I'm not quite sure why a 20 year old communication protocol, supported by countless free open source clients that run on every OS under the sun including browser apps and your phone; requires no registration and has been used as the primary method of organising online games since online games existed... would be a barrier to entry?
What's the craic with pushing new restrictive corporate owned social networks over a free solution that has been doing the job as well or better for decades? The only purpose of these competing "this is your home now!" networks is to tie people into each developer's own walled garden in order to profile and sell your eyeba~~ sell things to you. It shows in the way they flat out suck for tasks IRC has been doing with no complaints forever, like say... a live group discussion? Something that might be rather useful if you're organising gathers or clan games.
Websites with matchmaking apps and forums have always been useful, but what reason could you possibly have for wanting to do your primary communication through steam? You'd do as well trying to organise a league via Facebook, and i'd decline to participate in that for much the same reason.
ALSO, without a live IRC chatroom with a big cluster of uninvited people from various clans, where do you expect the <b></b><u></u>DRAMA<b></b><u></u> to come from? You can't have organised competitive play without drama, it isn't allowed.
<!--quoteo(post=1780914:date=Jul 19 2010, 10:33 PM:name=TeoH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TeoH @ Jul 19 2010, 10:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not quite sure why a 20 year old communication protocol, supported by countless free open source clients that run on every OS under the sun including browser apps and your phone; requires no registration and has been used as the primary method of organising online games since online games existed... would be a barrier to entry?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't see how being required to run a third party program just to simply communicate with the competitive world is a barrier to entry? Compare that to a program, required to play the game, implementing a chat system. Just because IRC is how things use to be done in the mid 90's and early 00's doesn't mean that's how things should be done in 2010 and onward. If room for improvement can be identified then I hope people make some changes and see how it works out.
Age of the system doesn't really have anything to do with it, IRC is used because it's reliable, easy, free and allows the competitive community, 3rd parties, shoutcasters etc to gather without having to idle inside the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1780915:date=Jul 20 2010, 10:34 AM:name=UnfocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (UnfocusedWolf @ Jul 20 2010, 10:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about people who don't know how to use big programs like IRC and are more familiar with STEAM friends? Did you ever think of that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are clients out there with no learning curve. For example, <a href="http://wbeuk2.mibbit.com/?settings=54bf48e54d034a088ecc4e6c8ffd2b24&server=irc.gamesurge.net&channel=%23naturalselection&nick=NSPlayer" target="_blank">this link</a>, <i>(copied from the top of this page, the IRC button)</i> - joins the #NS2 channel, absolutely no setup required besides entering your nickname.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1780917:date=Jul 20 2010, 03:40 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jul 20 2010, 03:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't see how being required to run a third party program just to simply communicate with the competitive world is a barrier to entry? Compare that to a program, required to play the game, implementing a chat system. Just because IRC is how things use to be done in the mid 90's and early 00's doesn't mean that's how things should be done in 2010 and onward. If room for improvement can be identified then I hope people make some changes and see how it works out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> When the competing option is woefully lacking in almost every way and the third party software takes one brain cell to install and two to use? No, I don't see the problem.
Progress isn't actually progress unless the new is better. Just because something is old isn't an argument against using it.
I'm not really debating which is better and clearly the Steam chat has miles to go but there is opportunity for improvement over running a 3rd party program and implementing a chat feature in the program required to play NS2 is an example. Even if it was somehow possible a link to IRC channels such as #ns-scrims, #ns-clans, or #ns-pugs within NS2's menus and have the chat show right there on the menu. Games that support community based chat in the program required to run the game are successful. Look at the community's reaction to battle.net 2.0 removing chat channels for proof.
My point is that being required to run a third party program then claiming it's not a barrier to entry is not accurate. Even if your argument is that there is no better alternative you still have to recognize the fact it's a barrier.
IRC takes the extra time many people do not want to spend trying to learn or use. TF2lobby (tf2lobby.com) was a 3rd party website created by competitive players that increased pugging dramatically in the community and easily outperformed the IRC system in a single day. IRC is a closed system, no matter how open it really is, because really normal people will never be exposed to it. Pubs are jump in a game and leave whenever you want, whereas pugs are full commitments for the game. You start and end with the same people, unlike pubs that fluctuate slightly. People will be interested if the option is offered to them, as TF2lobby is shown, and I think it would really help bridge the community.
A L4D lobby system with some sort of tracking would greatly strengthen the vanilla version of the game while still allowing modded servers to exist. Progress would be to implement the system with reliability/karma tracking done in TF2lobby for quality control. I really hope something like this is supported beyond community generated IRC channels. I guess an NS2lobby could be created, but it'd be awesome to have a later added feature for pugging.
Some very good ideas and i wonder how simple it would be to create.
If you could open up your Steam screen overlay in game and there was a chat option in which a whole bunch of channels were available, and each of which had a different topic.
+NSAmerica General Help/Troubleshooting WArs/Scrims/PUGS etc etc +NSEurope General Help/Troubleshooting WArs/Scrims/PUGS etc etc
Something like this would be awesome and it could probably be done over the steam network, however, this would be down to steam to create and not UWE.
Why are we concerned it being 'a 3rd party program' when the 3rd party program involved can be... a web browser? We probably all have those yea? 'Learning to use' IRC when you've been linked to a channel in a web client is a 2 step process: a) type what you want to say b) press enter. Anything beyond that would just be a question of community practices that would be the same through any other means. By using IRC though you allow constant live group chat that anyone can join in on, which importantly lets new players LERK, and get a feel for the characters and the community without the community simply being a load of people in a buddy list messaging eachother individually.
<!--quoteo(post=1780930:date=Jul 19 2010, 10:34 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jul 19 2010, 10:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even if it was somehow possible a link to IRC channels such as #ns-scrims, #ns-clans, or #ns-pugs within NS2's menus and have the chat show right there on the menu.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is technically extremely simple to do, infact there were mods floating around for the old quake series that did this. Simply streaming chat from IRC channels to the chat window / console in quake, and allowing you to chat with the IRC channel from within the game. You can then of course join in from wherever you can get a web browser, so people can chat from work, from mobile phones etc. Without having to run the giant cludgy mess that is the steam client.
I don't really want to go backwards either. Obviously the community will pick the most purposeful programs, no matter what.
However, I think it's highly beneficial if some parts can be made less obligatory. Even if the actual league level play is handled through 3rd party options, all the stepping stones to the league don't have to use them. For example being able to organise gathers/PUGs through NS2 interface alone would be useful. At that point people get to meet some competetive players and get to see some of the possibilities of the organised play. If they get interested, coping with a few 3rd party programs for communication becomes much less of a barrier.
sentrysteve is right about basically everything hes posted in this thread im not going to bother typing a bunch of words about a video game though. bye.
<!--quoteo(post=1780908:date=Jul 20 2010, 02:02 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jul 20 2010, 02:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Barriers to competitive play should be reduced and downplaying IRC's importance should definitely be looked at by competitive leagues and organizers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IRC is cheap, easy and fully functional for the purpose. Browser or client based, customisable by scripts, multiple places to talk via channels and PM. Not that anyone uses it but you can send files. It's so versatile and simple to use that for many things that it is literally the easiest tool around. Other tools have tried to replace it and have ultimately always failed, Xfire came closest.. although it just didn't work as well, it was too complex.
IRC isn't a barrier to competitive play, it's part of competitive play just as relying on team mates is.
<!--quoteo(post=1780964:date=Jul 20 2010, 02:18 AM:name=TeoH)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TeoH @ Jul 20 2010, 02:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Without having to run the giant cludgy mess that is the steam client.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize NS2 will require Steam to be running in order to download, get updates, and most importantly play. Right? If I'm wrong feel free to correct me but with Steamworks so heavily implemented into NS2 I doubt you have a choice in the matter.
some people may not want to have steam running constantly, and thus IRC allows them to connect with their community and organise games without having to use steam. Mind you the same could be said about people not wanting to run IRC,
However I think that IRC's system is much better when it comes to engaging a large community as a whole compared to steam
I'd just like to repeat that I don't want to push away from the habits just to end up with less functional system. If something doesn't work on NS2/Steam alone, there's no reason to struggle with it. However, I'd like to explore if there are possibilities to cut some unnecessary barriers away.
<!--quoteo(post=1781012:date=Jul 20 2010, 07:47 AM:name=Narcil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Narcil @ Jul 20 2010, 07:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->some people may not want to have steam running constantly, and thus IRC allows them to connect with their community and organise games without having to use steam. Mind you the same could be said about people not wanting to run IRC,
However I think that IRC's system is much better when it comes to engaging a large community as a whole compared to steam<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah yes, I see. That is a good point. I like the idea of using IRC but including a way for it open ingame. That seems like both sides are satisfied with very little draw backs.
You can connect to IRC channels through the steam ingame browser. The casual players can join findnsscrim or another channel through that while the more hardcore can use their regular irc client to idle and talk trash in channels.
<!--quoteo(post=1781021:date=Jul 20 2010, 12:29 PM:name=rennex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rennex @ Jul 20 2010, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can connect to IRC channels through the steam ingame browser. The casual players can join findnsscrim or another channel through that while the more hardcore can use their regular irc client to idle and talk trash in channels.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the bonus of IRC being in-browser and client as opposed to Steam IM being only Steam.
You could easily include a minimalistic chat client ingame which uses the IRC-Protocol. It just needs simple functions, like joining channels, chatting and maybe private conversations. Colors, the File transfer stuff etc. can easily be filtered. (Maybe this should be run on a new NS-network, to be independent from quakenet or gamesurge.) So you could use your favorite IRC-Client as well as just the ingame system.
This is for me the most important aspect of the game(except for balance :p). So many to-be good games have looked past this and just ended up in the "meh"-pile. Sure,. easy money but give the users something to remember and the company will earn more in respect. \o/
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1781095:date=Jul 20 2010, 07:08 PM:name=Saeppel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Saeppel @ Jul 20 2010, 07:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781095"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could easily include a minimalistic chat client ingame which uses the IRC-Protocol. It just needs simple functions, like joining channels, chatting and maybe private conversations. Colors, the File transfer stuff etc. can easily be filtered. (Maybe this should be run on a new NS-network, to be independent from quakenet or gamesurge.) So you could use your favorite IRC-Client as well as just the ingame system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a great idea actually.
<!--quoteo(post=1781123:date=Jul 20 2010, 08:27 PM:name=UnfocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (UnfocusedWolf @ Jul 20 2010, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't wait for #findnsscrim to go back up so Hellabean and DrFurious can ban people on whims again. IRC ftw<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i dont know who you are but if i find you in findnsscrim i am going to ban you
<!--quoteo(post=1781123:date=Jul 20 2010, 02:27 PM:name=UnfocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (UnfocusedWolf @ Jul 20 2010, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't wait for #findnsscrim to go back up so Hellabean and DrFurious can ban people on whims again. IRC ftw<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i've never done such a thing lies and slander
There's still a few of us on irc people should come chat.
#findnsscrim is the cool place to hang out. You can find most of the cool people there. In #findnsscrim you can just chill and do whatever and totally relax. "Take it easy" is the #findnsscrim motto, for example, that's how laid back it is there. Show up if you want to have a good time. Another good reason to show up is if you want to hang out with friends.
Ok so im a nub. Ive only known about this game for about a week. I found out about it from that bash cast. SO anyways i play in the call of duty competitive community and have been for the past 6 years. Its getting kinda old tbh and this game looks like it is really a fresh style of game. With the rts and fps mix. So i was wondering how big is the competitive community for this game? Where can i tryout for teams and so on. Also if any of u guys have xfire please add me. Mine is xo1byeez. I would really like to get into ns2 when its ready.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(Maybe this should be run on a new NS-network, to be independent from quakenet or gamesurge.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you realize this needs a server run by uwe?
Comments
What's the craic with pushing new restrictive corporate owned social networks over a free solution that has been doing the job as well or better for decades? The only purpose of these competing "this is your home now!" networks is to tie people into each developer's own walled garden in order to profile and sell your eyeba~~ sell things to you. It shows in the way they flat out suck for tasks IRC has been doing with no complaints forever, like say... a live group discussion? Something that might be rather useful if you're organising gathers or clan games.
Websites with matchmaking apps and forums have always been useful, but what reason could you possibly have for wanting to do your primary communication through steam? You'd do as well trying to organise a league via Facebook, and i'd decline to participate in that for much the same reason.
ALSO, without a live IRC chatroom with a big cluster of uninvited people from various clans, where do you expect the <b></b><u></u>DRAMA<b></b><u></u> to come from? You can't have organised competitive play without drama, it isn't allowed.
You don't see how being required to run a third party program just to simply communicate with the competitive world is a barrier to entry? Compare that to a program, required to play the game, implementing a chat system. Just because IRC is how things use to be done in the mid 90's and early 00's doesn't mean that's how things should be done in 2010 and onward. If room for improvement can be identified then I hope people make some changes and see how it works out.
<!--quoteo(post=1780915:date=Jul 20 2010, 10:34 AM:name=UnfocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (UnfocusedWolf @ Jul 20 2010, 10:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about people who don't know how to use big programs like IRC and are more familiar with STEAM friends? Did you ever think of that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are clients out there with no learning curve.
For example, <a href="http://wbeuk2.mibbit.com/?settings=54bf48e54d034a088ecc4e6c8ffd2b24&server=irc.gamesurge.net&channel=%23naturalselection&nick=NSPlayer" target="_blank">this link</a>, <i>(copied from the top of this page, the IRC button)</i> - joins the #NS2 channel, absolutely no setup required besides entering your nickname.
When the competing option is woefully lacking in almost every way and the third party software takes one brain cell to install and two to use? No, I don't see the problem.
Progress isn't actually progress unless the new is better. Just because something is old isn't an argument against using it.
My point is that being required to run a third party program then claiming it's not a barrier to entry is not accurate. Even if your argument is that there is no better alternative you still have to recognize the fact it's a barrier.
A L4D lobby system with some sort of tracking would greatly strengthen the vanilla version of the game while still allowing modded servers to exist. Progress would be to implement the system with reliability/karma tracking done in TF2lobby for quality control. I really hope something like this is supported beyond community generated IRC channels. I guess an NS2lobby could be created, but it'd be awesome to have a later added feature for pugging.
If you could open up your Steam screen overlay in game and there was a chat option in which a whole bunch of channels were available, and each of which had a different topic.
+NSAmerica
General
Help/Troubleshooting
WArs/Scrims/PUGS
etc
etc
+NSEurope
General
Help/Troubleshooting
WArs/Scrims/PUGS
etc
etc
Something like this would be awesome and it could probably be done over the steam network, however, this would be down to steam to create and not UWE.
<!--quoteo(post=1780930:date=Jul 19 2010, 10:34 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jul 19 2010, 10:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1780930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even if it was somehow possible a link to IRC channels such as #ns-scrims, #ns-clans, or #ns-pugs within NS2's menus and have the chat show right there on the menu.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is technically extremely simple to do, infact there were mods floating around for the old quake series that did this. Simply streaming chat from IRC channels to the chat window / console in quake, and allowing you to chat with the IRC channel from within the game. You can then of course join in from wherever you can get a web browser, so people can chat from work, from mobile phones etc. Without having to run the giant cludgy mess that is the steam client.
However, I think it's highly beneficial if some parts can be made less obligatory. Even if the actual league level play is handled through 3rd party options, all the stepping stones to the league don't have to use them. For example being able to organise gathers/PUGs through NS2 interface alone would be useful. At that point people get to meet some competetive players and get to see some of the possibilities of the organised play. If they get interested, coping with a few 3rd party programs for communication becomes much less of a barrier.
IRC is cheap, easy and fully functional for the purpose. Browser or client based, customisable by scripts, multiple places to talk via channels and PM. Not that anyone uses it but you can send files. It's so versatile and simple to use that for many things that it is literally the easiest tool around. Other tools have tried to replace it and have ultimately always failed, Xfire came closest.. although it just didn't work as well, it was too complex.
IRC isn't a barrier to competitive play, it's part of competitive play just as relying on team mates is.
You realize NS2 will require Steam to be running in order to download, get updates, and most importantly play. Right? If I'm wrong feel free to correct me but with Steamworks so heavily implemented into NS2 I doubt you have a choice in the matter.
However I think that IRC's system is much better when it comes to engaging a large community as a whole compared to steam
However I think that IRC's system is much better when it comes to engaging a large community as a whole compared to steam<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah yes, I see. That is a good point. I like the idea of using IRC but including a way for it open ingame. That seems like both sides are satisfied with very little draw backs.
That's the bonus of IRC being in-browser and client as opposed to Steam IM being only Steam.
So you could use your favorite IRC-Client as well as just the ingame system.
So you could use your favorite IRC-Client as well as just the ingame system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a great idea actually.
i dont know who you are but if i find you in findnsscrim i am going to ban you
i've never done such a thing lies and slander
There's still a few of us on irc people should come chat.
#findnsscrim is the cool place to hang out. You can find most of the cool people there. In #findnsscrim you can just chill and do whatever and totally relax. "Take it easy" is the #findnsscrim motto, for example, that's how laid back it is there. Show up if you want to have a good time. Another good reason to show up is if you want to hang out with friends.
you realize this needs a server run by uwe?