<!--quoteo(post=1775822:date=Jun 22 2010, 09:26 AM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Jun 22 2010, 09:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775822"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The other maps in development, as well as differing in size, also use tech nodes and resource points in different ways - pairing tech nodes and res points more frequently, for example, or having an overall larger number of tech nodes. Overall I think there will be a fair bit of diversity in how each of the maps plays.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Awesome-Freaking-Tastic.
Thanks, Insane. That's the information I wanted (and expected) to hear :)
<!--quoteo(post=1775751:date=Jun 21 2010, 06:40 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 21 2010, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not a lot of time to properly respond but:
1. We can put in random spawns later (the game supports it) but for now we're focusing on doing the simplest thing so we can ship v1.0. 2. We're not shortening the games from NS1. 3. We have different skill-based movement modes that aren't BH. 4. What makes you think the teams are similar in any way? 5. NS1 maps were extremely difficult to learn and so yes, we've focused on making them less rambling and more coherent. This first map is a bit smaller then your average NS1 map, but I'm sure we'll have some nice big maps too.
I believe that by having fixed locations for command stations and hives (which seemed to work well in NS1 for the aliens), that the game becomes more about territory control. This way it means not only do you need the resources to tech up, but that your tech requires more space and is harder to defend. This leads to multiple theaters of combat with different areas having different strategic value instead of the marines having all the structures in one room back at their base. I think it will work especially well with the power grid system, although that's currently not in the game due resource constraints.
If any of these things don't work out as well as we expect we'll be able to change them as we go forward as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, thank you for replying to my ranting, it was more than I ever expected.
1. This would be awesome, as long as it doesn't come down to making it one "mod" in a collection of thousand of others. 2. Really? I remember you saying you wanted to bring down the length of a game to around 20-30 minutes, not that I can find the source... 3. Great! 4. Both teams now have a commander, and a unified resource model. 5. For me, part of the charm of NS was getting lost. I still walk around with my map open most of the time, but I realize this is something that might just be important to me. I still have this weird American view on things (even though I'm European) that bigger = better, and a vivid memory of co_maps that several times have been blamed for the problems the NS community were experiencing in the later years.
Fixed locations, okey fine, even with fixed locations for Command chairs it could be an interesting battle of territory control and bring a new element to the game - but non-random hive spawns? No. If anything, I'd make marine spawns random as well if that worked for the look of the maps.
<!--quoteo(post=1775751:date=Jun 21 2010, 07:40 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 21 2010, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. We can put in random spawns later (the game supports it) but for now we're focusing on doing the simplest thing so we can ship v1.0.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is the best approach, since the published release date of alpha was more that 6 months ago, and i realy think that the better thing to do now its develop an fast 1.0v of alpha that will need a huge set of adjusts, since the gameplay (for the mass) will be tested for the first time, so, its not the time to concern about some logical/tatics rules, that can only be tested in-game.
<!--quoteo(post=1775751:date=Jun 21 2010, 07:40 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 21 2010, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. What makes you think the teams are similar in any way?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i always laugh about it, we still dont have any info about aliens skills, so, we dont have anything to compare both teams.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>I thinks this is the time to begin to release some info about aliens in NS2, this can make the diference putting in the brain of "some players" that still think NS2 it´s a remake better textured of NS1 the concept of a new game being developed from scratch </b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1775751:date=Jun 21 2010, 11:40 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 21 2010, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe that by having fixed locations for command stations and hives (which seemed to work well in NS1 for the aliens), that the game becomes more about territory control. This way it means not only do you need the resources to tech up, but that your tech requires more space and is harder to defend. This leads to multiple theaters of combat with different areas having different strategic value instead of the marines having all the structures in one room back at their base. I think it will work especially well with the power grid system, although that's currently not in the game due resource constraints.
If any of these things don't work out as well as we expect we'll be able to change them as we go forward as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the reply!
But i do believe that having fixed locations for aliens in NS1 only worked because:
A) They had no commander who could decide "okay instead of our starting location we are going there" and if every gorge would be able to drop a hive wherever he wants it would have resulted in pure chaos.
B) They had random starting locations so the game automaticly changed where choke points would end up so there hasn't been a real need for the alien team to chose random locations as Marine relocs and random alien starting locations allready lead to quite diverse rounds.
I don't see how the fixed CC locations would change anything about where marines build their "important high tech" structures unless there is some kind of restriction in place that prevents them from building these structures whereever the the comm wants them. If they need 3 tech points to build something they will still build it in their mainbase, sure it probably won't work anymore when they lose that third techpoint (i guess that's how it's gonna work?) but they sure as hell won't build their stuff at an outside tech point unless forced to do so.
So i don't see how the restrictions of CC's only beeing buildable at tech points is gonna help with that. The tech points still will end up beeing important even if you give the marines the ability to reloc to any location on the map. Because of that i'm still puzzled by the "CC's only at tech points" concept.
But i guess changing that restriction won't be that difficult but it would lead to stupid CC spam because a marine team that didn't reloc to a tech point would end up with 4 CC's on the map if they want 3 tech points.
<!--quoteo(post=1775751:date=Jun 21 2010, 11:40 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 21 2010, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5. NS1 maps were extremely difficult to learn and so yes, we've focused on making them less rambling and more coherent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But I liked saying "wtf im lost" and getting a "PROCEED TO YOUR WAYPOINT, SOLDIER" in response...
<!--quoteo(post=1775851:date=Jun 22 2010, 02:14 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jun 22 2010, 02:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I liked saying "wtf im lost" and getting a "PROCEED TO YOUR WAYPOINT, SOLDIER" in response...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking of commands, I wonder if they have gotten a proper voice-actor to do all voices yet. It would be so cool if they got the one from NS1 to do some more again :)
Am I the only one who liked NS1 for its unpredictable games ? You could make 10 ns_eclipse in a row, with always very different games
And what make thoses games so differents ?
_Alien random hive at beggining _possiility for the commander to Reloate everywhere. Some of thoses relocation where for a strategic purpose... And others for a fun purpose (rememer it's a game) And sometimes both strategic and fun. Even a stupid relocation in a vent could bring fresh air to a game, and some new / funny action. I think everyone here have very funny memories about it.
It what made NS so fun to play.
Relocation was like poker.. stress, surprise, aggressivity, luck.
If you can't relocate, it will become very boring, very linear. And you get closer from the worst ennemy of RTS games : The existences of a "BETTER" strategy on a particular map, it take some month to figure which best strategy it is, but then, you could be sure every game are the same.
NS1 was protected (at least a little) against this with 1_ liberty for individual alien to decide of construction by themselves (so the individual could make a change for the group) 2_ random location of hive 3_ marine relocation.
Even with this alien commander... I don't know how it'll be, but one thing is sure : In NS1 in the end, If you listen to ppl, the majority always voted for MC chamber first, etc. Even if, each one, for one game out of ten wanted to try something else, there weren't enough vote to enable it. thanks to individual decision, it could happen to have DC or SC game for change (even if often less effective) But now with alien commander who can be ejected, they won't have the choice to respect the majority vote. and i'm affraid the game will become very linear.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1775753:date=Jun 22 2010, 08:45 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jun 22 2010, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some people overlook that both of these things are huge improvements over NS1 just so they can add another bullet point to a list of why NS2 is going to suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 and this is really starting to annoy me also - its like people are looking for excuses to hate this game (which they have probably pre-ordered) and I just can't understand why :S
<!--quoteo(post=1775868:date=Jun 22 2010, 09:50 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Jun 22 2010, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 and this is really starting to annoy me also - its like people are looking for excuses to hate this game (which they have probably pre-ordered) and I just can't understand why :S<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's far easier to find potential flaws than to find potential depth/fun stuff while the vast majority of our ideas are based on original NS only.
<!--quoteo(post=1775838:date=Jun 22 2010, 11:28 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eoy @ Jun 22 2010, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Really? I remember you saying you wanted to bring down the length of a game to around 20-30 minutes, not that I can find the source...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind, they want to bring the AVERAGE game time to be around 20-30 minutes. That sounds pretty close to the normal NS game time - maybe 30-40 minutes. People always seem to want the hours-long epic games that are fondest in their memory, but do they ever stop to think how rare those are? That the teams happened to be stacked well enough that they could keep going at it that long?
I don't want to have to allocate over an hour every single game of NS(2) that I play. I'd go play an MMO dungeon if that was the case. While I love it when I get into a Battlefield round that lasts over an hour, I don't want that to happen every single game.
<!--quoteo(post=1775535:date=Jun 20 2010, 05:03 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jun 20 2010, 05:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think random starting points added a whole lot. Sure it gave a bit of a guessing game, but you figured out where the start hive was extremely fast just based on where you encountered skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Instead of guessing game it improves quality and meaning of thing called scouting. In static spots the game becomes easily single patterned making any scouting almost meaningless.
With regards to concerns about size, I don't ever recall using a lot of most NS1 maps, the fighting can only take place in a few areas at once, and most of the maps were corridors that saw the occasional skirmish and little real action. Most of the map was just playing musical chairs with the ref nodes, with people blowing them up and others capping them backwards and forwards. I'd much rather have more focus on the rooms and less on the corridors, and less space in general so that people are concentrated together more.
<!--quoteo(post=1775875:date=Jun 22 2010, 11:06 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jun 22 2010, 11:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of guessing game it improves quality and meaning of thing called scouting. In static spots the game becomes easily single patterned making any scouting almost meaningless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can throw in other random elements besides spawns, blocking off corridors or opening doors. Besides 'scouting' amounts to building an observatory and pinging the hive rooms.
Even with a single room you don't know which way the enemy will expand. You don't need to randomise starting locations to have variety. Aliens always know where marines are but I assume aliens are not entirely boring to play for everyone else.
When you will have marine in jetpack rushing your first hive, I think you will LOVE thoses few extra sup corridor so the second hive has time to finish.
When map is little, marine have just to go HA and stack to win. Jp will be useless.
Against HA the good strategy was a lot of map control, getting ressources in a lot of place, so a lot of people could onos. But now..
When map are big, map control is important, there is a lot of place to controle in the same time, so marine have to split. So they have to choose between penetration force and map control.
With little size, they dont have this penetration force choice anymore. (there is not sex allusion in this sentence ;) )
If structures die fast enough then you can easily make map control a problem even on a smaller map. And HAs can be nerfed or JPs buffed as necessary. This isn't NS1.
Yeah, buff / nerf things, the solution to every problem in RTS games, the solution that make every people quit. Plz stop posting if it's to say crap like this.
Make a structure die faster ? you can't do that. structures need a lot of vital points if you want them to gather ressources enough. Make some RT die with 1 hit and you'll see you'ill spend the game in both team with 0 ressoures. You solve some problems by creating others. Great.
Moreover with little map, teleporter technology become useless.
I'm really affraid to have some linear game and "3 strategy based game" here, where NS1 had REALLY infinite possibility. And it's like i'm not the only one being affraid of that.
This is not strategy choice who were made here, it's marketting choice to make the game playable by everyone, to sell more and get more money.. And even if I can understand that choice, it'll be like the music made to please everyone : it becomes, little by little , something without risk and without any special interest. Same for Team Fortress Classic which were amazing, and TFC2 which is just a flavorless game. (made of everyone)
I don't see how every game will be the same with static spawns, SC proleague games have had the same matchups and static spawns for both players, yet the games are never the same. Why? The little things starting at the beginning turn out differently. Although dynamic hive spawns made a huge difference, who's to say a lost push at the very beginning won't? Who says that marines will win the battle at room X every game and thus make the game the same? No experience is ever exactly the same, and the chances of repeating the same exact situation only happens with extremely stacked teams. Otherwise, the games WILL be different. I don't get why people are dramatizing so many of these changes into making the game stale and repetitive when every other game has much more static gameplay that's still replayable.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This full sized NS2 map will ship with the Alpha, so those players who have pre-ordered the game will soon will be roaming its atmospheric hallways and fighting intense battles in its beautifully detailed areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"soon" means half year? omg please stop such statements.
<!--quoteo(post=1775899:date=Jun 23 2010, 05:23 AM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ Jun 23 2010, 05:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see how every game will be the same with static spawns, SC proleague games have had the same matchups and static spawns for both players, yet the games are never the same. Why? The little things starting at the beginning turn out differently. Although dynamic hive spawns made a huge difference, who's to say a lost push at the very beginning won't? Who says that marines will win the battle at room X every game and thus make the game the same? No experience is ever exactly the same, and the chances of repeating the same exact situation only happens with extremely stacked teams. Otherwise, the games WILL be different. I don't get why people are dramatizing so many of these changes into making the game stale and repetitive when every other game has much more static gameplay that's still replayable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SC has way more unit types, upgrades and possible combinations than NS will ever have. Because of this it offers way more different tactics a player can use resulting in a depth where new strats get discovered even years after the release of the game.
You can't really compare that to NS... what you can compare NS to is team based MP shooters. Take counter strike and de_dust2 for example, the map mostly plays out the same in the beginning. You have your 3 choke points where first contact between the teams will happen after the round starts, it will allways be at least one of these points and depending on what happened at these points the further outcome will be very predictable. It's been my favorite CS strat to just break trough one of these points to attack the enemy from the back at the other 2 chokepoints, worked like a charm in 80% of the cases and lead to very repetive gaming experience. This also applies to other team based MP games that don't have any map randomization involved, team movement is way to predictable in these.
It's one of these things that makes NS unique compared to other games out there..
Just a small example: Imagine playing ns_veil and marines can't reloc and aliens allways start at pipe. Than you would spent most of your time at cargo/dbl in most of the rounds. Sub would merely be a side RT and west access would be rarely visited.
The randomness of alien spawn and marine relocs helps that most parts of the map get their fair share of attention so they don't end up feeling useless.
If that is true though, you can get exactly the same effect by making smaller maps in greater numbers.
Instead of making one huge map, make two small maps, that way you can have the same amount of ground used, except each individual map is easier to understand and navigate because there's no risk of wandering into some unused area.
I don't understand.. What is the problem in being lost a little at the beginning ? You can make ONE simple map for newbie to learn the game, and still have complexity for the rest.
Don't think I ever really memorised the layout of half the maps.
Dead space in maps is never a good thing, you should always have the map space in use, otherwise there is no point having it. If you have space that isn't being used, either make changes to encourage its use, especially if other parts are too congested, or remove it.
NS1 usually had very limited confrontation, the entire game was a constant skirmish with no real heavy fighting until one side was about to win, either the marines started sieging hives or the aliens started onosing marine bases, either way it's a curb stomp battle at that point.
Much better to have an FPS game where you get lots of good action going for the duration of the game rather than lots of running around chasing ref nodes.
If you have tiny map, with one vent and two boxes, how skulks are supposed to ambush ? their hiding spot will be too predictable... If there isn't a lot of way to be sure having some peace in some part of the map, how the gorgies are supposed to build ?
Big map allowed to have a lot of space to scout, a lot of time for moving from one side to another.. so you could make surprise attack, or surprise relocation. With tiny map you can't.
Winning by going around the entire enemy force and blowing up the hive/comm chair with little resistance because the map was so big the enemy couldn't find your army. What a gloriously entertaining game that is.
I play action games to fight, not to avoid it and play target practice with inanimate objects. The entire game exists only as a method of getting players to fight each other, the victory conditions are there to encourage your dudes to charge at their dudes and vice versa.
<!--quoteo(post=1775949:date=Jun 23 2010, 09:20 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 23 2010, 09:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Winning by going around the entire enemy force and blowing up the hive/comm chair with little resistance because the map was so big the enemy couldn't find your army. What a gloriously entertaining game that is.
I play action games to fight, not to avoid it and play target practice with inanimate objects. The entire game exists only as a method of getting players to fight each other, the victory conditions are there to encourage your dudes to charge at their dudes and vice versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you prefer to remove tactical aspects like scouting / spreading for example I dare say you would be better off with another game.
I enjoy fps games that let me use my head to help kill enemies, but the object phrase in that sentence is <i>kill enemies.</i> Not <i>avoid enemies.</i>
Things like looking around your surroundings to flank the enemy or get into a better position to shoot them or avoid getting shot as much; good.
Things that encourage you to ignore enemies entirely and focus on emptying clip after clip into static target; bad.
You don't need huge maps for the former, you can and should do that with good room layouts. Rooms are the entire basis of FPS maps, all fighting should occur in rooms because corridors are not fun to fight in.
It's an RTS GAME too. not a FPS only. In RTS you need to have big map to have some aspect of "MAP CONTROL" you nead to have empty spot to develop secondary base, you need to have space to make diversion usefull so you can rush the ennemy base and not stay stuck. You need to make a choice of what region of the map you want to control, and sacrifice another part. That's what is called strategy.
It's an RTS game for one player, for everyone else it's an FPS. Breaking the FPS to cater to the RTS is silly. There is plenty of room for map control in the layouts shown, many possible combinations of room ownership.
Comments
Awesome-Freaking-Tastic.
Thanks, Insane. That's the information I wanted (and expected) to hear :)
1. We can put in random spawns later (the game supports it) but for now we're focusing on doing the simplest thing so we can ship v1.0.
2. We're not shortening the games from NS1.
3. We have different skill-based movement modes that aren't BH.
4. What makes you think the teams are similar in any way?
5. NS1 maps were extremely difficult to learn and so yes, we've focused on making them less rambling and more coherent. This first map is a bit smaller then your average NS1 map, but I'm sure we'll have some nice big maps too.
I believe that by having fixed locations for command stations and hives (which seemed to work well in NS1 for the aliens), that the game becomes more about territory control. This way it means not only do you need the resources to tech up, but that your tech requires more space and is harder to defend. This leads to multiple theaters of combat with different areas having different strategic value instead of the marines having all the structures in one room back at their base. I think it will work especially well with the power grid system, although that's currently not in the game due resource constraints.
If any of these things don't work out as well as we expect we'll be able to change them as we go forward as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, thank you for replying to my ranting, it was more than I ever expected.
1. This would be awesome, as long as it doesn't come down to making it one "mod" in a collection of thousand of others.
2. Really? I remember you saying you wanted to bring down the length of a game to around 20-30 minutes, not that I can find the source...
3. Great!
4. Both teams now have a commander, and a unified resource model.
5. For me, part of the charm of NS was getting lost. I still walk around with my map open most of the time, but I realize this is something that might just be important to me. I still have this weird American view on things (even though I'm European) that bigger = better, and a vivid memory of co_maps that several times have been blamed for the problems the NS community were experiencing in the later years.
Fixed locations, okey fine, even with fixed locations for Command chairs it could be an interesting battle of territory control and bring a new element to the game - but non-random hive spawns? No. If anything, I'd make marine spawns random as well if that worked for the look of the maps.
I think this is the best approach, since the published release date of alpha was more that 6 months ago, and i realy think that the better thing to do now its develop an fast 1.0v of alpha that will need a huge set of adjusts, since the gameplay (for the mass) will be tested for the first time, so, its not the time to concern about some logical/tatics rules, that can only be tested in-game.
<!--quoteo(post=1775751:date=Jun 21 2010, 07:40 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 21 2010, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. What makes you think the teams are similar in any way?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i always laugh about it, we still dont have any info about aliens skills, so, we dont have anything to compare both teams.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>I thinks this is the time to begin to release some info about aliens in NS2, this can make the diference putting in the brain of "some players" that still think NS2 it´s a remake better textured of NS1 the concept of a new game being developed from scratch
</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
If any of these things don't work out as well as we expect we'll be able to change them as we go forward as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the reply!
But i do believe that having fixed locations for aliens in NS1 only worked because:
A) They had no commander who could decide "okay instead of our starting location we are going there" and if every gorge would be able to drop a hive wherever he wants it would have resulted in pure chaos.
B) They had random starting locations so the game automaticly changed where choke points would end up so there hasn't been a real need for the alien team to chose random locations as Marine relocs and random alien starting locations allready lead to quite diverse rounds.
I don't see how the fixed CC locations would change anything about where marines build their "important high tech" structures unless there is some kind of restriction in place that prevents them from building these structures whereever the the comm wants them. If they need 3 tech points to build something they will still build it in their mainbase, sure it probably won't work anymore when they lose that third techpoint (i guess that's how it's gonna work?) but they sure as hell won't build their stuff at an outside tech point unless forced to do so.
So i don't see how the restrictions of CC's only beeing buildable at tech points is gonna help with that. The tech points still will end up beeing important even if you give the marines the ability to reloc to any location on the map. Because of that i'm still puzzled by the "CC's only at tech points" concept.
But i guess changing that restriction won't be that difficult but it would lead to stupid CC spam because a marine team that didn't reloc to a tech point would end up with 4 CC's on the map if they want 3 tech points.
But I liked saying "wtf im lost" and getting a "PROCEED TO YOUR WAYPOINT, SOLDIER" in response...
Speaking of commands, I wonder if they have gotten a proper voice-actor to do all voices yet.
It would be so cool if they got the one from NS1 to do some more again :)
You could make 10 ns_eclipse in a row, with always very different games
And what make thoses games so differents ?
_Alien random hive at beggining
_possiility for the commander to Reloate everywhere.
Some of thoses relocation where for a strategic purpose...
And others for a fun purpose (rememer it's a game)
And sometimes both strategic and fun.
Even a stupid relocation in a vent could bring fresh air to a game, and some new / funny action.
I think everyone here have very funny memories about it.
It what made NS so fun to play.
Relocation was like poker.. stress, surprise, aggressivity, luck.
If you can't relocate, it will become very boring, very linear.
And you get closer from the worst ennemy of RTS games :
The existences of a "BETTER" strategy on a particular map, it take some month to figure which best strategy it is,
but then, you could be sure every game are the same.
NS1 was protected (at least a little) against this with
1_ liberty for individual alien to decide of construction by themselves (so the individual could make a change for the group)
2_ random location of hive
3_ marine relocation.
Even with this alien commander...
I don't know how it'll be, but one thing is sure :
In NS1 in the end, If you listen to ppl, the majority always voted for MC chamber first, etc.
Even if, each one, for one game out of ten wanted to try something else, there weren't enough vote to enable it.
thanks to individual decision, it could happen to have DC or SC game for change (even if often less effective)
But now with alien commander who can be ejected, they won't have the choice to respect the majority vote.
and i'm affraid the game will become very linear.
+1
and this is really starting to annoy me also - its like people are looking for excuses to hate this game (which they have probably pre-ordered) and I just can't understand why :S
and this is really starting to annoy me also - its like people are looking for excuses to hate this game (which they have probably pre-ordered) and I just can't understand why :S<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's far easier to find potential flaws than to find potential depth/fun stuff while the vast majority of our ideas are based on original NS only.
Keep in mind, they want to bring the AVERAGE game time to be around 20-30 minutes. That sounds pretty close to the normal NS game time - maybe 30-40 minutes. People always seem to want the hours-long epic games that are fondest in their memory, but do they ever stop to think how rare those are? That the teams happened to be stacked well enough that they could keep going at it that long?
I don't want to have to allocate over an hour every single game of NS(2) that I play. I'd go play an MMO dungeon if that was the case. While I love it when I get into a Battlefield round that lasts over an hour, I don't want that to happen every single game.
Instead of guessing game it improves quality and meaning of thing called scouting. In static spots the game becomes easily single patterned making any scouting almost meaningless.
<!--quoteo(post=1775875:date=Jun 22 2010, 11:06 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jun 22 2010, 11:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775875"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of guessing game it improves quality and meaning of thing called scouting. In static spots the game becomes easily single patterned making any scouting almost meaningless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can throw in other random elements besides spawns, blocking off corridors or opening doors. Besides 'scouting' amounts to building an observatory and pinging the hive rooms.
Even with a single room you don't know which way the enemy will expand. You don't need to randomise starting locations to have variety. Aliens always know where marines are but I assume aliens are not entirely boring to play for everyone else.
</b>
:)
When you will have marine in jetpack rushing your first hive, I think you will LOVE thoses few extra sup corridor so the second hive has time to finish.
When map is little, marine have just to go HA and stack to win.
Jp will be useless.
Against HA the good strategy was a lot of map control, getting ressources in a lot of place, so a lot of people could onos.
But now..
When map are big, map control is important, there is a lot of place to controle in the same time, so marine have to split.
So they have to choose between penetration force and map control.
With little size, they dont have this penetration force choice anymore.
(there is not sex allusion in this sentence ;) )
Plz stop posting if it's to say crap like this.
Make a structure die faster ? you can't do that. structures need a lot of vital points if you want them to gather ressources enough.
Make some RT die with 1 hit and you'll see you'ill spend the game in both team with 0 ressoures.
You solve some problems by creating others. Great.
Moreover with little map, teleporter technology become useless.
I'm really affraid to have some linear game and "3 strategy based game" here, where NS1 had REALLY infinite possibility.
And it's like i'm not the only one being affraid of that.
This is not strategy choice who were made here, it's marketting choice to make the game playable by everyone, to sell more and get more money..
And even if I can understand that choice, it'll be like the music made to please everyone : it becomes, little by little , something without risk and without any special interest.
Same for Team Fortress Classic which were amazing, and TFC2 which is just a flavorless game. (made of everyone)
But it's just my opinion.
After all "all game is different".
"soon" means half year? omg please stop such statements.
SC has way more unit types, upgrades and possible combinations than NS will ever have. Because of this it offers way more different tactics a player can use resulting in a depth where new strats get discovered even years after the release of the game.
You can't really compare that to NS... what you can compare NS to is team based MP shooters. Take counter strike and de_dust2 for example, the map mostly plays out the same in the beginning. You have your 3 choke points where first contact between the teams will happen after the round starts, it will allways be at least one of these points and depending on what happened at these points the further outcome will be very predictable. It's been my favorite CS strat to just break trough one of these points to attack the enemy from the back at the other 2 chokepoints, worked like a charm in 80% of the cases and lead to very repetive gaming experience. This also applies to other team based MP games that don't have any map randomization involved, team movement is way to predictable in these.
It's one of these things that makes NS unique compared to other games out there..
Just a small example: Imagine playing ns_veil and marines can't reloc and aliens allways start at pipe. Than you would spent most of your time at cargo/dbl in most of the rounds. Sub would merely be a side RT and west access would be rarely visited.
The randomness of alien spawn and marine relocs helps that most parts of the map get their fair share of attention so they don't end up feeling useless.
Instead of making one huge map, make two small maps, that way you can have the same amount of ground used, except each individual map is easier to understand and navigate because there's no risk of wandering into some unused area.
What is the problem in being lost a little at the beginning ?
You can make ONE simple map for newbie to learn the game, and still have complexity for the rest.
After some days you don't get lost anymore.
Dead space in maps is never a good thing, you should always have the map space in use, otherwise there is no point having it. If you have space that isn't being used, either make changes to encourage its use, especially if other parts are too congested, or remove it.
NS1 usually had very limited confrontation, the entire game was a constant skirmish with no real heavy fighting until one side was about to win, either the marines started sieging hives or the aliens started onosing marine bases, either way it's a curb stomp battle at that point.
Much better to have an FPS game where you get lots of good action going for the duration of the game rather than lots of running around chasing ref nodes.
their hiding spot will be too predictable...
If there isn't a lot of way to be sure having some peace in some part of the map, how the gorgies are supposed to build ?
Big map allowed to have a lot of space to scout, a lot of time for moving from one side to another..
so you could make surprise attack, or surprise relocation.
With tiny map you can't.
I play action games to fight, not to avoid it and play target practice with inanimate objects. The entire game exists only as a method of getting players to fight each other, the victory conditions are there to encourage your dudes to charge at their dudes and vice versa.
I play action games to fight, not to avoid it and play target practice with inanimate objects. The entire game exists only as a method of getting players to fight each other, the victory conditions are there to encourage your dudes to charge at their dudes and vice versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you prefer to remove tactical aspects like scouting / spreading for example I dare say you would be better off with another game.
Things like looking around your surroundings to flank the enemy or get into a better position to shoot them or avoid getting shot as much; good.
Things that encourage you to ignore enemies entirely and focus on emptying clip after clip into static target; bad.
You don't need huge maps for the former, you can and should do that with good room layouts. Rooms are the entire basis of FPS maps, all fighting should occur in rooms because corridors are not fun to fight in.
In RTS you need to have big map to have some aspect of "MAP CONTROL"
you nead to have empty spot to develop secondary base, you need to have space to make diversion usefull so you can rush the ennemy base and not stay stuck.
You need to make a choice of what region of the map you want to control, and sacrifice another part.
That's what is called strategy.
If you just want Deathmatch, go TFC2