<!--quoteo(post=1771664:date=May 19 2010, 09:20 AM:name=sporty)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sporty @ May 19 2010, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hello, just wanted to inform those interested that I did contact Flayra about this issue, who acknowledged that the original plans of having a direct-download version have been canceled recently. There won't be any future version that's not distributed through Steam. Since he also offered a refund because of this, I think I can safely say that they never intended to deceive anyone about this distribution issue. Still can't shake off the regret for cancelling my pre-order from May last year, but the circumstances left me no choice :(
I hope the game will succeed regardless, sorry about not contributing more than a bit of feedback based on the first engine test.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What precludes you from playing a game on Steam again? Did you stop playing NS1 when it was moved to Steam, too?
<!--quoteo(post=1770776:date=May 11 2010, 11:07 AM:name=xbeanx3000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xbeanx3000 @ May 11 2010, 11:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1770776"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regarding something else mentioned ealier, I think Steam's terms & conditions call your purchases subscriptions, and they have the right to cancel your subscription without any come back. And even if I'm slightly wrong, I think it's right enough to say it's like paying for an ISP service or playing an MMO game, as in the end you don't own anything. And I like owning games in particular because I'm traditional like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Buying a game on CD or off Steam doesn't make you "own" the game. In most cases, you are still buying only a license, a license you have to agree to prior to playing the game. So in the end you still don't own anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1771668:date=May 19 2010, 03:46 PM:name=Corporal_Fortier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corporal_Fortier @ May 19 2010, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Buying a game on CD or off Steam doesn't make you "own" the game. In most cases, you are still buying only a license, a license you have to agree to prior to playing the game. So in the end you still don't own anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi again,
I suppose what I like about buying non DRM games is companies can't walk in to your house and nab them easy, and if they're in the wrong it gives the consumer an illusion of protection/strengh (which I like).
Do you think Steam will be offering this game for pre-order at a much cheaper price than pre-ordering from UnknownWorlds?
Yes Steam is owned by Valve and we all have tainted views of Valve from time to time based on bad experiences. However I don't see what everyone's problem with Steam is "currently". I used Steam in the initial stages when WON shutdown just like most of you else and it was ######. It overloaded all the time (Not enough content servers to handle the peak loads) and basically all-round was abominable with it's authentication issues all the time etc.
It has however matured over the years and now I believe it is a fairly stable platform and most of the initial features that were supposed to work now work (Friends list, Communities etc)
For those worried about costs, Steamworks is free. It says so on the website so I assume it has cost the NS team nothing to integrate and take advantage of Steamworks features. So to those who say "I don't want to give extra money to Valve I would of bought at 75% off" you haven't given any money to Valve.
I am fairly sure as well Valve can't just make a 75% promo it would be UWE telling Valve they want a promotion or working in conjunction with UWE, now in the future I'm sure if UWE decide to use the Steam store which is entirely possible Valve may get a cut of that or a transaction fee. However all Pre-Orders so far were done direct through UWE so they have received the full money.
"There are no licensing fees and there’s no charge for bandwidth, retail copies, or OEM distribution."
I also don't believe their is any DRM involved however I could be wrong on this, I would of thought that would be up to the game developers though. I don't think all games have DRM as I have seen advertisements where DRM has been removed for certain Steam games because it caused issues?
Just look at the features of NS moving to Steam though:
Connecting to an established Gaming Community (Steam houses a lot of games these days and there are millions of players world-wide using it) Exposure (They will gain a larger audience awareness through using Steam with potential advertising) Content Distribution (UWE will not have to setup multiple download servers or make their own distribution system that could potentially land the same pitfalls as Steam initially did or cost them more money in bandwidth fees and development time building a system) Patch Management (As far as I am aware they will be able to make micro patches and people will be able to download straight away via Steam once they are published) Cloud Support? (Sounds like if they wanted to, each player gets 100MB space in Valve's cloud where control settings or other data etc "could" be stored so they are available wherever you play) Free Bandwidth (Saves UWE spending large amounts of money on proper distribution systems like Akamai or even trying to purchase dedicated servers to distribute the game and patches or even the cruder method of trying to get free mirrors which requires time and resources to manage) Friends List (They do not need to try and build their own friends list system like EA did in Bad Company 2 which utterly fails) Time Saving (Now they don't need to spend time on the above features they can focus on building NS2 to its full potential) Micro transactions? (Sounds like they can potentially make extra content or skins etc possibly for a small fee which would help bring in a bit of extra revenue. Not sure how well this would work or if this would be a con depends on what becomes available and whether it starts destroying balance)
Did we remember that all of this is free?
Now I'm not a Valve supporter but if I was developing a game and I had the option of all those features for free I would jump on it. it just seems logical to me and I assume would make life a lot easier for the development team.
Allow me to enumerate the many, and logical reasons, people are wary of Steam
<ul><li>What if Steam is shut down? Where do our games go? (small chance in forseeable future, but something to think about)</li><li>Steam forces updates, which may come at poor times. This isn't too bad on FPS games, but on a TBS like Civilization where a game can span months this IS a huge issue since it will probably break saves. And don't give me the "turn off auto-update" crap. There are many, many games that won't let you play unless fully patched (i.e. almost all of them). The only real way around it is via Offline Mode, and Valve has made it crystal clear that's a mode for laptops moving between Wi-Fi points.</li><li>Steam is becoming a closed distribution. They own at least 90% of the digital distribution market. Also, many of the benefits are there simply because of competition. Those holiday sales? D2D and Impulse did them years before Steam, and Steam barely jumped on the bandwagon.</li><li>Steam ###### up. It's another point of failure in the system of game maker to user. I personally have had Steam re-download the ENTIRE GAME for several games when a patch comes out. That's 24+GB of wasted bandwidth due to a glitch in their program.</li><li>Steam is DRM. Some people dislike DRM.</li><li>Steam costs system memory/CPU cycles. This is truly a minor point since if you can't afford 300K, what kind of computer do you have?</li><li>Have I mentioned offline mode sucks? And that I've had many times where I have had to have gone weeks without internet?</li><li>Steam is middleware, and can skim profit for the service. Less $$$ to devs.</li><li>Steam has to approve content (especially mods) to ensure it's all packaged correctly and such, meaning extra latency and potential meddling between devs and users.</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=1771667:date=May 20 2010, 01:31 AM:name=Rehnquist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rehnquist @ May 20 2010, 01:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771667"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What precludes you from playing a game on Steam again? Did you stop playing NS1 when it was moved to Steam, too?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yep. i played ns 2.0 up until the day won shut down
when i buy a game, i dont want to another program jus so i can play the game. as a distribution program, i think it works alright although i'd rather own a disc so i dont have to redownload the game everytime i have to reinstall it because i have limited monthly bandwith
<!--quoteo(post=1771706:date=May 19 2010, 09:03 PM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ May 19 2010, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yep. i played ns 2.0 up until the day won shut down
when i buy a game, i dont want to another program jus so i can play the game. as a distribution program, i think it works alright although i'd rather own a disc so i dont have to redownload the game everytime i have to reinstall it because i have limited monthly bandwith<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This really ticked me off the first time I bought Half Life 2. Its a Single Player Game. The fact that I absolutely needed to install Steam for it to even install made me hate Steam even more at that point.
This is a problem with distribution networks, IMO. Sure, the framework might help games get developed faster, but is there any reason at all why the Framework can't be bundled with the game when it is installed? At least have an option to install the Stand-Alone Steam Framework (which would only authenticate CD-Keys but require no account to actually add the CD-Key to or Steam to be installed at all, except perhaps for multiplayer) or Integrate it with Steam i.e. as the current set up allows.
I don't have anything against Steam really at the moment, or Valve for that matter, but being forced into a position where I need a single application to run 90% of the games you own, then it becomes a problem. This sort of DRM has really widdled its way into our lives and if we don't stand it for Music, why the hell are we not doing anything about it when it comes to our games?
And about the question of "what happens if Steam goes down?": Its been said by many that they would likely present EXEs to install the games as a Stand Alone application, not requiring Steam at all. There are so many issues with this however. What happens when the publisher/developer of the game you bought goes under? Steam will stop selling said game and likely not be able to provide a Stand Alone EXE for download. Some games probably wouldn't be able to be ported to Stand Alone EXEs either, so there goes that plan for those games as well.
Its really a shame they've decided to only do a Steam-only distribution. I guess this also means that any Linux builds are out of the question as well until Steam gets ported to it too...
In relation to not having to download the games again if you need to re-install...
All you need is to backup your SteamApps folder and that contains all the GCF files and content for most of your games. I have had numerous PC moves and just move the Steam folder re-install Steam and all is good.
I believe there is also an option if you right click on a game to "Backup" although I am not in front of my home computer at the moment.
What if Steam went under...
I don't know if Valve will go under, they have licensed a fair few popular titles. Even so lets say they do go under. Most of the content is stored in GCF files which contain all the source.
There is GCFScape which allows you to open these files and extract the contents. I'm sure IF Steam did go under there would be someone smart enough to develop an alternative client to allow you to at minimal retrieve/install your games.
Now one issue could be that if you had lost all your content you would not be able to re-download etc. I assume on a legal perspective Valve would have to provide a way for people to retrieve their purchases in a stand-alone form before they closed shop.
But these are speculations anyway. What if Microsoft went under?
The other alternative I have seen is I believe Dark Messiah I purchased this through a store and received a DVD for it. Once installed (Normally without Steam) I had an executable in the game folder which allowed me to "Install it to Steam". I am fairly sure it was Dark Messiah but I know there was one game this was available in.
Hi there, I wanted to keep this informative for those concerned about the issue, not turn this into a pro/con Steam topic. Well, it's the internet, I should've known better ;)
Since we're already there, yes, I actually did stop playing NS1 when it fully transitioned to Steam. Curiosity made me try it, but it was a buggy mess back then, even compared to WON. The magic attraction of NS lured me back with later releases, but quite a few guys I regularly played with left the game forever when WON was shut down. The mentioned buggy state improved dramatically over the years, the underlying content-control mechanisms did not. There are always some reports about dubious practises, like regional restrictions or expired validation tickets preventing offline play, however people generally don't care about those if they don't affect them. That changed for me earlier this year. I suddenly found my account disabled, for reasons unknown to me. A struggle with Steam's customer support followed, spanning a few months. At the end of it, I could access the account again, but neither did they tell me why it was disabled in the first place, nor did they apologise for the inconvenience. Suffice it to say that after this, the company behind it is a lot less trustworthy in my eyes. Obviously not trustworthy enough for me to surrender an NS2 SE license to them. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice...
Concerning the 'free' Steamworks toolset, it might be used to create a level of dependency where it's not feasible anymore to publish the game without Steam, which is the point where Valve Corporation will be able to cash up for their efforts. Just a guess, it seems to have worked in this case :/
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On January 28, 2008, Valve released Steamworks, a free development and publishing suite (granted at Valve's discretion or with an Unreal Engine 3 license)[29][30] that gives developers access to every component of Steam.[31] Steamworks can be combined with a standard Steam distribution agreement, the latter of which gives it advertising space in the Steam store but also provides Valve with a share of revenue; Audiosurf became the first game to be released in this way in February 2008.[32] Several major games have since implemented Steamworks, including Aliens vs. Predator, Modern Warfare 2, Dawn of War II, and Unreal Tournament 3.
Most games using the Steamworks API also opt for a presence in the Steam store. The only known exception (since Valve does not make announcements about such games) is NBA 2K9.[33] In March 2010, Epic Games announced that they had integrated Steamworks into Unreal Engine 3, and were offering it to licensees.[30]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just don't know what parts of "Steam distribution system" it refers to whether it's for purchases only or any distribution such as game installers or patch based system etc.
In any case I'm sure this is negotiated and would have to be reasonable otherwise people would have no reason to use it.
I agree with alot of what has been said in past posts, and It's ok to discuss such things if we're calm about it. I's not like these are the Steam forums where Gabe's henchmen attack you (I'm joking)!
I've thought about everything more and come to the conclusion that parallels can be drawn with microsoft and EA. We all love games and software in general right? But is it possible to dislike the creators at the same time, because of how they run their businesses? The answer might be yes. I love Half-Life 2, I pay for half-Life 2 but I'm not a fan of Valve.
<!--quoteo(post=1771702:date=May 20 2010, 01:49 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ May 20 2010, 01:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771702"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Allow me to enumerate the many, and logical reasons, people are wary of Steam
<ul><li>What if Steam is shut down? Where do our games go? (small chance in forseeable future, but something to think about)</li><li>Steam forces updates, which may come at poor times. This isn't too bad on FPS games, but on a TBS like Civilization where a game can span months this IS a huge issue since it will probably break saves. And don't give me the "turn off auto-update" crap. There are many, many games that won't let you play unless fully patched (i.e. almost all of them). The only real way around it is via Offline Mode, and Valve has made it crystal clear that's a mode for laptops moving between Wi-Fi points.</li><li>Steam is becoming a closed distribution. They own at least 90% of the digital distribution market. Also, many of the benefits are there simply because of competition. Those holiday sales? D2D and Impulse did them years before Steam, and Steam barely jumped on the bandwagon.</li><li>Steam ###### up. It's another point of failure in the system of game maker to user. I personally have had Steam re-download the ENTIRE GAME for several games when a patch comes out. That's 24+GB of wasted bandwidth due to a glitch in their program.</li><li>Steam is DRM. Some people dislike DRM.</li><li>Steam costs system memory/CPU cycles. This is truly a minor point since if you can't afford 300K, what kind of computer do you have?</li><li>Have I mentioned offline mode sucks? And that I've had many times where I have had to have gone weeks without internet?</li><li>Steam is middleware, and can skim profit for the service. Less $$$ to devs.</li><li>Steam has to approve content (especially mods) to ensure it's all packaged correctly and such, meaning extra latency and potential meddling between devs and users.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. It has allready been announced that IF (and that's a very very big IF) steam ever goes down they will release a patch to unlock the games so you can play them offline. This is allready possible to play games without steamnetwork. Offline mode, if you really that paranoid about steam shutting down you allways have the option of downloading the game and burn it to a DVD so you have an offline copy to use in offline mode.
2. I haven't run into any issues with SP games forcing me to update before i could play, with MP games sure but there it makes sense because it prevents fragmentation of the community.
3. This should rather be a sign of how well steam works, i buy stuff from steam, impulse and D2D. Most of the time from D2D because their prices are better as they offer UK prices even to me as a german while steam rips me off with german prices. But buying stuff trough D2D has it's own share of problems the most obvious one beeing their horrible downloader. I btw fail to see how this is an issue, it's like saying "windows sucks because 90% of PC's run windows".
4. I don't know what ###### means but like every piece of software steam ain't perfect, i never downloaded a game completly again because of a patch. But if i had to there allways had been a workaround allowing me to fix the issue so i only had to download the patch.
5. CD Key's are an DRM, accounts for MP are DRM, jada jada, steam is like the least annoying DRM out there. Games without DRM these days are rare, most of the time you end up with crap like ubisofts DRM, rootkits or CD Keys getting used for account creating. All of witch end up beeing way more annoying than steam is.
6. The ammount of memory/CPU used by steam is far less than what most people leave running anyway without bothering. Most people have 2 lines of stuff running in their system tray that's useless and eating up more performance than steam does.
7. No you haven't, you also haven't stated a reason as to why it sucks. I never had a problem with it.
8. Steam is a distribution platform and not "middleware", without it the majority of dev's wouldn't have a place to publish their stuff on anyway. They would be stuck with figuring out a DRM for their game, get servers so people can download their game and all kind of other things that usually would involve alot more work and costs for a small dev's.
Nobody forces dev's to go to steam, they can do it all for themself. The fact that so many do it should be a sign for you that dev's are actually happy about what steam offers. If they wouldn't be happy about what steam offers they can allways go to the competition or setup the stuff themself. It's also way more fair than some other digital distribution systems like PSN/Xbox live in regards to how much % the distributer gets from each sale.
9. Where did you get that one from? There are also "non steam approved"mods that nobody at steam/valve cares about. Getting mods on steam as steam approved just makes it easier for users to install them. Because they can just click on "install" instead of copying dozens of files in different directories and running in all kind of different issues.
Steam is not perfect, nothing is perfect. But it's an far lesser evil than many people make it out to be. It's kinda like those people still running Windows XP that are scared of change and have to make up all kind of stupid reasons as to why they are still sticking to a nearly decade old OS. People are scared of change, that's the main reason why they don't want to use steam, they also don't like giving in that they might be wrong about steam so they just keep on pretending how evil and bad steam is out of principle.
Fact is: if you are not using steam you are missing out on a ton of great games and cheap sales, doing so out of principle is kinda stupid...
<!--quoteo(post=1771718:date=May 20 2010, 11:02 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ May 20 2010, 11:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. It has allready been announced that IF (and that's a very very big IF) steam ever goes down they will release a patch to unlock the games so you can play them offline. This is allready possible to play games without steamnetwork. Offline mode, if you really that paranoid about steam shutting down you allways have the option of downloading the game and burn it to a DVD so you have an offline copy to use in offline mode.
5. CD Key's are an DRM, accounts for MP are DRM, jada jada, steam is like the least annoying DRM out there. Games without DRM these days are rare, most of the time you end up with crap like ubisofts DRM, rootkits or CD Keys getting used for account creating. All of witch end up beeing way more annoying than steam is.
7. No you haven't, you also haven't stated a reason as to why it [Offline mode] sucks. I never had a problem with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just a few general comments aside the pro/contra debate.
1. You have to be really naive to take that as a guarantee. When Valve goes down, they'll have more important things to worry about than releasing a Steam patch.
5. No, CD keys are not DRM. CD keys exist to make sure you actually bought the product. DRM controls the way you can use it. And please explain how Steam is less annoying than CD keys, seeing how pretty much every game on there needs to be activated with a (CD) key.
7. Offline mode is far from perfect. Ever tried to play a Steam game at a LAN without internet access?
<!--quoteo(post=1771722:date=May 20 2010, 07:13 AM:name=Razagal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Razagal @ May 20 2010, 07:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just a few general comments aside the pro/contra debate.
1. You have to be really naive to take that as a guarantee. When Valve goes down, they'll have more important things to worry about than releasing a Steam patch.
5. No, CD keys are not DRM. CD keys exist to make sure you actually bought the product. DRM controls the way you can use it. And please explain how Steam is less annoying than CD keys, seeing how pretty much every game on there needs to be activated with a (CD) key.
7. Offline mode is far from perfect. Ever tried to play a Steam game at a LAN without internet access?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The bottom line is that every game is going to end up with some form of DRM. I prefer steam to having to always be connected to the internet, having install limits, and getting rootkitted by EA. Really, it seems like a lot of people who hate steam do so because it's harder to pirate games and play online. Others just hate the idea of being dependent on another system. And I've never had problems lanning in offline mode.
And to the other guy - how do you go a month without net access? If it's a laptop, you've got plenty of wifi spots you could use I'm sure (well unless you're from some small town in australia) and if it's a desktop, I'm just confused.
IMHO, a lot of the steam haters just don't know how to use the functions of steam to get what they want, are pirates, like to play old versions of games (if a patch breaks a game, that's the devs' fault, not steam's), or just fear "the man" and like to think by having CDs they're somehow protected/aren't supporting corporotocracy (like ppl who install linux but have no use for it). Just use steam, it ain't bad.
<!--quoteo(post=1771714:date=May 20 2010, 07:07 PM:name=Rothgar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rothgar @ May 20 2010, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In relation to not having to download the games again if you need to re-install...
All you need is to backup your SteamApps folder and that contains all the GCF files and content for most of your games. I have had numerous PC moves and just move the Steam folder re-install Steam and all is good.
I believe there is also an option if you right click on a game to "Backup" although I am not in front of my home computer at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> can i use that feature to copy my games from my desktop to my laptop as well?
<!--quoteo(post=1771718:date=May 20 2010, 08:02 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ May 20 2010, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->8. Steam is a distribution platform and not "middleware", without it the majority of dev's wouldn't have a place to publish their stuff on anyway. They would be stuck with figuring out a DRM for their game, get servers so people can download their game and all kind of other things that usually would involve alot more work and costs for a small dev's.
Nobody forces dev's to go to steam, they can do it all for themself. The fact that so many do it should be a sign for you that dev's are actually happy about what steam offers. If they wouldn't be happy about what steam offers they can allways go to the competition or setup the stuff themself. It's also way more fair than some other digital distribution systems like PSN/Xbox live in regards to how much % the distributer gets from each sale.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> if steam is a distribution program, then it shouldnt be required to run games only to distribute them.
<!--quoteo(post=1771799:date=May 21 2010, 04:12 PM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ May 21 2010, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->can i use that feature to copy my games from my desktop to my laptop as well?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes you can, just copy the folder and when you log in it knows all the games you have access to and if the folders etc are in place and the GCF files exist it will use local data.
Of course you need to install to the correct location and put the SteamApps folders in the right place.
<!--quoteo(post=1771722:date=May 20 2010, 02:13 PM:name=Razagal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Razagal @ May 20 2010, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just a few general comments aside the pro/contra debate.
1. You have to be really naive to take that as a guarantee. When Valve goes down, they'll have more important things to worry about than releasing a Steam patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As Valve stated the patch already exists and is already tested, they would only have to apply it. Of course there is no way to be sure/believe them but I also do not see why people shouldn't. Sometimes out there there are even big companies which do not constantly lie to their customers. And again, the if in "if Steam goes down" is a very big <b>if</b>. What if Microsoft goes down and their certificaton servers are offline? Same problem. Does it stop anyone here from buying Windows?
<!--quoteo(post=1771722:date=May 20 2010, 02:13 PM:name=Razagal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Razagal @ May 20 2010, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And please explain how Steam is less annoying than CD keys, seeing how pretty much every game on there needs to be activated with a (CD) key.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think what he means is that in a steam game you simply click "buy", download the game and play. In retail games you have to enter the key, install the game (which can take quiet some time nowadays), register at a Publishers (DRM) platform, download an update, apply it and maybe then you are able to play. In that way Steam is much more easier to use then many retail games. Not all of them and without it it would be easier, but in comparison Steam is quiet user friendly and gives some nice features to the game and gamer. At least it's the lesser of two evils, thats for sure.
<!--quoteo(post=1771722:date=May 20 2010, 02:13 PM:name=Razagal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Razagal @ May 20 2010, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->7. Offline mode is far from perfect. Ever tried to play a Steam game at a LAN without internet access?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Tried it a few times. Never ran into problems. But maybe its just me...
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Karrde)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Karrde)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->like ppl who install linux but have no use for it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What does that mean? Or at least has to do with the argument? Whats the "use" of linux? Or of windows? They install something they have no use for, so they dont use it? Im confused...
I knew that, but you'll often have some poeple who forgot to go in offline mode before. Then they can't play even if they got the current version. How stupid is that?
We get the odd ball that does do that and I cant understand what steam needs to do before you go in offline mode anyway because it does not seem to check everying is upto date when you click it, but we always have a dongle just in case. Simple preperation from the event hoster.
Steam will prompt to go into offline mode when your internet gets disconnected. Everytime my internet fails, my browser is the first to fail, MSN disconnects next, some other programs timeout, and after 5-6 minutes steam pops up that the connection is lost, would you like to go to offline mode? i agree it takes abysmal long sometimes, but it does work.
I'm not sure how to go to online mode again, but i thought just reconnect internet.
<!--quoteo(post=1771718:date=May 20 2010, 02:02 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ May 20 2010, 02:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. It has allready been announced that IF (and that's a very very big IF) steam ever goes down they will release a patch to unlock the games so you can play them offline. This is allready possible to play games without steamnetwork. Offline mode, if you really that paranoid about steam shutting down you allways have the option of downloading the game and burn it to a DVD so you have an offline copy to use in offline mode.
2. I haven't run into any issues with SP games forcing me to update before i could play, with MP games sure but there it makes sense because it prevents fragmentation of the community.
3. This should rather be a sign of how well steam works, i buy stuff from steam, impulse and D2D. Most of the time from D2D because their prices are better as they offer UK prices even to me as a german while steam rips me off with german prices. But buying stuff trough D2D has it's own share of problems the most obvious one beeing their horrible downloader. I btw fail to see how this is an issue, it's like saying "windows sucks because 90% of PC's run windows".
4. I don't know what ###### means but like every piece of software steam ain't perfect, i never downloaded a game completly again because of a patch. But if i had to there allways had been a workaround allowing me to fix the issue so i only had to download the patch.
5. CD Key's are an DRM, accounts for MP are DRM, jada jada, steam is like the least annoying DRM out there. Games without DRM these days are rare, most of the time you end up with crap like ubisofts DRM, rootkits or CD Keys getting used for account creating. All of witch end up beeing way more annoying than steam is.
6. The ammount of memory/CPU used by steam is far less than what most people leave running anyway without bothering. Most people have 2 lines of stuff running in their system tray that's useless and eating up more performance than steam does.
7. No you haven't, you also haven't stated a reason as to why it sucks. I never had a problem with it.
8. Steam is a distribution platform and not "middleware", without it the majority of dev's wouldn't have a place to publish their stuff on anyway. They would be stuck with figuring out a DRM for their game, get servers so people can download their game and all kind of other things that usually would involve alot more work and costs for a small dev's.
Nobody forces dev's to go to steam, they can do it all for themself. The fact that so many do it should be a sign for you that dev's are actually happy about what steam offers. If they wouldn't be happy about what steam offers they can allways go to the competition or setup the stuff themself. It's also way more fair than some other digital distribution systems like PSN/Xbox live in regards to how much % the distributer gets from each sale.
9. Where did you get that one from? There are also "non steam approved"mods that nobody at steam/valve cares about. Getting mods on steam as steam approved just makes it easier for users to install them. Because they can just click on "install" instead of copying dozens of files in different directories and running in all kind of different issues.
Steam is not perfect, nothing is perfect. But it's an far lesser evil than many people make it out to be. It's kinda like those people still running Windows XP that are scared of change and have to make up all kind of stupid reasons as to why they are still sticking to a nearly decade old OS. People are scared of change, that's the main reason why they don't want to use steam, they also don't like giving in that they might be wrong about steam so they just keep on pretending how evil and bad steam is out of principle.
Fact is: if you are not using steam you are missing out on a ton of great games and cheap sales, doing so out of principle is kinda stupid...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As it turns out I use Steam. A lot. Save your nerd rage.
1) No duh. 2) Again, depends on the SP. I know Portal and Complete Disregard for Gravity and several others work plenty fine in Offline Mode. However, there are also many, many that have a SP and MP component and they don't work w/o internet/patched up. 3) Closed system = monopoly = potential screw you over. Sure it's the best Digital Distributor in terms of games, and I never said it sucked. Just a word of caution. 4) Congrats! I have had issues. And have many, many others. Count yourself lucky. 5) Read other posts about DRM and stuffs. 6) No duh. 7) I had internet suddenly disappear for an entire week. My computer was not on at the time of breakdown. I could NOT start Offline mode. Apparently I would have either had to have a dropped internet and it prompt Offline Mode, or saved my login info, or manually dropped into Offline Mode. I didn't. It sucked. Also, several games don't even launch in Offline Mode which is kinda a bummer if I wanted to run around killing bots. 8) Some people have issues of devs not getting 100%. I don't personally, but some do. And, as you've illustrated, there's some nice perks. 9) Any officially supported Steamworks mod has to undergo serious testing prior to launch. Look at Dystopia, Age of Chivalry, Eternal Silence, and several others right around the time they first got into becoming official Steamworks. They had predicted dates, then it got delayed because stuff wasn't Steam approved (or another mod that was supposed to get launched with them didn't have their stuff together). And no duh there are non-steamworks mods.
<!--quoteo(post=1772065:date=May 24 2010, 02:23 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ May 24 2010, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As it turns out I use Steam. A lot. Save your nerd rage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> His points were very level headed, and giving the nerd label makes you look like an ass.
<!--quoteo(post=1772067:date=May 23 2010, 10:08 PM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ May 23 2010, 10:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->His points were very level headed, and giving the nerd label makes you look like an ass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, they are overall very level headed. Except the ones where he attacks/counters things I already said weren't an issue (or at least big ones).
Also, ignoring someone's personal experience in favor of your own personal experience? Totally awesome.
That's what happens to me on the Steam forums, people ignore any critical points and pretend such issues exist (they normally poke me with a stick and I go away). Anyway, this is UnknownWorlds, a great site that has a better community (I hope)!
The original topic I think has been thoroughly explored, and we all now know Steam is in the picture, for good or for worse. It's now crystal clear.
I'm definitely an NS2 and NS1 lurker (Just looked at my account and, wow, registered in 2003!). Not prepared to pre-order yet but will probably get the game when it eventually comes out.
This thread caught my eye because of Steam. Personally, as someone else said on here, the good points of Steam outweigh the bad points more than enough for me to use and recommend Steam to people.
<!--quoteo(post=1771718:date=May 20 2010, 09:02 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ May 20 2010, 09:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. It has allready been announced that IF (and that's a very very big IF) steam ever goes down they will release a patch to unlock the games so you can play them offline. This is allready possible to play games without steamnetwork. Offline mode, if you really that paranoid about steam shutting down you allways have the option of downloading the game and burn it to a DVD so you have an offline copy to use in offline mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry for my ignornat, correct me if I'm wrong, If i just burn the game files out of the installed Steam directory onto a DVD, is it possible to run game from the DVD??? I think that game on the DVD still requires steam cilent to start or sth, we cant just run it as if it's a offline version,right? is it possible to use this makeshift method to back up steam-powered game?? I dont think it's working. am i wrong?
<!--quoteo(post=1774859:date=Jun 14 2010, 11:40 PM:name=Cyrus0021)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cyrus0021 @ Jun 14 2010, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774859"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry for my ignornat, correct me if I'm wrong, If i just burn the game files out of the installed Steam directory onto a DVD, is it possible to run game from the DVD??? I think that game on the DVD still requires steam cilent to start or sth, we cant just run it as if it's a offline version,right? is it possible to use this makeshift method to back up steam-powered game?? I dont think it's working. am i wrong?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure Steam needs the resource files for the game in its own directory. The EXE would likely either crash, say Steam isn't running (regardless of whether it is or not), or if you had the game already installed in Steam, it would just load the resource files from its own directory. If it isn't installed but added to your account, it may even just start downloading the game or yell at you about missing files.
Comments
just wanted to inform those interested that I did contact Flayra about this issue, who acknowledged that the original plans of having a direct-download version have been canceled recently. There won't be any future version that's not distributed through Steam. Since he also offered a refund because of this, I think I can safely say that they never intended to deceive anyone about this distribution issue. Still can't shake off the regret for cancelling my pre-order from May last year, but the circumstances left me no choice :(
I hope the game will succeed regardless, sorry about not contributing more than a bit of feedback based on the first engine test.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What precludes you from playing a game on Steam again? Did you stop playing NS1 when it was moved to Steam, too?
Buying a game on CD or off Steam doesn't make you "own" the game. In most cases, you are still buying only a license, a license you have to agree to prior to playing the game. So in the end you still don't own anything.
Hi again,
I suppose what I like about buying non DRM games is companies can't walk in to your house and nab them easy, and if they're in the wrong it gives the consumer an illusion of protection/strengh (which I like).
Do you think Steam will be offering this game for pre-order at a much cheaper price than pre-ordering from UnknownWorlds?
has anyone even read what Steam is?
Feel free to read sometime:
<a href="http://www.valvesoftware.com/business/" target="_blank">http://www.valvesoftware.com/business/</a>
<a href="http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/" target="_blank">http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/</a>
Yes Steam is owned by Valve and we all have tainted views of Valve from time to time based on bad experiences. However I don't see what everyone's problem with Steam is "currently". I used Steam in the initial stages when WON shutdown just like most of you else and it was ######. It overloaded all the time (Not enough content servers to handle the peak loads) and basically all-round was abominable with it's authentication issues all the time etc.
It has however matured over the years and now I believe it is a fairly stable platform and most of the initial features that were supposed to work now work (Friends list, Communities etc)
For those worried about costs, Steamworks is free. It says so on the website so I assume it has cost the NS team nothing to integrate and take advantage of Steamworks features. So to those who say "I don't want to give extra money to Valve I would of bought at 75% off" you haven't given any money to Valve.
I am fairly sure as well Valve can't just make a 75% promo it would be UWE telling Valve they want a promotion or working in conjunction with UWE, now in the future I'm sure if UWE decide to use the Steam store which is entirely possible Valve may get a cut of that or a transaction fee. However all Pre-Orders so far were done direct through UWE so they have received the full money.
"There are no licensing fees and there’s no charge for bandwidth, retail copies, or OEM distribution."
I also don't believe their is any DRM involved however I could be wrong on this, I would of thought that would be up to the game developers though. I don't think all games have DRM as I have seen advertisements where DRM has been removed for certain Steam games because it caused issues?
Just look at the features of NS moving to Steam though:
Connecting to an established Gaming Community (Steam houses a lot of games these days and there are millions of players world-wide using it)
Exposure (They will gain a larger audience awareness through using Steam with potential advertising)
Content Distribution (UWE will not have to setup multiple download servers or make their own distribution system that could potentially land the same pitfalls as Steam initially did or cost them more money in bandwidth fees and development time building a system)
Patch Management (As far as I am aware they will be able to make micro patches and people will be able to download straight away via Steam once they are published)
Cloud Support? (Sounds like if they wanted to, each player gets 100MB space in Valve's cloud where control settings or other data etc "could" be stored so they are available wherever you play)
Free Bandwidth (Saves UWE spending large amounts of money on proper distribution systems like Akamai or even trying to purchase dedicated servers to distribute the game and patches or even the cruder method of trying to get free mirrors which requires time and resources to manage)
Friends List (They do not need to try and build their own friends list system like EA did in Bad Company 2 which utterly fails)
Time Saving (Now they don't need to spend time on the above features they can focus on building NS2 to its full potential)
Micro transactions? (Sounds like they can potentially make extra content or skins etc possibly for a small fee which would help bring in a bit of extra revenue. Not sure how well this would work or if this would be a con depends on what becomes available and whether it starts destroying balance)
Did we remember that all of this is free?
Now I'm not a Valve supporter but if I was developing a game and I had the option of all those features for free I would jump on it. it just seems logical to me and I assume would make life a lot easier for the development team.
<ul><li>What if Steam is shut down? Where do our games go? (small chance in forseeable future, but something to think about)</li><li>Steam forces updates, which may come at poor times. This isn't too bad on FPS games, but on a TBS like Civilization where a game can span months this IS a huge issue since it will probably break saves. And don't give me the "turn off auto-update" crap. There are many, many games that won't let you play unless fully patched (i.e. almost all of them). The only real way around it is via Offline Mode, and Valve has made it crystal clear that's a mode for laptops moving between Wi-Fi points.</li><li>Steam is becoming a closed distribution. They own at least 90% of the digital distribution market. Also, many of the benefits are there simply because of competition. Those holiday sales? D2D and Impulse did them years before Steam, and Steam barely jumped on the bandwagon.</li><li>Steam ###### up. It's another point of failure in the system of game maker to user. I personally have had Steam re-download the ENTIRE GAME for several games when a patch comes out. That's 24+GB of wasted bandwidth due to a glitch in their program.</li><li>Steam is DRM. Some people dislike DRM.</li><li>Steam costs system memory/CPU cycles. This is truly a minor point since if you can't afford 300K, what kind of computer do you have?</li><li>Have I mentioned offline mode sucks? And that I've had many times where I have had to have gone weeks without internet?</li><li>Steam is middleware, and can skim profit for the service. Less $$$ to devs.</li><li>Steam has to approve content (especially mods) to ensure it's all packaged correctly and such, meaning extra latency and potential meddling between devs and users.</li></ul>
yep. i played ns 2.0 up until the day won shut down
when i buy a game, i dont want to another program jus so i can play the game. as a distribution program, i think it works alright although i'd rather own a disc so i dont have to redownload the game everytime i have to reinstall it because i have limited monthly bandwith
when i buy a game, i dont want to another program jus so i can play the game. as a distribution program, i think it works alright although i'd rather own a disc so i dont have to redownload the game everytime i have to reinstall it because i have limited monthly bandwith<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This really ticked me off the first time I bought Half Life 2. Its a Single Player Game. The fact that I absolutely needed to install Steam for it to even install made me hate Steam even more at that point.
This is a problem with distribution networks, IMO. Sure, the framework might help games get developed faster, but is there any reason at all why the Framework can't be bundled with the game when it is installed? At least have an option to install the Stand-Alone Steam Framework (which would only authenticate CD-Keys but require no account to actually add the CD-Key to or Steam to be installed at all, except perhaps for multiplayer) or Integrate it with Steam i.e. as the current set up allows.
I don't have anything against Steam really at the moment, or Valve for that matter, but being forced into a position where I need a single application to run 90% of the games you own, then it becomes a problem. This sort of DRM has really widdled its way into our lives and if we don't stand it for Music, why the hell are we not doing anything about it when it comes to our games?
And about the question of "what happens if Steam goes down?": Its been said by many that they would likely present EXEs to install the games as a Stand Alone application, not requiring Steam at all. There are so many issues with this however. What happens when the publisher/developer of the game you bought goes under? Steam will stop selling said game and likely not be able to provide a Stand Alone EXE for download. Some games probably wouldn't be able to be ported to Stand Alone EXEs either, so there goes that plan for those games as well.
Its really a shame they've decided to only do a Steam-only distribution. I guess this also means that any Linux builds are out of the question as well until Steam gets ported to it too...
All you need is to backup your SteamApps folder and that contains all the GCF files and content for most of your games. I have had numerous PC moves and just move the Steam folder re-install Steam and all is good.
I believe there is also an option if you right click on a game to "Backup" although I am not in front of my home computer at the moment.
What if Steam went under...
I don't know if Valve will go under, they have licensed a fair few popular titles. Even so lets say they do go under. Most of the content is stored in GCF files which contain all the source.
There is GCFScape which allows you to open these files and extract the contents. I'm sure IF Steam did go under there would be someone smart enough to develop an alternative client to allow you to at minimal retrieve/install your games.
Now one issue could be that if you had lost all your content you would not be able to re-download etc. I assume on a legal perspective Valve would have to provide a way for people to retrieve their purchases in a stand-alone form before they closed shop.
But these are speculations anyway. What if Microsoft went under?
The other alternative I have seen is I believe Dark Messiah I purchased this through a store and received a DVD for it. Once installed (Normally without Steam) I had an executable in the game folder which allowed me to "Install it to Steam". I am fairly sure it was Dark Messiah but I know there was one game this was available in.
I wanted to keep this informative for those concerned about the issue, not turn this into a pro/con Steam topic. Well, it's the internet, I should've known better ;)
Since we're already there, yes, I actually did stop playing NS1 when it fully transitioned to Steam. Curiosity made me try it, but it was a buggy mess back then, even compared to WON. The magic attraction of NS lured me back with later releases, but quite a few guys I regularly played with left the game forever when WON was shut down.
The mentioned buggy state improved dramatically over the years, the underlying content-control mechanisms did not. There are always some reports about dubious practises, like regional restrictions or expired validation tickets preventing offline play, however people generally don't care about those if they don't affect them. That changed for me earlier this year.
I suddenly found my account disabled, for reasons unknown to me. A struggle with Steam's customer support followed, spanning a few months. At the end of it, I could access the account again, but neither did they tell me why it was disabled in the first place, nor did they apologise for the inconvenience. Suffice it to say that after this, the company behind it is a lot less trustworthy in my eyes. Obviously not trustworthy enough for me to surrender an NS2 SE license to them. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice...
Concerning the 'free' Steamworks toolset, it might be used to create a level of dependency where it's not feasible anymore to publish the game without Steam, which is the point where Valve Corporation will be able to cash up for their efforts. Just a guess, it seems to have worked in this case :/
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_%28content_delivery%29" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_%28content_delivery%29</a>
Under "Steamworks":
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On January 28, 2008, Valve released Steamworks, a free development and publishing suite (granted at Valve's discretion or with an Unreal Engine 3 license)[29][30] that gives developers access to every component of Steam.[31] Steamworks can be combined with a standard Steam distribution agreement, the latter of which gives it advertising space in the Steam store but also provides Valve with a share of revenue; Audiosurf became the first game to be released in this way in February 2008.[32] Several major games have since implemented Steamworks, including Aliens vs. Predator, Modern Warfare 2, Dawn of War II, and Unreal Tournament 3.
Most games using the Steamworks API also opt for a presence in the Steam store. The only known exception (since Valve does not make announcements about such games) is NBA 2K9.[33] In March 2010, Epic Games announced that they had integrated Steamworks into Unreal Engine 3, and were offering it to licensees.[30]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just don't know what parts of "Steam distribution system" it refers to whether it's for purchases only or any distribution such as game installers or patch based system etc.
In any case I'm sure this is negotiated and would have to be reasonable otherwise people would have no reason to use it.
I've thought about everything more and come to the conclusion that parallels can be drawn with microsoft and EA. We all love games and software in general right? But is it possible to dislike the creators at the same time, because of how they run their businesses? The answer might be yes. I love Half-Life 2, I pay for half-Life 2 but I'm not a fan of Valve.
<ul><li>What if Steam is shut down? Where do our games go? (small chance in forseeable future, but something to think about)</li><li>Steam forces updates, which may come at poor times. This isn't too bad on FPS games, but on a TBS like Civilization where a game can span months this IS a huge issue since it will probably break saves. And don't give me the "turn off auto-update" crap. There are many, many games that won't let you play unless fully patched (i.e. almost all of them). The only real way around it is via Offline Mode, and Valve has made it crystal clear that's a mode for laptops moving between Wi-Fi points.</li><li>Steam is becoming a closed distribution. They own at least 90% of the digital distribution market. Also, many of the benefits are there simply because of competition. Those holiday sales? D2D and Impulse did them years before Steam, and Steam barely jumped on the bandwagon.</li><li>Steam ###### up. It's another point of failure in the system of game maker to user. I personally have had Steam re-download the ENTIRE GAME for several games when a patch comes out. That's 24+GB of wasted bandwidth due to a glitch in their program.</li><li>Steam is DRM. Some people dislike DRM.</li><li>Steam costs system memory/CPU cycles. This is truly a minor point since if you can't afford 300K, what kind of computer do you have?</li><li>Have I mentioned offline mode sucks? And that I've had many times where I have had to have gone weeks without internet?</li><li>Steam is middleware, and can skim profit for the service. Less $$$ to devs.</li><li>Steam has to approve content (especially mods) to ensure it's all packaged correctly and such, meaning extra latency and potential meddling between devs and users.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. It has allready been announced that IF (and that's a very very big IF) steam ever goes down they will release a patch to unlock the games so you can play them offline. This is allready possible to play games without steamnetwork. Offline mode, if you really that paranoid about steam shutting down you allways have the option of downloading the game and burn it to a DVD so you have an offline copy to use in offline mode.
2. I haven't run into any issues with SP games forcing me to update before i could play, with MP games sure but there it makes sense because it prevents fragmentation of the community.
3. This should rather be a sign of how well steam works, i buy stuff from steam, impulse and D2D. Most of the time from D2D because their prices are better as they offer UK prices even to me as a german while steam rips me off with german prices. But buying stuff trough D2D has it's own share of problems the most obvious one beeing their horrible downloader. I btw fail to see how this is an issue, it's like saying "windows sucks because 90% of PC's run windows".
4. I don't know what ###### means but like every piece of software steam ain't perfect, i never downloaded a game completly again because of a patch. But if i had to there allways had been a workaround allowing me to fix the issue so i only had to download the patch.
5. CD Key's are an DRM, accounts for MP are DRM, jada jada, steam is like the least annoying DRM out there. Games without DRM these days are rare, most of the time you end up with crap like ubisofts DRM, rootkits or CD Keys getting used for account creating. All of witch end up beeing way more annoying than steam is.
6. The ammount of memory/CPU used by steam is far less than what most people leave running anyway without bothering. Most people have 2 lines of stuff running in their system tray that's useless and eating up more performance than steam does.
7. No you haven't, you also haven't stated a reason as to why it sucks. I never had a problem with it.
8. Steam is a distribution platform and not "middleware", without it the majority of dev's wouldn't have a place to publish their stuff on anyway. They would be stuck with figuring out a DRM for their game, get servers so people can download their game and all kind of other things that usually would involve alot more work and costs for a small dev's.
Nobody forces dev's to go to steam, they can do it all for themself. The fact that so many do it should be a sign for you that dev's are actually happy about what steam offers. If they wouldn't be happy about what steam offers they can allways go to the competition or setup the stuff themself. It's also way more fair than some other digital distribution systems like PSN/Xbox live in regards to how much % the distributer gets from each sale.
9. Where did you get that one from? There are also "non steam approved"mods that nobody at steam/valve cares about. Getting mods on steam as steam approved just makes it easier for users to install them. Because they can just click on "install" instead of copying dozens of files in different directories and running in all kind of different issues.
Steam is not perfect, nothing is perfect. But it's an far lesser evil than many people make it out to be. It's kinda like those people still running Windows XP that are scared of change and have to make up all kind of stupid reasons as to why they are still sticking to a nearly decade old OS. People are scared of change, that's the main reason why they don't want to use steam, they also don't like giving in that they might be wrong about steam so they just keep on pretending how evil and bad steam is out of principle.
Fact is: if you are not using steam you are missing out on a ton of great games and cheap sales, doing so out of principle is kinda stupid...
5. CD Key's are an DRM, accounts for MP are DRM, jada jada, steam is like the least annoying DRM out there. Games without DRM these days are rare, most of the time you end up with crap like ubisofts DRM, rootkits or CD Keys getting used for account creating. All of witch end up beeing way more annoying than steam is.
7. No you haven't, you also haven't stated a reason as to why it [Offline mode] sucks. I never had a problem with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just a few general comments aside the pro/contra debate.
1. You have to be really naive to take that as a guarantee. When Valve goes down, they'll have more important things to worry about than releasing a Steam patch.
5. No, CD keys are not DRM. CD keys exist to make sure you actually bought the product. DRM controls the way you can use it.
And please explain how Steam is less annoying than CD keys, seeing how pretty much every game on there needs to be activated with a (CD) key.
7. Offline mode is far from perfect. Ever tried to play a Steam game at a LAN without internet access?
1. You have to be really naive to take that as a guarantee. When Valve goes down, they'll have more important things to worry about than releasing a Steam patch.
5. No, CD keys are not DRM. CD keys exist to make sure you actually bought the product. DRM controls the way you can use it.
And please explain how Steam is less annoying than CD keys, seeing how pretty much every game on there needs to be activated with a (CD) key.
7. Offline mode is far from perfect. Ever tried to play a Steam game at a LAN without internet access?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The bottom line is that every game is going to end up with some form of DRM. I prefer steam to having to always be connected to the internet, having install limits, and getting rootkitted by EA. Really, it seems like a lot of people who hate steam do so because it's harder to pirate games and play online. Others just hate the idea of being dependent on another system. And I've never had problems lanning in offline mode.
And to the other guy - how do you go a month without net access? If it's a laptop, you've got plenty of wifi spots you could use I'm sure (well unless you're from some small town in australia) and if it's a desktop, I'm just confused.
IMHO, a lot of the steam haters just don't know how to use the functions of steam to get what they want, are pirates, like to play old versions of games (if a patch breaks a game, that's the devs' fault, not steam's), or just fear "the man" and like to think by having CDs they're somehow protected/aren't supporting corporotocracy (like ppl who install linux but have no use for it). Just use steam, it ain't bad.
All you need is to backup your SteamApps folder and that contains all the GCF files and content for most of your games. I have had numerous PC moves and just move the Steam folder re-install Steam and all is good.
I believe there is also an option if you right click on a game to "Backup" although I am not in front of my home computer at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
can i use that feature to copy my games from my desktop to my laptop as well?
<!--quoteo(post=1771718:date=May 20 2010, 08:02 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ May 20 2010, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->8. Steam is a distribution platform and not "middleware", without it the majority of dev's wouldn't have a place to publish their stuff on anyway. They would be stuck with figuring out a DRM for their game, get servers so people can download their game and all kind of other things that usually would involve alot more work and costs for a small dev's.
Nobody forces dev's to go to steam, they can do it all for themself. The fact that so many do it should be a sign for you that dev's are actually happy about what steam offers. If they wouldn't be happy about what steam offers they can allways go to the competition or setup the stuff themself. It's also way more fair than some other digital distribution systems like PSN/Xbox live in regards to how much % the distributer gets from each sale.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if steam is a distribution program, then it shouldnt be required to run games only to distribute them.
Yes you can, just copy the folder and when you log in it knows all the games you have access to and if the folders etc are in place and the GCF files exist it will use local data.
Of course you need to install to the correct location and put the SteamApps folders in the right place.
1. You have to be really naive to take that as a guarantee. When Valve goes down, they'll have more important things to worry about than releasing a Steam patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As Valve stated the patch already exists and is already tested, they would only have to apply it. Of course there is no way to be sure/believe them but I also do not see why people shouldn't. Sometimes out there there are even big companies which do not constantly lie to their customers.
And again, the if in "if Steam goes down" is a very big <b>if</b>. What if Microsoft goes down and their certificaton servers are offline? Same problem. Does it stop anyone here from buying Windows?
<!--quoteo(post=1771722:date=May 20 2010, 02:13 PM:name=Razagal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Razagal @ May 20 2010, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And please explain how Steam is less annoying than CD keys, seeing how pretty much every game on there needs to be activated with a (CD) key.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think what he means is that in a steam game you simply click "buy", download the game and play. In retail games you have to enter the key, install the game (which can take quiet some time nowadays), register at a Publishers (DRM) platform, download an update, apply it and maybe then you are able to play. In that way Steam is much more easier to use then many retail games. Not all of them and without it it would be easier, but in comparison Steam is quiet user friendly and gives some nice features to the game and gamer. At least it's the lesser of two evils, thats for sure.
<!--quoteo(post=1771722:date=May 20 2010, 02:13 PM:name=Razagal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Razagal @ May 20 2010, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1771722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->7. Offline mode is far from perfect. Ever tried to play a Steam game at a LAN without internet access?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tried it a few times. Never ran into problems. But maybe its just me...
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Karrde)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Karrde)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->like ppl who install linux but have no use for it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What does that mean? Or at least has to do with the argument? Whats the "use" of linux? Or of windows? They install something they have no use for, so they dont use it? Im confused...
Every year, works fine.
Run Every game Once.
Go Into Offline Mode.
Pack computer away.
Goto party.
Then they can't play even if they got the current version. How stupid is that?
I'm not sure how to go to online mode again, but i thought just reconnect internet.
2. I haven't run into any issues with SP games forcing me to update before i could play, with MP games sure but there it makes sense because it prevents fragmentation of the community.
3. This should rather be a sign of how well steam works, i buy stuff from steam, impulse and D2D. Most of the time from D2D because their prices are better as they offer UK prices even to me as a german while steam rips me off with german prices. But buying stuff trough D2D has it's own share of problems the most obvious one beeing their horrible downloader. I btw fail to see how this is an issue, it's like saying "windows sucks because 90% of PC's run windows".
4. I don't know what ###### means but like every piece of software steam ain't perfect, i never downloaded a game completly again because of a patch. But if i had to there allways had been a workaround allowing me to fix the issue so i only had to download the patch.
5. CD Key's are an DRM, accounts for MP are DRM, jada jada, steam is like the least annoying DRM out there. Games without DRM these days are rare, most of the time you end up with crap like ubisofts DRM, rootkits or CD Keys getting used for account creating. All of witch end up beeing way more annoying than steam is.
6. The ammount of memory/CPU used by steam is far less than what most people leave running anyway without bothering. Most people have 2 lines of stuff running in their system tray that's useless and eating up more performance than steam does.
7. No you haven't, you also haven't stated a reason as to why it sucks. I never had a problem with it.
8. Steam is a distribution platform and not "middleware", without it the majority of dev's wouldn't have a place to publish their stuff on anyway. They would be stuck with figuring out a DRM for their game, get servers so people can download their game and all kind of other things that usually would involve alot more work and costs for a small dev's.
Nobody forces dev's to go to steam, they can do it all for themself. The fact that so many do it should be a sign for you that dev's are actually happy about what steam offers. If they wouldn't be happy about what steam offers they can allways go to the competition or setup the stuff themself. It's also way more fair than some other digital distribution systems like PSN/Xbox live in regards to how much % the distributer gets from each sale.
9. Where did you get that one from? There are also "non steam approved"mods that nobody at steam/valve cares about. Getting mods on steam as steam approved just makes it easier for users to install them. Because they can just click on "install" instead of copying dozens of files in different directories and running in all kind of different issues.
Steam is not perfect, nothing is perfect. But it's an far lesser evil than many people make it out to be. It's kinda like those people still running Windows XP that are scared of change and have to make up all kind of stupid reasons as to why they are still sticking to a nearly decade old OS. People are scared of change, that's the main reason why they don't want to use steam, they also don't like giving in that they might be wrong about steam so they just keep on pretending how evil and bad steam is out of principle.
Fact is: if you are not using steam you are missing out on a ton of great games and cheap sales, doing so out of principle is kinda stupid...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As it turns out I use Steam. A lot. Save your nerd rage.
1) No duh.
2) Again, depends on the SP. I know Portal and Complete Disregard for Gravity and several others work plenty fine in Offline Mode. However, there are also many, many that have a SP and MP component and they don't work w/o internet/patched up.
3) Closed system = monopoly = potential screw you over. Sure it's the best Digital Distributor in terms of games, and I never said it sucked. Just a word of caution.
4) Congrats! I have had issues. And have many, many others. Count yourself lucky.
5) Read other posts about DRM and stuffs.
6) No duh.
7) I had internet suddenly disappear for an entire week. My computer was not on at the time of breakdown. I could NOT start Offline mode. Apparently I would have either had to have a dropped internet and it prompt Offline Mode, or saved my login info, or manually dropped into Offline Mode. I didn't. It sucked. Also, several games don't even launch in Offline Mode which is kinda a bummer if I wanted to run around killing bots.
8) Some people have issues of devs not getting 100%. I don't personally, but some do. And, as you've illustrated, there's some nice perks.
9) Any officially supported Steamworks mod has to undergo serious testing prior to launch. Look at Dystopia, Age of Chivalry, Eternal Silence, and several others right around the time they first got into becoming official Steamworks. They had predicted dates, then it got delayed because stuff wasn't Steam approved (or another mod that was supposed to get launched with them didn't have their stuff together). And no duh there are non-steamworks mods.
His points were very level headed, and giving the nerd label makes you look like an ass.
Yes, they are overall very level headed. Except the ones where he attacks/counters things I already said weren't an issue (or at least big ones).
Also, ignoring someone's personal experience in favor of your own personal experience? Totally awesome.
The original topic I think has been thoroughly explored, and we all now know Steam is in the picture, for good or for worse. It's now crystal clear.
Cheers!
This thread caught my eye because of Steam. Personally, as someone else said on here, the good points of Steam outweigh the bad points more than enough for me to use and recommend Steam to people.
Sorry for my ignornat, correct me if I'm wrong, If i just burn the game files out of the installed Steam directory onto a DVD, is it possible to run game from the DVD??? I think that game on the DVD still requires steam cilent to start or sth, we cant just run it as if it's a offline version,right? is it possible to use this makeshift method to back up steam-powered game?? I dont think it's working. am i wrong?
I'm pretty sure Steam needs the resource files for the game in its own directory. The EXE would likely either crash, say Steam isn't running (regardless of whether it is or not), or if you had the game already installed in Steam, it would just load the resource files from its own directory. If it isn't installed but added to your account, it may even just start downloading the game or yell at you about missing files.