I highly recommend you check out the HoNCast crew and how they're doing commentary for Heroes of Newerth. Granted, they have a whole spectator mode UI setup to make their life easier. No idea how the NS2 spec mode will be like.
And then there's the whole live versus replay commentary. They're both good things to cover.
Basically, I recommend someone (perhaps you) start getting a site together where we can get a team of good, consistent commentators to cover epic stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And, more importantly because, imo, they're a lot better; <a href="http://www.gamereplays.org/heroesofnewerth/" target="_blank">http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index...?showforum=3311</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1769348:date=May 1 2010, 01:19 AM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ May 1 2010, 01:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That was exactly my point. I understand that most of that stuff is pointless for pros (I even said that), but it just doesn't seem all that fun when you strip down the game to just a few elements that are the most effective. At least you get to see many different things in public play, not just the most effective strategy 90% of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> For me it's all about the details on NS. In public games you can execute various strategies, but you can never control the more delicate details. For every roughly sketched public strategy there are probably a dozen little things to tinker with and combine in organised play.
For example my comming plans include armslabs built before IP to match a specific timing on the armor 1, specific mine placements on base defence, marine early game spreads designed to fend off baserushes, specific ways to destroy alien nodes on early game depending on whether they have a gorge or not and so on.
Having the possibility of discussing, experimenting and controlling the details like that both as an individual player and as a member of a team is partitially what makes organised NS so interesting for me. I dislike some of the hoops you simply have to go through every round of NS, but I think the overall amount of variation and dynamic situations is still more than satisfying, especially for a game that has been played for so many years already. The inactivity has been cutting some of the variation lately, but it doesn't mean the options wouldn't be there if someone wants to explore them more.
As for the mistakes: Yeah, those things happen to some extend. In 6 vs 6 environment every player has to be effective, you don't want to play safe all the way in most cases. Combine that with the recent inactivity and enemy team still capable of abusing mistakes to full extend and the balance between being effective and avoiding mistakes becomes a tricky one.
- Be shorter, once you like talked about the same thing for 30 seconds. - Sometimes missed like 2 fades getting rolled etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1769348:date=May 1 2010, 03:19 AM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ May 1 2010, 03:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That was exactly my point. I understand that most of that stuff is pointless for pros (I even said that), but it just doesn't seem all that fun when you strip down the game to just a few elements that are the most effective. At least you get to see many different things in public play, not just the most effective strategy 90% of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is because you have little experience in competitive games, feel free to go ensl.org and join pick-up games if you're interested. I can tell you they are 10 times better than any public games. I can understand the lack OC's and whatever may look boring but its like watching some sports like snooker. If you have personally played the game, you appreciate what's happening (like starting positions, marine positioning, micro-management, resource usage, tactical decisions, movement etc). For me the veil marines was a pretty exciting round and I'm pretty sure it was fun to watch aswell. 30min rounds are rather rare in officials.
Ultimately this is a a "problem" in NS1 gameplay because there're not many effective options in the tech tree (I'm not blaming anyone, the game's free). Its not like we can risk electrified RT's in semi-finals or something like that. But even though there were not many surprising tactics in our games (unless you consider my fast-mt against RAMBOS in orbital), shotgun rushes, relocs, hidden pgs etc. are not non-existent in competitive games. While I'd appreciate more upgrades and stuff, NS is still very versatile and exciting if you know what to look at the metagame.
These casts will be uploaded to ENSL movie database as soon as I find a program that can merge several MP4's together.
This was probably one of the last few high-skilled official competitive NS1 game ever. Even though the level is not what it was back then, its still pretty good (3 of our players are former TeamEU players)
<!--quoteo(post=1769348:date=May 1 2010, 01:19 AM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ May 1 2010, 01:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That was exactly my point. I understand that most of that stuff is pointless for pros (I even said that), but it just doesn't seem all that fun when you strip down the game to just a few elements that are the most effective. At least you get to see many different things in public play, not just the most effective strategy 90% of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You definitely need to appreciate the metagame to see how complex and skillful competitive matches can get.
It's in a similar vane to Counter-Strike: to Joe Public it looks like 10 players buying AKs/M4s and hunting each other down, with 10 seconds of action in a 2 minute round.
Tactics at highest level of NS are all but simple. It's maybe true that tactics and teamwork aren't what they were during 2.01-3.1 but competitive NS is still very complex indeed. Saying that the higher level you go the less variation you see tactical-wise is really outrageous. Maybe it seems so for those who aren't that level, because more competitive the game get more the "little things" matter. In what order you build things or what roles aliens use is only one small part of tactics in NS. Positioning and timing are two most essential concepts tactical-wise.
Even low-mid level competitive player are totally clueless compared to legendary tactical masterminds. People always seems to highlight the great difference between pub players and competitive players, but in truth, high level competitive player plays totally different game than low level competitive player. For example, if we look little closer “the most basic skill†in NS, that would be aiming. Most of you would probably say that aiming is all about reflex and the hand-eye coordination, but I think I'm justified to say that it’s as much or even more about positioning, movement and timing.
Basically what I’m saying is that, even if we are playing the same game, the top player sees so much more with same look of map or whatever than freshmeat.
<!--quoteo(post=1769447:date=May 1 2010, 03:52 PM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ May 1 2010, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Positioning and timing are two most essential concepts tactical-wise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought blind did a good job talking about that kind of stuff in most of the replays I watched.
I think the biggest thing that non-competitive players may miss is the importance of the metagame, since it's kind of hard to understand without hearing what a team is saying. In one of the matches blind commentated the aliens lost all their nodes before 2 minutes in-game. Instead of giving up, they rushed marine base and made the commander panic and drop res on a pointless observatory. Even though they were losing the game, getting killed by marines and losing territory, they won the metagame and kept themselves in play. That sort of stuff is what makes the difference between good teams and great teams, but it's not possible to do on pubs because you have to have a lot of faith in your teammates.
<!--quoteo(post=1769456:date=May 2 2010, 04:55 AM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ May 2 2010, 04:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the biggest thing that non-competitive players may miss is the importance of the metagame, since it's kind of hard to understand without hearing what a team is saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Correction, its hard to understand without the experience. Hearing the team is one thing but an experienced player can see so much more a in game that non-experienced one, just like Tane said.
<!--quoteo(post=1769456:date=May 2 2010, 04:55 AM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ May 2 2010, 04:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of giving up, they rushed marine base and made the commander panic and drop res on a pointless observatory. Even though they were losing the game, getting killed by marines and losing territory, they won the metagame and kept themselves in play. That sort of stuff is what makes the difference between good teams and great teams, but it's not possible to do on pubs because you have to have a lot of faith in your teammates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It wasn't a panic drop. Dropping a field obs is a normal counter for baserush. One game aliens baserushed, I dropped a fields obs, told pressure team to kill all their nodes (including main hive node), beaconed while CC was red, and later won the game. In the game you're talking about I wasn't sure if the guy spawning in the base was going to make it so I didn't want to beacon because that'd be waste of res. But imo. I should have either destroyed their main hive node (with all marines, instead of just 2) or capped dbl while they were rushing to get back in the game. And that did make the difference in that round but doesn't make the difference between the teams (we did draw anyway). Difference is mostly made by aggregated skill level (+ teamwork).
I wonder if anyone happens know a program that can merge MP4's together?
<!--quoteo(post=1769478:date=May 2 2010, 09:57 AM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ May 2 2010, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769478"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wonder if anyone happens know a program that can merge MP4's together?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
Back from duties. I casted and compiled the rest of the match between NewTeam and StrayDogs, but it's 15 videos in total and with my bad connection it takes about 2-3 days to upload (24 KB/s). Also, if someone is interested, the division 1 finals are set up for May, 9th at 8pm GMT+1 (see ensl.org for HLTV details). Division 2 (med-skill) I think 1 day ahead, but not sure.
Thanks for the nice feedback. That's a lot I need to implement, but I will try for my next commentaries.
@marks Yeah, psyko stated it already. There are lots of good shoutcasts available on 9L, but not fun just listening to them without video (and playing replay while hearing to it is somewhat confusing to me - I don't know where the commentator is looking at the moment).
@Viper_two_nine_A Good advice. I turned down the game volume while casting round 8 between NewTeam v StrayDogs, but then NS reset its game volume without asking me and I forgot to tune it down again. I will try to remember next time.
@Bacillus On my watch-list.
@Warmonger Not sure if I should talk less, I rather think it's important to keep talking. What do others think about this? Minimap/scoreboard I'm trying to minimize its use, but I still need it alot.
@Drummer Thanks, man. If you have experience in recording stereo-mix sounds via fraps and a second shoutcaster via some communication prog (ts,skype,etc) at the same time, please contact me. Still having troubles.
@Razagal Yes, I'm trying to find a balanced mix explaining basics and deeper strats to fit both pros and beginners in NS listening. But one of my declared goal is to make NS attractive to new players, so I guess I need to keep talking about basics.
@jiriki Talking shorter comes with better english =) And yes, missing rolled lifeforms seems unavoidable to me when there's lots of actions going on sometimes. But I'm trying my best to keep track on them.
one of the most life saving programs ive found for coordinating lots of audio streams into one and balancing the levels is Virtual Audio Cable found here: <a href="http://software.muzychenko.net/eng/vac.html" target="_blank">http://software.muzychenko.net/eng/vac.html</a> its not free ($30), but if you plan on doing elaborate sound mixes like this situation, its worth way more than that, at least i think. basically, it creates virtual sound cards and allows you to connect outputs and inputs from different programs to the ends of the "cables". personally, i used ventrilo for voice chat with the other commentators, cause you can also have the players that are in the matches join the ventrilo server after the match for interviews, which ive found are very popular with the listeners. you can use any voice chat software you like (TS, skype, etc), you just need one that lets you change the sound card settings so it can work with the "cables"
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
Um, I really don't know. Seems like when I use it after compiling videos and stuff my audio starts screwing up until reboot. Not quite sure, but that wasn't the first time it dropped. I will test it next time before recording =)
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
Quite a little downtime here. Ya know, summer is knocking on the door, SC2 beta was closing (had to play until I managed to outmacro diamond players :P ) ....and then you notice there's also work to do.
Long story short, I'm back at making videos. Maybe not at fast pace, since I will mostly wait for NS2 for this as all of you guys, but still not going to stop. Commentaries keep rolling in.
I decided to start a coverage of ENSL season 13, and I started with U GO? vs. Saunamen:
Comments
I highly recommend you check out the HoNCast crew and how they're doing commentary for Heroes of Newerth. Granted, they have a whole spectator mode UI setup to make their life easier. No idea how the NS2 spec mode will be like.
And then there's the whole live versus replay commentary. They're both good things to cover.
Basically, I recommend someone (perhaps you) start getting a site together where we can get a team of good, consistent commentators to cover epic stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.honcast.com" target="_blank">http://www.honcast.com</a>
And, more importantly because, imo, they're a lot better;
<a href="http://www.gamereplays.org/heroesofnewerth/" target="_blank">http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index...?showforum=3311</a>
For me it's all about the details on NS. In public games you can execute various strategies, but you can never control the more delicate details. For every roughly sketched public strategy there are probably a dozen little things to tinker with and combine in organised play.
For example my comming plans include armslabs built before IP to match a specific timing on the armor 1, specific mine placements on base defence, marine early game spreads designed to fend off baserushes, specific ways to destroy alien nodes on early game depending on whether they have a gorge or not and so on.
Having the possibility of discussing, experimenting and controlling the details like that both as an individual player and as a member of a team is partitially what makes organised NS so interesting for me. I dislike some of the hoops you simply have to go through every round of NS, but I think the overall amount of variation and dynamic situations is still more than satisfying, especially for a game that has been played for so many years already. The inactivity has been cutting some of the variation lately, but it doesn't mean the options wouldn't be there if someone wants to explore them more.
As for the mistakes: Yeah, those things happen to some extend. In 6 vs 6 environment every player has to be effective, you don't want to play safe all the way in most cases. Combine that with the recent inactivity and enemy team still capable of abusing mistakes to full extend and the balance between being effective and avoiding mistakes becomes a tricky one.
- Be shorter, once you like talked about the same thing for 30 seconds.
- Sometimes missed like 2 fades getting rolled etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1769348:date=May 1 2010, 03:19 AM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ May 1 2010, 03:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That was exactly my point. I understand that most of that stuff is pointless for pros (I even said that), but it just doesn't seem all that fun when you strip down the game to just a few elements that are the most effective. At least you get to see many different things in public play, not just the most effective strategy 90% of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is because you have little experience in competitive games, feel free to go ensl.org and join pick-up games if you're interested. I can tell you they are 10 times better than any public games. I can understand the lack OC's and whatever may look boring but its like watching some sports like snooker. If you have personally played the game, you appreciate what's happening (like starting positions, marine positioning, micro-management, resource usage, tactical decisions, movement etc). For me the veil marines was a pretty exciting round and I'm pretty sure it was fun to watch aswell. 30min rounds are rather rare in officials.
Ultimately this is a a "problem" in NS1 gameplay because there're not many effective options in the tech tree (I'm not blaming anyone, the game's free). Its not like we can risk electrified RT's in semi-finals or something like that. But even though there were not many surprising tactics in our games (unless you consider my fast-mt against RAMBOS in orbital), shotgun rushes, relocs, hidden pgs etc. are not non-existent in competitive games. While I'd appreciate more upgrades and stuff, NS is still very versatile and exciting if you know what to look at the metagame.
These casts will be uploaded to ENSL movie database as soon as I find a program that can merge several MP4's together.
This was probably one of the last few high-skilled official competitive NS1 game ever. Even though the level is not what it was back then, its still pretty good (3 of our players are former TeamEU players)
You definitely need to appreciate the metagame to see how complex and skillful competitive matches can get.
It's in a similar vane to Counter-Strike: to Joe Public it looks like 10 players buying AKs/M4s and hunting each other down, with 10 seconds of action in a 2 minute round.
Even low-mid level competitive player are totally clueless compared to legendary tactical masterminds. People always seems to highlight the great difference between pub players and competitive players, but in truth, high level competitive player plays totally different game than low level competitive player. For example, if we look little closer “the most basic skill†in NS, that would be aiming. Most of you would probably say that aiming is all about reflex and the hand-eye coordination, but I think I'm justified to say that it’s as much or even more about positioning, movement and timing.
Basically what I’m saying is that, even if we are playing the same game, the top player sees so much more with same look of map or whatever than freshmeat.
I thought blind did a good job talking about that kind of stuff in most of the replays I watched.
I think the biggest thing that non-competitive players may miss is the importance of the metagame, since it's kind of hard to understand without hearing what a team is saying. In one of the matches blind commentated the aliens lost all their nodes before 2 minutes in-game. Instead of giving up, they rushed marine base and made the commander panic and drop res on a pointless observatory. Even though they were losing the game, getting killed by marines and losing territory, they won the metagame and kept themselves in play. That sort of stuff is what makes the difference between good teams and great teams, but it's not possible to do on pubs because you have to have a lot of faith in your teammates.
Correction, its hard to understand without the experience. Hearing the team is one thing but an experienced player can see so much more a in game that non-experienced one, just like Tane said.
<!--quoteo(post=1769456:date=May 2 2010, 04:55 AM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ May 2 2010, 04:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead of giving up, they rushed marine base and made the commander panic and drop res on a pointless observatory. Even though they were losing the game, getting killed by marines and losing territory, they won the metagame and kept themselves in play. That sort of stuff is what makes the difference between good teams and great teams, but it's not possible to do on pubs because you have to have a lot of faith in your teammates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wasn't a panic drop. Dropping a field obs is a normal counter for baserush. One game aliens baserushed, I dropped a fields obs, told pressure team to kill all their nodes (including main hive node), beaconed while CC was red, and later won the game. In the game you're talking about I wasn't sure if the guy spawning in the base was going to make it so I didn't want to beacon because that'd be waste of res. But imo. I should have either destroyed their main hive node (with all marines, instead of just 2) or capped dbl while they were rushing to get back in the game. And that did make the difference in that round but doesn't make the difference between the teams (we did draw anyway). Difference is mostly made by aggregated skill level (+ teamwork).
I wonder if anyone happens know a program that can merge MP4's together?
<a href="http://www.virtualdub.org/" target="_blank">http://www.virtualdub.org/</a>
Also, if someone is interested, the division 1 finals are set up for May, 9th at 8pm GMT+1 (see ensl.org for HLTV details). Division 2 (med-skill) I think 1 day ahead, but not sure.
Thanks for the nice feedback. That's a lot I need to implement, but I will try for my next commentaries.
@marks
Yeah, psyko stated it already. There are lots of good shoutcasts available on 9L, but not fun just listening to them without video (and playing replay while hearing to it is somewhat confusing to me - I don't know where the commentator is looking at the moment).
@Viper_two_nine_A
Good advice. I turned down the game volume while casting round 8 between NewTeam v StrayDogs, but then NS reset its game volume without asking me and I forgot to tune it down again. I will try to remember next time.
@Bacillus
On my watch-list.
@Warmonger
Not sure if I should talk less, I rather think it's important to keep talking. What do others think about this?
Minimap/scoreboard I'm trying to minimize its use, but I still need it alot.
@Drummer
Thanks, man. If you have experience in recording stereo-mix sounds via fraps and a second shoutcaster via some communication prog (ts,skype,etc) at the same time, please contact me. Still having troubles.
@Razagal
Yes, I'm trying to find a balanced mix explaining basics and deeper strats to fit both pros and beginners in NS listening. But one of my declared goal is to make NS attractive to new players, so I guess I need to keep talking about basics.
@jiriki
Talking shorter comes with better english =)
And yes, missing rolled lifeforms seems unavoidable to me when there's lots of actions going on sometimes. But I'm trying my best to keep track on them.
let me know if you have any trouble setting it up
Round 7 starts with this link:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWuGRj1pelE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWuGRj1pelE</a>
I also added playlists now as requested and modified my opening post accordingly.
I hope you make more cos I'll definitely watch every one. D:
P.s. I'm a big fan of HDStarcraft too as well as all other SC commentaries. What's your sc2 beta ID (and anyone else!)?
I recently finished uploading the Division 1 finals between 2BALLS and RAMBOS. Here's the playlist link:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwREIFc-ipQ&feature=PlayList&p=50F256C66422BBA7&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwREIFc-ipQ...&playnext=1</a>
Direct playlist link:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25PJCJOHxbQ&feature=PlayList&p=D126B5A3687B4291&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25PJCJOHxbQ...&playnext=1</a>
Enjoy and keep playing this awesome game =)
NC16 semis uploaded:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1VxqWHElOU&feature=PlayList&p=1545A3868179FABB&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1VxqWHElOU...&playnext=1</a>
Here are the finals for NC16:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfEzwlsJo48&feature=PlayList&p=EC56FB30B0F1AFAB&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfEzwlsJo48...&playnext=1</a>
Long story short, I'm back at making videos. Maybe not at fast pace, since I will mostly wait for NS2 for this as all of you guys, but still not going to stop. Commentaries keep rolling in.
I decided to start a coverage of ENSL season 13, and I started with U GO? vs. Saunamen:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uQIdu-YRRw&feature=PlayList&p=7FB426D243CB0E27&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uQIdu-YRRw...&playnext=1</a>
Enjoy :)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nH1-kXvHuE&feature=PlayList&p=1D8FFEFE60BB97FB&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nH1-kXvHuE...&playnext=1</a>