Certainly is a lot like the Spine Crawler in Starcraft.
I prefer the way the Whip is coiled up more in the artwork than how it is not in the render. Makes it feel more dangerous, as though it is prepared to strike.
A melee "turret" huh? Could be interesting for several reasons. -Lets both gorges and Alien Commanders to place their own defensive structures. -Makes a structure that's more dangerous to "knife" down, forcing marines to use ammo/risk reloading to take it down. -I love that it's movable. In between marine attacks, the commander could slightly relocate the whips to catch marines off guard each time. (I love doing this as engie in TF2) -Good to have a melee danger rather than just more spamming ranged turrets.
<!--quoteo(post=1801657:date=Oct 15 2010, 05:27 PM:name=Dread)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dread @ Oct 15 2010, 05:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bloodthirst could make Skulks able to see Marines health and armor for a few minutes. That way, they could(and would) always go for the weakest prey, like the hunters they are. Also could be a replacement for scent of fear, or some such.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea a lot. There were a couple OP suggestions in this thread, but I think this is a nice bonus that gives a tactical advantage without making the individual players any stronger or weaker.
As for suggestions: Visually, the acid globby needs to be a lot... globbier. Make it messy. I'd like the glob attack itself to act as a slight extension to its melee range. The Whip still does its melee damage to anything nearby, but it specifically picks one target to lob its acid at. The acid itself can reach outside its melee range by a foot or two. If the only target is within its melee range, they can be hit by both the acid AND its melee every hit. Another visual note - I'd like to see the tentacle look more "anchored" into the infestation via the veins/roots. They could function like tendons grabbing into the floor, so the whip itself has strong connection for the muscles to contract.
<!--quoteo(post=1801636:date=Oct 15 2010, 08:44 PM:name=PhiXX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PhiXX @ Oct 15 2010, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Whip looked much nicer in the concept art, the gooball looks like it's almost falling down IMO, also I'd have thought the immature Whip's arm would be much more rolled up. The base looks very nice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The render is actually showing it in the pose that it was modeled in, since its easier to model, texture, and rig when the tentacle is uncoiled. The Whip has been rigged and animated, and it is coiled up more like in the concept, and is wrapped around the ball holding it securely.
<!--quoteo(post=1801660:date=Oct 15 2010, 06:39 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Oct 15 2010, 06:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->imo, whatever bloodthirst gets, upgrading the skulk with that ability shouldn't determine the usefulness of the class in late game. We'll still see default armed and armored marines late game. Having a negative effect to coincide the positive sounds like the route to go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We saw unupgraded Skulks in NS1 too - when they didn't have time to gestate. I think upgrades should be all positive, only having a drawback if they would be crazy otherwise(i.e. Focus). Otherwise it's not much of an upgrade.
The Whip looks very distinct which is cool. Very alien. I'm having a hard time picturing the sweeping attack, and curious how the limited range will play out. Being able to shimmy them around is very awesome.
As for Bloodlu-- er, Bloodthirst:
First instinct is what most are saying, the buffs for chomping or killing, temporary life bonus for each successful chomp. But that seems a little expected/cliche, and at that point just call it Bloodlust.
Having a 'weakness' indicator would be helpful, but if you're looking at a marine you are biting him or about to. I don't see having the time to pick and choose targets unless you're going for the 1:1 kill or in the middle of a swarm.
I like the idea of being able to smell blood, but not as in smell of fear. Get a marine bleeding and then you can stalk him by his scent trail that is literally on the ground. This idea has probably been put out there already, sorry if so.
Alternatively, whenever an ability can be multiplayer it should right? (I tend to play support roles though...) So what if it gave players around you a bonus/buff if you make a kill, or you a bonus when they do. Say, a skulk runs out, gets a bite out of someone, he could then give other players the scent for tracking or for a damage buff. Too complex probably, but that's what I mean as far as getting people playing cooperatively whenever possible.
i love the idea of a slashing, whipping tentacle. (and your concept looks great!) but the rendering looks more like an acid-goo-slingshot than a whip... its does not even curl one whole turn and is more goo-ball than tentacle...?
<!--quoteo(post=1801675:date=Oct 15 2010, 08:07 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Oct 15 2010, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looks good, my only beef with the model is that the ball doesn't look like it's being held very securely. It looks much more snug in the concept art.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1801680:date=Oct 15 2010, 08:34 PM:name=ObergottJango)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ObergottJango @ Oct 15 2010, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i love the idea of a slashing, whipping tentacle. (and your concept looks great!) but the rendering looks more like an acid-goo-slingshot than a whip... its does not even curl one whole turn and is more goo-ball than tentacle...?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cory has already mentioned that it will be more curled up in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1801650:date=Oct 15 2010, 11:40 PM:name=Triggerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Triggerman @ Oct 15 2010, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's my modification of your idea:
Bloodthirst: For a XX seconds after the Skulk has killed an enemy Marine, if the Skulk is killed during this time, it is then granted a few extra seconds of life after its HP reach zero.
I think it might be wise to add such a mechanic so that every 1v1 encounter between Skulk and Marine doesn't end up with both dying, this way it's only possible to utilize in 2v1. Probably more true to the name of the ability as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that.
But if the skulk kills, it hp should not be allowed to go below 1 for 5 seconds. hitting with bite prolongs this by 2 seconds, if the thirst runs out before all aggressors are killed he will die inevitably.
With this upgrade, marines are enforced to stay on their toes and away from skulks. And it requires the skulk to kill a marine first.
hmmm...nice job NS2, i think the ability 'bloodthirst' for skulks should be a move where they r invincible for only a short amount of time how about 5 sec OR it could be when the skulk attacks a marine it only takes one bite to kill them and yet again only in a short period of time, think about those 2 ideas, i think the whip will be a BIG advantage for the aliens, but anyway nice work!
Bloodthirst upgrade for Skulks (details murky, any ideas?).
Bring back the Scent of Fear sort of...
Marines that have been injured in the last X (Not too long. Not too short) seconds have a 'Scent of Fear' type HUD view for the aliens. Something that is range based. So the whole map isn't lit up.
This would allow lerks and other aliens to specify targets for the next skulks possibly such as the advanced weapon user or the accurate shooter.
As I have no idea how the new alien commanders idea for sensory upgrades are right now.
It also makes me wonder, if the Whip uproots, will it change directional orientation when rooting or face the default direction? It'll only really affect the sweeping attack if Whip has turn speed like TF2's Sentry.
I know it's unlikely that you'll change the model for the whip at this time but I have some small points of critique on the model:
A. It's missing the larger flaps at the side of the end of the tentacle that envelopes the acid ball in the concept, which looks great. As it is now it doesn't look like it can hold the acidball very well much less propel it large distances.
B. Allthough not in the concept, It'd be a nice addition with some suction cups like tendrils on the end and inside of the tentacle, as if it were these suction cups that held the acid ball in place only to let go of the vacuum at optimal launching angle to launch the ball.
But again I think it's unlikely you'll change the model unless you still consider it WIP even tho I know how much work modifying a model means, eg new unwrapping, new texturing needed etc.
Just saying that as wicked as it looks, it doesn't look like it would be very effective at holding/slingshoting the acidball away.
<!--quoteo(post=1801682:date=Oct 16 2010, 02:55 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Oct 16 2010, 02:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like that.
But if the skulk kills, it hp should not be allowed to go below 1 for 5 seconds. hitting with bite prolongs this by 2 seconds, if the thirst runs out before all aggressors are killed he will die inevitably.
With this upgrade, marines are enforced to stay on their toes and away from skulks. And it requires the skulk to kill a marine first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the life-after-death bit. 5 seconds is a bit long, and it shouldnt get prolonged. Marines Can't stay away from skulks (except with jetpack, which i think were op in ns 1 imo.), especially away from one that cant die for 5 seconds. Though, that would be one hilarious solo skulk rampage.
A couple more options for bloodthirst:
-'When reduced to 0 hp, the skulk has a xx% chance to return to life at 50 hp'
-'when reduced to 0 hp, the skulk dies and all allies in the area get a bonus to damage for a limited time' Goood for skulk packs. 1 goes down, and the other smell blood in the air, and go on a rampage. Or instead of being reduced to 0, 'When a Skulk kills a foe, all allies in the area..." etc etc. Or yet another version "When an ally within xx meters of the you killes a foe, you get a bonus to damage'" the 'moral bonus' version.
Instead of being dragged by its base tentacles i think it should just fall to the ground and drag itself with the main tentacle...like a caterpillar or a worm...but anyway. Bloodthirst -> faster bite rate, and movement, maybe also the ability to eat marines, that are not dead yet (reverse dmg)
bloodthirst should be like that mod that i played on... some ns1 server a while back where groups of aliens (I think in this server's case, specifically skulks) would link together and be stronger and faster (depending on the number of skulks and/or other aliens near them)... sorta like the marine grouping, but adding a benefit for it with the aliens.
Am I the only one who thinks that khara might be getting too many offensive structures (Whip, Hydra, Crag)? I like that the commanders seem like they are going to have a much more active role in this game than in the original, but I'm just starting to feel like some of these structures might have redundant roles. Yes I'm aware that these structures are upgrade structures, and that the hydra is a gorge ability, but think about this. If you had a hallway filled with hydras, crags firing babblers and whips doing there thing, seems like it would be a tad chaotic and unbalanced. Such a hallway would put the old NS walls of lame to shame, especially with an attentive commander using the active abilities.
Also, are there any limitations to where khara commanders can place structures like on infested ground only or can they go anywhere?
<!--quoteo(post=1801711:date=Oct 16 2010, 09:07 AM:name=LOLdoc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOLdoc @ Oct 16 2010, 09:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Am I the only one who thinks that khara might be getting too many offensive structures (Whip, Hydra, Crag)? I like that the commanders seem like they are going to have a much more active role in this game than in the original, but I'm just starting to feel like some of these structures might have redundant roles. Yes I'm aware that these structures are upgrade structures, and that the hydra is a gorge ability, but think about this. If you had a hallway filled with hydras, crags firing babblers and whips doing there thing, seems like it would be a tad chaotic and unbalanced. Such a hallway would put the old NS walls of lame to shame, especially with an attentive commander using the active abilities.
Also, are there any limitations to where khara commanders can place structures like on infested ground only or can they go anywhere?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, you still have a resource system that would control that kind of abuse and its prob not even sure if these abilities will stay to the final release.. So there's no real point in these observations until ns2 hits beta so we can start trying the game out. Thats when balancing becomes the real issue.
I definitely like the team interaction through buildings. Hopefully it has got enough of dynamics in it to keep it from turning into too stable routine.
I like the idea of seeing marine's health/armor. In dystopia there is an implant named IFF that does this and it's very useful to plan your strategy, letting you know when continue the battle or retire to heal comparing your health with yours opponent.
Lifesteal sounds good. Although should extra damage or a portion of regular damage? So either it's "Your bites steal 5/10/15 health in addition to their regular damage" or "You gain 7/14/21 health every time you land a bite".
<!--quoteo(post=1801711:date=Oct 16 2010, 02:07 AM:name=LOLdoc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOLdoc @ Oct 16 2010, 02:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you had a hallway filled with hydras, crags firing babblers and whips doing there thing, seems like it would be a tad chaotic and unbalanced. Such a hallway would put the old NS walls of lame to shame, especially with an attentive commander using the active abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do see your point with a potential for a "hall of lame." However, just remember the alien team wouldn't be able to have many high life forms if they blow all their res on a hall of lame. Besides, you kill a hall of lame easily the same way you kill a wall of lame. Nadespam. From around a corner if necessary. On top of all that, like someone said, we're not even in a stage to think about final balance yet. Not even all the player classes have been implemented yet. :P
Comments
I prefer the way the Whip is coiled up more in the artwork than how it is not in the render. Makes it feel more dangerous, as though it is prepared to strike.
-Lets both gorges and Alien Commanders to place their own defensive structures.
-Makes a structure that's more dangerous to "knife" down, forcing marines to use ammo/risk reloading to take it down.
-I love that it's movable. In between marine attacks, the commander could slightly relocate the whips to catch marines off guard each time. (I love doing this as engie in TF2)
-Good to have a melee danger rather than just more spamming ranged turrets.
<!--quoteo(post=1801657:date=Oct 15 2010, 05:27 PM:name=Dread)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dread @ Oct 15 2010, 05:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bloodthirst could make Skulks able to see Marines health and armor for a few minutes. That way, they could(and would) always go for the weakest prey, like the hunters they are. Also could be a replacement for scent of fear, or some such.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea a lot. There were a couple OP suggestions in this thread, but I think this is a nice bonus that gives a tactical advantage without making the individual players any stronger or weaker.
As for suggestions: Visually, the acid globby needs to be a lot... globbier. Make it messy. I'd like the glob attack itself to act as a slight extension to its melee range. The Whip still does its melee damage to anything nearby, but it specifically picks one target to lob its acid at. The acid itself can reach outside its melee range by a foot or two. If the only target is within its melee range, they can be hit by both the acid AND its melee every hit.
Another visual note - I'd like to see the tentacle look more "anchored" into the infestation via the veins/roots. They could function like tendons grabbing into the floor, so the whip itself has strong connection for the muscles to contract.
The render is actually showing it in the pose that it was modeled in, since its easier to model, texture, and rig when the tentacle is uncoiled. The Whip has been rigged and animated, and it is coiled up more like in the concept, and is wrapped around the ball holding it securely.
--Cory
We saw unupgraded Skulks in NS1 too - when they didn't have time to gestate. I think upgrades should be all positive, only having a drawback if they would be crazy otherwise(i.e. Focus). Otherwise it's not much of an upgrade.
As for Bloodlu-- er, Bloodthirst:
First instinct is what most are saying, the buffs for chomping or killing, temporary life bonus for each successful chomp. But that seems a little expected/cliche, and at that point just call it Bloodlust.
Having a 'weakness' indicator would be helpful, but if you're looking at a marine you are biting him or about to. I don't see having the time to pick and choose targets unless you're going for the 1:1 kill or in the middle of a swarm.
I like the idea of being able to smell blood, but not as in smell of fear. Get a marine bleeding and then you can stalk him by his scent trail that is literally on the ground. This idea has probably been put out there already, sorry if so.
Alternatively, whenever an ability can be multiplayer it should right? (I tend to play support roles though...) So what if it gave players around you a bonus/buff if you make a kill, or you a bonus when they do. Say, a skulk runs out, gets a bite out of someone, he could then give other players the scent for tracking or for a damage buff. Too complex probably, but that's what I mean as far as getting people playing cooperatively whenever possible.
Anyway, keep it up guys.
<!--quoteo(post=1801680:date=Oct 15 2010, 08:34 PM:name=ObergottJango)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ObergottJango @ Oct 15 2010, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i love the idea of a slashing, whipping tentacle. (and your concept looks great!) but the rendering looks more like an acid-goo-slingshot than a whip... its does not even curl one whole turn and is more goo-ball than tentacle...?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cory has already mentioned that it will be more curled up in the game.
Bloodthirst: For a XX seconds after the Skulk has killed an enemy Marine, if the Skulk is killed during this time, it is then granted a few extra seconds of life after its HP reach zero.
I think it might be wise to add such a mechanic so that every 1v1 encounter between Skulk and Marine doesn't end up with both dying, this way it's only possible to utilize in 2v1.
Probably more true to the name of the ability as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that.
But if the skulk kills, it hp should not be allowed to go below 1 for 5 seconds.
hitting with bite prolongs this by 2 seconds, if the thirst runs out before all aggressors are killed he will die inevitably.
With this upgrade, marines are enforced to stay on their toes and away from skulks.
And it requires the skulk to kill a marine first.
Bring back the Scent of Fear sort of...
Marines that have been injured in the last X (Not too long. Not too short) seconds have a 'Scent of Fear' type HUD view for the aliens. Something that is range based. So the whole map isn't lit up.
This would allow lerks and other aliens to specify targets for the next skulks possibly such as the advanced weapon user or the accurate shooter.
As I have no idea how the new alien commanders idea for sensory upgrades are right now.
A. It's missing the larger flaps at the side of the end of the tentacle that envelopes the acid ball in the concept, which looks great. As it is now it doesn't look like it can hold the acidball very well much less propel it large distances.
B. Allthough not in the concept, It'd be a nice addition with some suction cups like tendrils on the end and inside of the tentacle, as if it were these suction cups that held the acid ball in place only to let go of the vacuum at optimal launching angle to launch the ball.
But again I think it's unlikely you'll change the model unless you still consider it WIP even tho I know how much work modifying a model means, eg new unwrapping, new texturing needed etc.
Just saying that as wicked as it looks, it doesn't look like it would be very effective at holding/slingshoting the acidball away.
1 x marine = x 1.2 damage
2 x marine = x 1.4 damage etc
Would encourage skulk frenzies into groups of marines
But if the skulk kills, it hp should not be allowed to go below 1 for 5 seconds.
hitting with bite prolongs this by 2 seconds, if the thirst runs out before all aggressors are killed he will die inevitably.
With this upgrade, marines are enforced to stay on their toes and away from skulks.
And it requires the skulk to kill a marine first.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the life-after-death bit. 5 seconds is a bit long, and it shouldnt get prolonged. Marines Can't stay away from skulks (except with jetpack, which i think were op in ns 1 imo.), especially away from one that cant die for 5 seconds. Though, that would be one hilarious solo skulk rampage.
A couple more options for bloodthirst:
-'When reduced to 0 hp, the skulk has a xx% chance to return to life at 50 hp'
-'when reduced to 0 hp, the skulk dies and all allies in the area get a bonus to damage for a limited time' Goood for skulk packs. 1 goes down, and the other smell blood in the air, and go on a rampage. Or instead of being reduced to 0, 'When a Skulk kills a foe, all allies in the area..." etc etc. Or yet another version "When an ally within xx meters of the you killes a foe, you get a bonus to damage'" the 'moral bonus' version.
Bloodthirst -> faster bite rate, and movement, maybe also the ability to eat marines, that are not dead yet (reverse dmg)
Also, are there any limitations to where khara commanders can place structures like on infested ground only or can they go anywhere?
Also, are there any limitations to where khara commanders can place structures like on infested ground only or can they go anywhere?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, you still have a resource system that would control that kind of abuse and its prob not even sure if these abilities will stay to the final release..
So there's no real point in these observations until ns2 hits beta so we can start trying the game out. Thats when balancing becomes the real issue.
One slight criticism I have is the whip doesn't look dangerous. In fact it looks the most harmless of all the structures.
I don't know what you can change at this point...the model is done right? So could you give it seriously chilling sound effects? Something eerie...
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18xHf4Vy39c" target="_blank">Look at videos of triffids for ideas</a>
And i like the idea, that thing can move, nice ^^
I hope you give us xmas with aliens, if you understand :)
I do see your point with a potential for a "hall of lame." However, just remember the alien team wouldn't be able to have many high life forms if they blow all their res on a hall of lame. Besides, you kill a hall of lame easily the same way you kill a wall of lame. Nadespam. From around a corner if necessary.
On top of all that, like someone said, we're not even in a stage to think about final balance yet. Not even all the player classes have been implemented yet. :P