<!--quoteo(post=1775364:date=Jun 18 2010, 05:46 PM:name=Garo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Garo @ Jun 18 2010, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775364"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just hope that there's enough hiding spots, ceiling passages, ambushing caves and other sneaky routes for the skulks and lerk to travel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That was my initial thought too - wide long tunnels sound like death-trap for skulks, hopefully there'll be enough hidey-holes to make it a death-trap for the TSA too.
I guess there's enough different from NS1 (e.g. alien commanders centralising the alien role, marines buying things themselves decentralising the marine role) that we can hope the fixed hive/cc thing will work. That said, I've not pre-ordered so can't say too much about trust/hope (even if the main reason is that I still suspect UW hasn't considered VAT in the UK, rather than thinking I'll still prefer NS1)
The tram area seems so big that it favors rines, but skulk leap will turn skulks into assault mode rather than ambush anyways so we'll see how it goes.
<!--quoteo(post=1775390:date=Jun 18 2010, 07:41 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jun 18 2010, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775390"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not impressed. It's a bit boring, a bit bland. I can see it closely resembles the concept art although I'm actually more excited for the current community created maps than this. Sorry if that upsets anyone, it's just not interesting or 'different' enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you completely.
Also about the non-randomness of hivespawns / relocates, it will only make every game be more similar to a point where "Every game is different" can't really be applied as before. I guess we'll see how it turns out, but it seems to me like the developers have a hard time realizing what made NS1 so popular in the first place. Making the game more accessable isn't necessarily only a good thing if the price you pay is too high, as I'm afraid it is this time. I realize you're going with something similar to a "easy to get into, hard to master" philosophy but by doing that you're taking away several elements that made people love your game in the first place:
1. Randomness of games 2. Epic Games (now made into shorter games) 3. Bunnyhopping being part of being a succesful alien (now gone?) 4. Two completely different teams (now homogenized) 5. Huge maps (now small maps for fast games)
I mean really? Look at this list and ask yourself if you really think players want:
1. Non-random games 2. Short games without epic feel 3. Conventional movement 4. Two more similar teams 5. Small maps
<!--quoteo(post=1775343:date=Jun 18 2010, 11:20 PM:name=Supernorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supernorn @ Jun 18 2010, 11:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Apologies to Olmy, but the lighting in these screenshots really isn't up to scratch. It's kind of.. boring. There's no real contrast between light and shadow.
Also there's some seriously heavy .jpeg compression going on here. That doesn't help, naturally.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to agree, however, the level is stil WIP and lighting is the thing that always needs to be finished and tweaked near the end of the level dev cycle. In terms of atmosphere I prefer the last screenshot. Not to dark , not to bright and colored lights that add a nice ambiance.
Keep it up! ;)
edit: I have to agree with eoy to. It's understandable that in terms of balance , access etc you want to even out the teams. But something that was unique about NS1 (and something that kept it interesting everytime) was the fact that the hive location was random. Not sure why you guys decided to move away from random start locations. Seems to me like an element that could keep the levels more interesting over longer periods of time.(different tactics required and so forth with different starting positions, scouting for base , ...)
<!--quoteo(post=1775418:date=Jun 19 2010, 05:21 AM:name=lego)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lego @ Jun 19 2010, 05:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775418"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As an ex pro NS1 commander I am against the idea of "specified" chair locations. Part of the fun of the original game was creating insane strategies that just somehow worked. Relocation was a very viable strategy and it had no "specified" locations where you could build. Sometimes you could relocate secretly and be in the heart of the alien base. Fast spawns right near the enemy would create exhilarating games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah this bit sort of surprised me as well...I think it would be a big negative to limit marines where they can build their bases. That sort of freedom was a real liberating point of NS1
<!--quoteo(post=1775420:date=Jun 19 2010, 02:17 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Jun 19 2010, 02:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having only one possible/attractive location for the first expansion isn't helping either, imho. But yeah, we'll see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This!
I can already see whole marine team running near alien hive after 15sec of game start. And most certainly, aliens will always get their next hive in machinery. Always.
<!--quoteo(post=1775457:date=Jun 19 2010, 06:24 AM:name=Onozki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Onozki @ Jun 19 2010, 06:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775457"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can already see whole marine team running near alien hive after 15sec of game start. And most certainly, aliens will always get their next hive in machinery. Always.
Boring, and bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to agree, this sounds quite scary. Alien hive should be so deep in the map so that without good luck all marines would be killed way before nobody can reach the hive. Also I believe that maps should have multiple equally viable strategies (I know, it's hard to get that in practice), but currently it really seems that aliens will always first expand to machinery hive :(
<!--quoteo(post=1775458:date=Jun 19 2010, 12:33 PM:name=Garo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Garo @ Jun 19 2010, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to agree, this sounds quite scary. Alien hive should be so deep in the map so that without good luck all marines would be killed way before nobody can reach the hive. Also I believe that maps should have multiple equally viable strategies (I know, it's hard to get that in practice), but currently it really seems that aliens will always first expand to machinery hive :(
- Garo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hope the variation comes from the expansion timing, ways of holding it and so on. The repetetive expansion pattern is a bit of a shame, but I think it's not anything particularly alarming unless the rest of the game fails to provide alternatives. With decent gameplay system the mappers might be able to figure out more variable expansion patterns too.
Edit: Hmm, now to think of it: Do the alien side rooms require any permanent map based bias towards the alien team? So, could a creative mapper create a map that would function even if the team starting locations were switched? That way the maps could have RTS variation and probably even multiple spawn locations for both teams. I'm quite confident that lua modding could handle the randomization at the start of the round, but at least in NS1 even the 3 hive locations turned into a balancing nightmare due to the gameplay dynamics. With alien commander aliens at least in theory have a lot better chances of adapting into various situations.
i didn't know both team will now start always to the same location. that sux. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->there is no strategy if the players cant use their imagination<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> both team should have between 3 and 5 or 6 spot to spawn (and in a game max 3 hive/) just for giving us more options.
immediately to the start of a game, in both team the guys who want to be commander should be able to vote "i want to be in command" and then ppl in the same team vote for the commander they want. then the commander should be able to see the entire map (with fog of war of course) and select his spawn point. after like 30 sec the game start...
the reason for the marines to be able to reloc is because in some map the aliens were too powerful. i hope everything will be balanced...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Randomness of games 2. Epic Games (now made into shorter games) 3. Bunnyhopping being part of being a succesful alien (now gone?) 4. Two completely different teams (now homogenized) 5. Huge maps (now small maps for fast games)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. = the main reason to play ns instead of battlefield or call of duty 2. = the main reason to play normal game instead of combat game. its fun surviving after 4 hive destroyed and still win lol heheh 3. i personally HATE A LOT the bunnyhopping. im an anti-scripter and too much ppl were playing non-stop with script. 4. we need to play to be sure but i agree that if we have the same gameplay in both team whats the use... (maybe 3 race for ns3 would be nice) 5. man that sux a lot. i want long map too its more strategic. too little = too much arcade like in combat map.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->WE NEED TO USE OUR BRAIN AND TEAMWORK FOR PLAYING NS<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Is this concept part of the tram map? I remember when looking at this image the amount of nostalgia and a sense of dark atmosphere that used to grasp me when I first started playing original NS years and years ago.
If this isn't implemented in this map, hopefully one soon!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In that concept-screenshot I can already see the 3D meshes and 2D textures in the current released version of spark tools to create that area, the only thing that would be needed would be a real tram. One of the would-be more impressive areas in-game.
Maybe we just understood something wrong here... Maybe CC's can still be build anywhere you want but to cap those tech points you would need to build a CC near it? A clarification on that one would be nice.
But even then... people would still just reloc to tech points IF they reloc at all... Because looking at that map it seems like it's rather small-ish and has a very simple layout, maybe a bit too small and a bit too symethrical for my personal taste.
Still bummed about fixed starting locations for aliens... Just looking at this map i can allready pretty much figure out how the round is gonna play out with only 1 big choise to make: Go for the third tech point or go for double res that's about it with "big tactical choises" double or tech...
That's about it... that's the only real big choise a team has to make because the rest is basicly laid out for them with the expansions beeing right next to the starting locations and fixed starting locations.
Generaly i have to agree that it's an nice idea to make the game more friendly to new players, but if you sacrifice too many of the things that made the game appeal to the original fanbase than you won't have people left that recommened the game to any new players.
<!--quoteo(post=1775407:date=Jun 19 2010, 02:10 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Jun 19 2010, 02:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looks good but looks small like marines could do a 10 second walk to the alien starting hive to shotgun rape it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even sprinting a marine can't get from MS to AS in 10 seconds. I believe the goal was around no less then 20 - 30 seconds, which was what most NS1 maps were, but at the moment I don;t think it takes that, long. There are some variables, such as sprinting, and nailing down walking/sprinting speeds in the game, so we may need to make some adjustments to the map, still. <!--quoteo(post=1775413:date=Jun 19 2010, 03:22 AM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Jun 19 2010, 03:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this concept part of the tram map?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That concept, while not specifically in any map in that form, would belong in one of the other maps that are in development. The Refining part of the facility, which has the lava theme look. <!--quoteo(post=1775422:date=Jun 19 2010, 07:04 AM:name=SwampRat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SwampRat @ Jun 19 2010, 07:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That was my initial thought too - wide long tunnels sound like death-trap for skulks, hopefully there'll be enough hidey-holes to make it a death-trap for the TSA too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not apparent from that image, but in many parts of the tunnel there is an area beneath the tracks that skulks can run around in, so that they don't always have to run straight down the tunnel out in the open. And plenty of secondary hallways and vent access off of the tunnels.
In regards to those who feel this map is boring and not different enough, keep in mind that the majority of the textures, props, and much of the concept art were all initially created for THIS map. In that time we've released the editor with all of that stuff, and forum mappers have created a lot of maps with this look and these assets, so now it may not feel as fresh and new and different.
Go over the lighting some and it should look fine, everything looks flat with bad lighting and everything looks good with good lighting.
A bit more colour in the lights will give it a colour theme distinct from the props themselves, while more contrast will bring out the specularity and help make it stand out a bit more. Basically wherever there is a neutral wash of light, darken it a bit, and then add more intense light around the source.
Maybe a bit of stuff in the middle of the tram hall too, like a couple of catwalk bridges over the tracks and some more pillars near the middle, something to add a bit of central interest.
Other than that I don't see much that I'd change.
Oh wait no I'd also try and work some light into the track, the track geometry is nice and detailed and would really look good if you put some lights underneath it, especially with volumetrics.
First I'd like to point out to those who fear aliens will be creamed by a rush or some other game play issue... always. Remember that a lot (but not all) the game mechanics have changed. Before you strictly criticize the playability of the map, wait til Alpha so you can fully grasp your opinion.
It seems to me as well that this map may be much bigger than we first conceptualized it to be.
<!--quoteo(post=1775447:date=Jun 19 2010, 11:09 AM:name=JAmazon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAmazon @ Jun 19 2010, 11:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->FFS, no more than a few days ago Corey explicitly wrote that DI is still gonna be in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to agree that the in game shots look really boring and bland in comparison to the immense concept art from Cory... I look at the concept art and think WOW! then look at the in game version and think... :/ really nothing compared to the concept.
I think the problem as someone already noted is the lighting in these shots... I think they're too lit up and it loses all it's grim/dirty/sketchy character. The second thing I think is that with all games, it looks too.... clean, perfect. In my opinion there needs to be a bit of dirt, attention to detail. Everything looks slapped together (as you say it isn't finished yet...)
In the bottom screenshot there are the black, yellow tape things and in the actual game they are just yellow lines... missing the black stripes. It's stuff like this that just makes you think that it is missing the extra attention to detail. I'd probably say bland is the way I'd describe these screenshots (in comparison to the concept art).
I'm a real big fan of concept art and love games that try and keep their artwork as closely as possible to concept. It seems a shame to see a fantastic concept dumbed down, trimmed, reduced and compressed.
Great work though! sorry if I sounded really negative :P I guses this is what happens when you submit something that you're still working on :D
My favourite games for the concept arty look are Street Fighter 4 and Prince of Persia (360)
<!--quoteo(post=1775437:date=Jun 19 2010, 04:06 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eoy @ Jun 19 2010, 04:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775437"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with you completely.
Also about the non-randomness of hivespawns / relocates, it will only make every game be more similar to a point where "Every game is different" can't really be applied as before. I guess we'll see how it turns out, but it seems to me like the developers have a hard time realizing what made NS1 so popular in the first place. Making the game more accessable isn't necessarily only a good thing if the price you pay is too high, as I'm afraid it is this time. I realize you're going with something similar to a "easy to get into, hard to master" philosophy but by doing that you're taking away several elements that made people love your game in the first place:
1. Randomness of games 2. Epic Games (now made into shorter games) 3. Bunnyhopping being part of being a succesful alien (now gone?) 4. Two completely different teams (now homogenized) 5. Huge maps (now small maps for fast games)
I mean really? Look at this list and ask yourself if you really think players want:
1. Non-random games 2. Short games without epic feel 3. Conventional movement 4. Two more similar teams 5. Small maps<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm on the same statement. We need random starting points. I say even for marines. About 5 starting points for aliens and marines. They would "share" these spawn points. Limit hives and CC to maximum 3. Hives should be able to build fixed to the five starting point. Marines should be able to build anywhere. A hive or a CC should not lock out the other factions building ability to the same room. Limit the structures (like OC or turret etc.) to prevent spamming, with some powergrid/cpu thing, and find something "similar" limitation for aliens.
NS was good because the huge maps. Marines and aliens had to SCOUT for the enemy. You never know where they building up a Secret Come Back From Nothing Revenge Base if you dont scout. In this small map not much scouting needed, and not much hope for hiding a base.
I don't think random starting points added a whole lot. Sure it gave a bit of a guessing game, but you figured out where the start hive was extremely fast just based on where you encountered skulks.
The true game variety is in builds, where you choose to expand to, choices made when building defenses, when to push, what to tech.
The random Hive starts meant it was extremely tough to balance a map. If you start in the middle hive, you are almost always better off than if you started on a side hive.
The tech point idea helps push the concept of forcing marines to build expanding bases, much like how Aliens had to secure Hives to progress in NS1. Just because they have their natural expos doesn't mean you can't gamble and try to take the middle expo first.
Assuming a PG is still in for Marines, you still have to cover all the halls looking for Marines, know where they are moving, and watch for backline Phase Gates. You still have to scout to know how many res nodes they've taken, where, and where their forces are moving. And the scale still feels very sprawling based on the commentary from Italianmagic. Sure thereare fewer convoluted hallways, but forcing players to run around with the map up to know where they are wasn't exactly a good thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1775529:date=Jun 20 2010, 02:34 AM:name=MarshalTT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MarshalTT @ Jun 20 2010, 02:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Limit hives and CC to maximum 3. Hives should be able to build fixed to the five starting point. Marines should be able to build anywhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Limiting the CC to a maximum of 3 and next saying "should be able to build anywhere" is kinda pointless. With a maximum of 3 CC's relocs still would be a bother/not possible because you would need these 3 CC's to cap the tech points.
I don't think random starting points added a whole lot. Sure it gave a bit of a guessing game, but you figured out where the start hive was extremely fast just based on where you encountered skulks.
The true game variety is in builds, where you choose to expand to, choices made when building defenses, when to push, what to tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You gave the answer allready... having different starting hives is not about "gee is it difficult to find out where they come from", different starting hives totaly changes where the focus of action is located on the map. Builds change depending on hives, where you expand to changes depending on the starting hive, defense build also depends on where the starting hive is, when and where to push also depends on the starting hive, what to tech also depends on the hive (JP or HA?).
The different starting hive guaranteed a slightly different experience because they allways changed the point where to most action on the map happens, they allways changed the "next target" to go to. Same doesn't apply to fixed starting positions...
Just compare playing NS to playing CS... in CS you will build mostly a routine, you will throw grenades in the same hallways at the start of the round, you will allways encounter enemies in the same place at the start of the round, ALLWAYS. NS on the other side doesn't do that, you might run into skulks heading for Pipe if pipe is the mainhive, or you won't if sub is the mainhive, one side of the map will be way more frequented while the other side won't have that much action giving you the chance to flank the enemy without him noticing it.
The new map design works contrary to that... the second expansion is right next to the starting location of the team, that means if you manage to take that you basicly won the round allready because you've got an outpost right next to the enemies mainbase +2 tech points. In the end the new design gives you exactly 2 choises: Go for double res or go for a third tech spot. That's it, that's the only thing that will make rounds unique...
NIce update, map looks cool and made me think about how action would happen in a game, where skulks would attack, hiding spots, vents...
one bit problem i think anyone has said is about PUBLICITY???? where is NATURAL SELECTION 2 NAME ON E3 2010 EXPO? wtf? i dont see Natural Selection 2anywhere... I know you dont have the manpower, but you have some money?! why not use it??? game isnt very developed? and you cant make trailers or gameplay, and not even alpha? this means that in fall 2010 we wont have a finish version of the game...
I never understood why natural selection never got popular like counter strike did, to get a retail game!, imagine the difference in the path of this game now if that happened?
I really don't get what you guys are complaining about. I expect to receive the game that I paid for, when its ready. NS was a great FREE game and UWE deserves the money I paid based solely on that fact. I expect UWE to release a great PLATFORM. They understand how important the mod community is and also understand that even when they come to full official release, the game is not complete by far. Imagine the immense amount of progression that NS went from beta to now. The community will carry NS2 from beta to perfection given enough time. I hope UWE spends as much time as needed to create a great mod platform that the community will eat up, turn it around, and astound us with the content that great NS fans will create. I can't wait. But I will.
Thanks for the map update guys, keep up the great work and don't let disgruntled fans bring you down.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
have you guys worked out what happens if aliens or marine buildings are put into the way of the tram? do they get insta gibbed? does the tram derail, or just get stuck until the marines destroy the obstacle? od they bounce off to the side?
Comments
That was my initial thought too - wide long tunnels sound like death-trap for skulks, hopefully there'll be enough hidey-holes to make it a death-trap for the TSA too.
I guess there's enough different from NS1 (e.g. alien commanders centralising the alien role, marines buying things themselves decentralising the marine role) that we can hope the fixed hive/cc thing will work. That said, I've not pre-ordered so can't say too much about trust/hope (even if the main reason is that I still suspect UW hasn't considered VAT in the UK, rather than thinking I'll still prefer NS1)
Lighting looks a bit washed out in places though, could use a bit more contrast.
I agree with you completely.
Also about the non-randomness of hivespawns / relocates, it will only make every game be more similar to a point where "Every game is different" can't really be applied as before. I guess we'll see how it turns out, but it seems to me like the developers have a hard time realizing what made NS1 so popular in the first place. Making the game more accessable isn't necessarily only a good thing if the price you pay is too high, as I'm afraid it is this time. I realize you're going with something similar to a "easy to get into, hard to master" philosophy but by doing that you're taking away several elements that made people love your game in the first place:
1. Randomness of games
2. Epic Games (now made into shorter games)
3. Bunnyhopping being part of being a succesful alien (now gone?)
4. Two completely different teams (now homogenized)
5. Huge maps (now small maps for fast games)
I mean really? Look at this list and ask yourself if you really think players want:
1. Non-random games
2. Short games without epic feel
3. Conventional movement
4. Two more similar teams
5. Small maps
Also there's some seriously heavy .jpeg compression going on here. That doesn't help, naturally.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to agree, however, the level is stil WIP and lighting is the thing that always needs to be finished and tweaked near the end of the level dev cycle.
In terms of atmosphere I prefer the last screenshot. Not to dark , not to bright and colored lights that add a nice ambiance.
Keep it up! ;)
edit:
I have to agree with eoy to.
It's understandable that in terms of balance , access etc you want to even out the teams. But something that was unique about NS1 (and something that kept it interesting everytime) was the fact that the hive location was random.
Not sure why you guys decided to move away from random start locations. Seems to me like an element that could keep the levels more interesting over longer periods of time.(different tactics required and so forth with different starting positions, scouting for base , ...)
Yeah this bit sort of surprised me as well...I think it would be a big negative to limit marines where they can build their bases. That sort of freedom was a real liberating point of NS1
So uhh... no (dynamic) infestation?
FFS, no more than a few days ago Corey explicitly wrote that DI is still gonna be in the game.
But yeah, we'll see.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This!
I can already see whole marine team running near alien hive after 15sec of game start.
And most certainly, aliens will always get their next hive in machinery. Always.
Boring, and bad.
And most certainly, aliens will always get their next hive in machinery. Always.
Boring, and bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to agree, this sounds quite scary. Alien hive should be so deep in the map so that without good luck all marines would be killed way before nobody can reach the hive. Also I believe that maps should have multiple equally viable strategies (I know, it's hard to get that in practice), but currently it really seems that aliens will always first expand to machinery hive :(
- Garo
- Garo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope the variation comes from the expansion timing, ways of holding it and so on. The repetetive expansion pattern is a bit of a shame, but I think it's not anything particularly alarming unless the rest of the game fails to provide alternatives. With decent gameplay system the mappers might be able to figure out more variable expansion patterns too.
Edit: Hmm, now to think of it: Do the alien side rooms require any permanent map based bias towards the alien team? So, could a creative mapper create a map that would function even if the team starting locations were switched? That way the maps could have RTS variation and probably even multiple spawn locations for both teams. I'm quite confident that lua modding could handle the randomization at the start of the round, but at least in NS1 even the 3 hive locations turned into a balancing nightmare due to the gameplay dynamics. With alien commander aliens at least in theory have a lot better chances of adapting into various situations.
both team should have between 3 and 5 or 6 spot to spawn (and in a game max 3 hive/) just for giving us more options.
immediately to the start of a game, in both team the guys who want to be commander should be able to vote "i want to be in command" and then ppl in the same team vote for the commander they want. then the commander should be able to see the entire map (with fog of war of course) and select his spawn point. after like 30 sec the game start...
the reason for the marines to be able to reloc is because in some map the aliens were too powerful. i hope everything will be balanced...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Randomness of games
2. Epic Games (now made into shorter games)
3. Bunnyhopping being part of being a succesful alien (now gone?)
4. Two completely different teams (now homogenized)
5. Huge maps (now small maps for fast games)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. = the main reason to play ns instead of battlefield or call of duty
2. = the main reason to play normal game instead of combat game. its fun surviving after 4 hive destroyed and still win lol heheh
3. i personally HATE A LOT the bunnyhopping. im an anti-scripter and too much ppl were playing non-stop with script.
4. we need to play to be sure but i agree that if we have the same gameplay in both team whats the use... (maybe 3 race for ns3 would be nice)
5. man that sux a lot. i want long map too its more strategic. too little = too much arcade like in combat map.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->WE NEED TO USE OUR BRAIN AND TEAMWORK FOR PLAYING NS<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Is this concept part of the tram map? I remember when looking at this image the amount of nostalgia and a sense of dark atmosphere that used to grasp me when I first started playing original NS years and years ago.
If this isn't implemented in this map, hopefully one soon!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In that concept-screenshot I can already see the 3D meshes and 2D textures in the current released version of spark tools to create that area, the only thing that would be needed would be a real tram. One of the would-be more impressive areas in-game.
Maybe CC's can still be build anywhere you want but to cap those tech points you would need to build a CC near it? A clarification on that one would be nice.
But even then... people would still just reloc to tech points IF they reloc at all...
Because looking at that map it seems like it's rather small-ish and has a very simple layout, maybe a bit too small and a bit too symethrical for my personal taste.
Still bummed about fixed starting locations for aliens...
Just looking at this map i can allready pretty much figure out how the round is gonna play out with only 1 big choise to make: Go for the third tech point or go for double res that's about it with "big tactical choises" double or tech...
That's about it... that's the only real big choise a team has to make because the rest is basicly laid out for them with the expansions beeing right next to the starting locations and fixed starting locations.
Generaly i have to agree that it's an nice idea to make the game more friendly to new players, but if you sacrifice too many of the things that made the game appeal to the original fanbase than you won't have people left that recommened the game to any new players.
Even sprinting a marine can't get from MS to AS in 10 seconds. I believe the goal was around no less then 20 - 30 seconds, which was what most NS1 maps were, but at the moment I don;t think it takes that, long. There are some variables, such as sprinting, and nailing down walking/sprinting speeds in the game, so we may need to make some adjustments to the map, still.
<!--quoteo(post=1775413:date=Jun 19 2010, 03:22 AM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Jun 19 2010, 03:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is this concept part of the tram map?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That concept, while not specifically in any map in that form, would belong in one of the other maps that are in development. The Refining part of the facility, which has the lava theme look.
<!--quoteo(post=1775422:date=Jun 19 2010, 07:04 AM:name=SwampRat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SwampRat @ Jun 19 2010, 07:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That was my initial thought too - wide long tunnels sound like death-trap for skulks, hopefully there'll be enough hidey-holes to make it a death-trap for the TSA too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not apparent from that image, but in many parts of the tunnel there is an area beneath the tracks that skulks can run around in, so that they don't always have to run straight down the tunnel out in the open. And plenty of secondary hallways and vent access off of the tunnels.
In regards to those who feel this map is boring and not different enough, keep in mind that the majority of the textures, props, and much of the concept art were all initially created for THIS map. In that time we've released the editor with all of that stuff, and forum mappers have created a lot of maps with this look and these assets, so now it may not feel as fresh and new and different.
--Cory
A bit more colour in the lights will give it a colour theme distinct from the props themselves, while more contrast will bring out the specularity and help make it stand out a bit more. Basically wherever there is a neutral wash of light, darken it a bit, and then add more intense light around the source.
Maybe a bit of stuff in the middle of the tram hall too, like a couple of catwalk bridges over the tracks and some more pillars near the middle, something to add a bit of central interest.
Other than that I don't see much that I'd change.
Oh wait no I'd also try and work some light into the track, the track geometry is nice and detailed and would really look good if you put some lights underneath it, especially with volumetrics.
It seems to me as well that this map may be much bigger than we first conceptualized it to be.
<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/cache/thumbnails/NS2_Tram_Greybox_phase_800x655.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
notice the size of the spawn units compared to the overall map.
In end, Alpha is where we can form more rounded opinions about the direction and game play of NS2.
~---::End:Transmission::---~
Does the tram actually move? Can we "ride" it from A - B (with stops on the way)?
Ok, could you give me the source please ?
I look at the concept art and think WOW! then look at the in game version and think... :/ really nothing compared to the concept.
I think the problem as someone already noted is the lighting in these shots... I think they're too lit up and it loses all it's grim/dirty/sketchy character. The second thing I think is that with all games, it looks too.... clean, perfect. In my opinion there needs to be a bit of dirt, attention to detail. Everything looks slapped together (as you say it isn't finished yet...)
In the bottom screenshot there are the black, yellow tape things and in the actual game they are just yellow lines... missing the black stripes. It's stuff like this that just makes you think that it is missing the extra attention to detail. I'd probably say bland is the way I'd describe these screenshots (in comparison to the concept art).
I'm a real big fan of concept art and love games that try and keep their artwork as closely as possible to concept. It seems a shame to see a fantastic concept dumbed down, trimmed, reduced and compressed.
Great work though! sorry if I sounded really negative :P I guses this is what happens when you submit something that you're still working on :D
My favourite games for the concept arty look are Street Fighter 4 and Prince of Persia (360)
Also about the non-randomness of hivespawns / relocates, it will only make every game be more similar to a point where "Every game is different" can't really be applied as before. I guess we'll see how it turns out, but it seems to me like the developers have a hard time realizing what made NS1 so popular in the first place. Making the game more accessable isn't necessarily only a good thing if the price you pay is too high, as I'm afraid it is this time. I realize you're going with something similar to a "easy to get into, hard to master" philosophy but by doing that you're taking away several elements that made people love your game in the first place:
1. Randomness of games
2. Epic Games (now made into shorter games)
3. Bunnyhopping being part of being a succesful alien (now gone?)
4. Two completely different teams (now homogenized)
5. Huge maps (now small maps for fast games)
I mean really? Look at this list and ask yourself if you really think players want:
1. Non-random games
2. Short games without epic feel
3. Conventional movement
4. Two more similar teams
5. Small maps<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm on the same statement.
We need random starting points. I say even for marines. About 5 starting points for aliens and marines. They would "share" these spawn points. Limit hives and CC to maximum 3. Hives should be able to build fixed to the five starting point. Marines should be able to build anywhere. A hive or a CC should not lock out the other factions building ability to the same room. Limit the structures (like OC or turret etc.) to prevent spamming, with some powergrid/cpu thing, and find something "similar" limitation for aliens.
NS was good because the huge maps. Marines and aliens had to SCOUT for the enemy. You never know where they building up a Secret Come Back From Nothing Revenge Base if you dont scout. In this small map not much scouting needed, and not much hope for hiding a base.
I don't think random starting points added a whole lot. Sure it gave a bit of a guessing game, but you figured out where the start hive was extremely fast just based on where you encountered skulks.
The true game variety is in builds, where you choose to expand to, choices made when building defenses, when to push, what to tech.
The random Hive starts meant it was extremely tough to balance a map. If you start in the middle hive, you are almost always better off than if you started on a side hive.
The tech point idea helps push the concept of forcing marines to build expanding bases, much like how Aliens had to secure Hives to progress in NS1. Just because they have their natural expos doesn't mean you can't gamble and try to take the middle expo first.
Assuming a PG is still in for Marines, you still have to cover all the halls looking for Marines, know where they are moving, and watch for backline Phase Gates. You still have to scout to know how many res nodes they've taken, where, and where their forces are moving. And the scale still feels very sprawling based on the commentary from Italianmagic. Sure thereare fewer convoluted hallways, but forcing players to run around with the map up to know where they are wasn't exactly a good thing.
Limiting the CC to a maximum of 3 and next saying "should be able to build anywhere" is kinda pointless. With a maximum of 3 CC's relocs still would be a bother/not possible because you would need these 3 CC's to cap the tech points.
<!--quoteo(post=1775535:date=Jun 20 2010, 03:03 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jun 20 2010, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1775535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really?
I don't think random starting points added a whole lot. Sure it gave a bit of a guessing game, but you figured out where the start hive was extremely fast just based on where you encountered skulks.
The true game variety is in builds, where you choose to expand to, choices made when building defenses, when to push, what to tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You gave the answer allready... having different starting hives is not about "gee is it difficult to find out where they come from", different starting hives totaly changes where the focus of action is located on the map. Builds change depending on hives, where you expand to changes depending on the starting hive, defense build also depends on where the starting hive is, when and where to push also depends on the starting hive, what to tech also depends on the hive (JP or HA?).
The different starting hive guaranteed a slightly different experience because they allways changed the point where to most action on the map happens, they allways changed the "next target" to go to. Same doesn't apply to fixed starting positions...
Just compare playing NS to playing CS... in CS you will build mostly a routine, you will throw grenades in the same hallways at the start of the round, you will allways encounter enemies in the same place at the start of the round, ALLWAYS. NS on the other side doesn't do that, you might run into skulks heading for Pipe if pipe is the mainhive, or you won't if sub is the mainhive, one side of the map will be way more frequented while the other side won't have that much action giving you the chance to flank the enemy without him noticing it.
The new map design works contrary to that... the second expansion is right next to the starting location of the team, that means if you manage to take that you basicly won the round allready because you've got an outpost right next to the enemies mainbase +2 tech points. In the end the new design gives you exactly 2 choises: Go for double res or go for a third tech spot. That's it, that's the only thing that will make rounds unique...
NIce update, map looks cool and made me think about how action would happen in a game, where skulks would attack, hiding spots, vents...
one bit problem i think anyone has said is about PUBLICITY???? where is NATURAL SELECTION 2 NAME ON E3 2010 EXPO? wtf? i dont see Natural Selection 2anywhere... I know you dont have the manpower, but you have some money?! why not use it??? game isnt very developed? and you cant make trailers or gameplay, and not even alpha? this means that in fall 2010 we wont have a finish version of the game...
I never understood why natural selection never got popular like counter strike did, to get a retail game!, imagine the difference in the path of this game now if that happened?
Thanks for the map update guys, keep up the great work and don't let disgruntled fans bring you down.