<!--quoteo(post=1806346:date=Nov 18 2010, 09:00 PM:name=Hush)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hush @ Nov 18 2010, 09:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with you. But like I said in my post. Majority of "modern" gamers don't understand what a real beta is. They'll see this and walk away, most likely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think this is a realistic situation. For a start NS2 isn't being marketed as a playable game, and this beta isn't being marketed as an opportunity to be playing the game before your friends.
They may well walk away, I certainly stopped bothering with the Alpha (and still continue to not worry too much about the Beta) due to the problems I have with lag, etc. I know others have the same. When that gets resolved and it can be productive for me to get involved I will again. For those less inclined to get involved to make the game the best it can be, they'll come back after walking away if the reviews and their friends say they should be checking out this awesome game.
It'll all come down to the actual finished product and final beta (that, as has been said, would be a soft release hype move). If it's outstanding no-one that's ###### and moaning right now will care unless they have been emotionally hurt by their own misunderstanding of what they paid for.
And to add to that particular camp, I don't care that this pre-order period has sucked for actual game play, I have faith that the devs will get it all sorted in the end and they've already shown in NS1 that they have the skill to make a great game. The pre-order is an investment in a long future for the game, not for access before an official release date.
for me the only problem i have with the game is connection issues. they are big issues, but hopefully something that can be fixed relatively soon. performance wise, the game runs just fine for me, even better than fine. i have an above average machine (core i7, gtx460, etc) but i feel like the game runs smoothly aside from lag.
that being said, i am really glad they released the beta. sure it might be one of the roughest betas seen, but like they said in their post, they set a date and they needed to stick to it. it helps them make sure they are making progress. i'm sure they know the beta rough, but if they keep pushing dates back we could see another year delay. this way they have more accountability. they have released the beta, the final phase before release. now the only deadline is release. they are simplifying their options. now they are forcing themselves to work harder and push only forward. i think the beta will bring out the best in them.
i can understand people being upset, but i think holding ns2 back into alpha would just hinder it's progress. call it an alpha or beta it doesn't really matter as long as the game makes progress and i believe it is.
A beta means it's playable, most of the killer bugs are squashed, and you've decided to unleash the masses to tell you how to fix the balance and find bugs for you. This is more of a public alpha where you need an IBM Supercomputer to get a chance to attempt to play an unplayable game.
We have been working nights and weekends and putting our all into getting this game into a more playable state. We are very tired, and we want to be able to play the game lagless and without server crashes as much as anyone else. Frankly, the general lack of support and constant stream of negativity from our own community is really getting to the entire development team.
We aren't stupid, we know what the problems are with the game. Of course we'd love to wait until the game was almost done and polished to put out a Beta version to the public, but due to the issues Flayra mentioned in the blogpost update, that just wasn't feasible. We could have gone the traditional publishing route on this game, get millions of dollars from a company like EA to finance the development, hire up a large team to crank out the game. But that would have meant compromises, it would have meant the publisher would be able to call the shots and change the game to their liking. It would have meant this interaction we have with our community would not exist. We would not be allowed to share the behind the scenes development of this game with our fans, the game would be created behind closed doors, and only occasionally glimpsed in small, carefully moderated PR related events. Your feedback would not be heard and would not have an impact on the game development, as it does now.
We made the decision to self finance this game, through non traditional means, and through the support of our loyal fans. We made that decision for you.
Yes, we made mistakes, especially with releasing the first version of alpha that we hadn't realized was so unplayable. It took us a while to address some of the big issues, but we've really picked up steam. There have been significant improvements to the game and 2 large patches just in the last week. Some people won't notice the improvements as much as others, and that just goes with PC development, as there's an endless combination of computer system specs, operating system versions, graphics cards, etc. that players are using to run the game, and it takes time to sort through all of the issues.
We are constantly optimizing the game now, more so then many companies do at this point in development. A large amount of optimization tends to come towards the end of the project, but because we have put the game out to the public so early, we have been forced to deal with that sooner. So, the state of the game will continue to get optimized and become more and more stable. I guarantee it will be better next week, and then even better the week after, and we will be releasing patches at a much more frequent rate. Our recent track record has proved this.
We wish everyone would understand how harmful this negativity is, not just to those of us who are working hard to make a great game for you, but to the future of this game and company as well. Yes, people complaining and telling everyone this game is not worth buying really hurts pre order sales. And that lack of money coming in puts the development of this game in serious jeopardy. We understand people want a fun, polished playing experience, and they want it now, but if this constant stream of public negativity continues it may mean NS2 never comes out at all.
We embarked on this road together with our fans, and your support has meant everything to us. Yes, the road has been bumpy, but we are listening, we are working as hard and as fast as we can, and we still need your support , now more then ever.
Insightful comment, Cory, I think I'll shut up now. I still think you haven't addressed the optimization problems that well. I think you should hire a freelance programmer from the community and get him to patch up the optimization issues at a cheap price. I would do it for free but I only know python and I'm ###### at it.
I pre-ordered special edition because I have absolute faith in you guys. And even though I'm currently unable to play the game - due to reasons not related to the game itself - I feel I made the right choice and do not have the slightest regret. Money well spent.
<!--quoteo(post=1807584:date=Nov 20 2010, 11:56 AM:name=weeschwee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weeschwee @ Nov 20 2010, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i can understand people being upset, but i think holding ns2 back into alpha would just hinder it's progress. call it an alpha or beta it doesn't really matter as long as the game makes progress and i believe it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is that by announcing that they went into closed beta, news-sites caught up on it. I've seen two sites that I regularly visit (I believe there are plenty more though), and most people are saying that the trailer with the Fade is not actually telling anything about the game. They say it makes it look uninteresting and generic, when it should have been "it's working and it's a lot of fun" from people commenting and of course actually linked NS2HD's channel in the press-announcement which could have resulted in more sales. Now the piece of information thrown out on sites will have people writing in the comment section that its not working properly and discourage any buyers from buying right now and people are without any idea how the gameplay actually works. And who can blame them? It wasn't exactly ready to be played once it got that beta status.
And the fact of the matter is that many people have a short attention span so if it doesn't appeal to them now (nowadays a beta is considered a glorified demo basically) they could very well put a negative label on Natural Selection 2 and that takes some time to overcome.
This is the outcome I am beginning to see. I hope they'll find a solution for that server problem now so the hype that came from the announcement actually leads somewhere, and of course I'd personally really... really like to play the game!
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
ahlalala......
the problem is as always that there is a very vocal minority of trolls around that have no idea how software development and game develpment work.
Believe me, there are many people that admire you for your work. you should really all take a few days of to recharge your batteries.
i have seen BIG improvments after each patch, the latest patch was great, the fade is great.. seriously.
Many are not aware that UWE is a small indie dev team and expect the same thing as from a company like EA.
I for one LOVE the open development model. But from a business point of view it might not be ideal, because not everybody is a computer scientist like i am.
So i hope you don't have the moral too low, i just preordered 2 beta keys to support you, buy yourself a few nice pizzas with that money :)
I just want to add one more thing. Though this game is by no means finished, and is still missing a lot of planned features, just think about all that is in the game. We've had played some really fun games, with commanders forward building bases, researching a variety of different upgrades and weapons, gorges dropping hydras and bellysliding away from shotgun weilding marines. Fades appearing out of nowhere next to a hapless marine, in a dark, powered down room. Crag and Hydra combinations that hold marines off, Whips hidden around corners lashing out as marines as they walk by. Yes, epically unbalanced but still impressive flamethrowers lighting up an entire hive room in flames.
How many other games on the market have this much variety and depth in them, even in their final, polished form?
Yes it sucks that not everyone has been able to experience all of this, due to a variety of technical problems, but please don't give up, those issues will be fixed. We've already got the engine and a large amount of the game implemented, and the bug fixing and technical issues are the easy part compared to that.
<!--quoteo(post=1807592:date=Nov 20 2010, 09:11 PM:name=Raneman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raneman @ Nov 20 2010, 09:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still think you haven't addressed the optimization problems that well. I think you should hire a freelance programmer from the community and get him to patch up the optimization issues at a cheap price.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We recently had hired a programmer who had been solely focused on optimization, but unfortunately he ended up leaving a week ago, due to an opportunity he couldn't pass up. And, while in theory it sounds easy to just find a really knowledgeable programmer from the community, who is also cheap, trust me...its not that easy.
<!--quoteo(post=1807595:date=Nov 20 2010, 09:16 PM:name=Triggerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Triggerman @ Nov 20 2010, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing is that by announcing that they went into closed beta, news-sites caught up on it. I've seen two sites that I regularly visit (I believe there are plenty more though), and most people are saying that the trailer with the Fade is not actually telling anything about the game. They say it makes it look uninteresting and generic, when it should have been "it's working and it's a lot of fun" from people commenting and of course actually linked NS2HD's channel in the press-announcement which could have resulted in more sales. Now the piece of information thrown out on sites will have people writing in the comment section that its not working properly and discourage any buyers from buying right now and people are without any idea how the gameplay actually works. And who can blame them? It wasn't exactly ready to be played once it got that beta status.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And who is saying that? People in the comments section of those sites? So where are you? We need people like you to post in those comment sections, to link them to those NS2HD movies, to try and explain to people what the game is really like and the progress that we have made on it. Rather then being upset that people are judging us harshly, we need our fans to be out there protecting their investment, showing pride in a game which they are helping to form and mold.
<!--quoteo(post=1807597:date=Nov 20 2010, 09:19 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 20 2010, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just want to add one more thing. Though this game is by no means finished, and is still missing a lot of planned features, just think about all that is in the game. We've had played some really fun games, with commanders forward building bases, researching a variety of different upgrades and weapons, gorges dropping hydras and bellysliding away from shotgun weilding marines. Fades appearing out of nowhere next to a hapless marine, in a dark, powered down room. Crag and Hydra combinations that hold marines off, Whips hidden around corners lashing out as marines as they walk by. Yes, epically unbalanced but still impressive flamethrowers lighting up an entire hive room in flames.
How many other games on the market have this much variety and depth in them, even in their final, polished form?
Yes it sucks that not everyone has been able to experience all of this, due to a variety of technical problems, but please don't give up, those issues will be fixed. We've already got the engine and a large amount of the game implemented, and the bug fixing and technical issues are the easy part compared to that.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey Cory,
I'm new here, but not new to NS or UWE. Just thought i'd leave a reply here saying puurrlease dont let the vocal few get you down.
I pre-ordered this game aaaages ago. Not because I wanted a playable beta or alpha or whatever but to support you guys so that you could make the game you want.
Hell I don't even have a computer thats remotely capable of running this game (Or many modern games tbh). I will be upgrading for when the game is out of beta though! :p
I know you guys must be really tired, but dont stop! It'll all be worth it :D
Hey it'll get there, you WILL reach a point where the major and concerning bugs are out of the way, and youll be able to tweak and add to the game, thats the fun part and youll be there soon.
No offense dude, but all those "features" don't count for **** if it isn't playable for 95% of the population. Guys like NS2HD with his rig handed down from Ja himself don't count, and pushing those videos as a proper example isn't honest. It's so clearly not ready for beta that it's almost embarrassing to watch this go down. =/
Trying to pass it off as such just makes you look bad, and then, even worse, there is stuff like this on the order page:
Minimum requirements. 1.2 GHz Processor, 256MB RAM, a DirectX 9 level graphics card, Windows Vista/2000/XP
Let's get real here. This game is <i>never</i> going to run at a playable level on that system, and that is a guarantee. Fixing that up should be top priority. A disclaimer saying it "isn't optimized" isn't good enough when you have gone to beta with a pre-alpha product because you need more cash.
I'm really sorry, but there needs to be some sort of reality check here. It just doesn't seem ethical, and the negative comments those websites are collecting will only fuel the fire. You have to expect that if it doesn't work and you push ahead anyway, people are going to call you out on it.
Could you honestly say that there is a higher chance of the game being playable for someone with an average system (which is likely way above the posted min) who preorders today, than there is that it won't be?
<!--quoteo(post=1807601:date=Nov 20 2010, 12:27 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 20 2010, 12:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And who is saying that? People in the comments section of those sites? So where are you? We need people like you to post in those comment sections, to link them to those NS2HD movies, to try and explain to people what the game is really like and the progress that we have made on it. Rather then being upset that people are judging us harshly, we need our fans to be out there protecting their investment, showing pride in a game which they are helping to form and mold.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have bought two copies, created fan-art, created a new website-theme, given a copy I won to a friend and recently written my replies about the state as honestly as I can and linked to NS2HD and given reasons for sticking around on the product so I'm doing what I can. Valid point though.
Just feels a bit sad I can't really write "Buy it for heaven's sake! It's a bit unpolished but it's awesome! My nick is Triggerman for anyone who wants to play!", because as of yet, I haven't actually been able to play a proper game :( <i>That's</i> the kind of stuff I would have wanted to be able to write when the beta came up, and even though I have no issues or doubts about your game it hurts me a bit to see people who aren't as into the game or its predecessor, aren't as understanding how hard developing a game like this... are simply going "meh" and there's little that I can say against it other than creating a false truth about what I <i>think </i>the game is like without having actually played against any living opponents.
Edit: Oh, I missed that really good post of yours at the top... sorry 'bout that. And even though we may be a bit harsh, we're still around and I think that you should take on the approach that people are complaining just means they care about the game. It's a bit hard to really believe that, but it's true. And you're so very, very close now so please for the love of something don't let this get you down! I had a few minutes of gameplay today but my heart was racing and I really wanted to stick around and then well... server-error got the best of me. Once someone can play a game from start to finish I believe things will really get rolling so just hang in there!
Cory, I'm sorry but you've really dug your own grave for this one. I think the problem started a few years back when you decided to waste your source engine license by creating your own engine.
<!--quoteo(post=1807480:date=Nov 20 2010, 03:19 PM:name=Rhodri)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rhodri @ Nov 20 2010, 03:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you joking? It's a fairly old card yes, but it was also a flagship card of it's time and still pushes out good framerates in most modern games. It's not a hardware issues at all as I still get not great framerates on a 4ghz i7 and an overclocked 5970.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gee thats odd, because I basically get 60fps at 1920x1080 max everything on my 460, you must of gotten ripped off.
I understand where you're coming from and I hope other people would too.. it's probably very annoying to see most of the feedback on the forums being negative QQ complaining about how the performance isn't as good as zomg starcraft 2 beta.
New potential buyers who come check these forums will not be happy when the biggest threads are complaining and QQing how nobody should buy this game because the beta isn't playable blah blah. I for one have noticed how each patch improves the performance and the shift from the first build to current is significant.
<!--quoteo(post=1807616:date=Nov 20 2010, 09:45 PM:name=GrapeVine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrapeVine @ Nov 20 2010, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807616"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand where you're coming from and I hope other people would too.. it's probably very annoying to see most of the feedback on the forums being negative QQ complaining about how the performance isn't as good as zomg starcraft 2 beta.
New potential buyers who come check these forums will not be happy when the biggest threads are complaining and QQing how nobody should buy this game because the beta isn't playable blah blah. I for one have noticed how each patch improves the performance and the shift from the first build to current is significant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's a fairly solid concern about performance when you're getting 3 fps maximum on a year old computer.
Harsh reality is harsh, and pc gamers are notorious for being the most critical demanding group of people bar none. I seriously don't think 90% of people understand the sheer magnitude of creating a video game from cost to man-power to time, and it's sad you have to see the whining and complaining.
Keep plugging away, you are picking up steam. All of us want this to be great, and of course you and UWE above everyone else. Take your time, do what you need to do. There's millions of other things to do on a day-to-day basis, lay off the NS2 addiction kiddies and let them build their dream.
<!--quoteo(post=1807590:date=Nov 20 2010, 02:07 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 20 2010, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a bunch of stuff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Congratulations to Unknown Worlds for reaching this stage on such an incredibly complex project, and with such a tiny team. You are indeed a very talented group.
I understand all too well the process you are going through. Just shy of 10 years ago I led a small team on a similar journey on a major software project. We had a very public development model, with our Alpha builds being given away freely. As personal resources became tight (no outside investors), we were forced to begin selling the product as a pre-release beta. This was a tough decision but in many ways, as Charlie said, shipping something brings focus to a project. Some of our community turned against us, but a new community was born from that time.
We survived that period, releasing a very solid final product 9 months after we started selling the beta. As much as I doubted every decision along the way, no matter how much it 'felt' right, it turns out it was always the right choice to make.
We have since released major updates to that package, rewritten it as a 2.0 product, updated that, and 2 years ago we were acquired by another company with similar vision.
While most people here understandably haven't a clue as to the challenges you face on an engineering front, I do, and I continue to be impressed. So much so that I've already purchased two special editions, and just donated some money to Constellation to support UWE.
Please try and make a post-mortem happen this month. I work a couple of blocks from your usual locale, and would love to buy at least one round for the whole company. Hang in there!
- You guys see the whole constantly asking the community about ideas as a positive, although it's been a huge negative; as this statement release is part evidence of. If you guys never opened up every tiny morsel of information to people, you wouldn't be feeling any sort of backlash on your development. The average Joe doesn't understand pre-release game performance etc. You guys really should have known that.
- Transparency. This is probably as close as we are going to get to the whole "Fall 2009 really was never going to happen". A lot of people are hurt, they are upset and they are angry at the lack of transparency around the release date of Fall 2009 to the consistency they received in a first alpha release. Again, this statement is probably going to be the closest thing to a "we weren't strictly being true with the initial release date" and the 'cash cow' theory.
Honestly, just do your jobs, make your game, release topical updates, remove your bug trackers etc. from public eyes and keep everything in-house. The more private you become with development, the better you will feel with progress, the quicker you will progress and the sooner you will turn your public image opinion around.
Not that my opinion is going to matter but if you really want to continue to make a huge dip in to community development, distance yourselves, get a community liason. Someone you know and trust in the community who can go back and forth, and on behalf of yourselves offer information to the public which won't damage you or make yourselves feel like you're in this position any time further in the future.
*Edit: One thing I'll stress is that the content creation tools, the Spark world builder etc. for me, are a huge positive and that's the sort of community liason you need to focus more on. Rather than the tidbits of information ;)
**Edit 2: Someone also mentioned Cryptics bug tracker and public persona. As someone who idles with the ST MMO community, Cryptic devs also idle and speak to people via IRC and get a lot of good feedback that's true. However, they get 10x the crap UWE get's thrown at them. That's a compromise with opening up so much information to the public.
<!--quoteo(post=1807622:date=Nov 20 2010, 09:53 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Nov 20 2010, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not that my opinion is going to matter but if you really want to continue to make a huge dip in to community development, distance yourselves, get a community liason. Someone you know and trust in the community who can go back and forth, and on behalf of yourselves offer information to the public which won't damage you or make yourselves feel like you're in this position any time further in the future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ I strongly agree with having more people like Sgt.Barlow to play the PR middle-man between the community and developers.
Also you guys REALLY need to take down the minimum requirements ASAP. As long as its still up, people are going to reflect back to it, over and over.
<!--quoteo(post=1807622:date=Nov 20 2010, 02:53 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Nov 20 2010, 02:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not that my opinion is going to matter but if you really want to continue to make a huge dip in to community development, distance yourselves, get a community liason. Someone you know and trust in the community who can go back and forth, and on behalf of yourselves offer information to the public which won't damage you or make yourselves feel like you're in this position any time further in the future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with this completely. If UWE wants to continue their open development (and I hope they do personally), they really need a dedicated community relations person that can keep the community informed without inflating expectations too much as development progresses.
I don't get why people whine and complain, I mean if you want a playable game right now, go play NS1.
NS1 is worth alot more than 40 bux, as far as I am concerned, UW deserves 40 bux for NS1, and NS2 is just a cool freebie that may later turn into a great game. Hell I don't even expect it to be great till maybe a year after it is <u>released</u>. NS1 wasn't great until well over a year after it came out, and wasn't perfect till 3.2.
People need to stop being to anal about these things, enjoy the interesting beta for what it has to offer, live your lives and let NS2 mature with time.
For the longest time I figured NS2 was going to be vaporware, the fact that I can even play anything (and the fact of how impressive it is so far) is a testament to the amount of work UW put into this.
A game like NS2 is the kind of game that is constantly refined before and especially after its release.
I didn't mind waiting 6 years for NS2, I sure as hell wont mind waiting a few more months, the last thing I want is them to rush it to meet the demands of a vocal minority.
Keep polishing it till it is perfect, and remember, vocal minorities are minorities. For every person who complains on the forums, 20 people are loving what they see and live their life without feeling the need to shout it to the world. (besides maybe their friends)
Anyone who has gone through a degree in computer sciences/design/engineering... any sort of professional level of work will understand what is going into this. Blood, sweat and tears.
The thing is, as has been said; it is a minority. Also, gamers are very spoiled nowadays. A lot of people on here are comparing you guys to teams with budgets over 100x what you have. They are probably teenagers, or those inexperienced and without the ability to comprehend what you are doing.
My advise is that if you are feeling that stressed, make sure you all get some good time off! You have posted some very negative thoughts, as has Flayra.. these posts have been equally reactive rather than thoughtful. Probably coming from a bunch of people absolutely exhausted with not only making a game, but the stress of running a business.
I have made lots of posts in the I&S threads and sent an e-mail to you guys concerning the UI. I hope it came across as constructive (not stressful), I think what you are doing is very brave and that this game is great and will be amazing a few months down the line.
Also as has been mentioned, distance yourself from the community.. we appreciate the contact but have it filtered through Sgt Barlow, if not him, then get some long standing members of the community to.
I was very skeptical about NS2 going into beta already, but I thought I'd try it first before posting my concerns.
While I understand the game is still pretty unplayable to many players, I've seen only huge improvements so far on my side. Frame rate was awful in the earlier builds, I could hardly run the game at medium 1600x900, now I get a very fluid rate most of the time on high settings (i7 860, 8GB RAM, HD5770). Overall better responsiveness and hit reg too, loading time really low and no weird lockups.
Performance seem to still be bound to the server's performance, and it is known that there are some important issues with the server code. While I had a very interesting 20 minutes game on a 12 players server, when I hopped on the dev server #1, the experience was horrible. So try hopping from one server to another to see if you can find one that works better for you.
So yeah, I know "my" game works well and yours may not. That's what testing is for. The dev team don't need to be told how to run their business, they need your constructive feedback. If you can't bother helping out, then do everyone a favor and just don't post.
For the last month or so, about every other time I logged in to play the game, there was a new patch, and the game was much more playable each time. I managed to have my first actually fun game about two weeks ago, and I've had progressively more fun each time. On tuesday, the most viable strategies in unlagged 5-6 person games were "eat the IP's and ignore everything else" and "tech to flamers for gg". Today? We have fades who can kill and harass, complimentary alien structures which can lock down sections of the map, improved server performance so bullet hitscan weapons actually work. Next week? Given what's happened in such a short period of time, I have no idea what sort of awesomeness awaits us next week.
The steady rate of improvement of this game is incredible. Regardless of any specific bugs or broken features at any point in time, this rate of improvement is what makes me certain that the game will keep getting better until it's done. I'm glad that I get to play it along the way.
I think that the main difference between the development of NS and NS2 is that, back when we started playing NS 1.01, the game didn't feel as unplayable as the current state NS2 is in. It was unfinished but it was perfectly playable, and mainly...fun. Never in my time playing NS I felt like there was something missing or something that didn't let my play it.
I understand the big challenge this is for the development team, and its not that we do not support the project, its that some of us probably expected the development of NS2 to go as smoothly as it did with NS1. We get it though, building a new engine from the ground up is an incredible feat... but its a little disorienting that a lot of people are saying that the game is perfectly playable, when some of us can't even move once we are in a game, with mid to high end PCs.
Although theres a lot of negativity in the air, I doubt that people are requesting refunds. Deep down nobody wants the project to fail, we love NS and we want NS2 to be as awesome as it can possibly be. I pre ordered 2 special editions, and If I could donate to a second constellation fund or something I would do it. NS1 has brought gaming experiences that have never been achieved anywhere else, and I expect the same from NS2.
Just keep going forward, as I said, the people that have pre ordered the game so far are the real NS fans, and we will continue to support the project for as long as it needs to.
Comments
I don't think this is a realistic situation. For a start NS2 isn't being marketed as a playable game, and this beta isn't being marketed as an opportunity to be playing the game before your friends.
They may well walk away, I certainly stopped bothering with the Alpha (and still continue to not worry too much about the Beta) due to the problems I have with lag, etc. I know others have the same. When that gets resolved and it can be productive for me to get involved I will again. For those less inclined to get involved to make the game the best it can be, they'll come back after walking away if the reviews and their friends say they should be checking out this awesome game.
It'll all come down to the actual finished product and final beta (that, as has been said, would be a soft release hype move). If it's outstanding no-one that's ###### and moaning right now will care unless they have been emotionally hurt by their own misunderstanding of what they paid for.
And to add to that particular camp, I don't care that this pre-order period has sucked for actual game play, I have faith that the devs will get it all sorted in the end and they've already shown in NS1 that they have the skill to make a great game. The pre-order is an investment in a long future for the game, not for access before an official release date.
that being said, i am really glad they released the beta. sure it might be one of the roughest betas seen, but like they said in their post, they set a date and they needed to stick to it. it helps them make sure they are making progress. i'm sure they know the beta rough, but if they keep pushing dates back we could see another year delay. this way they have more accountability. they have released the beta, the final phase before release. now the only deadline is release. they are simplifying their options. now they are forcing themselves to work harder and push only forward. i think the beta will bring out the best in them.
i can understand people being upset, but i think holding ns2 back into alpha would just hinder it's progress. call it an alpha or beta it doesn't really matter as long as the game makes progress and i believe it is.
We aren't stupid, we know what the problems are with the game. Of course we'd love to wait until the game was almost done and polished to put out a Beta version to the public, but due to the issues Flayra mentioned in the blogpost update, that just wasn't feasible. We could have gone the traditional publishing route on this game, get millions of dollars from a company like EA to finance the development, hire up a large team to crank out the game. But that would have meant compromises, it would have meant the publisher would be able to call the shots and change the game to their liking. It would have meant this interaction we have with our community would not exist. We would not be allowed to share the behind the scenes development of this game with our fans, the game would be created behind closed doors, and only occasionally glimpsed in small, carefully moderated PR related events. Your feedback would not be heard and would not have an impact on the game development, as it does now.
We made the decision to self finance this game, through non traditional means, and through the support of our loyal fans. We made that decision for you.
Yes, we made mistakes, especially with releasing the first version of alpha that we hadn't realized was so unplayable. It took us a while to address some of the big issues, but we've really picked up steam. There have been significant improvements to the game and 2 large patches just in the last week. Some people won't notice the improvements as much as others, and that just goes with PC development, as there's an endless combination of computer system specs, operating system versions, graphics cards, etc. that players are using to run the game, and it takes time to sort through all of the issues.
We are constantly optimizing the game now, more so then many companies do at this point in development. A large amount of optimization tends to come towards the end of the project, but because we have put the game out to the public so early, we have been forced to deal with that sooner. So, the state of the game will continue to get optimized and become more and more stable. I guarantee it will be better next week, and then even better the week after, and we will be releasing patches at a much more frequent rate. Our recent track record has proved this.
We wish everyone would understand how harmful this negativity is, not just to those of us who are working hard to make a great game for you, but to the future of this game and company as well. Yes, people complaining and telling everyone this game is not worth buying really hurts pre order sales. And that lack of money coming in puts the development of this game in serious jeopardy. We understand people want a fun, polished playing experience, and they want it now, but if this constant stream of public negativity continues it may mean NS2 never comes out at all.
We embarked on this road together with our fans, and your support has meant everything to us. Yes, the road has been bumpy, but we are listening, we are working as hard and as fast as we can, and we still need your support , now more then ever.
Thanks.
--Cory
I pre-ordered special edition because I have absolute faith in you guys. And even though I'm currently unable to play the game - due to reasons not related to the game itself - I feel I made the right choice and do not have the slightest regret. Money well spent.
Stay strong!
The thing is that by announcing that they went into closed beta, news-sites caught up on it.
I've seen two sites that I regularly visit (I believe there are plenty more though), and most people are saying that the trailer with the Fade is not actually telling anything about the game. They say it makes it look uninteresting and generic, when it should have been "it's working and it's a lot of fun" from people commenting and of course actually linked NS2HD's channel in the press-announcement which could have resulted in more sales. Now the piece of information thrown out on sites will have people writing in the comment section that its not working properly and discourage any buyers from buying right now and people are without any idea how the gameplay actually works. And who can blame them? It wasn't exactly ready to be played once it got that beta status.
And the fact of the matter is that many people have a short attention span so if it doesn't appeal to them now (nowadays a beta is considered a glorified demo basically) they could very well put a negative label on Natural Selection 2 and that takes some time to overcome.
This is the outcome I am beginning to see. I hope they'll find a solution for that server problem now so the hype that came from the announcement actually leads somewhere, and of course I'd personally really... really like to play the game!
the problem is as always that there is a very vocal minority of trolls around that have no idea how software development and game develpment work.
Believe me, there are many people that admire you for your work. you should really all take a few days of to recharge your batteries.
i have seen BIG improvments after each patch, the latest patch was great, the fade is great.. seriously.
Many are not aware that UWE is a small indie dev team and expect the same thing as from a company like EA.
I for one LOVE the open development model. But from a business point of view it might not be ideal, because not everybody is a computer scientist like i am.
So i hope you don't have the moral too low, i just preordered 2 beta keys to support you, buy yourself a few nice pizzas with that money :)
How many other games on the market have this much variety and depth in them, even in their final, polished form?
Yes it sucks that not everyone has been able to experience all of this, due to a variety of technical problems, but please don't give up, those issues will be fixed. We've already got the engine and a large amount of the game implemented, and the bug fixing and technical issues are the easy part compared to that.
--Cory
We love you UWE :) seriously, you have my biggest respect. Programming such a game is tons of work. and you are doing a great job.
And yes, there are TONS of stuff in the game already, and really playable already, i had my first 2 real games with 155! tons of fun :)
We recently had hired a programmer who had been solely focused on optimization, but unfortunately he ended up leaving a week ago, due to an opportunity he couldn't pass up. And, while in theory it sounds easy to just find a really knowledgeable programmer from the community, who is also cheap, trust me...its not that easy.
<!--quoteo(post=1807595:date=Nov 20 2010, 09:16 PM:name=Triggerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Triggerman @ Nov 20 2010, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1807595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing is that by announcing that they went into closed beta, news-sites caught up on it.
I've seen two sites that I regularly visit (I believe there are plenty more though), and most people are saying that the trailer with the Fade is not actually telling anything about the game. They say it makes it look uninteresting and generic, when it should have been "it's working and it's a lot of fun" from people commenting and of course actually linked NS2HD's channel in the press-announcement which could have resulted in more sales. Now the piece of information thrown out on sites will have people writing in the comment section that its not working properly and discourage any buyers from buying right now and people are without any idea how the gameplay actually works. And who can blame them? It wasn't exactly ready to be played once it got that beta status.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And who is saying that? People in the comments section of those sites? So where are you? We need people like you to post in those comment sections, to link them to those NS2HD movies, to try and explain to people what the game is really like and the progress that we have made on it. Rather then being upset that people are judging us harshly, we need our fans to be out there protecting their investment, showing pride in a game which they are helping to form and mold.
--Cory
How many other games on the market have this much variety and depth in them, even in their final, polished form?
Yes it sucks that not everyone has been able to experience all of this, due to a variety of technical problems, but please don't give up, those issues will be fixed. We've already got the engine and a large amount of the game implemented, and the bug fixing and technical issues are the easy part compared to that.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey Cory,
I'm new here, but not new to NS or UWE. Just thought i'd leave a reply here saying puurrlease dont let the vocal few get you down.
I pre-ordered this game aaaages ago. Not because I wanted a playable beta or alpha or whatever but to support you guys so that you could make the game you want.
Hell I don't even have a computer thats remotely capable of running this game (Or many modern games tbh). I will be upgrading for when the game is out of beta though! :p
I know you guys must be really tired, but dont stop! It'll all be worth it :D
Trying to pass it off as such just makes you look bad, and then, even worse, there is stuff like this on the order page:
Minimum requirements.
1.2 GHz Processor, 256MB RAM, a DirectX 9 level graphics card, Windows Vista/2000/XP
Let's get real here. This game is <i>never</i> going to run at a playable level on that system, and that is a guarantee. Fixing that up should be top priority. A disclaimer saying it "isn't optimized" isn't good enough when you have gone to beta with a pre-alpha product because you need more cash.
I'm really sorry, but there needs to be some sort of reality check here. It just doesn't seem ethical, and the negative comments those websites are collecting will only fuel the fire. You have to expect that if it doesn't work and you push ahead anyway, people are going to call you out on it.
Could you honestly say that there is a higher chance of the game being playable for someone with an average system (which is likely way above the posted min) who preorders today, than there is that it won't be?
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have bought two copies, created fan-art, created a new website-theme, given a copy I won to a friend and recently written my replies about the state as honestly as I can and linked to NS2HD and given reasons for sticking around on the product so I'm doing what I can. Valid point though.
Just feels a bit sad I can't really write "Buy it for heaven's sake! It's a bit unpolished but it's awesome! My nick is Triggerman for anyone who wants to play!", because as of yet, I haven't actually been able to play a proper game :(
<i>That's</i> the kind of stuff I would have wanted to be able to write when the beta came up, and even though I have no issues or doubts about your game it hurts me a bit to see people who aren't as into the game or its predecessor, aren't as understanding how hard developing a game like this... are simply going "meh" and there's little that I can say against it other than creating a false truth about what I <i>think </i>the game is like without having actually played against any living opponents.
Edit: Oh, I missed that really good post of yours at the top... sorry 'bout that.
And even though we may be a bit harsh, we're still around and I think that you should take on the approach that people are complaining just means they care about the game. It's a bit hard to really believe that, but it's true. And you're so very, very close now so please for the love of something don't let this get you down! I had a few minutes of gameplay today but my heart was racing and I really wanted to stick around and then well... server-error got the best of me. Once someone can play a game from start to finish I believe things will really get rolling so just hang in there!
Gee thats odd, because I basically get 60fps at 1920x1080 max everything on my 460, you must of gotten ripped off.
New potential buyers who come check these forums will not be happy when the biggest threads are complaining and QQing how nobody should buy this game because the beta isn't playable blah blah. I for one have noticed how each patch improves the performance and the shift from the first build to current is significant.
New potential buyers who come check these forums will not be happy when the biggest threads are complaining and QQing how nobody should buy this game because the beta isn't playable blah blah. I for one have noticed how each patch improves the performance and the shift from the first build to current is significant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's a fairly solid concern about performance when you're getting 3 fps maximum on a year old computer.
Harsh reality is harsh, and pc gamers are notorious for being the most critical demanding group of people bar none. I seriously don't think 90% of people understand the sheer magnitude of creating a video game from cost to man-power to time, and it's sad you have to see the whining and complaining.
Keep plugging away, you are picking up steam. All of us want this to be great, and of course you and UWE above everyone else. Take your time, do what you need to do. There's millions of other things to do on a day-to-day basis, lay off the NS2 addiction kiddies and let them build their dream.
Best of luck! --Cyanide
Congratulations to Unknown Worlds for reaching this stage on such an incredibly complex project, and with such a tiny team. You are indeed a very talented group.
I understand all too well the process you are going through. Just shy of 10 years ago I led a small team on a similar journey on a major software project. We had a very public development model, with our Alpha builds being given away freely. As personal resources became tight (no outside investors), we were forced to begin selling the product as a pre-release beta. This was a tough decision but in many ways, as Charlie said, shipping something brings focus to a project. Some of our community turned against us, but a new community was born from that time.
We survived that period, releasing a very solid final product 9 months after we started selling the beta. As much as I doubted every decision along the way, no matter how much it 'felt' right, it turns out it was always the right choice to make.
We have since released major updates to that package, rewritten it as a 2.0 product, updated that, and 2 years ago we were acquired by another company with similar vision.
While most people here understandably haven't a clue as to the challenges you face on an engineering front, I do, and I continue to be impressed. So much so that I've already purchased two special editions, and just donated some money to Constellation to support UWE.
Please try and make a post-mortem happen this month. I work a couple of blocks from your usual locale, and would love to buy at least one round for the whole company. Hang in there!
Cheers,
Steve
- You guys see the whole constantly asking the community about ideas as a positive, although it's been a huge negative; as this statement release is part evidence of. If you guys never opened up every tiny morsel of information to people, you wouldn't be feeling any sort of backlash on your development. The average Joe doesn't understand pre-release game performance etc. You guys really should have known that.
- Transparency. This is probably as close as we are going to get to the whole "Fall 2009 really was never going to happen". A lot of people are hurt, they are upset and they are angry at the lack of transparency around the release date of Fall 2009 to the consistency they received in a first alpha release. Again, this statement is probably going to be the closest thing to a "we weren't strictly being true with the initial release date" and the 'cash cow' theory.
Honestly, just do your jobs, make your game, release topical updates, remove your bug trackers etc. from public eyes and keep everything in-house. The more private you become with development, the better you will feel with progress, the quicker you will progress and the sooner you will turn your public image opinion around.
Not that my opinion is going to matter but if you really want to continue to make a huge dip in to community development, distance yourselves, get a community liason. Someone you know and trust in the community who can go back and forth, and on behalf of yourselves offer information to the public which won't damage you or make yourselves feel like you're in this position any time further in the future.
*Edit: One thing I'll stress is that the content creation tools, the Spark world builder etc. for me, are a huge positive and that's the sort of community liason you need to focus more on. Rather than the tidbits of information ;)
**Edit 2: Someone also mentioned Cryptics bug tracker and public persona. As someone who idles with the ST MMO community, Cryptic devs also idle and speak to people via IRC and get a lot of good feedback that's true. However, they get 10x the crap UWE get's thrown at them. That's a compromise with opening up so much information to the public.
^ I strongly agree with having more people like Sgt.Barlow to play the PR middle-man between the community and developers.
Also you guys REALLY need to take down the minimum requirements ASAP. As long as its still up, people are going to reflect back to it, over and over.
I agree with this completely. If UWE wants to continue their open development (and I hope they do personally), they really need a dedicated community relations person that can keep the community informed without inflating expectations too much as development progresses.
NS1 is worth alot more than 40 bux, as far as I am concerned, UW deserves 40 bux for NS1, and NS2 is just a cool freebie that may later turn into a great game. Hell I don't even expect it to be great till maybe a year after it is <u>released</u>. NS1 wasn't great until well over a year after it came out, and wasn't perfect till 3.2.
People need to stop being to anal about these things, enjoy the interesting beta for what it has to offer, live your lives and let NS2 mature with time.
For the longest time I figured NS2 was going to be vaporware, the fact that I can even play anything (and the fact of how impressive it is so far) is a testament to the amount of work UW put into this.
A game like NS2 is the kind of game that is constantly refined before and especially after its release.
I didn't mind waiting 6 years for NS2, I sure as hell wont mind waiting a few more months, the last thing I want is them to rush it to meet the demands of a vocal minority.
Keep polishing it till it is perfect, and remember, vocal minorities are minorities. For every person who complains on the forums, 20 people are loving what they see and live their life without feeling the need to shout it to the world. (besides maybe their friends)
The thing is, as has been said; it is a minority. Also, gamers are very spoiled nowadays. A lot of people on here are comparing you guys to teams with budgets over 100x what you have. They are probably teenagers, or those inexperienced and without the ability to comprehend what you are doing.
My advise is that if you are feeling that stressed, make sure you all get some good time off! You have posted some very negative thoughts, as has Flayra.. these posts have been equally reactive rather than thoughtful. Probably coming from a bunch of people absolutely exhausted with not only making a game, but the stress of running a business.
I have made lots of posts in the I&S threads and sent an e-mail to you guys concerning the UI. I hope it came across as constructive (not stressful), I think what you are doing is very brave and that this game is great and will be amazing a few months down the line.
Also as has been mentioned, distance yourself from the community.. we appreciate the contact but have it filtered through Sgt Barlow, if not him, then get some long standing members of the community to.
While I understand the game is still pretty unplayable to many players, I've seen only huge improvements so far on my side. Frame rate was awful in the earlier builds, I could hardly run the game at medium 1600x900, now I get a very fluid rate most of the time on high settings (i7 860, 8GB RAM, HD5770). Overall better responsiveness and hit reg too, loading time really low and no weird lockups.
Performance seem to still be bound to the server's performance, and it is known that there are some important issues with the server code. While I had a very interesting 20 minutes game on a 12 players server, when I hopped on the dev server #1, the experience was horrible. So try hopping from one server to another to see if you can find one that works better for you.
So yeah, I know "my" game works well and yours may not. That's what testing is for. The dev team don't need to be told how to run their business, they need your constructive feedback. If you can't bother helping out, then do everyone a favor and just don't post.
The steady rate of improvement of this game is incredible. Regardless of any specific bugs or broken features at any point in time, this rate of improvement is what makes me certain that the game will keep getting better until it's done. I'm glad that I get to play it along the way.
I understand the big challenge this is for the development team, and its not that we do not support the project, its that some of us probably expected the development of NS2 to go as smoothly as it did with NS1. We get it though, building a new engine from the ground up is an incredible feat... but its a little disorienting that a lot of people are saying that the game is perfectly playable, when some of us can't even move once we are in a game, with mid to high end PCs.
Although theres a lot of negativity in the air, I doubt that people are requesting refunds. Deep down nobody wants the project to fail, we love NS and we want NS2 to be as awesome as it can possibly be. I pre ordered 2 special editions, and If I could donate to a second constellation fund or something I would do it. NS1 has brought gaming experiences that have never been achieved anywhere else, and I expect the same from NS2.
Just keep going forward, as I said, the people that have pre ordered the game so far are the real NS fans, and we will continue to support the project for as long as it needs to.