I highly prefer grid and consider it superior in all aspects. I find it easier to learn and easier to use. My preference would be to have grid as the default and allow letters as an option. If letters is default, then grid would need to be an option.
Definitely go with Grid, but don't make the same mistake SC2 did - put the buttons in places that are actually convenient for grid layout, and not just an arrangement that looks nice. SC2 puts all its active abilities on the bottom row for example, and most of the useless ones on the top row. The bottom row is inconvenient to press and should be left empty until the top two are full, except for stuff like recycling that should be hard to press by accident.
I vote for grid. With a layout designed with grid hotkeys in mind. Also, make sure that they are keyboard layout independant. For example I'm using the Colemak layout and I imagine there's a few using Dvorak (and even more using AZERTY).
There's bound to be inconsistencies if you go with the first letter route... I'd rather everyone were just defaulted to a grid system for efficiency, instead of having to figure out which buildings/upgrades <i>aren't</i> by their first letter.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
GRID by a long shot
in SC2 its really annoying having to move your left hand all over the keyboard very quickley - so much so that i don't use hotkeys in that game cause i cbf spending so much time on it
In my opinion, the grid system was pretty solid and innovative for the RTS genre.
(Seriously) taking into account that I'm not really good in RTS usually, but that the important statistic of a good RTS player is the number of actions per seconds you can deploy.
With the grid, you could just lay your hand there and drop all the stuff pretty fast. Since there isn't That much elements and that you can regroup similar items into sub-groups, the grid would still be very effective.
To the point of memorizing letters or grid items there isn't going to be much faster way, both will require about the same amount of playtime ..
So my vote goes for the grid, since it was so genuine to NS and effective to me.
I think it's important to have the Grid system as default. The letter system maybe a traditional RTS staple, and it may seem intuitive, but it is far less efficient and has a higher learning curve and gets messier as you get deeper into commanding.
It's important that new players and commanders start learning with Grid, so that they don't learn one inefficient system and feel forced to switch late in the game or stick with the messy system they started with, only once they've grown almost-comfortable with it. If they start with Grid then it will be the easier, intuitive mechanism for them.
And the Letter system is not as intuitive and simple as it seems, even before you get to commands starting with the same letter. The thought process for Letter involves: "What letter does it start with/What letter is the hotkey? -> Where is that key on the keyboard?" If the grid is mapped out visually you'll actually process it much faster. As the entire process is visual and motor it'll just be muscle memory at work, while the Letter system will still have that tiny thought process in between. Grid only becomes easier if you don't have to mouse-over and the letters are shown right in the corners of the grid.
I've never heard of grid before and have always played RTS with letters (NS had grid? Well, I hardly ever commanded a game), so I'm leaning toward letters. I don't think it'd be a big switch for me to learn the grid. My only concern is that my memory might easily confuse different buildings/upgrades that use the same hotkey but are in separate nests (I occasionally get the buildings in build and advanced build in SC2 mixed up).
I would highly prefer that all active abilities use the same few keys though. qwer, zxcv, something like that.
I never liked the grid stuff and i will never learn this :( Letters are easier and faster imo, because with the grid you still have to look on the commander ui, with letters you just press a for armory - this is while still learning. Even if you're experienced it's still better with letters: With the grid system it's very easy to confuse yourself in all the different menus (structure, units, build, hive etc) because all the keys are the same. For example: while the observatory is selected you pressed the button for an upgrade-menu not far enough (so it didn't count) and don't notice it in time, so instead of selecting the motion tracking upgrade you press the hotkey that activates the beacon (because in the grid system it would be the same button) (it's just an example. i don't know anything about the obs yet) Actually i can remember only two games where i was a commander but anyway...
edit: I just imagined...in case of grid i think i wouldn't use hotkeys at all. Because by accidentally recycling a fully upgraded armslab you don't only ruin your own game but the one of everybody else in your team so.... better don't risk this and look at the ui and safely click your way to victory (or rather failure)
<!--quoteo(post=1809458:date=Nov 23 2010, 10:11 PM:name=dvide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dvide @ Nov 23 2010, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Neither of these approaches are necessarily correct. You need to actually design a setup that is enjoyable to play, rather than merely stick to 'letters' or 'grid' indiscriminately. In the letters approach for example it's wrong to just chose a key that is free and think that it will suffice. Consider the classic starcraft 1 setup which was what you might describe as 'letters'. For a Protoss player making pylons and probes required the use of the 'P' key, which was at the wrong side of the keyboard. Making zealots was on Z. This forced good protoss players to have to use 8,9,0 hotkeys for their nexuses so they could make probes and pylons easier. Then they would actually have to switch hand positions when they went to macro their army or control their forces.
Starcraft 2's default shortcut setup smartly moved all common keys close to the left side of the keyboard. So probes and pylons are now on E. This is not 'grid', nor is it 'letters'. It's far more important that you consider things like this and design the defaults appropriately, rather than thinking that you need to make the shortcut keys 'easy to learn'. The fact is that learning shortcut keys is not difficult no matter where they are on the keyboard. It just isn't. You learn it once through play and then you'll pick it up very quickly.
Grid has it's own problems in that it also applies the shortcuts indiscriminately. For example, in Starcraft 2 using grid means that common functions such as zerg's 'select larvae' is on Q. But I don't want to have to keep hitting this with my pinky finger when I'm spamming to select my larvae throughout the game. It's far better for it to be in a good location like S that I can hit with a nice finger. So in this case you can use 'letters', but it is secondary to the key's prime location on the keyboard. Also, all of the unit spell abilities like storm, fungal growth are on the bottom row indiscriminately. This makes it slightly worse to cast a psi storm for example, instead of hitting '3+T' which is easy. 3 being where you might hotkey your high templars, of course.
Also merely the fact that they are on a grid I don't even think makes it any easier to learn at all. It sounds like it would, but when I see the command card I can't immediately associate a command's location with the appropriate keyboard button. I still have to actually learn what the button is in the normal way. But maybe that's just the way my brain works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This. Is a great post. Read it and believe it=)
I've used gridkeys for every RTS I have played. It just streamlines hot key usage. In the end it is mappable so it doesn't really matter. SC2's option method is probably the best choice.
It relates to what is on screen - easier to learn, more intuitive.
Especially if the QWER, ASDF, ZXCV are displayed next to the button for the first 10 games or so. If you can adopt a system that makes a player learn in a certain way, all the better.
You also have to remember though, that some people will never or rarely use hot keys. This should also influence the GUI outcome.
I'd vote for grid. Like NS1. I'd rather memorize the positioning of the structures than the assigned letter to the structure. Since I'm not an english native speaker, I might press a wrong key because my brain was thinking in spanish (it happened to me LOADS of times in SC2).
1) Much faster and easier to learn across races. There should be purely aesthetic differences though, like alien infestation/small orangeish light pods creeping over the alien commander ui, and mechanical/nano-electric doodads on the marine commander hud. You can get really creative with the cosmetic differences.
2) You should be able to do every function a commander needs to do without having to click any buttons. Keep it close to how it works in NS1. Of course you can still click that little med/ammo/order icon, but it shouldn't be necessary. The best comms will learn all the grid keys and be able to do everything very efficiently and quickly.
3) <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Please, please fix it so that you won't recycle any buildings on accident by hitting the "V" key too many times!!! :P</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Ideally you should implement both as an option for both players, but implement grid first as its the fastest and easiest to learn.
I would be satisfied with either grid or letters (assuming the letter mode was more like SC2 than SC1), but I would use grid if it was available. What's more important to me is that anything I bound to a commander hotkey be disabled while commanding. For instance I have X bound to voice chat, I don't want voice chat popping in and out when I press X. Just disable that and I'll use whatever my secondary key binding is to chat.
either way, be aware that there are different keyboardlayouts of different countries. StarCraft II still didn't manage to adapt the grid key to the german layout, qwertz istead of querty. The grid doesn't work there properly because the y and the z key are switched.
Letters are harder to remember if two options have the same starting letter. With grid, I'm a visual learner and can remember the image of a Comm UI and then map it to the keyboard so take that with a grain of salt.
Definatly the GRID system! I've never been very good at RTS games, one of my biggest problems was to use hotkeys for all the building stuff. However in NS1 I (at least that's what I think) did quite well - and this has to do with the GRID system. For me it was very intuitive, using WASD I could basically "walk" through the menues as I walk through a map. It's faster and the "chance to miss" the right key is lower. Letter system should however be in the game as an alternative option (GRID being default) because soe players will simply expect it to be there "because most RTS games do it this way" (wich isn't really a good argument imho)
EDIT: Agree with "take out recycling out of the grid". Accidently recycling lead to some of my most epic failures at comming in NS1. Also I think the build menu should actually be on the left side of the UI so it coresponds to the default QWERT(Z/Y) grid.
<!--quoteo(post=1809458:date=Nov 23 2010, 04:11 PM:name=dvide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dvide @ Nov 23 2010, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><lots of stuff about letter hotkeys but putting ergonomics above matching keyboard letters to letters in the word><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Excellent idea, follow SC2's lead here!
Also, best first post in the history of first posts: dvide!
Grid because I only really use my left hand for hotkeys. Having to go over and hit "O" for "Observatory" will only slow me down. My right hand is usually on the mouse.
I prefer the grid setup, I would also think it would be nice to have the ability to setup a custom key for every building, and or slot in the console. Being a dvorak keyboard user hotkeys can be very frustrating in games.
Comments
My preference would be to have grid as the default and allow letters as an option. If letters is default, then grid would need to be an option.
in SC2 its really annoying having to move your left hand all over the keyboard very quickley - so much so that i don't use hotkeys in that game cause i cbf spending so much time on it
(Seriously) taking into account that I'm not really good in RTS usually, but that the important statistic of a good RTS player is the number of actions per seconds you can deploy.
With the grid, you could just lay your hand there and drop all the stuff pretty fast. Since there isn't That much elements and that you can regroup similar items into sub-groups, the grid would still be very effective.
To the point of memorizing letters or grid items there isn't going to be much faster way, both will require about the same amount of playtime ..
So my vote goes for the grid, since it was so genuine to NS and effective to me.
I like the Grid System, Especially "B" for tha Back or Recycle, it is far away from the others.
I think it is easy to set keys for the QWERT grid system then Letter and also Custom.
All 3 options would be much more general.
It's important that new players and commanders start learning with Grid, so that they don't learn one inefficient system and feel forced to switch late in the game or stick with the messy system they started with, only once they've grown almost-comfortable with it. If they start with Grid then it will be the easier, intuitive mechanism for them.
And the Letter system is not as intuitive and simple as it seems, even before you get to commands starting with the same letter. The thought process for Letter involves: "What letter does it start with/What letter is the hotkey? -> Where is that key on the keyboard?"
If the grid is mapped out visually you'll actually process it much faster. As the entire process is visual and motor it'll just be muscle memory at work, while the Letter system will still have that tiny thought process in between.
Grid only becomes easier if you don't have to mouse-over and the letters are shown right in the corners of the grid.
I would highly prefer that all active abilities use the same few keys though. qwer, zxcv, something like that.
Letters are easier and faster imo, because with the grid you still have to look on the commander ui, with letters you just press a for armory - this is while still learning. Even if you're experienced it's still better with letters:
With the grid system it's very easy to confuse yourself in all the different menus (structure, units, build, hive etc) because all the keys are the same. For example: while the observatory is selected you pressed the button for an upgrade-menu not far enough (so it didn't count) and don't notice it in time, so instead of selecting the motion tracking upgrade you press the hotkey that activates the beacon (because in the grid system it would be the same button) (it's just an example. i don't know anything about the obs yet)
Actually i can remember only two games where i was a commander but anyway...
edit:
I just imagined...in case of grid i think i wouldn't use hotkeys at all. Because by accidentally recycling a fully upgraded armslab you don't only ruin your own game but the one of everybody else in your team so.... better don't risk this and look at the ui and safely click your way to victory (or rather failure)
Starcraft 2's default shortcut setup smartly moved all common keys close to the left side of the keyboard. So probes and pylons are now on E. This is not 'grid', nor is it 'letters'. It's far more important that you consider things like this and design the defaults appropriately, rather than thinking that you need to make the shortcut keys 'easy to learn'. The fact is that learning shortcut keys is not difficult no matter where they are on the keyboard. It just isn't. You learn it once through play and then you'll pick it up very quickly.
Grid has it's own problems in that it also applies the shortcuts indiscriminately. For example, in Starcraft 2 using grid means that common functions such as zerg's 'select larvae' is on Q. But I don't want to have to keep hitting this with my pinky finger when I'm spamming to select my larvae throughout the game. It's far better for it to be in a good location like S that I can hit with a nice finger. So in this case you can use 'letters', but it is secondary to the key's prime location on the keyboard. Also, all of the unit spell abilities like storm, fungal growth are on the bottom row indiscriminately. This makes it slightly worse to cast a psi storm for example, instead of hitting '3+T' which is easy. 3 being where you might hotkey your high templars, of course.
Also merely the fact that they are on a grid I don't even think makes it any easier to learn at all. It sounds like it would, but when I see the command card I can't immediately associate a command's location with the appropriate keyboard button. I still have to actually learn what the button is in the normal way. But maybe that's just the way my brain works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Is a great post. Read it and believe it=)
+1
Especially if the QWER, ASDF, ZXCV are displayed next to the button for the first 10 games or so. If you can adopt a system that makes a player learn in a certain way, all the better.
You also have to remember though, that some people will never or rarely use hot keys. This should also influence the GUI outcome.
1) Much faster and easier to learn across races. There should be purely aesthetic differences though, like alien infestation/small orangeish light pods creeping over the alien commander ui, and mechanical/nano-electric doodads on the marine commander hud. You can get really creative with the cosmetic differences.
2) You should be able to do every function a commander needs to do without having to click any buttons. Keep it close to how it works in NS1. Of course you can still click that little med/ammo/order icon, but it shouldn't be necessary. The best comms will learn all the grid keys and be able to do everything very efficiently and quickly.
3) <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Please, please fix it so that you won't recycle any buildings on accident by hitting the "V" key too many times!!! :P</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Ideally you should implement both as an option for both players, but implement grid first as its the fastest and easiest to learn.
<u>-Its fast!</u>
-No need to think what key that was
-You can more easily communicate with teammates with "push to talk" -hotkey system.
let the people decide by themselves!!!
I DONT WANT TO VOTE FOR THE LESSER EVIL!!!!11
lesson learned from the political, social and natural ULTRA MEGA HYPER FAIL of the might hungry puppet politicians .... AGAIN!
But as said, im a QWERTZ too... dont make us cry about the Z Y problems.
Edit:
And remove the recycle button out of this grid, make it another button... like DEL..
Letters are harder to remember if two options have the same starting letter. With grid, I'm a visual learner and can remember the image of a Comm UI and then map it to the keyboard so take that with a grain of salt.
I've never been very good at RTS games, one of my biggest problems was to use hotkeys for all the building stuff. However in NS1 I (at least that's what I think) did quite well - and this has to do with the GRID system. For me it was very intuitive, using WASD I could basically "walk" through the menues as I walk through a map. It's faster and the "chance to miss" the right key is lower. Letter system should however be in the game as an alternative option (GRID being default) because soe players will simply expect it to be there "because most RTS games do it this way" (wich isn't really a good argument imho)
EDIT: Agree with "take out recycling out of the grid". Accidently recycling lead to some of my most epic failures at comming in NS1.
Also I think the build menu should actually be on the left side of the UI so it coresponds to the default QWERT(Z/Y) grid.
Excellent idea, follow SC2's lead here!
Also, best first post in the history of first posts: dvide!