Bunny Hopping

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  • snooggumssnooggums Join Date: 2009-09-18 Member: 68821Members Posts: 183
    edited July 2010
    If bunnyhopping is there for evasion (don't worry about speed, that can simply be increased as the default speed) then there are several ways to allow for evasion on attack while not making skulks fly around like they have wings:

    Base speed increased, when running (shift held down) make tapping strafe a sidestep (like a double tap in Tekken) on a single keystroke or a gentle slide if held down. So as you are running down a hall you tap to strafe right and it leaps extremely quickly to the side about 6 feet, possibly sticking to a wall. Much harder to hit, more intuitive than doing figure eights with your mouse or whatever was required for BH, and easy for new players to pick up so they can then spend the time learning a logical skill that the devs can easily adjust by increasing or decreasing movement speed and side stepping distance to allow for balance.

    Heck, combine leaping, side strafing and a fast movement speed and it should be fairly easy to achieve the effectiveness of BH for skulks without seizure inducing craziness. Marines don't deserve BH skills, they can sprint and have ranged weapons already.
    Just because everyone does something does not make doing that thing right.
  • KwilKwil Join Date: 2003-07-06 Member: 17963Members Posts: 931
    Now, I'll be honest, I never figured out how to bunnyhop (always ended up going backwards when I tried, for some reason.. and a gorge attacking ass first just didn't seem to put the requisite amount of fear into the marines to keep them from loading my behind with lead) so I figure a good number of you will just simply ignore anything I have to say.. if so.. good. You're not the thoughtful types I hope to be addressing. However, that said, I had a lot of fun with the game until it basically became an exercise in masochism to play because I just couldn't keep up with those who devoted themselves to it.

    At any rate, what I see here are two competing objectives:

    Intuitive movement.
    Skill-based movement.

    How much skill does it take to walk/run/etc? Not much. So nearly any skill-based movement system will seem, at least to some degree, non-intuitive.

    Now I've made one suggestion for movement that promptly got ignored as you folks talked past each other. However, the interesting point that was brought up to me is that alien players need some skill based method of reducing damage to compensate for the skill based method of aiming. That rings quite true. But does the skill involved need to necessarily be dodging? Can it be the more strategic skill of positioning and hiding?

    Someone made the point that 4 skulks BH to a marine are dead. Fair enough. My question is, why are they BH to the marine in the first place? Why aren't they in the same room as him to begin with? Aren't the skulks supposed to be about surprise and the hidden attack? Perhaps the skill the players need to develop are those of the ninja, hiding, patience, etc.. why aren't those being devloped?

    The answer that occurred to me was map design. One of the aliens advantages is 3d movement. Lerks fly, skulks wall-climb, fades teleport. Yet map designs, for the purpose of commanding, are restricted primarily to the 2d field. Perhaps instead of arguing for or against BH then.. we should consider arguing for 3d commanding ability, thus enabling maps to be developed that favor the aliens using their natural advantages, rather than trying to come up with something that's unintuitive enough to keep the scrubs separate from the skilled.

    Just some different thoughts.
    Why doesn't my Lerk perch?
  • TeoHTeoH Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11640Members Posts: 902
    QUOTE (snooggums @ Jul 12 2010, 05:59 PM) »
    If bunnyhopping is there for evasion (don't worry about speed, that can simply be increased as the default speed)



    Not what this is about. To clarify something for people who haven't necessarily played at a higher level: Once people start to be able to aim properly, jumping is not an evasive advantage against a hitscan machine gun. Practically any form of movement that locks you into a particular path is bad, jump archs can be tracked easily. Bunnyhopping while closing distance is viable as a result of the speed advantage it gives, inspite (not because of) the dissadvantage of a more rigid movement path. As i've said, the most effective way to dodge an accurate hitscan weapon is randomly mashing left and right, because tracking becomes inpossible, prediction goes out the window, a lot of the skills that players with good aim develop become null and void. If you increase skulk base movement speed and stick with generic forward/back/left/right movement, all that happens is people mash left and right quicker.

    The speed boost from moving through the air is the lure that encourages players to adopt this form of movement instead of the brainless alternative that would be adopted if it had no speed advantage. The result is the skulks practice to develop their advanced movement skills, speeding up in the air while intentionally hitting good lines of attack, instead of mashing strafes randomly - and marines develop the aiming skills of reading and tracking skulk trajectory through the air, getting familiar with the curves they're likely to take to maximise speed and the limits of their air control. This is good for both players, and results in interesting and indepth combat that scales well for both sides.

    Dodge moves such as UT dodges for skulks, used in the context of a melee class closing on a ranged character with a rapid fire hitscan weapon, are...

    a) Simplistic and devoid of any real scaling with player skill, very limited in their possible uses and really not something any player can 'develop' their ability with over time. UT dodges work because that game has 'big shot' splash damage projectiles and shocklance combos that you can reactively dodge to the side away from - it's not something that is terribly useful if you have an impact cannon and the other guy has a minigun. Without the concept of dodging a big single shot explosive, there's really no gameplay to it at all.

    b) Likely to be dropped entirely at a high level in favour of the unpredictable mashing of strafes, as an 'auto dodge' is a move that by definition should have a predictable trajectory, and by design would need some form of penalty or cooldown upon landing in a similar fashion to UT dodges, where you essentially stop for a brief moment upon landing. If you don't have this form of penalty, here's what happens: everyone turns sideways, and 'dodges' straight at the marine, and you just gave skulks hive1 leap. If turning sideways and hammering strafe in the direction you want to go is the best approach method, again we're back to simplistic, binary movement skills that leave no room for skulks to develop any mastery of their game.

    And mastery is what you want to have in the game, it's what keeps people playing beyond the initial novelty of being in some sort of aliens movie spaceship scenario and looking at a big fleshy rhino monster. Mastery motivates people, and it results in player satisfaction from accomplishing something that they knew took substancial skill and effort. That's a feeling you can't get from Mario Party or snakes and ladders.
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  • TeoHTeoH Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11640Members Posts: 902
    QUOTE (Kwil @ Jul 12 2010, 06:13 PM) »
    Intuitive movement.
    Skill-based movement.


    There are certainly some things you can do to make hopping more intuitive and make it easier to get new players on the 'ladder' of developing that skill, it's not purely a zero-sum game there.

    If hopping is in the game, something that could be done that would make a substancial difference is adopting the quake style of jump buffering. The jump macros / jump bound to mousewheel shennanigans is purely a HL engine phenomenom, back in the quake scene where hopping started, you've always been able to hop by buffering your jump. After jumping if you release the jump button and then hold it back down again before landing, you jump again immediately as you hit the floor. You then need to release and hold again after each jump etc., you get a feel for it. This is far more intuitive than telling new players they should make a +jump;wait;-jump style macro or roll the mousewheel to jump, and you really can't say there's any depth to rolling the mousewheel as fast as you can each time you land.

    If you do this, since everyone will then be able to get the 'hop' part of hopping down properly, the air movement then becomes much easier to understand and start to use. A major stepping stone for people learning to hop in NS is that when they aren't getting the hop correctly, they can't see how the acceleration and continuation of motion really works - leading to lots of people believing they are 'hopping' when they're pretty much just pressing forward and jumping a lot.

    I'm afraid i don't have an alternative to hopping that serves the same gameplay function through different means, in 15 years of FPS games nobody has developed one yet. Intentionally creating such a thing is incredibly difficult, it took the early quake players several years just to fully explore the physics and the implications of all the little tricks they could do in that engine. It is a very simple set of physics quirks that cause all the hopping, acceleration and air control techniques to work, incredible complexity arising from a few simple rules, developing such a thing from scratch would take some real effort.
    user posted image

    -- fwd-TeoH
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  • rinerriner Join Date: 2010-01-04 Member: 69881Members Posts: 23
    QUOTE (Jiriki @ Jul 12 2010, 04:19 PM) »
    Finally. I'm not being alarmistic, I'm just saying bhoping, well a skill-based movement technique, has kept skulking interesting for me and a lot of other competitive players.


    greetings from brazil
  • DarkFrostDarkFrost Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15154Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 1,417
    edited July 2010
    Yea! Lets all pogo!

    Unfortunately, TeoH, from what it seems - noone wants to learn how to play games anymore, they just want to pick it up and be insta-gods. The number of times you have to relearn how to bunnyhop because of each game having something different. Its alot of fun working these things out, but perhaps that depends on the first game you learned to play online or what you find to be fun.

    I understand that alot of people will find proper tactical shooters fun, due to the slow pace, the predictable movements, even predictable deaths, it may even have stamina bars that only slow the pace even more.

    I also understand that alot of people will find twitch shooters fun, with their fast pace and random movements, random deaths and complete lack of respect for the laws of physics.

    Stamina bars are a gameplay blunder, I don't know who was the first, but seriously if you want realism you should first make sure that stamina bars are not in the game. The one glaringly obvious reason for this is - Being attacked, run, stop for breath??? REWIND - Being attacked, run, keep running.
    Which leads onto:
    Sprinting is also a gameplay blunder, achieving quite the opposite of what the name suggests. Because of this mindset that moving faster = defenceless, people won't sprint on the offensive. Instead they will use a sprint to run away. Sprinting into enemy owned territory would mean certain death.

    When having a debate like this thread the big question that has to be asked is.. what makes NS great? It would seem it has so many gamebreaking flaws according to both many of the people on these forums and its own developers, yet it has been played for the best part of this century so far. Its longevity has surpassed many retail games and its particular style is likely to be scripted into NS2 by the community anyway.

    My belief of what makes NS great is its unpredictability. A relevant to topic example being the way people can surprise eachother even after playing it for 8 years because perhaps the marine does a little but fast silent crouch hop onto a railing and flys over the others head. The same was true for TFC, when a scout or medic would litterarly fly past the defence.
    On a side note; I noticed that TF2 gives achievements for activities that happened regularly in TFC, is that an image of how things are? The old normal activities are now considered high skilled? I also notice that TF2's ettiquette is quite appaulling, on the CTF maps where even on the public servers of TFC offence does not fight offence, its rife in TF2.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • SyriquezSyriquez Join Date: 2005-01-29 Member: 38979Members Posts: 55
    edited July 2010
    QUOTE
    Unfortunately, TeoH, from what it seems - noone wants to learn how to play games anymore, they just want to pick it up and be insta-gods. The number of times you have to relearn how to bunnyhop because of each game having something different. Its alot of fun working these things out, but perhaps that depends on the first game you learned to play online or what you find to be fun.


    Okay.

    So your argument is that it's fun to learn a new game's unique mechanics and design considerations...while in the same breath demanding that it conform to your expectations of games from 15 years ago?

    QUOTE
    Stamina bars are a gameplay blunder, I don't know who was the first, but seriously if you want realism you should first make sure that stamina bars are not in the game. The one glaringly obvious reason for this is - Being attacked, run, stop for breath??? REWIND - Being attacked, run, keep running.
    Which leads onto:


    DoD did fine as a game. If you were running out of stamina consistently, you were doing it wrong, probably feeding back into your apparent refusal to do anything outside of a very narrow skill set.

    QUOTE
    Sprinting is also a gameplay blunder, achieving quite the opposite of what the name suggests. Because of this mindset that moving faster = defenceless, people won't sprint on the offensive. Instead they will use a sprint to run away. Sprinting into enemy owned territory would mean certain death.


    Never played anything from Battlefield, huh? No matter. You're probably an advocate of dolphin diving, despite how unforgivably retarded it is.

    QUOTE
    My belief of what makes NS great is its unpredictability. A relevant to topic example being the way people can surprise eachother even after playing it for 8 years because perhaps the marine does a little but fast silent crouch hop onto a railing and flys over the others head. The same was true for TFC, when a scout or medic would litterarly fly past the defence.


    And while we're at it, let's use MIRVs to propel a heavy to 350% movement speed (and before the movement speed cap was added, speed that was insanely high). THAT makes the game fun... Wait. No. It never did. How about we throw nail nades into the ceilings instead? That's fun too, right?

    Then of course, there's the fun in thinking about how in TFC, servers that attempted to clamp down on the bhopping breaking the game, pretty much all they had to do was block scripts. Yeah, a WHOLE lot of skill involved with the scripts running everything.
  • DrownDrown Underwater Join Date: 2002-12-02 Member: 10392Members Posts: 381
    QUOTE (DarkFrost @ Jul 13 2010, 07:22 AM) »
    Sprinting into enemy owned territory would mean certain death.


    And I supposed they strolled slowly up the beaches of Normandy. Because moving quickly would mean certain death there.
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    "There is hope, but not for us" (Kafka).
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  • Katana-Katana- Join Date: 2008-11-25 Member: 65575Members Posts: 351
    edited July 2010
    QUOTE (Syriquez @ Jul 13 2010, 05:02 PM) »
    Then of course, there's the fun in thinking about how in TFC, servers that attempted to clamp down on the bhopping breaking the game, pretty much all they had to do was block scripts. Yeah, a WHOLE lot of skill involved with the scripts running everything.


    From this sentence you have told every one you have no idea how bunny hopping actually works, congrats.

    Scripts are not needed to bhop, nor do scripts give you the ability to bhop, scripts merely make the part of bunny hop that is mechanical, repetitive, and not fun (jump timing), semi-automatic so you could focus on the fun, and challenging part, that being the use of a combination of mouse and strafe inputs to manipulate air control.
  • DarkFrostDarkFrost Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15154Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 1,417
    edited July 2010
    Syriquez -
    Firstly there is no argument from me, I don't expect to get into an argument about this. I also didn't make any demands I was merely keeping the post relevant to topic. Plus it was a direct statement to someone else.

    I played a bit of dod, strangely all I remember about it was strafe accuracy.

    Dolphin diving was quite funny to watch. However in essence you just called me retarded, you shouldn't lower yourself with direct attacks at people.

    Ok in the wide open sprawling fields of battlefield, sprint may have a place, in traveling from A to B, but even in battlefield sprinting into a smaller area i.e an occupied building, was certain death. If that was put into the tight corridor shooter style of NS2... Especially in a ranged vs melee capacity... Since you must have thought the comparrison through, I must be missing something obvious.

    Couldn't get the hang of TFC eh? It was a difficult game to get into! Could you provide evidence of the servers who attempted to clamp down on bunnyhopping please?

    Drown -
    I wonder how they managed to sprint for so long without running down their stamina bar... :/



    Does neither of you want to share what made NS great for you? Is your forum posting expertise saved only for picking negativities about something/someone?
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members Posts: 2,769 Fully active user
    QUOTE (DarkFrost @ Jul 14 2010, 07:16 AM) »
    Does neither of you want to share what made NS great for you? Is your forum posting expertise saved only for picking negativities about something/someone?

    I think I'm so fanatical about the movement exactly because it's exactly the thing creating the NS gameplay kind of gameplay I want.

    I can reconsider almost every situation, try different approaches and set up completely new situations due to the ability to reposition and strike quickly. It rewards quick game sense and dynamic responses. Combine that with some RTS scale strategy and it becomes extremely interesting.

  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi! Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation Posts: 6,132
    edited July 2010
    Well Bacillus that's tough. That was NS, on a modified Quake; GoldSrc engine.

    NS2 is on the Spark engine. It's a new game based around the NS universe and gameplay concepts.

    Bunnyhopping isn't going to be included, new movement forms for a new game on a new engine are. I don't see why we can't just draw a line under this, quit the whining, ######, insulting behaviour and pendantasism and getting 'one ups' over each other and just accept NS2 isn't going to have bunnyopping but different types of movement.

    You can whine and ###### all you want if the movement you get in NS2 when the alpha and full game are released isn't up to what you want, maybe then you can rally a move for bunnyhopping but I wouldn't get your hopes up. For now, all it is, is 'elite' vs others and a lot of unnecessary arguing and whining.


    Edit: *The #### are what you'd use to describe whining about something or what you would call a female dog, it's nothing sinister.
    blah blah blah
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members Posts: 2,769 Fully active user
    Quick notes.

    1.) I responded to frost's question, I didn't intend to whine about spark or anything. I just felt like responding to his question since it had quite a good relation to my previous posts on this thread. I'm often quite frustrated and unable to create well constructed posts, so I feel like explaining my thoughts afterwards a bit. My mistake for doing that I guess.

    2.) I didn't even mention the bloody bhop. I described the features I enjoy in NS in very general manner, movement being part of the core of that enjoyment. I exactly avoided saying that I enjoyed bhop in particular, instead I described the results of it's presence that made my game enjoyable.

    I'm sorry if I'm whining occassionally, I'm just hellishy frustrated because we can't have a proper discussion here 95% of the time.
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi! Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation Posts: 6,132
    I should mention after the first line Bacillus, it's a generally aimed comment. I realise you said nothing about bunnyhop but different engine/movement systems in the first line, which is directed towards yourself where as the rest of the post is a general "Get on with it" response to the thread.
    blah blah blah
  • Renegade.Renegade. Join Date: 2003-01-15 Member: 12313Members, Constellation Posts: 1,206
    QUOTE (Drown @ Jul 13 2010, 08:14 PM) »
    And I supposed they strolled slowly up the beaches of Normandy. Because moving quickly would mean certain death there.

    Except that there were no sprint bars in Normandy. He is not saying that is the way it should be or is in real-life combat, he is pointing out that because of the way it is implemented (i.e. you only have a limited amount of sprint), it is the way it ends up being used in games (optimal strategy). Of course you'd realize that if you weren't merely skimming his post for opportunities to insert snide remarks.
    "Why can i never be a SKUL or an ONOS why am i always a REIN?" - me, NS 1.0
    When you won't do it for support... Do It For Black Armour
    ns nostalgia • missing: pc gaming
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members Posts: 2,769 Fully active user
    Oh well. I don't think they've said that the engine and movement code are designed to be dull, cut down possible approaches and slow the game down though, so I can't see anything tough to take on that section so far.
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,727
    edited July 2010
    First things first: Make no mistake, I love bunnyhopping and I'm biased as hell. This post is an argument for implementing bunnyhopping in NS2.

    I originally wrote this for the ninelegends website and I encourage you to read it there as well. I had to cut some of it out to make it fit naturally as part of the debate in this thread. In any case the majority of it is included in this post.

    I've been following this thread with bated breath, hoping somebody would say the things I couldn't find the words to express. I was very pleasantly surprised to see this happen, as TeoH and several others clearly identified why bunnyhopping is beneficial for balance and gameplay. I can't think of anything to add to that, so I'll move on to a different, but equally important, part of the debate. I'll start off by quoting a few posts.

    QUOTE (TeoH @ Jul 12 2010, 11:44 PM) »
    mastery is what you want to have in the game, it's what keeps people playing beyond the initial novelty of being in some sort of aliens movie spaceship scenario and looking at a big fleshy rhino monster. Mastery motivates people, and it results in player satisfaction from accomplishing something that they knew took substantial skill and effort. That's a feeling you can't get from Mario Party or snakes and ladders.

    QUOTE (DarkFrost @ Jul 13 2010, 01:22 PM) »
    My belief of what makes NS great is its unpredictability. A relevant to topic example being the way people can surprise eachother even after playing it for 8 years because perhaps the marine does a little but fast silent crouch hop onto a railing and flys over the others head.

    QUOTE (Jiriki @ Jul 12 2010, 07:19 PM) »
    Its exactly the skill-based movement that keeps melee vs ranged interesting


    My point is this: Bunnyhopping is FUN!

    Bunnyhopping...
    1. Rewards time spent practicing, giving an incentive to keep playing.
    2. Gives a great feeling of mastery.
    3. Encourages creativity.
    4. Opens up new possibilities in combat.
    5. Makes it possible to create ace players on the melee side of combat.
    6. Can even create a game within the game.

    I'm going to elaborate on these points in the following, using videos from Natural Selection gameplay to exemplify.


    Bunnyhop example 1: Sub-sector rails



    This is a fairly easy but efficient jump combination to take out marines building the RT in Sub-sector on ns_veil. This is a good example of bunnyhopping creating new possibilities in combat. Without bunnyhopping, there would be zero viable opportunities for the skulk to attack the marine once he's gotten to the RT. Just straight jumping over the rails and running towards the marine is too slow and he'll be able to disconnect from building the RT and shoot the skulk down with ease. It's still a risky move though, half the time against equally skilled players, the marine will kill the skulk. Teamwork between two skulks doing the same maneuver or one distracting radically increases the chances of success.


    Bunnyhop example 2: Maintenance jump



    This is a bit more nuanced example. This isn't the only way viable way to frag a marine building the maintenance RT -- it isn't even the safest way to do it. The safest way is to go through the vents below the RT and sneak up to the marine. However in this scenario bunnyhopping creates an additional opportunity for attack. An attack option that's also spectacularly flashy. Without bunnyhopping it's impossible to get enough speed to cross the gap. Now, one could simply make the gap smaller or the skulk faster and the opportunity would be there without bunnyhopping, but that's disregarding a very important part of the equation: mastery.

    If it was possible to do it by just jumping normally over the rails, anyone could do it. There wouldn't be anything special about it. When it becomes difficult to do, it also becomes more interesting to do. Now you have to practice to be able to do this particular attack. This gives incentives to keep playing the game and rewards time spent practicing.

    This particular video is a very good example of that. Many years ago I practiced for weeks just to be able to do that jump once on an empty server. It took further months to be able to do it every time and even longer to master it in a combat situation. But it gave me a great feeling of mastery, great satisfaction, to be rewarded for my efforts. Tricks like these are why bunnyhopping makes melee vs. ranged combat more fun.


    Bunnyhop example 3: mu vs. Levitacus



    This is an example from an actual match, from the first season of ENSL back in 2005. Knife, a tournament favourite, was playing against Levitacus, the tournament dark horse, in a match that would likely decide which team got to the final. At the time Levitacus had one of Europe's best shotgunners in Talis and their marine round was highly centered on him succeeding in taking out alien RTs and skulks quickly. Obviously Knife had to stop him somehow. The original plan was the usual one: to ambush the marine offence team while they were trying to kill the RT. This is usually a 50/50 situation for both teams, but with Talis' shotgun skills they had a clear advantage.

    Mu however, thinking on his feet, managed to take out Talis through very creative use of bunnyhopping and wallwalking before they even managed to get to the first RT. That gave Knife a vital advantage in the early game and they eventually won both the round and the match. Mu was rewarded both for his time spent mastering bunnyhopping and also his creative thinking using an opportunity only available because of bunnyhopping. Pulling off something like that is the height of fun for many players, including myself.


    Bunnyhop example 4: wltrs vs. Levitacus



    This last example is also from an actual match -- the ENSL season 5 final between nL and Levitacus. In this situation wltrs was alone against two marines waiting for the RT to drop in Sub-sector, after they'd chased away the Lerk. Usually this would be a lost cause: two highly skilled marines in a large open area are almost impossible to take out for a single skulk and wltrs would've had to wait for some of his teammates to arrive. Unfortunately they are all busy defending alien RTs on the other side of the map, leaving him with no other choice but to attempt to do something by himself.

    Taking advantage of the first marine being distracted, wltrs makes his move. The problem is taking out the second player, Inva, who is on the other side of the room. Normally this would be an easy frag for Inva if wltrs tried to rush. wltrs is also aware of this, but he knows that Inva isn't expecting him to do something so foolhardy and exploits it by using bunnyhopping to fly forwards and bounce over the rails to take him out. Taking out both of Levitacus' RT cappers is a big blow to their economy and nL eventually wins the round and the match. An almost impossible frag, made possible by bunnyhopping and great skill by wltrs.

    This is a perfect example of how bunnyhopping makes it possible to have ace players on the melee side of the game. Just like Roger Federer, Lionel Messi, Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant captivate audiences by doing the impossible, doing what nobody else can, players like wltrs could take control in NS matches because there was a movement system that rewarded skill and practice. Giving skulks the ability to leap from the start will never be able to replace this. Leap by its nature is not something that truly rewards practice -- it's something anyone can get big results from without practicing much. If everyone can do it, it becomes commonplace. Nobody finds commonplace interesting.


    A game inside the game

    Lastly bunnyhopping is itself a game inside the game. Not just because practicing it is a metagame, but also because one can have fun doing it without actually playing the game.

    A few years back, myself and many other players had a lot of fun just running around on maps and finding jumps that were only possible to do through clever thinking or perfect bunnyhopping. Sometimes to get to places otherwise inaccessible, other times just for the hell of it. This culminated in several trickjumping movies that were a great success at the time. With bunnyhopping you're basically getting a free second game with the game -- is that really something you can say no to?


    Natural Selection Jumped 2 trailer



    Full quality download here.


    Natural Selection Jumped 2



    Full quality download here.


    Natural Selection Jumped



    Full quality download here.


    Without bunnyhopping none of these movies, or the many others created by other moviemakers, would've been possible to make. Without bunnyhopping we wouldn't even have been able to have fun jumping around on maps trying to find new and clever ways to use the geometry. Bunnyhopping adds immensely to the game and that far outweighs the slight negative impact it has on the atmosphere and learning curve.

    In my opinion Natural Selection had the perfect combination of free alien bunnyhopping and very limited marine bunnyhopping (bear in mind that most of the marine jumps in the trickjumping videos posted above are only possible if you throw away all your guns first). I pray to every deity that exists that a similar system will be implemented in NS2. That said, even just bunnyhopping for the skulks would make a huge impact in terms of gameplay, even if it ruins most of the fun in trickjumping.

    I would also like to point out a very common fallacy in the argument against bunnyhopping. Many opponents of bunnyhopping claim that it hurts the ambushing game. What they don't take into account is that ambushing is still a very important part of skulk play in NS, even for those who have mastered bunnyhopping. Bunnyhopping and ambushing are not mutually exclusive. In many situations, ambushing is still the best way of taking out the marines. Sometimes bunnyhopping even promotes ambushing: Hiding spots that would otherwise be too far away from the expected marine path can now be used because bunnyhopping allows the skulk to close the distance in time when the marines go past.

    Bunnyhopping creates alternatives, so that the game isn't only about finding somewhere to hide and pop out when the opportunity arises. Such gameplay would quickly become boring for the majority of the player base.

    In conclusion (tl;dr): The positive aspects of bunnyhopping outweigh the negative aspects by such a large margin that I'm absolutely convinced it should be implemented in NS2 -- similarly to how it was implemented in NS.
  • QuadLMGkillQuadLMGkill Join Date: 2010-07-19 Member: 72576Members Posts: 66
    edited July 2010
    Just had to register to say fanatic's post gives a proper finality on this topic. Anyone doubting bhopping and making FPS games more than just twitch aiming+basic team strategy needs to re-read it until they understand. It's what made NS unique, regardless of it not being intended it ended up being a blessing in disguise.

    Today's impatient consolitis kiddy crew who want everything homogenized with a low skill cap have PLENTY of title options. For people who like to have mastery over not just strategy and aim but also complex movement, let's give them at least NS2.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • alzarocalzaroc Join Date: 2003-07-26 Member: 18451Members, Constellation Posts: 63
    Fana pretty much nailed it.
    AKA: iddqd, shesaidshewas18
  • ArrowheadArrowhead Join Date: 2005-03-04 Member: 43198Members Posts: 75
    Skulk bunny hopping good. Marine bunny hopping, do not want.
  • Antonio Gramscix420Antonio Gramscix420 Join Date: 2010-07-19 Member: 72554Members Posts: 60
    QUOTE (MuYeah @ Jun 2 2010, 09:32 PM) »
    i luv 2 bunay hops

  • WarLoverWarLover Join Date: 2009-11-05 Member: 69276Members Posts: 105
    As said so many times Bunny hopping is out. It's been "replaced" with what, i'm not sure.
    If you love bhop so much and UWE doesn't implement it mod it onto your unpure server.
    I think UWE has their mind made up about this topic.
    Did It For Black Armor - DIFBA
    "Overthrowing the PC Master Gaming Race, one Black Armor at a time!"
  • rennexrennex Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2688Members Posts: 1,013
    Great article fana, but i have no hope for bhop existing in ns2 as we knew it in ns1.
    Add epic to the word filter please
    http://rennex.ytmnd.com/
  • DarkFrostDarkFrost Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15154Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 1,417
    edited July 2010
    QUOTE (WarLover @ Jul 20 2010, 12:12 PM) »
    mod it onto your unpure server.


    Thats going to be the biggest problem that this game faces. There is going to be such large divides in the community from the games onset. It will cause more fragmentation than the implementation of blockscripts could have ever dreamed of causing in NS.
  • rennexrennex Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2688Members Posts: 1,013
    QUOTE (DarkFrost @ Jul 20 2010, 06:13 AM) »
    Thats going to be the biggest problem that this game faces. There is going to be such large divides in the community from the games onset. It will cause more fragmentation than the implementation of blockscripts could have ever dreamed of causing in NS.

    I don't think the competitive scene would adopt a bhop plugin. It'd be a significant departure from the pure version. We're going to have to accept that this is a new game and so we're going to have to learn the new movement style.
    Add epic to the word filter please
    http://rennex.ytmnd.com/
  • BRICEBRICE Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72453Members Posts: 98
    During my ns days i had nothing against people who did it sometimes i died sometimes they died. Its all skills in the end.
    I never needed to use it to get along.
    Laws of physics are another thing. Yes the mere fact that aliens exist in a game is already unreal, so that makes any gravity defiance legit?
    I do not care much for if its in game or not, was just my 1sek.
  • MuYeahMuYeah Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Members Posts: 610
    QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 20 2010, 03:27 AM) »
    First things first: Make no mistake, I love bunnyhopping and I'm biased as hell. This post is an argument for implementing bunnyhopping in NS2.

    I originally wrote this for the ninelegends website and I encourage you to read it there as well. I had to cut some of it out to make it fit naturally as part of the debate in this thread. In any case the majority of it is included in this post.

    I've been following this thread with bated breath, hoping somebody would say the things I couldn't find the words to express. I was very pleasantly surprised to see this happen, as TeoH and several others clearly identified why bunnyhopping is beneficial for balance and gameplay. I can't think of anything to add to that, so I'll move on to a different, but equally important, part of the debate. I'll start off by quoting a few posts.





    My point is this: Bunnyhopping is FUN!

    Bunnyhopping...
    1. Rewards time spent practicing, giving an incentive to keep playing.
    2. Gives a great feeling of mastery.
    3. Encourages creativity.
    4. Opens up new possibilities in combat.
    5. Makes it possible to create ace players on the melee side of combat.
    6. Can even create a game within the game.

    I'm going to elaborate on these points in the following, using videos from Natural Selection gameplay to exemplify.


    Bunnyhop example 1: Sub-sector rails



    This is a fairly easy but efficient jump combination to take out marines building the RT in Sub-sector on ns_veil. This is a good example of bunnyhopping creating new possibilities in combat. Without bunnyhopping, there would be zero viable opportunities for the skulk to attack the marine once he's gotten to the RT. Just straight jumping over the rails and running towards the marine is too slow and he'll be able to disconnect from building the RT and shoot the skulk down with ease. It's still a risky move though, half the time against equally skilled players, the marine will kill the skulk. Teamwork between two skulks doing the same maneuver or one distracting radically increases the chances of success.


    Bunnyhop example 2: Maintenance jump



    This is a bit more nuanced example. This isn't the only way viable way to frag a marine building the maintenance RT -- it isn't even the safest way to do it. The safest way is to go through the vents below the RT and sneak up to the marine. However in this scenario bunnyhopping creates an additional opportunity for attack. An attack option that's also spectacularly flashy. Without bunnyhopping it's impossible to get enough speed to cross the gap. Now, one could simply make the gap smaller or the skulk faster and the opportunity would be there without bunnyhopping, but that's disregarding a very important part of the equation: mastery.

    If it was possible to do it by just jumping normally over the rails, anyone could do it. There wouldn't be anything special about it. When it becomes difficult to do, it also becomes more interesting to do. Now you have to practice to be able to do this particular attack. This gives incentives to keep playing the game and rewards time spent practicing.

    This particular video is a very good example of that. Many years ago I practiced for weeks just to be able to do that jump once on an empty server. It took further months to be able to do it every time and even longer to master it in a combat situation. But it gave me a great feeling of mastery, great satisfaction, to be rewarded for my efforts. Tricks like these are why bunnyhopping makes melee vs. ranged combat more fun.


    Bunnyhop example 3: mu vs. Levitacus



    This is an example from an actual match, from the first season of ENSL back in 2005. Knife, a tournament favourite, was playing against Levitacus, the tournament dark horse, in a match that would likely decide which team got to the final. At the time Levitacus had one of Europe's best shotgunners in Talis and their marine round was highly centered on him succeeding in taking out alien RTs and skulks quickly. Obviously Knife had to stop him somehow. The original plan was the usual one: to ambush the marine offence team while they were trying to kill the RT. This is usually a 50/50 situation for both teams, but with Talis' shotgun skills they had a clear advantage.

    Mu however, thinking on his feet, managed to take out Talis through very creative use of bunnyhopping and wallwalking before they even managed to get to the first RT. That gave Knife a vital advantage in the early game and they eventually won both the round and the match. Mu was rewarded both for his time spent mastering bunnyhopping and also his creative thinking using an opportunity only available because of bunnyhopping. Pulling off something like that is the height of fun for many players, including myself.


    Bunnyhop example 4: wltrs vs. Levitacus



    This last example is also from an actual match -- the ENSL season 5 final between nL and Levitacus. In this situation wltrs was alone against two marines waiting for the RT to drop in Sub-sector, after they'd chased away the Lerk. Usually this would be a lost cause: two highly skilled marines in a large open area are almost impossible to take out for a single skulk and wltrs would've had to wait for some of his teammates to arrive. Unfortunately they are all busy defending alien RTs on the other side of the map, leaving him with no other choice but to attempt to do something by himself.

    Taking advantage of the first marine being distracted, wltrs makes his move. The problem is taking out the second player, Inva, who is on the other side of the room. Normally this would be an easy frag for Inva if wltrs tried to rush. wltrs is also aware of this, but he knows that Inva isn't expecting him to do something so foolhardy and exploits it by using bunnyhopping to fly forwards and bounce over the rails to take him out. Taking out both of Levitacus' RT cappers is a big blow to their economy and nL eventually wins the round and the match. An almost impossible frag, made possible by bunnyhopping and great skill by wltrs.

    This is a perfect example of how bunnyhopping makes it possible to have ace players on the melee side of the game. Just like Roger Federer, Lionel Messi, Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant captivate audiences by doing the impossible, doing what nobody else can, players like wltrs could take control in NS matches because there was a movement system that rewarded skill and practice. Giving skulks the ability to leap from the start will never be able to replace this. Leap by its nature is not something that truly rewards practice -- it's something anyone can get big results from without practicing much. If everyone can do it, it becomes commonplace. Nobody finds commonplace interesting.


    A game inside the game

    Lastly bunnyhopping is itself a game inside the game. Not just because practicing it is a metagame, but also because one can have fun doing it without actually playing the game.

    A few years back, myself and many other players had a lot of fun just running around on maps and finding jumps that were only possible to do through clever thinking or perfect bunnyhopping. Sometimes to get to places otherwise inaccessible, other times just for the hell of it. This culminated in several trickjumping movies that were a great success at the time. With bunnyhopping you're basically getting a free second game with the game -- is that really something you can say no to?


    Natural Selection Jumped 2 trailer



    Full quality download here.


    Natural Selection Jumped 2



    Full quality download here.


    Natural Selection Jumped



    Full quality download here.


    Without bunnyhopping none of these movies, or the many others created by other moviemakers, would've been possible to make. Without bunnyhopping we wouldn't even have been able to have fun jumping around on maps trying to find new and clever ways to use the geometry. Bunnyhopping adds immensely to the game and that far outweighs the slight negative impact it has on the atmosphere and learning curve.

    In my opinion Natural Selection had the perfect combination of free alien bunnyhopping and very limited marine bunnyhopping (bear in mind that most of the marine jumps in the trickjumping videos posted above are only possible if you throw away all your guns first). I pray to every deity that exists that a similar system will be implemented in NS2. That said, even just bunnyhopping for the skulks would make a huge impact in terms of gameplay, even if it ruins most of the fun in trickjumping.

    I would also like to point out a very common fallacy in the argument against bunnyhopping. Many opponents of bunnyhopping claim that it hurts the ambushing game. What they don't take into account is that ambushing is still a very important part of skulk play in NS, even for those who have mastered bunnyhopping. Bunnyhopping and ambushing are not mutually exclusive. In many situations, ambushing is still the best way of taking out the marines. Sometimes bunnyhopping even promotes ambushing: Hiding spots that would otherwise be too far away from the expected marine path can now be used because bunnyhopping allows the skulk to close the distance in time when the marines go past.

    Bunnyhopping creates alternatives, so that the game isn't only about finding somewhere to hide and pop out when the opportunity arises. Such gameplay would quickly become boring for the majority of the player base.

    In conclusion (tl;dr): The positive aspects of bunnyhopping outweigh the negative aspects by such a large margin that I'm absolutely convinced it should be implemented in NS2 -- similarly to how it was implemented in NS.



    yes, this



    i'm also friggin sweet at ns. i knew i did something good in an official once!!
  • DarkFrostDarkFrost Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15154Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 1,417
    QUOTE (rennex @ Jul 20 2010, 01:19 PM) »
    I don't think the competitive scene would adopt a bhop plugin. It'd be a significant departure from the pure version. We're going to have to accept that this is a new game and so we're going to have to learn the new movement style.


    The reference was in general, not particularly to bunny hop. Plus in many games there is competitive mods.
  • tjosantjosan Join Date: 2003-05-16 Member: 16374Members, Constellation Posts: 1,335
    QUOTE (DarkFrost @ Jul 20 2010, 04:28 PM) »
    The reference was in general, not particularly to bunny hop. Plus in many games there is competitive mods.


    Yes, but most of those mods dont make almost genre-altering game changes.
  • SajSaj Join Date: 2003-01-30 Member: 12936Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 91
    I cant see them coding in the HL engine flaws just to retain BHing, It would be nice to have some kind of skill based movement speed increase for aliens though I have no idea how it could be done without being retarded.
    @ breakingPoint #bP.ns
    @ Team UK
    ..fueled by Satan..
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