a cool adaption of say bile bombs. Perhaps the hydras could be incorporated into a localised infestation.

Also the hydras should create a light source that only aliens can see (as should the DI area), this would mean that when aliens chew power junctions they can offset teh blindness by having gorges build hydras. Would bring gorges in as a support role again but this time to add a lighting advantage for aliens (chewing couplings is a doubled edged sword currently for aliens).

I think the strongest point highlighted in the thread so far revolved around the gorge being able to build anywhere and comm only inside the infestation area. This idea I think has legs....

Buildings inside infestation should build slowly by themselves or a gorge can help. Any building outside of the infestation the gorges must build.

Gorge can build outside of infestation (whips, crags etc) but this is at cost to their own res (could be that when you evolve into a gorge you get x number of res points and then just accrue in line with others. So you can go and build outside of infestation but at your own cost.

Whilst as a gorge you still have all build options show up when in an infested area by trying to build it sends an alert to the comm who can approve/decline the building.

darktimes · November 2010

first of all, I personally would take the Floaters out of the game. they are too symmetrical with the MACs and are almost the same as Drones in SC2.

the alien commander should be able to only place buildings on Dynamic infestation with the team Pool. a instant drop of the structure, slowly growing to its max size. this could be explained that the Hive mind orders the Infestation on that spot to evolve and grow into the structure.
he can drop a "outline/plan" of the structure anywhere else, costing team Res, but a gorge has to build it.

Res nodes maybe a exception, but I get to that later.

now, here the gorge comes in: he can manually help build the structures build by the commander, speeding up their growth, or he can move out the map to...
1. spread DI
2. build front-line structures using his own res or, if the commander "planned" a structure, built it without using Res (the Comm already paid.)
2.a this includes all structures of the alien team, and some Gorge exclusives like the hydra.

now, I'm not sure if the commander should be able to place Res points or not. it would mean a great tactical and time saving, and possible exploit opening way to quickly take every node in the map.
wheras the alternative being that the DI has to creep to it until he can build it, or that a gorge does it.

weezl · December 2010

@hakenspit
@darktimes

like your posts very much, you agree almost fully with i wrote ;)

have two viewpoints:

gorge spreading DI can become a very tedious task the 10th time you do it IMO
maybe if it was something very quick and energy costly, so it would rarely be used, and has to be planned with care.
like spitting a continuous stream of DI-seed-liquid-something that sticks to surfaces and slowly starts growing.
while spitting, the energy would deplete fast, and it's not possible to trickle it out in small portions either.
just throwing out ideas here...

about RT:s, sounds logical to me that comm has to build them "through the gorge" while off of DI.
but comm can do whatever on DI with the drawback of it being slow, unless gorges help out.
are you perhaps asking who should PAY for RT:s outside of creep?

to summarize our ideas:
on DI:
- comm can build anywhere with teamres, but process is slow
- gorges can build, but with own res
- gorges can speed up comm-buildings

off DI:
- comm has to build "through gorges", with teamres
- gorges can build, but with own res

ScardyBob · December 2010

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (deathshroud @ Nov 24 2010, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810043"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>i would keep the drifters but instead dramatically slow down the growth time of a structure. So gorges using heal spray on the structure would speed up its growth substantially.</div>

This.

Also I would remove (or repurpose the crag) and make it so only the gorge can heal structures/other players. That way the comm still has a purpose (placing buildings).

Silverwing · December 2010

Here are my thoughts as I posted them on Getsatisfaction a while ago:
--
<b>Idea:</b> To get a bit closer to the ever lovable perma-Gorge, let Drifters build as they do but at a MUCH lower speed. Like 2 minutes for them to grow a Whip, and let the Gorge build structures but much more expensively.

Thus, if Alien team needs say, a whip there are 3 options:

1) Have a Gorge build it quickly and pay through the nose
2) Have a Drifter build it cheaply and wait forever
3) Have ACom and Gorge work together for a cheaper, faster Whip.

ACom-Gorge, Inc - <i>For a cleaner, cheaper future</i>

Twiggeh · December 2010

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Dec 16 2010, 10:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1816373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>This.

Also I would remove (or repurpose the crag) and make it so only the gorge can heal structures/other players. That way the comm still has a purpose (placing buildings).</div>

Actually that would make the armory-healing way to overpowered. The healing Crag is needed for balancing.

twiliteblue · December 2010

I'm under the impression that the Gorge was designed as a support class. They can heal, build static defense, speed up building construction and have an anti-structure weapon (Not Yet Implemented) like Bile Bomb in NS.

AI controlled builders is a good feature and should be available to both teams. It reduces the dependence of commanders on his team for menial tasks like building structures and welding.

Paul-Hewson · December 2010

And what the UWE team thinks about that ?

Harimau · December 2010

?
We'll find out, if they implement it or not.

I agree entirely with twiliteblue.

Price · December 2010

The Problem what i see is only the ability for gorges to build ressource towers and chambers.

So i would like if they allow gorge building:
- harvester
- whips
- craigs and the other chambers, just with the same price the alien commander would pay(incl. drifters).

louis cardinal · December 2010

drifters are too much of ns2.. removing drifters are like removing the MACs...

forget about it boys =) drifters are for the stay

Asmerv · December 2010

I would personally remove the alien commander concept entirely, but I don't think that's gonna happen

Wyattx3 · December 2010

It would be a mistake to remove the Alien commander, and implemet NS1 Gorge.

Maybe people have forgotten, or maybe I am mistaken, but I remember UWE saying the Gorge was going to be the primary player involved in spreading the DI.

The only example of something similar is in SCII, the Zerg Queen unit, that spreads the creep, heals units, and assists the hive in other ways.

I have alot of faith in UWE, and I think for good reason, I hope they continue with their plan... as the new gorge sounds like alot more fun.

sheena_yanai · December 2010

i say i miss the asymetry of ns1, sure, this is a attempt on redesigning the gameplay, sure, the old way was realy hard to balance, but this is just a bit to symetric. i say get rid of the macs , the entire marine team can build buildings, while on the alien side there are only gorges able to asist, drifters should take the role of macs for the aliens to asist gorges, healing and building. the gorge realy feels kinda useless now, being degraded to a healer suport class with only having one dropable building. maybe there should be mini dcÂ´s and mini whips for gorges, having like half the effect of the large ones, just to have something for the gorge in the field to drop when required, because you cant always rely on the hive commander. maybe make these mini building upgradeable by the hive comander for like half the building costs of a regular building, because the gorge already spent his resources on the initial building, that way orges could work more closely together with a comander aswell , and you dont have to waste drifters for building something

Harimau · December 2010

Just gonna quote myself from the other thread:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Dec 28 2010, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The alien commander was primarily introduced for the purpose of <u>scalable balance</u> (<i><b>especially</b> in regards to the resource model</i>). NS1 was balanced for 6v6. Lower than that, aliens had an advantage; higher than that, marines had an advantage. NS2 <b>can't</b> be the same.

[...]
Drifters are definitely a flawed concept at the moment, though. Too fragile, and you need one drifter consumed to build something (and you have to control and escort that drifter) - at least that's how I understand it, is that right? I haven't been able to spend much time playing aliens (mostly skulk, and lerk). Maybe you could instead have a completed alien building <b>regenerate a drifter upon completion</b>.</div>

I like the idea that gorges place all defensive structures - I was under the impression that it does that anyway, but apparently I was mistaken (just hydras, then). So, in absence of the ability to place the full structures, I like the idea that gorges can place mini-structures (crags, whips, shifts; in addition to hydras). Maybe when DI is brought in, it will change the dynamic, though:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Dec 28 2010, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819798"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><span style="color:gray">Also, my understanding (or hope; or let's take it as a suggestion) of DI was that it would <i>expand from alien structures</i>, <b>rather than</b> DI being <i>a requirement to place alien structures</i>. The exact opposite. I mean, how annoying would it have to be to wait for creep in order to place a res node or a hive?</span>
However, <i>some</i> important structures should only be able to be placed on DI, though; and/or some structures only fully operate on DI (so you could still spam whips and crags for defense and such, but for it to have the chamber effects it'll need to be on DI). <span style="color:gray">Essentially it ties into that concept of 'contested territory' again.
The floor and walls of alien start should begin covered in DI.</span></div>
Perhaps give the alien commander and gorge both the ability to drop those "chambers", then.

Nik · January 2011

I feel very strongly about losing the asymmetry in NS, as it is the one thing that drew me to the game. However that being said, lets work with what we have now:

We do have alien commanders and we do have gorges. Right now, gorges can only build hydras and heal -> kind of boring. I'd suggest to let the gorges place RTs and other chambers for their own points or whatnot. This way a gorge can once again build up his own little empire of buildings and control an area of the map all by his lonesome (given enough time and support from his team mates). This is what is most fun about the gorge, I think.

PsiWarp · January 2011

One rare problem with Kharaa gameplay currently is the inability to recover with Carbon depleted and all Harvesters destroyed. Frontiersmen can recycle any structure to break the Carbon deadlock, while Kharaa cannot do anything to counteract (basically screwed).

Perhaps allow Gorges to plop Harvesters for 15 Plasma? After all, Recycle adds resource into Marine team pool for all sorts of other stuff.

weezl · January 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (louis cardinal @ Dec 24 2010, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>drifters are too much of ns2.. removing drifters are like removing the MACs...
forget about it boys =) drifters are for the stay</div>

not necessarily!
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=110837&view=findpost&p=1820540" target="_blank">this thing</a> that is supposed to be a drifter doing the SC2-style drone building but with building growing from miniature size to full like i also suggested in his thread. It's all already modelled and animated and ready to be put into the game as soon as inferred rendering (transparency) is added. So yes it can seem that too much has been put into drifters to drop them...
BUT, what i'm getting to is, that this can with minimal effort be reworked to something that comes from <a href="http://www.naturalselection2.com/storage/kharaa_gorge_concept.jpg" target="_blank">THIS concept art</a>.

i imagine:
gorge spits out a "seed" that grows into the "drifter coccon" seen above, which then proceeds to incubate the new building (as already is programmed).
this is for both gorge-personal-building and com-through-gorge-building.

in the case of commander building by himself on DI, a lump forms (something similar to the gorge seed) and from there does the same thing as above.

as for aliens getting "no-res-stuck",
why not let tech points produce resources like any RT but maybe at half speed.
then marines would maybe want to hold a second CC instead of: rushing 2nd CC, upg base, rec, camp+tech.
and aliens could rush for many hives, punishement will be slower res, but not 1 single RT slow.

Codeine · February 2011

What about the issue of say 2 ppl going gorge and 2 ppl in the hive, thats 4 people basically ineffective , marines will out number aliens easily. And with shotguns flamers, rockets, theres no chance.

Anyone find the maps to be a little claustrophobic? theres barely any room to leap around.

lifesfun · February 2011

I really enjoyed the ns1 style gorge however, i think the game is set on an alien commander and a less important gorge.

Here are some things to to think about for ideas:

I play a lot of sc2 and i see alot of similarities of the queen and the gorge in ns2.

For DI I think maybe it should be spread the same way as in sc2. I have found that the commander now ends up creating way too much DI late game and will in the future. Option one: the gorge should be able to create DI tumors on DI like the creep tumors in SC. Or option two the gorge can create DI tumors anywhere. For the commander the drifter can turn into a DI tumor too. This again has two options either tumors from drifters can only be placed on DI or can be placed anywhere its placed.

Buildings have to be built on creep except for hives (and maybe rts). i think SC2 has a good system for this already and maybe could be used as inspiration for NS2 dynamic infestation roles. One advantage of a gorge pushing creep with tumors is create a front line affect that makes the team mates defend the front edge of the DI. Also, this reinforces battles to be over map control as well as well tech points. Also if rts can only be put on DI then a mobile creep tumor will make make people want to create a mobile defense location like in ns1. Thus, the gorge would aid the commander in gaining map control so the commander can use the drifters to create buildings.

As for the gorge the DI tumors can give him a viable role in NS2. The other roles for the gorge would be healing and hydras. Also we do not feel that is enough for the gorge here are some more ideas, some that have been said already, that could give more purpose to a gorge:

Help assist build tumors and other buildings
assist in drifter production
bile bomb for killing structures
request commander to put down structures
build ghost structures
access the over mind remotely
build a redundant but important buildings that the commander can build(rts,hives, or whips)- more ns1 style

- some of these i dont like personally, but its just all the possibilities i can think of

The last thing I do not like currently is that gorge can create unlimited hydras. I think buildings should always cost something otherwise Idont feel like I am making anything. One idea is to make DI tumors and hydras could to cost money or another ideas is that the tumors and hydras can be created after certain time like queens in SC2 so you cannot spam creep or hydras too fast. This makes an area become more of a commitment like in ns1.

So my personal view for the gorge and DIis:
-create DI tumors like creep tumors in SC2 except can be place anywhere. Which are made by gorges or drifter
-hives like hatcheries in SC2 can be place off DI
-have the gorge heal players and speed up the creation of structures and DI
-gorges can create hydras (maybe be able to move the hydras to push the edge of the DI; of course the whip can do this so maybe not)
-Make the the gorge use plasma to create his structures (hydras and DI tumors)

remaking the Alien Commander and Gorge roles

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