Question about alternative distribution
sporty
Join Date: 2003-06-29 Member: 17782Members
Join Date: 2003-06-29 Member: 17782Members
Hello,
the recent email sent out by UWE surprised me with the wording:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(...)youwill need to activate your copy of NS2 on Steam(...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course I assumed a misunderstanding, or a special pre-alpha phase requiring this step, since the pre-order FAQ explicitly stated that NS2 will be made available directly through UWE for those who ordered early. Looking up the relevant passages just to make sure, they've just now been quietly removed. My initial surprise now feels more like actual worry, so I've come here hoping for some official clarification.
Will future iterations of the engine test and following test phases be made available without Steam (the last torrent worked flawlessly :))?
Will pre-orders be able to download the finished game (eventually ;)) directly from UWE, as initially announced?
Anyway, good job reaching another milestone, and best luck with those still lying ahead :)
the recent email sent out by UWE surprised me with the wording:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(...)youwill need to activate your copy of NS2 on Steam(...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course I assumed a misunderstanding, or a special pre-alpha phase requiring this step, since the pre-order FAQ explicitly stated that NS2 will be made available directly through UWE for those who ordered early. Looking up the relevant passages just to make sure, they've just now been quietly removed. My initial surprise now feels more like actual worry, so I've come here hoping for some official clarification.
Will future iterations of the engine test and following test phases be made available without Steam (the last torrent worked flawlessly :))?
Will pre-orders be able to download the finished game (eventually ;)) directly from UWE, as initially announced?
Anyway, good job reaching another milestone, and best luck with those still lying ahead :)
Comments
the recent email sent out by UWE surprised me with the wording:
Of course I assumed a misunderstanding, or a special pre-alpha phase requiring this step, since the pre-order FAQ explicitly stated that NS2 will be made available directly through UWE for those who ordered early. Looking up the relevant passages just to make sure, they've just now been quietly removed. My initial surprise now feels more like actual worry, so I've come here hoping for some official clarification.
Will future iterations of the engine test and following test phases be made available without Steam (the last torrent worked flawlessly :))?
Will pre-orders be able to download the finished game (eventually ;)) directly from UWE, as initially announced?
Anyway, good job reaching another milestone, and best luck with those still lying ahead :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The updates will go through steam. So even if you can download the game directly from UWE you still need steam to get the updates. Also whats wrong with getting it through steam? You need to have steam to play the game anyway.
I believe that's exactly the problem. Some people (for some very good reasons that I won't punch out here) dislike Steam and want their games to not have to use Steam.
Granted, I know many people who hate Steam for lame nonsensical reasons, but there are a few valid reasons. For example, what if Steam goes under, can we still play the games? For Civ5 a huge problem is the auto patching forcing you to patch when it's inconvenient in the middle of your epic 2 week game or 5 month MP-tournament (and breaking your save in the process). Some people dislike being forced to deal with 2 groups and potential bugs from both sides.
For me, it doesn't keep me up much at night, but some people legitimately are scared.
Just over 6 1/2 years actually. The public, non-beta launch was 9/12/2003. And it was two full years before a non-Valve game was available on it - Rag Doll Kung-Fu: 10/12/2005. So really as a distributor of other companies' content they're closer to 5 years of experience than 10.
Now I love Steam and something like 90% of my PC game purchaes in the last 3 years have been through it. However all of Spellman's points are valid. And there's a lot of stuff he didn't even mention, like:
- Offline support is spotty at best for many games
- The whole thing is a DRM system at heart, yet many games still require SecureROM
- In addition to Steam many games also want (and some flat-out require) Games for Windows Live to also be running. So now I need to have my game, Steam, and GWFL all going, and when something goes wrong, all three are basically just as likely to have caused the problem.
Blah blah blah. I'm a huge Steam fan, and I have more money sunk into games for it than I'd like to admit. But it has issues and I can completely understand why some people wouldn't want to have to bother with it just to play a game.
As for game breaking - that's up to the original company. It's not the fault of steam. And you can tell steam to NOT update a game.
Really, the biggest complainers against steam seem to fit into a few groups. First, there's the pirates who dislike steam because it makes it harder to play stolen games. Then there's the ppl who don't like the idea of being forced to use something so corporate.....even though buying any AAA title is just as corporate. The international currency thing is a legit beef. Valve should really do something about that. And to those who worry that if steam goes down that all your games are screwed.....that's just a foolish worry. Even if it did go away, Valve would probably make some update that lets you run your ###### without steam as they have a long history of good customer service.
In the end, Steam's benefits outweigh its losses. It's the least intrusive form of DRM I've seen and provides huge benefits such as easy patching, community management, and a store for those who aren't getting boned by it. It's a good piece of software and I don't see why ppl are scared of it? Do they think valve's gonna hack their computer,, steal their info and go on a 30 hour party binge with your credit card? Get the tinfoil hats....
Not true. Out of the gate, they had no promises about a mac version, but voiced that they wish to eventually support that platform. I never heard of any linux support, but if you have a quote from somewhere, please share it. Also, if you still have not heard, steam is coming to the mac with a beta starting sometime this month so there is no reason that UW could not eventually support macs.
<a href="http://www.valvesoftware.com/news/?id=3568" target="_blank">http://www.valvesoftware.com/news/?id=3568</a>
Didn't UW say they were doing a version that supported Steam friends but didn't require Steam? I thought they said it somewhere.
Also, some people might find my reasons silly but I dislike Steam because it calls my games 'subscriptions', meaning few/no consumer rights, and I don't like Valve because of small things over the years such as when they broke their publisher's contract (Sierra?), and how Steam sends info back to Valve about you, and maybe finally forced patching (sometimes I like using old patches).
seeing as steam is releasing a mac version of source and steamworks when they release portal 2, and a linux version is being worked on, steam isn't the reason if it doesn't see support for those platforms
and they never actually promised to support those platforms, they said most of their engine was easy to port and it was likely to be supported some time after release
They did make no such promises about this. Using Steamworks allows them to get the game out there without having to do the gruntwork of setting up a master server, creating a server browser, basically all the functionality required to make an online game. Without it, they would need to make their own Server Browser and tech which would take up considerable amount of actual game development (which is why we're all here - for the game, right?).
I believe they did mention wanting to do this, but currently there just isn't enough time/money to accomplish something like this (especially with the tech they're currently using). They're using DirectX for rendering, but they've stated that the hooks were generic enough to add in OpenGL. Besides that, and the networking, everything else is Cross-Platform I think, so they would probably get to it at some point in the game.
Aside from that, they've stated that a Linux Dedicated Server will be released, and Steam is coming to Mac now anyways, so I don't think it would take very much to get it over to Mac as well now. I don't have time to get actual quotes though...
looks like no official word yet, even though this is a very serious issue. Maybe a different thread title would do the trick, any ideas?
To emphasise the subject again (which isn't "Steam yay/nay"), if this middleware is now mandatory then the conditions for customers have drastically changed since they placed their order. Those (possible) new conditions can be disadvantageous to some (me included). At the least, those who already purchased the game should be informed about this change of terms, and probably given an option to reconsider/reevaluate their purchase.
Virtually all pre-orders come from loyal NS fans, spending money in good faith. I don't think anyone really suspects that UWE would lie to or deceive them with this, still it absolutely has to be made clear whether there's been a change of terms.
xbeanx3000, good catch with the <a href="http://www.naturalselection2.com/buy" target="_blank">pre-order page</a>! It still advertises a direct download option. This restores some of my hope :)
As soon as you play the alpha/beta then I would imagine that all rights to a full refund would be negated.
p.s. if you hate steam that much then you really need to reconsider pc gaming as within 10 years I bet steam and similar digital distribution methods will be the prime way of getting any games.
p.p.s steam is great
Well forget about that, Steam is listed under "System requirements".
NS2 without Steam would be great, but I don't see that happening. :(
Steam was pretty much <b>always</b> a requirement. It was stated almost at the beginning that NS2 would use Steamworks for the Server Browser, etc. There was some confusion about whether or not this required Steam, but many posts later, it was confirmed that you did in fact need Steam to run NS2 at all. I believe this was confirmed either just before the Pre-Orders opened up, or just after, but new customers have had ample time to read up on it. In short, if you're angry about Steam, then I'm with Bry. Get a refund now (unless you want to treat it as a donation to UWE) because there is absolutely no guarantee that UWE will develop an alternative to Steamworks integration.
Now, I think Unknown Worlds would be at a disadvantage if they did not continue to offer a direct download as well (I mean, the NS2 keys that we already had Pre-Steam release would seem kind of useless now), but I think at this stage in the game, Steam offers them an excellent opportunity to test the game, patch the game, and roll out any changes to us almost immediately. And I bet it would be far cheaper in the long run to do this over Steam right now, then to spend loads of money on bandwidth and server costs hosting the files elsewhere - not to mention troubleshooting costs and what not. Valve handles Steam pretty well IMO, and any downtime due to a massive flood of people downloading the engine test will be reduced.
--Scythe--
the point of this thread is not to enlighten each other about the dangers and benefits of Steam, I simply wanted an official clarification without bothering the developers via email. Eventually this could be the last chance to get a response at all, but I didn't want to jump on them when it's the weekend and they've just got a truckload of new issues to work on ;)
By the way, it's still possible to view the old FAQ section with Google cache, for example. You'll notice that before friday, it never was a question whether a standalone version would be available. Even now, the site mentions a direct download, Max confirmed the option of running the game without Steamworks features in February, and even the announcement in March didn't state that merging pre-orders with Steam would be a requirement.
It comes down to a question of trust. I trust UWE to stay true to their word, but it's not blind faith. Else I wouldn't have asked those questions, even in light of recent events.
For sporty, email and get a refund. It has been known for a while (months at least) that steamworks would be required because of VAC, friends, achievements, server browser, voip + other things.
tell those people, if they right click the game, -> properties - > updates: they can turn off autopatching.
honestly steam has very few issues, and inducing bugs into games usually gets taken care of very quickly. most problems people have is that they dont know the options availalbe in steam for them.
biggest issue i have with steam is that defcon hates it auth wise. other than that it has made me a convert over the past 3 years.
Didn't UW say they were doing a version that supported Steam friends but didn't require Steam? I thought they said it somewhere.
Also, some people might find my reasons silly but I dislike Steam because it calls my games 'subscriptions', meaning few/no consumer rights, and I don't like Valve because of small things over the years such as when they broke their publisher's contract (Sierra?), and how Steam sends info back to Valve about you, and maybe finally forced patching (sometimes I like using old patches).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FYI you can toggle Auto-patcher in Steam. Right click the game, properties, updates and then change it to 'do not automatically update this game."
Steam has issues, what doesn't? But over the past 6 years I've been converted from a cry baby when my won servers stopped working to actually telling people they are stupid for not using it.
Alternative distribution would be nice but steam lets them reach a lot more customers. NOT using steam would be the worst business decision that uwe could make imo.
Valve is like a version of Gordon Brown, he's needed to run the country but 50% of people don't like him.
Valve is like a version of Gordon Brown, he's needed to run the country but 50% of people don't like him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When the Non-Steam Digital Download gets re-issued (which it will at some point, is my understanding) you can always have Steam installed but only start it when you want to play. The fact that NS2 is just using Steamworks means you only need Steam running for it to start (The Non-Steam version, at any rate) an of course, need to be logged in.
IMHO, The Steam Community needs a 100% overhaul, starting with the forums, but as with all Features of any program, you don't have to use them. I've never used the Steam Forums and probably never will.
PS: I've never seen a game referred to as a "subscription" on Steam - and besides the single-player games, why would you not want an up-to-date multiplayer game? Running an older patch likely reduces your available pool for servers to a very small amount, and even then, they might not be full anyways, but I could see where balancing issues might come into play.
I fail to see that analogy or where that statistic is coming from.
lol sorry I should have explained that further. A uk games magazine talked about Steam and they mentioned that statistic, but I can't remember how they found it out. Maybe a poll on the internet or something.
Regarding something else mentioned ealier, I think Steam's terms & conditions call your purchases subscriptions, and they have the right to cancel your subscription without any come back. And even if I'm slightly wrong, I think it's right enough to say it's like paying for an ISP service or playing an MMO game, as in the end you don't own anything. And I like owning games in particular because I'm traditional like that.
oh and about using old patches, I like the ability to ignore official updates if they are considered 'undesirable' for whatever reason (in single-player at least), and I like enjoying retro versions of games.
Except you can't play a game on Steam unless it's patched.
Well, assuming it's an integrated Steamworks gunker and not say A Complete disregard for Gravity, which is actually independent and just kinda fires from Steam and uses Steam to track stuff...
But a quick forum scan indicates that any heavily Steamworks game won't fire unless it's fully patched. One way to check if you can get away with it is if it will run in Offline Mode... except why are you running in Offline Mode? Valve has made it very clear they don't really care about Offline Mode since you should ALWAYS have internet.
just wanted to inform those interested that I did contact Flayra about this issue, who acknowledged that the original plans of having a direct-download version have been canceled recently. There won't be any future version that's not distributed through Steam. Since he also offered a refund because of this, I think I can safely say that they never intended to deceive anyone about this distribution issue. Still can't shake off the regret for cancelling my pre-order from May last year, but the circumstances left me no choice :(
I hope the game will succeed regardless, sorry about not contributing more than a bit of feedback based on the first engine test.