Development Blog Update - Design of ns2_tram

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Comments

  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    I tend to totally overkill my speculation of the gameplay features, but even my chrystal ball fails to show how the rounds are going to play out. Maybe we should wait at least until the tech tree and first glance at the balance before everyone types out their killer strategies for the map.
  • PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
    edited June 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1775346:date=Jun 18 2010, 11:24 PM:name=WarLover)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WarLover @ Jun 18 2010, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/files/ns2/ns2_tram/NS2_Alien_Start_Screenshot.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    What are those weird pink lumps in the background? Eggs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    how did you find everytime these giant pictures?
    I see only the tiny netbook pictures even if i click on the thumbs :/
    But did you see on the picture some dynamic infestation or some alien elements except the hive and eggs?
    I am sure its just posed ^^


    Anyway i like it but i would prefer see the Fade.
  • JAmazonJAmazon Join Date: 2009-02-21 Member: 66503Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1775571:date=Jun 20 2010, 08:19 AM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Jun 20 2010, 08:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->how did you find everytime these giant pictures?
    I see only the tiny netbook pictures even if i click on the thumbs :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Theres a little magnifying glass in the corner of the popped out pictures that links to a full size image.
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    edited June 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1775571:date=Jun 20 2010, 05:19 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Jun 20 2010, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775571"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->how did you find everytime these giant pictures?
    I see only the tiny netbook pictures even if i click on the thumbs :/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    welcome to the internet.....
  • PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
    edited June 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1775572:date=Jun 20 2010, 09:23 AM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Jun 20 2010, 09:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Theres a little magnifying glass in the corner of the popped out pictures that links to a full size image.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Thank you, i did not saw because my browser overreide the colours



    @schkorpio
    Grow up and stop trolling kid...





    [wrong quote]
  • StarClawsStarClaws Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 9974Members
    Looks great. 1 complaint is the top resource (Conveyor) has a vent that you can strafe between the hallway and the resource room covering both entrances as a single marine. I see a lot of kills here on trapped aliens. It will be a great early parasiting location but useless after early game unless another alien controls that hallway.

    <b>Big thanks to Olmy!!!</b> I hope you continue making maps for this game long after NS2 is released.

    Not sure if the tram will even move folks.

    Skulks may still have bunny hop, maps are smaller to ensure turtles don't last as long. And this is just one map.

    Often marines or aliens would sit inside an area and just defend because they were stuck inside making it dull and drawn out. Which is why you should take note that all but 2 locations have 3 exits not counting the vents. While NS1 hives/marine_start generally had 2 exits and some vents.

    Maps will be a lot faster now though as aliens can travel across the map and support fellow aliens and marines will now have to move together a bit more to combat 1 hive leap and increased mobility.

    This is to counter one marine being able to solo quite a few skulks as the single skulk won't have to wait long for reinforcements and gorge's turtle will allow skulks to get there in time to save them.

    The games will be even more epic. But more fast-paced epic instead of what you call boring turtle and standing around waiting on resources for 8 hours epic.

    Gorge armor and skulk leap will make the early game for aliens fun. Group of marines sprinting for early pressure or quick flanks will make it interesting. It IS a different game but it is shaping up to be even more fun than the original. Just hope for a lot of maps.
  • Paul-HewsonPaul-Hewson Join Date: 2008-02-25 Member: 63737Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1775338:date=Jun 18 2010, 11:10 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 18 2010, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You got it. The squares are "tech points" which is where marines can build a Command Station and aliens can build a Hive. The circles are resource points where marines can build an Extractor and aliens can build a Harvester (identical to the resource nozzles from NS1).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Does that means Marines can't build the "base" where they want to ? They are limited like the aliens for the hive now ?
    On the other hand the spawn (for aliens) is static like the Marines now ?

    Edit : And what about the "power grid design". Is this still part of the game ?
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    Don't really know why people keep complaining about the map's visuals.

    I think it already looks good considering that the lighting and all that polish isn't done yet.
    We community mappers can't test gameplay and only have a vague idea how ns2 is going to play out, so of course we play around with the visuals and put more effort into that first.

    Olmy has to follow the exact process they describe in their guidelines so it's no surprise that layout testing comes first and polish later.
    If you've seen Olmy's work so far, you should be confident that this map will turn out great once the gameplay is established.

    Playtesting the alpha/beta will show, if it is a good idea to put so much effort into planning a map, or wether they have to change so much that part of the guideline process is rendered redundant.
    But nevertheless, it's always good to start from a decent basis than to rebuild almost the whole map due to gameplay issues.
  • SkipjackSkipjack Join Date: 2005-04-13 Member: 48323Members, Constellation
    plz move away from those dark maps. as far as i have seen screenshots all maps which are in develoment have that dark style.
    but the thing is when u look at the most famous and most played maps in ns1 (veil, tanith, eclipse, origin) u wont find any of those black holes which are the new ns2 maps.
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    edited June 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1775586:date=Jun 20 2010, 03:08 PM:name=Skipjack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skipjack @ Jun 20 2010, 03:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775586"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->plz move away from those dark maps. as far as i have seen screenshots all maps which are in develoment have that dark style.
    but the thing is when u look at the most famous and most played maps in ns1 (veil, tanith, eclipse, origin) u wont find any of those black holes which are the new ns2 maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Agreed.
    You have to consider those players that enjoy the moody maps though.
    And I think the glowing eyes of the skulk (or even all aliens?) is a good attempt to level the playing field a bit for users with different gamma.
  • ClaviClavi Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68389Members
    From my point of view, the promblem in this game wont be grafics or lights.. but the gameplay. Some more detail about the fixed startig locations.. and teck points could be more useful. Fixed CC build spots and non random Hive start location is a balance braker.

    There was a balance in the fact that the hives could be builded in fixed spots but they could start at any of those spots.. it added variety. same goes for fixed marine start / non restricted CC buid.

    Also.. the easy expansion .. I hope it remains only to this map.. I hope it wont be the same for all..
  • TSSTSS Join Date: 2010-05-11 Member: 71716Members
    The map itself looks good. Sure lightings bland but lighting comes *last* since it makes no sense to set up lighting for stuff that isn't even there yet. I'm pretty sure this will work out fine.

    On the relocate issue, there's 2 options: redesigning the game to take it into account (not very likely) or incorperate the idea into a map. so how about this:

    <img src="http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3598/nsvolcano.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    First person to say there are too many techpoints gets a cookie of the obvious.

    Basically the idea is, your going to get to tech 3 anyway, but will you have the resources to do so? Since both starts *do not* have a resource nozzle, relocating becomes not only possible, but tactically likely. Will you put up 3 hives and go for center resource domination, or do you establish a far away base and work with forward attack outposts?

    It's just something i drew up quickly to see what other people think. The actual map would be Ginormagantic, i had a spare hour so i did some little editing and that outer circle pretty much comes down to 20k inches across :P takes 2 minutes to walk straight across the map, and as you can see, you cannot walk straight across the map :P I imagine this beeing some sort of hot air powerstation atop of a volcano. That wouldn't make sense but neither does the layout and it would be an epic sight.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    cant wait for big game hunters in ns2
  • DestrockDestrock Join Date: 2005-01-14 Member: 35500Members
    TSS its the kind of map i prefer. its not "real" but i like when both team are 100 % balanced. Both team play with exactly the same map so if a team lose its not because of the map but because of the player.

    + its fun for gorgy we can make some web and a couple of offense tower for blocking a way =)

    I LIKE BEING A FATTY LOL
  • GeneralBowserGeneralBowser Join Date: 2010-05-19 Member: 71801Members
    edited June 2010
    I actually quite like the layout of the map. I've always enjoyed the smaller ns maps more, and never really liked huge dark maps where all areas appeared to be similar.
    So yes to the layout, but no to the darkness of the map. Its no fun trying to hit something you can't see. Alternatively I could agree with night goggles for marines as upgrade and standard for alliens..
  • tommydtommyd Creator of ns_tanith, co_pulse and co_faceoff Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 40Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Developer
    TSS: Looks like a RTS map layout. While ok for a pure RTS, the problem for a with such a huge map in a FPS is that there are basically no chokepoints. One of the goals in NS2 is to streamline the map so the action is focused in only a couple of spots (which is better for FPS). Also, with all those TPs and RTs in the middle, there's no reason to go to the edges.

    Would be interesting to see an RT-less MS/AS, though. Of course, we don't know how the resource system functions yet, so its viability is in question...
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    Looks like you rely on resource nodes to power tech points. A resource nodeless marine/alien spawn seems silly.
  • davidcavalcantedavidcavalcante Join Date: 2009-06-08 Member: 67754Members
    Don't know why, but your map just made me remember of the Motion Sensor gadget of the class sniper in the game Bad Company 2.
    <img src="http://faqsmedia.ign.com/faqs/image/article/107/1074829/motion_sensor.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    I suppose it would be ideal to provide <i>support</i> for random starting points (out of a mapper-designated set), so perhaps it'd either be really easy to mod in or you'd have some maps with random starting points, some not.
    Consumers of FPSes these days seem to be familiar enough with different game modes, so just make sure they're properly notified and everything should be just dandy.
  • TSSTSS Join Date: 2010-05-11 Member: 71716Members
    Thats because of the round+liniar shapes i guess :P

    The layout was just a quick design made in an hour or 2 with relocating in mind. Relocating was also about making your own chokepoints and forward attack bases etc. And it couldn't hurt having 1 map amongst tons of others which chokepoints that highlight the RTS side more.

    And ofcourse you could make a box-;ike mirror design with just as many techpoints but a different layout, where one would relocate based on their own playing style (have a dark, remote point, have a close quarters battle one etc).

    At best it's made to inspire others and at tops for a basic design in alpha testing of the concept. At the very least it's already shown there's people liking this train of thought :p
  • PipiPipi Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69550Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1775626:date=Jun 20 2010, 03:45 PM:name=davidcavalcante)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (davidcavalcante @ Jun 20 2010, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't know why, but your map just made me remember of the Motion Sensor gadget of the class sniper in the game Bad Company 2.
    <img src="http://faqsmedia.ign.com/faqs/image/article/107/1074829/motion_sensor.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    There are therapies for that, you know.
  • davidcavalcantedavidcavalcante Join Date: 2009-06-08 Member: 67754Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1775666:date=Jun 20 2010, 10:25 PM:name=Pipi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pipi @ Jun 20 2010, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are therapies for that, you know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I was expecting something like that. :D
    That's just my imagination floating.
  • radforChristradforChrist USA Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6871Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Subnautica Playtester
    I know it's not in Alpha, so all said is completely speculative, but I do like the idea of random start locations.

    However, since the marines and Aliens share tech points, and no simple location is inherently Kharaa or TSA, what if both the marines AND aliens had random start points, and it always meant the farthest tech point from each other. Each round is like a round robin where the marines may start where aliens did last round, and aliens in the previous MS.

    This means that mappers have to make every techpoint marine/kharaa neutral, but the ramifications of this seem awesome to me.


    Besides, I know within weeks people will be altering via scripting, and I must admit I am patiently waiting for NS1 play-style for nostalgia's sake, but I see no reason against random starts for both teams. Have the devs thought through, or playtested this scenario?
  • TSSTSS Join Date: 2010-05-11 Member: 71716Members
    Techpoints still get skipped by the editor test, so atleast no-one of the community has tried to make it work.

    I'm waiting on alpha to see what happens if you set all 5/6 techpoints on the map to "neutral" in the editor (tech points can be set to marine only, alien only, or both teams can build here in the editor). I'm guessing the marine start location takes the closest one but it would be nice if you could make "random" maps this way.
  • kuperayekuperaye Join Date: 2003-03-14 Member: 14519Members, Constellation
    Looks good but a little dark for my tastes. But hopefully this will play well whenever Alpha gets released. probably does need a few tweaks here and there.
  • FlayraFlayra Game Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment San Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1775437:date=Jun 19 2010, 02:06 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eoy @ Jun 19 2010, 02:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also about the non-randomness of hivespawns / relocates, it will only make every game be more similar to a point where "Every game is different" can't really be applied as before. I guess we'll see how it turns out, but it seems to me like the developers have a hard time realizing what made NS1 so popular in the first place. Making the game more accessable isn't necessarily only a good thing if the price you pay is too high, as I'm afraid it is this time. I realize you're going with something similar to a "easy to get into, hard to master" philosophy but by doing that you're taking away several elements that made people love your game in the first place:

    1. Randomness of games
    2. Epic Games (now made into shorter games)
    3. Bunnyhopping being part of being a succesful alien (now gone?)
    4. Two completely different teams (now homogenized)
    5. Huge maps (now small maps for fast games)

    I mean really? Look at this list and ask yourself if you really think players want:

    1. Non-random games
    2. Short games without epic feel
    3. Conventional movement
    4. Two more similar teams
    5. Small maps<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Not a lot of time to properly respond but:

    1. We can put in random spawns later (the game supports it) but for now we're focusing on doing the simplest thing so we can ship v1.0.
    2. We're not shortening the games from NS1.
    3. We have different skill-based movement modes that aren't BH.
    4. What makes you think the teams are similar in any way?
    5. NS1 maps were extremely difficult to learn and so yes, we've focused on making them less rambling and more coherent. This first map is a bit smaller then your average NS1 map, but I'm sure we'll have some nice big maps too.

    I believe that by having fixed locations for command stations and hives (which seemed to work well in NS1 for the aliens), that the game becomes more about territory control. This way it means not only do you need the resources to tech up, but that your tech requires more space and is harder to defend. This leads to multiple theaters of combat with different areas having different strategic value instead of the marines having all the structures in one room back at their base. I think it will work especially well with the power grid system, although that's currently not in the game due resource constraints.

    If any of these things don't work out as well as we expect we'll be able to change them as we go forward as well.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1775751:date=Jun 21 2010, 06:40 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 21 2010, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. What makes you think the teams are similar in any way?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Generally the answer is because the aliens now have a commander and the marines can choose to spend their own resource pool how they want. Some people overlook that both of these things are huge improvements over NS1 just so they can add another bullet point to a list of why NS2 is going to suck.
  • PierreOfTheFrenchPierreOfTheFrench Join Date: 2010-01-08 Member: 69976Members
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If any of these things don't work out as well as we expect we'll be able to change them as we go forward as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well said, I really like the approach being taken. Thanks for the explanation too, I feel as though you were rused into a mini-update! :)

    But I think people need to be less harsh on their judgments, yes there could be improvements but as it was said, there will be much more fine tuning. I think constructive criticism is great but I can see why they may be shying away from big media updates and posts because of the usual responses which sometimes seem like some people are just saying "Psh, I needs to be better. I'm not pleased." If there was like a place-holder textured map (like the aim_textured CS:S maps) that was playable with place holder weapon models I'd deuce with joy. Just my thoughts on the subject.
  • yourbonesakinyourbonesakin Join Date: 2005-08-06 Member: 57682Members
    The map looks good. With some more polish, it should look great. I definitely look forward to it!

    <!--quoteo(post=1775751:date=Jun 21 2010, 05:40 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 21 2010, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not a lot of time to properly respond but:

    1. We can put in random spawns later (the game supports it) but for now we're focusing on doing the simplest thing so we can ship v1.0.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Awesome. I formally vote for random spawn locations at a later date. Static spawn locations get boring after a while because static strategies develop for them. More strategic complexity (within reason) = more fun

    I agree with starting out with a "simpler" map for the alpha. It's certainly logical.

    With regards to map size, I'd like to see some diversity to ease boredom later on in development (in Beta or launch). Different map sizes lead to different match styles. Big maps with large rush distances lend to longer tech-based games and small maps with small rush distances lend to quicker attack-based games (obviously). Diversity is good.

    As for when the alpha gets released, take time, yo. "More wait = more great". Based on how much I-Forget-Who said was complete (apparently everything but the Heavy Armor which was then finished) and the fact that ns2_Tram is nearly done, the basic game will probably be ready soon. Halloween would be sweet since Metroid 3.5 is coming out on August 31st. Something way sooner than August 31st would be even awesomer; July for example.
  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1775808:date=Jun 22 2010, 12:17 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Jun 22 2010, 12:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With regards to map size, I'd like to see some diversity to ease boredom later on in development (in Beta or launch). Different map sizes lead to different match styles. Big maps with large rush distances lend to longer tech-based games and small maps with small rush distances lend to quicker attack-based games (obviously). Diversity is good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The other maps in development, as well as differing in size, also use tech nodes and resource points in different ways - pairing tech nodes and res points more frequently, for example, or having an overall larger number of tech nodes. Overall I think there will be a fair bit of diversity in how each of the maps plays.
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