Commanding proxy workers vs human building

Rogue EagleRogue Eagle Join Date: 2010-07-19 Member: 72551Members
<div class="IPBDescription">These new robot things that build your buildings.</div>In NS2 we see those commander controlled robots/alien things that do the building of the commander. While I see this as an advantage in some ways as the team can get out of the base quicker and aren't tied up behind a building holding e for ages I want to highlight a couple of ways this may impact NS as we know it.

In the old natural selection one of its charms was base relocation and a last ditch attempt to survive. Some of my best memories from the old Natural Selection were from a commander building an entire base in a cramped vent or small room and everyone trying to survive there while being gassed out by lerks.

After jumping into NS2 just a few minutes ago I got talking about this, and other people agreed that random base building was one of their favourite aspects of the game. So I thought I'd bring it here.

The builder bots etc. are a good idea, but could we have the option to have a marine build 'e' as well? Perhaps have all the building options given to commander directly, rather than going through a bot to build it. I think it'd add a good level of extra flexibility to the game.

Even if not originally intended, being able to have this kind of flexibility really added to the NS1 experience.
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Comments

  • NarcilNarcil Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41426Members
    +1

    Marines should also have the ability to build. I can envisage massive frustration of having to babysit an AI unit through a frontline in order to create a fwd base.

    As soon as you see the marines break the lines then all the aliens would need to do would be to kill the builder bot and then pick off the marines 1 by 1 knowing that there is no way for them to call in backup.
  • ZyerroZyerro Join Date: 2009-11-24 Member: 69513Members
    I think the builder bots are pretty awesome... It gives more awareness to the player.

    As for building more stations, that should be a Emergency Drop and only 1 allowed per game. Making it more meaningful to have when you need it. Also, your speed decreases 25% meaning you will have to have people protecting you and Marines can build.

    Yes, it is the "Carry Station". XD
  • HarathanHarathan Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72845Members
    I know where youre coming from, because I was a sod for building backup bases in bizarre locations. Thing is, it looks likely that NS2 will feature smaller, faster paced maps with little room for expansion of the kind we remember.
  • rsdrsd Join Date: 2003-02-11 Member: 13405Members
    You can only build bases on tech points, so I think the last ditch ninja bases are gone until someone writes a "classic NS" mod.

    I like the idea of marines not being able to build. It means aliens can target the builder bots to prevent expansion and marines have to guard / escort them very carefully. Different to NS1, but I think it's a good change.

    Will be cool as a skulk to lurk outside tech points and ambush builder bots trying to move through the map without an escort.
  • Revi.ukRevi.uk Join Date: 2010-04-12 Member: 71354Members
    As I've said in another post the point of having build bots is that it changes the dynamic of the game making it slightly slower in some places but also makes building things take longer and come at a bigger risk. For example you need to make sure that you don't lose 5 build bots as that's 10 plasma which will equate to a massive loss later on in the game.

    I feel that the objective behind build bots is to give the commander a more obvious role, before it was more a god over viewing the battle magically making med-kits and ammo appear. Now the commander has a role which is clear, obvious and has a major impact on the game for the better.
  • AsimovAsimov Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73352Members
    edited July 2010
    I really miss being able to build stuff. I remember in NS my heart just pounding as I try to sneak a turret factory up behind enemy lines to establish a beach head. I don't mind the idea of AI builders but they should be an extra and both aliens and marines should have the ability to build stuff. Also right now they are way to slow, dumb and low hp to do much good imo, they get picked off before they can get anything done.

    I think most NS1 players will admit that their hearts raced when they could hear the aliens walking by and were trying to build a res nod, a turret factory or a new base. It was intense.

    As for base relocation, I think it was one of the best aspects of the game and should not be limited. It changed the strategies for some maps and created situations that were never envisioned.

    +1 for E key
  • Revi.ukRevi.uk Join Date: 2010-04-12 Member: 71354Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1789434:date=Jul 30 2010, 04:06 PM:name=Asimov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asimov @ Jul 30 2010, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really miss being able to build stuff. I remember in NS my heart just pounding as I try to sneak a turret factory up behind enemy lines to establish a beach head. I don't mind the idea of AI builders but they should be an extra and both aliens and marines should have the ability to build stuff.

    I think most NS1 players will admit that their hearts raced when they could hear the aliens walking by and were trying to build a res nod, a turret factory or a new base. It was intense.

    As for base relocation, I think it was one of the best aspects of the game and should not be limited. It changed the strategies for some maps and created situations that were never envisioned.

    +1 for E key<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This can still be achieved with build bots it's just they need to be escorted, or hope they make it and get the structure up. This also avoids the spam build whereby 5 marines would sprint to a corner of the map and build up a whole base in 30 seconds.

    +1 for build bots.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    If marines are able to build then you need to balance the game around them building stuff, meaning the worker will probably build slower and now marines are obligated to help. Personally I like the idea of the commander doing it all himself. It gives him some more active RTS gameplay that doesn't rely on the marines being able to work out their tactics, and lets all the marines focus on covering the bot without anyone being stuck on "Hold E" duty. If the current build rate is too slow it can be increased, or maybe multiple workers can focus build something.
  • TomasTomas Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10641Members
    I've been wondering if it wouldn't be fun to have an upgrade at the armory be a welding torch which would replace one of your weapon slots. Then you could repair/build if the scenario called for it. I do miss building...as odd as it sounds.
  • AsimovAsimov Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73352Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1789437:date=Jul 30 2010, 10:09 AM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 30 2010, 10:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This can still be achieved with build bots it's just they need to be escorted, or hope they make it and get the structure up. This also avoids the spam build whereby 5 marines would sprint to a corner of the map and build up a whole base in 30 seconds.

    +1 for build bots.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    How do you solve the issue with building in other parts of the map behind enemy lines? Plus they die REALLY easily. How about the marines just build things at 1/3 the rate? and I will really miss the heart beating fast because I am hoping the aliens don't spot me cause it will take too long for my weapon to redraw out to shoot them.
  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    It's boring to walk by an ai unit that won't stop or defend itself.

    When they announced an AI builder/welder, I was happy because nobody had to stay behind to fortify base and develop techtrees, which would come down to more guns in the field.
    But this... this is crap because its a bottleneck in a whole different location, and thats where it hurts <b>me</b>.

    With this "feature", you can just about play any MINDLESS realtime strategy game out there.
    I acknowledge the need for UWE to bring in as many players as possible, but kicking the old players in the ass that loved it how it was in the process is the wrong way to go.
  • CerebralCerebral Join Date: 2003-06-25 Member: 17689Members
    Personally I think the MACs will be cool once they get all of the kinks worked out. It would be pretty awesome though if there was some sort of upgrade which allowed them to defend themselves in a minimal capacity. MAC RUSH!
  • SturmwindSturmwind Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72589Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1789431:date=Jul 30 2010, 04:59 PM:name=rsd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rsd @ Jul 30 2010, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea of marines not being able to build. It means aliens can target the builder bots to prevent expansion and marines have to guard / escort them very carefully. Different to NS1, but I think it's a good change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes, thats the way i see it too. 

    but until the lag & fps-issue is solved, we won't be able to verify/falsify our thought-exoeriments :-)
  • Revi.ukRevi.uk Join Date: 2010-04-12 Member: 71354Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1789445:date=Jul 30 2010, 04:19 PM:name=Asimov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asimov @ Jul 30 2010, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789445"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How do you solve the issue with building in other parts of the map behind enemy lines? Plus they die REALLY easily. How about the marines just build things at 1/3 the rate? and I will really miss the heart beating fast because I am hoping the aliens don't spot me cause it will take too long for my weapon to redraw out to shoot them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I just give up.

    Wait till the game is further developed before you start making conclusions on game play that we've yet to see. Demanding sweeping game play changes that will completely change the dynamic of NS2.

    (prays that Flayra doesn't listen to these people)
  • AsimovAsimov Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73352Members
    Yes, because adding thoughts on the balance of the game and changes is a bad thing in alpha I know.

    I wouldn't say it is a sweeping change, I just wanted the idea out there for discussion and from what I have seen there are quite a few people that are concerned about it. I will still play the game and enjoy it I think, but I want to make it the best game it can be. Whats wrong with that?
  • CerebralCerebral Join Date: 2003-06-25 Member: 17689Members
    You know what might be fun? If the commander could select a MAC and then press a button to go into first person mode. So basically instead of AI pathing you could fly up into the ceiling or a corner to hide from passing aliens. Might add another dynamic especially if we are looking for things for a second commander to do.
  • bazookabazooka Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47847Members
    +1 for building.

    I enjoyed having that window of vulnerability when building. You hear a skulk in a vent and you pause, waiting in silence, waiting until you feel like you are clear. Then you resume. The sounds from your invisible building tool fill your ears.... then a cloaked skulk bites you in the butt scaring the crap out of you. And no more base relocation? I agree that it's way too early to make judgements because at this point, it's not even a game yet. But I have to say, there are things that I miss that I hope end up in the beta/final.
  • SyknikSyknik InversionNS2.com Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2064Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    The MAC already has a set of upgrades that you'll be able to get him which is deeper into the tech tree. I'd suggest that more people check through all the Lua files and check out all the information and try to piece together how the game will probably play out. Checking out those files and being able to somewhat get a feel on how the game will work. Trust me there's a lot of stuff that I think we could do without, but a lot of the new stuff does seem to have plenty of advantages as well. :)
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1789473:date=Jul 30 2010, 04:36 PM:name=Cerebral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cerebral @ Jul 30 2010, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know what might be fun? If the commander could select a MAC and then press a button to go into first person mode. So basically instead of AI pathing you could fly up into the ceiling or a corner to hide from passing aliens. Might add another dynamic especially if we are looking for things for a second commander to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You can make builder bots fly up the ceiling by telling it to travel to an elevated location. Click the top of a crane or something and the bot will zoom up there.

    Oh and I support the introduction of builder bots for marines. It looks silly having marines build things with their bare hands.

    Don't forget the builder bot has some abilities which aren't in the game yet so let's wait a bit~
  • sadeyxsadeyx Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73354Members
    Bot building itself IS a sweeping change to Natural Selection, so it will continue to be a subject of much debate well after release. (and rightly so)

    I must admit I was a bit dubious about this too, and the concerns above I believe are valid, but as has been stated its too early to tell how this major change in direction effects the game's appeal, so I wont make a determination until i've put several hundred hours into game play :D

    One could also argue that this is NS2 !.. so we dont want a copy paste of the old system, unlike Starcraft 2 which just seems to be the same with better graphics.
  • Skyforger2Skyforger2 Join Date: 2007-10-19 Member: 62681Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1789446:date=Jul 30 2010, 04:19 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 30 2010, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I acknowledge the need for UWE to bring in as many players as possible, but kicking the old players in the ass that loved it how it was in the process is the wrong way to go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Agree. 50 % of the game I've seen in good other 50 % reminds me of mindless booring console games.
  • SyknikSyknik InversionNS2.com Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2064Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    Once again I can't see the MAC just being there to build for you, they will be an integral part of the Marine force. You and your team of 5 other marines go out to snipe down a hive, you see the door opening to the hive, you get your MACs to go up first and to drop some mines, once that's done the commander brings them back and marines begin to move in. Oh no the lerks are beginning to spore you're losing health and armor, commander drops meds, oh look your buddies the MAC are welding you so that you don't get destroyed by the leaping skulks. Oh crap that harvester is almost dead but all of our marines are occupied, spend 2 res, use the MAC to go over and attack the harvester, pew pew harvester down.

    MACs aren't only going to be there to build, they will be a part of your team, which will be commander controlled.
  • Revi.ukRevi.uk Join Date: 2010-04-12 Member: 71354Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1789515:date=Jul 30 2010, 05:54 PM:name=Frhoe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frhoe @ Jul 30 2010, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once again I can't see the MAC just being there to build for you, they will be an integral part of the Marine force. You and your team of 5 other marines go out to snipe down a hive, you see the door opening to the hive, you get your MACs to go up first and to drop some mines, once that's done the commander brings them back and marines begin to move in. Oh no the lerks are beginning to spore you're losing health and armor, commander drops meds, oh look your buddies the MAC are welding you so that you don't get destroyed by the leaping skulks. Oh crap that harvester is almost dead but all of our marines are occupied, spend 2 res, use the MAC to go over and attack the harvester, pew pew harvester down.

    MACs aren't only going to be there to build, they will be a part of your team, which will be commander controlled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Good post.

    The point of the MAC is to give the commander more to do, allow them to actually influence what's happening on the ground. Rather than be infuriated because their only tool to aid their marines was dropping med-kits.
  • JerkstoreJerkstore Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67880Members
    The only thing I don't like about builder bots is the introduction of an NPC that relies on pathfinding for the very important task of building and getting resources. The less control the players on a team have over their success, the less competitive it will be (talking balance, not "pro" competition).

    As long as the bots are efficient and predictable, it sounds great though. Building was always a chore to me.
  • KompatriotKompatriot Join Date: 2010-01-14 Member: 70144Members
    Redundancy almost never improves the game, so I would really oppose changes to this effect. Also, the design team is addressing the vital issue of making the commander an interesting and enjoyable role to play, whereas it sounds to me like the NS commander was more of a thankless job.
  • SyknikSyknik InversionNS2.com Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2064Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2010
    I'm sure the MACs in time will have the option to follow marines. You'll still have to protect them when building like we know they are very weak, they won't be alone, so it's up to you not to let them die. I can't see it being an issue for them to build, you'll still somewhat have your 'RT builder' marine going to each res node with the MAC. Plus I can even see MACs going around with top fraggers to keep them alive by welding them. People are so narrow minded they can't see past the first stage of MACs it's irritating. Think 'past' just the building and everything out, try and think oh poop they could be used for this and this, as well as that. Not for me to sound like a prick but competitive players always think about this stuff, we have the mentality of how can we use this to our advantage, instead of what i've been reading so far of "oh no.. we can't build, they're too weak, they're stealing jobs from the marines" No they aren't. You still have to watch over them and they'll be a great addition to helping out groups of marines to push forward when they're stuck in a situation.
  • Killpo1Killpo1 Join Date: 2009-11-13 Member: 69373Members
    +1 for Bots

    *bottom is copy and paste from post building buildings since they 2 topics coincide with each other*
    They could do some pretty cool stuff with the MAC, if they ever get dynamic infestation in it could be one of the key things *have like a flamethrower of chem thrower to destroy infestation* and also have it be able to weld doors and such, they should just allow you to put in a squad with some pc players and have it follow them, and maybe have a dialogue box option to tell it what to do. Also maybe be able to upgrade it with more features, so basically the MAC won't be something cumbersome and annoying you have to escort around but something you want to bring with you because of its many uses. Also maybe a small illuminating device to in case infestation takes out lights.
  • Rogue EagleRogue Eagle Join Date: 2010-07-19 Member: 72551Members
    edited July 2010
    I don't have anything against the bots, but I'm just saying it'd be nice to have the flexibility to use E sometimes.
  • KwilKwil Join Date: 2003-07-06 Member: 17963Members
    The "sneaky forward base" thing was kind of fun, but I think part of the point of NS2 is to increase how much teamwork is required and to reduce the effectiveness of an uber player running solo.

    That said, perhaps if marines could build a limited set of things. No RTs or command centres, but turrets and perhaps phase gates (if such things will even exist anymore). They'd of course build these things much slower than a MAC, and perhaps there'd be no benefit for more than one marine at a time working on a single structure. That'd still give some of the 'infiltration' action that we had in NS1, but make it a much higher risk-reward scenario.
  • mortsmorts Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 73071Members
    What would work really well is enabling marines to build structures but also add code to the bot AI to scan for "incomplete" structures in the room they're in and head over to assist. LOS detection would have to be the key as radius detection would mean alien players could just follow the bots around when they start moving because they detect an object on the other side of a wall..
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