Bunny Hopping

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Comments

  • Katana-Katana- Join Date: 2008-11-25 Member: 65575Members Posts: 351
    QUOTE (Runteh @ Jul 8 2010, 11:12 PM) »
    Of course there is a good argument against bunny hopping. On these forums are probably 5% of the people who bought it making 95% of the noise. Then there are a few of that 5% making lots of posts about why it should be in the game.

    Most people want to be able to jump into an online game that is intuitive and doesn't have a load of people flying round the level completely dominating. It is not fun. Like you say, it is the few who spend hours and hours (or have played fir many years) who can bh effectively. That should not be the target skill level.

    The introduction to a game should be the ability to replicate your ability to move in space in real life. Simple controls, with upgrades that you get through the game.

    If you would compare it with real life and the ability of a player to learn the complexities of a game, it is as if someone has given you a gun and sent you off to learn to be soldier. You can kill but still have to learn over time. Bunny hopping is like throwing a feather weight boxer into the ring with a heavy weight and asking him to win. It's not going to happen. It's not intuitive, it's not fun (apart to those owning) and not intuitive to the 95% who are probably paying for this game and can't be arsed to learn it along with the fact that the game is going to be complex enough already. Especially with the fact that teamplay as being a cog in the machine to work well, not the machine itself whizzing round the level at 100mph.

    I have been playing pc games for 10 + years, bh is fun, it's just not appropriate.



    Don't play the game with people who are above your skill level if it isn't fun for you. By removing heavy skill elements, you ruin the fun for those who enjoy them.

    90% of this debate is people who lose repeatedly to more serious players, but rather then blame it on the other player having invested more time/having more talent, the player who just lost, blames the loss on bunny hopping.

    The real solution is to segregate players, so that players who don't want a competitive experience don't have to play against people who are 100% serious about their gaming.
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,883
    edited July 2010
    Why is there some idea that this game is going to be watered down/ easy for new players.

    Cs is probably the simplest/most successful (it does not matter how crap you think it is, sales figures tell you otherwise) fps out on the market, yet the range in skill levels is huge. You all have some strange ideas about bunny hopping.
  • ssjyodassjyoda Join Date: 2002-03-05 Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 877 Fully active user
    Well, I would never say CS is the most successful shooter. Though it was designed year and years ago, before NS was an idea, and it still has glitches that have become part of the game that are complained about as much as BH is here. The most popular version was and still is I believe 1.6, more recent versions were "fixed," with the general consesus being that it became worse.

    A lot of people worry about the game being watered down because that is the current trend in the gaming industry today. In order to appeal to a larger crowd, games tend to be designed for the lesser skilled and more casual gamers... pushing player abilities down.

    A big problem is that players of all skill levels are mixed together, playing together. Take any sport for example, its no fun playing someone that is much better than you.. nor is any fun for the better player to play less skilled players. To cope with this, different divisions based on skill level are created, though such divisions are hard to create in a video game that doesn't have automatching. Perhaps make automatch an option, but also keep a server browser for people who want to pick where they play.

    I know I got a little off topic here....
  • TemphageTemphage Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members Posts: 1,317
    QUOTE (Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot @ Jul 8 2010, 08:28 AM) »
    I never had any problems with Jet Packs in NS.


    The only problem I ever had with Jetpacks in NS was that it allowed marines to use vents as torpedo tubes.

    It's one thing to let them into vents. It's another thing entirely to allow them to rocket through the vents at the speed of sound.
    QUOTE
    Chris0132 - "If I didn't want someone to take something of mine and use it to any and every possible end, I wouldn't put it on the internet, as anything on the internet can and will be used without permission, quoted out of context, and photoshopped into porn."
  • TemphageTemphage Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members Posts: 1,317
    edited July 2010
    QUOTE (ssjyoda @ Jul 8 2010, 12:41 PM) »
    I wonder if rocket jumping is also frowned upon by the new generation as BH is.


    The difference is that Rocket Jumping is only in a handful of games and it fits the nature of the game. BHop egoists just want to hamfistedly shove it into every game they can. Trying to put BHop into a decidedly NON-QUAKELIKE GAME like NS is like wanting to put Rocket Jumping into ARMA. How come the BHop egoists aren't ###### that NS doesn't have an instant-kill hitscan weapon too? It fits the game about as well.
    QUOTE
    Chris0132 - "If I didn't want someone to take something of mine and use it to any and every possible end, I wouldn't put it on the internet, as anything on the internet can and will be used without permission, quoted out of context, and photoshopped into porn."
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi! Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation Posts: 6,132
    Rocket jumping is a movement technique which requires skill to master.
    blah blah blah
  • TemphageTemphage Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members Posts: 1,317
    QUOTE
    Rocket jumping is a movement technique which requires skill to master.

    Thanks for stating the obvious, briktal.
    QUOTE (Lt_Hendrickson @ Jul 7 2010, 02:37 AM) »
    Everything Temphage says is right. Just because it used to be part of games doesn't mean it should be.

    I played battlefield 2142 on a server that banned jumping for evasive manuvers other than jumping over obstacles, because its dumb, unrealistic and glitchy. The server was 10000000000000000000000000x better to play on than any other server and turned a mediocree game into an amazing one. The problem was that bhopping and throwing mines became the number strat in the game.

    I assume you're talking about TacticalGamer's servers. The rules they had on the game were draconian. No evasive jumping (you could get away with a reactionary one here or there, but it was obvious when you were just being a ###### about it), no dolphin-diving, using vehicles as personal transports, crashing transports into tanks, etc. Anything that at any point someone could've gone "LAME!" to was pretty much banned.

    This effectively 180'd the game from being a chaotic spastic killfest full of crackjumping RDX-hurling monkeys and snipers into a deeply tactical game where teamwork was key. I dare any 'l33t / pr0 / vet' whatever to go try to keep up with the coordination exhibited by those players. It takes an entirely different mindset to play. To say it takes any less skill to play is complete idiocy. Skill does not always mean something that benefits the game. In this case the 'skills' that they banned were suffocating entirely different skills.
    QUOTE
    Chris0132 - "If I didn't want someone to take something of mine and use it to any and every possible end, I wouldn't put it on the internet, as anything on the internet can and will be used without permission, quoted out of context, and photoshopped into porn."
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi! Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation Posts: 6,132
    edited July 2010
    QUOTE (Temphage @ Jul 12 2010, 02:39 AM) »
    Thanks for stating the obvious, briktal.


    Instead of trolling Uranium-235; you could take on board that implies bunny hopping, an unwanted bi-product of Quake engine movement code does not require skill to master as opposed to rocket jumping; which in recent times has been created* to aid the movement of players.

    Maybe it is too much of me to expect you to work things out for yourself, even with a name change and new forum account you still haven't removed the bad parts of your personality on these forums.
    blah blah blah
  • Cereal_KillRCereal_KillR Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Members Posts: 4,943
    QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jul 9 2010, 06:50 PM) »
    You already did and your arguments have been exhausted, that's why you shouldn't bother.

    Missed anything?


    Yes you did. Look harder.
    -signed-
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members Posts: 1,024
    QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 12 2010, 06:22 AM) »
    Yes you did. Look harder.

    Epic comeback

    No you did not take a closer look
    image
    #exertus / #team.fantasy @ Quakenet
  • yourbonesakinyourbonesakin Join Date: 2005-08-06 Member: 57682Members Posts: 573
    QUOTE (Katana- @ Jul 11 2010, 12:56 PM) »
    Don't play the game with people who are above your skill level if it isn't fun for you. By removing heavy skill elements, you ruin the fun for those who enjoy them.

    The real solution is to segregate players, so that players who don't want a competitive experience don't have to play against people who are 100% serious about their gaming.

    I agree with this.
    Charlie on a new visual effect:
    QUOTE (Charlie Flayra @ Feb 10th 2011, 10:43PM)
    Oh my gosh. That's like predator mode but... on acid. That is SO cool looking. We have to figure out a way to put that in there!

    ... That is just badass.


    QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM) »
    Charlie: "To the BUS BABBLER!"
  • puzlpuzl The Old Firm Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation Posts: 4,111 mod
    Teoh absolutely owns this topic and everyone needs to read his post carefully and comprehend exactly what he is saying. It *IS* the definitive explanation for the existence of skill based movement in NS1 and the complete justification for it in NS2.

    QUOTE
    The inevitable result is that if you balance skulk vs marine at any particular skill level, your balance will be wildly off at skill levels significantly higher or lower than that.



    Retired NS1 Developer, currently making myself useful as a forum moderator - message me for any mod related requests.
  • yourbonesakinyourbonesakin Join Date: 2005-08-06 Member: 57682Members Posts: 573
    So you're saying skulks need something to negate better aiming at higher skill levels.

    Fair enough.
    Charlie on a new visual effect:
    QUOTE (Charlie Flayra @ Feb 10th 2011, 10:43PM)
    Oh my gosh. That's like predator mode but... on acid. That is SO cool looking. We have to figure out a way to put that in there!

    ... That is just badass.


    QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM) »
    Charlie: "To the BUS BABBLER!"
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,883
    edited July 2010
    Saying 'don't play with people above your skill level' is such as useless comment, because it is something that is incredibly hard to control.

    Go on any public server and you are playing with 9+ random people of different skill levels. People leave, people join.

    Then where does that end? I don't want to spend me time moving between servers to find an 'even' game.

    Take L4D2's lobby system for example, it goes to show how finding a decent and even game is one of the nightmares of the online world.

    Even then, how could that be organised by a lobby system. How exactly do you rate how good a player is? Get others to rate you out of 10? No one is going to bother... kills? What if you hang on servers where people are a lot worse than you.

    The trick is finding a middle ground between solo skill and online team work between players of different levels.

    Bunny hopping is a skill that moves too far away from team play, where as a game like L4D2 probably relies too heavily on it.

    Getting the right mix is important if this game is to be a success, especially with an RTS element.
  • JirikiJiriki retired ns1 player Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11780Members, NS1 Playtester, Squad Five Silver Posts: 611 Fully active user
    edited July 2010
    TeoH made a very good point explaining why there should be a skill-based movement. I've said this for years now, but I'll say it again. The root of the problem is that there're games with unbalanced teams, not the skills themselves. Tekken etc. have equally, if not harder skills available. I debated about possible solutions about this in another topic.

    Unbalanced teams were not really ever addressed in NS1 by development team and I think that contributed to the decline of NS1. I'm not blaming them, I'm just saying stacked teams are a big issue, and now that UWE got its own budget, addressing is in my opinion a good idea. This it not like Battlefield or some other game where there're so many players stacking it is hardly an issue. In NS1, the skill difference can be totally gross, and that just is the best feature of NS, showing how much it can scale with skill. Pick-up games with captains is a very easy solution to the issue (see TF2Lobby). Add a bit of filters (skill, region, pure/modded servers, selected server, tournamentmode) etc. and you've solved a big part of the issue. Also server should have some global stats information to balance teams if the servers want to use it.

    Runteh. In competitive games we use votable captains who pick players. This is a mechnical system that transforms all available information nicely into teams. I don't see why it wouldnt work in. Of course with dozens of thousands of players, people may not know others that well but what's why you've a) filters (same people tend to play with same settings like region etc. b) statistical data (Trueskill is the best I'd say beating KPD and ELO by a big margin).

    Bunnyhop is stuff that scales quite well with skill, especially when combined with wall-hopping and available for all classes (adds evading measures for marines). I'm all up for a similar movement technique in NS2, but most of these awesome movement techniques that were found were never intended. That's what I'm not that hopeful (unless one is found in NS2).

    Anyway, I think people should believe Teoh, puzl and others that there's a real reason why there should be a skill-based movement technique in this game. I recommended discussing possible alternatives to bhop, which would be much more fruitful than bunnyhopping around this bunnyhopping debate with same arguments heard for years now. Thus far I've heard only like leap, timed jumps, forward momentum (please no) and something else but I don't know if any of these will match properties of bhop. I'd really like for marines and other lifeforms have same techniques.

    QUOTE
    Bunny hopping is a skill that moves too far away from team play, where as a game like L4D2 probably relies too heavily on it.

    Go ask top competitive players whether bhop removes teamplay from this game and you'll be surprised. Please god no more of these "uneducated" opinions, this topic is full of them. Besides if you are advocating against movement technique for skulks, you're basically advocating for (even more) boring skulk gaming. Its already boring enough. Bhop keeps skulk game atleast half-interesting.
    ENSL Head Admin 2006-2012
  • TemphageTemphage Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members Posts: 1,317
    edited July 2010
    Considering the vast majority of NS1 players never did anything with BHop, saying that the game would be "incredibly boring" without it, or even suggesting that it was important to the game in any way whatsoever is not just an overstatement, it's basically a complete lie. You can shove that rhetoric alongside the "competitive players are ALWAYS RIGHT" garbage.

    Clearly, every time a marine reloads, he should have to play a Quick Time Event or else he drops his magazine - the game *would be incredibly trash without this skill-based reloading and will fail completely.*

    See, I can do it too. Next time you want to post alarmist bull****, go wade through the I&S forum - it's full of people who think the game would also be incredibly boring without COD-style perks and ironsights. What makes you more right than them?

    I find it incredibly bizarre that the only alien that can climb on walls has been shoehorned into its primary method of attack being to cannonball down a hallway until it runs into something.
    QUOTE
    Chris0132 - "If I didn't want someone to take something of mine and use it to any and every possible end, I wouldn't put it on the internet, as anything on the internet can and will be used without permission, quoted out of context, and photoshopped into porn."
  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 3,660
    edited July 2010
    Heh, I hate bunny hopping, but can life with it if others do it. but they should not gain speed from it if they do it.
    Just put a cap on movement speed that noone can pass whatsoever.
    Problem solved.
    image
  • ssjyodassjyoda Join Date: 2002-03-05 Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 877 Fully active user
    edited July 2010
    rob.. there already was a cap implimented in ns1..

    temphage, I don't know where you played but I always found bunny hoppers. You can't these days because a lot of old schoolers and vets left soon after 3.0 came out, myself included. stop pulling out this idea that no one ever did it... I was part of the cal league for ns, wow was that a while ago, it was almost a mandatory skill because EVERYONE could do it and EVERYONE practiced. Majority of games that succeed listen to the competative scene for balancing out a game, look over at starcraft.. Korean pros got their hands on it first and now seem to be getting the game for free because their input is necessary.

    you seem to unwilling to even compromise or discuss to find a middle ground solution.. as me and others have stated they understand that its hard to grasp and BH should be tweaked to make it easier to comprehend. Also the issue of separating players of different skill levels would help. running your mouth incoherently doesn't accomplish anything...

    oh, and your idea for pressing a button while reloading... um, Gears of War has this actually. Its there for those who want it and can learn to use it, but its not a requirement. Removing all movement based skill takes it away from everyone, leaving it in but not as a requirement gives people the option. OMG, who knew, giving the player the choice.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation Posts: 8,207 mod
    QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 12 2010, 01:22 PM) »
    but they should not gain speed from it if they do it.

    what exactly would it be good for then?
  • DarkFrostDarkFrost Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15154Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 1,417
    edited July 2010
    I don't read these forums often, I find its too full of "topic starters opinion, leads to hate, leads to reaction of hate, leads to first hate's mates joining in."

    But to open them up to find a topic spanning almost two months and 320 posts about what is essentially another casual gamer vs serious gamer argument, just blew me away.

    Wall Jumping and air control are what I believe to be the most important assets that lowly little guy has in NS. Bunny hopping... its not so important, but it gives you something to do while waiting for the other team to ready up ><

    There are far, far more concerning things I've read about regarding the development direction of this game than whether or not bunny hopping is in or not - I suppose people will prioritise differently from me though.

    *Addition for clarification - (blatant over generalisation in coming!)
    If 1 skulk is bunny hopping at 1 marine, marine wins. If 2 skulks are bunny hopping at 1 marine, marine wins. Its only when the numbers move to 4+ skulks that the marine is in trouble. I don't, never have and never will see bunny hopping as anything other than a means to move faster from point A to point B. Too much talk in this thread has the focus that it is an attack.

    If it is an attack, its an increadibly inefficient one. An attack that has success or failure dependent on luck of the alien or the marine having an off day (not skill as is being touted all over here), unless it is a grouped swarming of skulks - in which case the only skill is not blocking eachother while you bunny hop in.

    Another way of looking at it. If I bunny hop into a room and kill you, you were either distracted and not looking my way, I have silence and your not looking my way, you are unlucky enough to miss me enough for me to get enough bites to kill you or you are just at the entrance I bunny hop through and I luckilly hop right into you.

    There is also a difference between evasive jumping and bunny hopping - as mentioned in this thread somewhere else.

    Also I do agree fully with what teoh said in his post. I just see it slighly differently. And just to clarify the clarification, simple bunny hopping directly at the enemy is what I am refering to, not bunny hopping while evading which is where the "skill" enters the movement. To bunny hop is easy, to bunny hop effectively in combat isn't.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members Posts: 1,024
    QUOTE (DarkFrost @ Jul 12 2010, 05:01 PM) »
    meh

    I fear you have misinterrepted usage of bunnyhob, straight run to marine is plain insanity no wonder if you die. Bunny is rather way to gain momenturialy speed in an ambush so you can catch the marine, its not like 5 skulks should sit in same corner. It is also way to move around the map "slightly" faster.

    I'm not saying you cant kill anyone with straight bh but its not because its imba, the marine is just bad.
    image
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  • DarkFrostDarkFrost Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15154Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 1,417
    Heh I knew someone wouldn't read between the lines. clarification for the clarification is added!

    The intent was to show that there is a blatant and large divide between what people consider to be bunny hopping and using bunny hopping as some of you will.

    The post was a reply to all those out there who seem to think that what players use in game is JUST bunny hopping, in which case my post is true, and factual, the skulks are deadmeat. To bunny hop is just a way of moving from A to B.

    To use bunny hop in combat is quite different, I know this, you know this. But this thread doesn't seem to know this.
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members Posts: 1,024
    I see sorry my bad, you are indeed correct.
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  • ssjyodassjyoda Join Date: 2002-03-05 Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 877 Fully active user
    Heh, I had to read through that a couple of times.. not entirely clear. I always think of it as an evasion technique more than a means of quicker travel.
  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 3,660
    edited July 2010
    QUOTE (Align @ Jul 12 2010, 03:58 PM) »
    what exactly would it be good for then?




    'nuff said.
    image
  • JirikiJiriki retired ns1 player Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11780Members, NS1 Playtester, Squad Five Silver Posts: 611 Fully active user
    QUOTE (Temphage @ Jul 12 2010, 02:52 PM) »
    Considering the vast majority of NS1 players never did anything with BHop, saying that the game would be "incredibly boring" without it, or even suggesting that it was important to the game in any way whatsoever is not just an overstatement, it's basically a complete lie.

    How again do you back up your claims? Do you have statistics? I've played this game since version 1 I could say atleast half the players knew how to bhop but its just a guess. Of course I cannot talk for North American community or others since I was not part of them. Paraphrasing your analogy, most video gamers never played complicated games like FPS/RTS so it means NS is useless?

    I don't see how popularity numbers are really relevant. Most servers today have extralevels, siege maps, lerklifts, sporemines and what the hell. If devs would start making the game to please these people, they would ruin the game.

    And lie? Do you think its a mere conincidence that most competitive players consider bunnyhop a big feature of NS1.

    QUOTE
    You can shove that rhetoric alongside the "competitive players are ALWAYS RIGHT" garbage.

    You're exaggerating, and trying to provoke again. I never said competitive are always right. However when it comes to skill-based movement, there's nothing wrong with saying that competitive players know what they're talking about because many of them have mastered bhopping, bullet evading, wallhopping, drawing fire and skulk teamwork to know what they're talking about. Surely players who have mastered something have more to say, just like a professional hockey player has more to say about hockey rules than sunday-player even though there are always preferences underneath.

    QUOTE
    Clearly, every time a marine reloads, he should have to play a Quick Time Event or else he drops his magazine - the game *would be incredibly trash without this skill-based reloading and will fail completely.

    See, I can do it too. Next time you want to post alarmist bull****, go wade through the I&S forum - it's full of people who think the game would also be incredibly boring without COD-style perks and ironsights. What makes you more right than them?

    Your analogy is incorrect. Read TeoH's post really. I can't be arsed to repeat his point. Its exactly the skill-based movement that keeps melee vs ranged interesting and balanced.

    Finally. I'm not being alarmistic, I'm just saying bhoping, well a skill-based movement technique, has kept skulking interesting for me and a lot of other competitive players.
    ENSL Head Admin 2006-2012
  • brownymasterbrownymaster Join Date: 2009-07-11 Member: 68110Members Posts: 139
    B-dropped.

    Anyways, I'd like to see some remnant of skill based movement while moving from point A to B. Honestly, holding w is the most boring part of the game. Maybe I am hyperactive or something who likes to spam commands like SC pros and get a high APM, but bunny hopping was the way to make traveling less boring and more of a slightly skilled movement scheme. Marines had wall walk and wiggle walk too, so I constantly had something to do. They make little sense in realism, and I admit marines with wigglewalk and wallwalk shouldn't necessarily be in the game, but considering how movement based aliens are it'd be nice to keep a small portion of the bunny hop mechanism. Maybe cap the speed a little bit lower than NS and marginalize the benefit of using it after leap, but I want to be doing something for a useful reason when doing the boring runs.

    To play devil's advocate though, there is hive 1 leap now so bunny hop might just be made useless if you can just leap for much more speed, assuming it's pretty sustainable. Of course, you could "bunny hop" (airstrafe only basically) between jumps so it'd be more interesting. But at least allow bunny hopping to maintain some of the leap speed so I have something to do while moving to point A to B then w + m2.
  • JimydJimyd Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13289Members Posts: 622
    edited July 2010
    QUOTE (brownymaster @ Jul 12 2010, 11:30 AM) »
    B-dropped.

    Anyways, I'd like to see some remnant of skill based movement while moving from point A to B. Honestly, holding w is the most boring part of the game. Maybe I am hyperactive or something who likes to spam commands like SC pros and get a high APM, but bunny hopping was the way to make traveling less boring and more of a slightly skilled movement scheme. Marines had wall walk and wiggle walk too, so I constantly had something to do. They make little sense in realism, and I admit marines with wigglewalk and wallwalk shouldn't necessarily be in the game, but considering how movement based aliens are it'd be nice to keep a small portion of the bunny hop mechanism. Maybe cap the speed a little bit lower than NS and marginalize the benefit of using it after leap, but I want to be doing something for a useful reason when doing the boring runs.

    To play devil's advocate though, there is hive 1 leap now so bunny hop might just be made useless if you can just leap for much more speed, assuming it's pretty sustainable. Of course, you could "bunny hop" (airstrafe only basically) between jumps so it'd be more interesting. But at least allow bunny hopping to maintain some of the leap speed so I have something to do while moving to point A to B then w + m2.


    Exactly what I want to see if Air-Strafing stays in. You keep your current speed when Jumping, but not increasing of speed because of Air-Strafing. This would make Leaping important, for not only just increasing Speed, but for Tactical Awareness. You give away your position everytime you Leap(loud shrieking yelp) as a Skulk.

    Also eventually you would slow back down to Run Speed without doing additional Leaps due to how physics works. Every second, or milisecond, that you are touching the ground after landing from Jumping, friction kicks in and slows you down.

    So why do I point that out, well because there still is Skill needed to time your jumps accurately. Yes I know a Macro'd Keyboard or Mousewheel kind of almost eliminates this, but those devices/tricks would be much worse if you could gain speed from Air-Strafing(and there is ways to counter these devices/tricks as well too).

    So basically I support this like I have said, to summarize this topic.

    For real this time: /endofthreadprettymuch

    *****

    Lets move on to other possible new movement mechanics, like Leap and Sprint, if you really want to continue.
    Your sig was nuked as it was larger than the maximum allowed size. In future make your sig images 400x75 pixels (or smaller) and 22kb (or smaller) - Mouse
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members Posts: 2,769 Fully active user
    Once again, go through TeoH's post. It's a wonderful summary of why some kind of skill based movement seems necessary and why basic sprint implementation doesn't cut it and what kind of challenges the 1st hive leap needs to overcome.

    I doesn't particularly bother me if it's bhop in particular in the game, but I really want the points he made to be understood and thought carefully.
  • TeoHTeoH Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11640Members Posts: 902
    QUOTE (DarkFrost @ Jul 12 2010, 10:01 AM) »
    Also I do agree fully with what teoh said in his post. I just see it slighly differently. And just to clarify the clarification, simple bunny hopping directly at the enemy is what I am refering to, not bunny hopping while evading which is where the "skill" enters the movement. To bunny hop is easy, to bunny hop effectively in combat isn't.


    Interesting that you would go onto that topic because it lets me bring up another point about the mechanics of dodging and weaponry, relating to where the 'skill' is :)

    As a skulk, what you will primarily be dodging in NS are fairly accurate rapid fire hitscan weapons. There's no splash damage rocket launcher in the game, the only timed 'big shot' weapon is the shotgun but that still fires really rapidly, and is also largely only effective at short range so doesn't factor into the discussion quite so much. The type of weapon determines how the dodging works.

    Something that the Quake style of FPS gameplay does really well, that alot of modern shooters miss out on; is that there's not only a distinct skill to the aiming, but also to the movement involved with dodging as well. The depth involved with dodging in a Quake game then brings extra prediction and 'reading' into the aiming side of things and the 2 play off eachother to create much more dynamic combat. This works because Quake involves 'prediction' weapons, like the rocket launcher that requires you to predict ahead of your opponents movement, not simply infront of where he's going but also including the environment such as predicting a jump towards a door or powerup. As well as the prediction weapons Quake also has slow firing weapons like the rail and Q3 shotgun, which allow the dodging player to potentially read the opponents firing 'rhythm' and change directions just before a shot.

    NS doesn't have that. NS has fairly accurate rapid fire hitscan weapons. The thing about fairly accurate rapid fire hitscan weapons is, in the absence of more interesting movement techniques, the most effective way to dodge against them is to spaz left and right in as random and meaningless a pattern as possible. As it happens, spazzing left and right in a random meaningless pattern is not much of a deep skill. However, if you add techniques such as bunnyhopping and quakeworld air control into the mix, which may be preferrable to random spazzing because of the speed advantage they have in closing a melee vs ranged fight, things become more interesting.

    You can't randomly spaz left and right in the air, the air control is restricted enough that you can't dramatically change your motion from side to side in the same way you can on the floor - the result of that is you have to make much more significant, and as a result more controlled movements in order to dodge while hopping for speed. Typically you would try to arc across a line of fire, maybe changing direction once or twice on your way in while also trying to move in a way that maximises your speed - since the movement of the mouse when hopping is where the speed comes from.

    As a result, so long as marine weapons largely follow the design of the LMG, having a more complicated movement system like hopping has the result of making 'dodging' a far more interesting endeavour. Otherwise you're not really dodging, you're just spazzing.
    user posted image

    -- fwd-TeoH
    -- #fwd.q3f (quakenet)
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