I'd like to point out the irony of the arguements revolving around "achievements = pointless, so why both?" from people who play video games. There are MANY people in the real world (one was my computer science university lecturer for example) who see no point in playing video games at all, they think they're stupid, a waste of time, and they don't understand what people get out of them other than silly cheap thrills. Yet you play games because you enjoy them, and as a gamer you can see why you enjoy and like those games, right?
The same applies to achievements. Some people just like doing achievements because alot of them are challenging - which is one of the reasons why we play video games in the first place, i.e. the challenge a game presents. So just because you dont like them or think they're silly, why try to spoil things for those who do? Imagine your uproar if video games were banned and blocked globally because those who dont like them got their way somehow.
Furthermore, it's quite sad how some who don't like achievements feel the need to exaggerate things in an attempt to portray achievements as "game wreckers". TF2 and L4D2 haven't been hurt at all by achievements, I play both games fanatically and there's never been a game ruined because someone is going for achievements. In most cases, good gamers tend to only go for achievements when they're up against lesser opposition, i.e. noobs, so it's not like it affects actual games where you need good teamwork. Players generally tend to try their best when it's a competitive game. So those saying achievements spoil games are only basing this on theory - the reality is totally different.
I hope UWE do themselves a favour and add achievements for those who like it instead of listening to a minority of whingers who'll basically ensure NS2 dies within a few years because its EXACTLY like NS1 (games have moved on since then, it'll get boring quickly unless it has a good wealth of options and gameplay modes). I personally couldn't care less about achievements, but I have a few gamer friends who like going for them, and it does add interesting challenges, so if it's in and done well, they'll probably get more joy out of NS than those of us who'll play purely for competitive action.
faulty logic is faulty. no one is denying anyone their cheap thrills, but know when and where to get them. I'm not going to stop you from smoking in your cigar club, but if you come to my smoke-free restaurant you'd better put it out. And if the question is put to the customers whether to create a smoking section, you can believe I'm going to be very vocal about it.
Oh and btw, I play neither of the games you listed "fanatically" and have already seen several games ruined by idiots attempting akimbo achievements or crowns or hats. so take off the rose-coloured goggles.
<!--quoteo(post=1769363:date=May 1 2010, 07:54 AM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ May 1 2010, 07:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Political election is a popularity contest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I feel obliged to quote this just for how salient of a summary this is.
So this thread was in the wrong forum to start, as it was belonged in Ideas and Suggestions. However it quickly veered completely from the original topic into a discussion that probably belonged here after-all.
There seemed to be an interesting discussion buried in the flames here, so instead of just locking it like I wanted to, I've tried to edit it into something presentable.
Please feel free to continue the discussion, but stop with presonal attacks and other b.s.
<!--quoteo(post=1769489:date=May 2 2010, 03:50 PM:name=JazzX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JazzX @ May 2 2010, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So this thread was in the wrong forum to start, as it was belonged in Ideas and Suggestions. However it quickly veered completely from the original topic into a discussion that probably belonged here after-all.
There seemed to be an interesting discussion buried in the flames here, so instead of just locking it like I wanted to, I've tried to edit it into something presentable.
Please feel free to continue the discussion, but stop with presonal attacks and other b.s.
Thanks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any word on my proposal for the "Legend of Hellabean" achievement idea?
<b>How'd I get to be so good?</b> - be top scorer as marines in a round <b>An outlet for my aggression...</b> - kill an enemy hive <b>Bloodlust</b> - kill 3 marines within 5 seconds as skulk <b>Walker fade</b> - kill 3 marines in a row as fade without blinking <b>Dedicated servant</b> - play 10 rounds as gorge
<!--quoteo(post=1769352:date=Apr 30 2010, 06:21 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Apr 30 2010, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or rather, those that concerned about achievements should be playing a modified version of NS2 (or different game entirely) that suites their tastes for shallow praise; that way teamplayers won't affect their mindless achievement hunting.
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->Counter-flame and counter-counter-flame removed. - JazzX<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> There is plenty to tie achievements to failure (not in the least as I listed) and what you define as a game failing may be some naive merit like sales or active players, but I'd rather see NS2 not fall prey to such shallow goals. Apathy and indifference towards achievements is particularly saddening because its exactly what has allowed increasingly more, and more silly, achievements to slip into games as norm. You cite the rambo as a common problem in NS, so why support even more reasons for solitary gameplay. It's a step back towards the problem, not progressing from it.
I'm going to just shutdown Renegade on this issue.
STEAM Achievments have increased sales for video games. This comes from the VALVE's statistics and spoken reports from them.
It can only hurt to not include them, if the game is going to be on STEAM(which it is).
The only concern, is to not put in stupid achievments(I think the NS2 DEVs and Charlie are competent and confident enough in their own ability to do this... I would hope).
An example of a stupid achievment is like kill 5 Kharaa with the Knife in a single life without switching weapons. Or grind achievments like play/use 1000 hours of a certain class/item.
*****
P.S. Don't bother arguing this, its their decision anyways. If you want to be productive then suggest useful achievements you would like to see, and those that you would not want to see. Then explain your reasons why.
End of story everyone?
*****
This game is not setup for unlocks that are used gameplay wise, so lets not discuss it. Cosmetic... all games are, and that should not bother anyone.
End of that discussion? (Like I said, you can only do good by giving ideas of what you would like to see and not see, theory crafting only goes so far.)
(And no, I'm not trying to come off as backseat moderating, sorry if I did.)
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited May 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1769896:date=May 5 2010, 03:32 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ May 5 2010, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm going to just shutdown Renegade on this issue ... P.S. Don't bother arguing this, its their decision anyways. If you want to be productive then suggest useful achievements you would like to see, and those that you would not want to see. Then explain your reasons why.
End of story everyone? ... End of that discussion? (Like I said, you can only do good by giving ideas of what you would like to see and not see, theory crafting only goes so far.)
(And no, I'm not trying to come off as backseat moderating, sorry if I did.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't even agree with Renegade, but your post's tone makes me want to. JazzX kept the thread unlocked because our discussion had some interesting points, aside from the flames. I don't think he wanted us to stop discussing, just to keep it civil. :P
On the actual content of your post, I agree achievements can help sale numbers and when done badly can be harmful. I also agree that UWE is competent enough and aware enough to not fall into that trap. Finally, of course everything is up to UWE to choose to implement or not. They're the ones developing it... but this is also a forum, and fans like to debate the changes and try their best to influence the choices UWE makes. This is not a bad thing because it means that the community is actively engaged with and passionate for the product the developers are producing.
<!--quoteo(post=1769896:date=May 5 2010, 11:32 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ May 5 2010, 11:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->P.S. Don't bother arguing this, its their decision anyways.
(Like I said, you can only do good by giving ideas of what you would like to see and not see, theory crafting only goes so far.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1769886:date=May 6 2010, 08:14 AM:name=slayer20)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (slayer20 @ May 6 2010, 08:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769886"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rhez, I don't think people will like those (except for maybe Dedicated Servant) because they don't really support team work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking more along the lines of the TF2 ones where they are things that could happen in game, but probably not before you've had a bit of practice.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1769920:date=May 5 2010, 08:53 PM:name=rhez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rhez @ May 5 2010, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1769920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was thinking more along the lines of the TF2 ones where they are things that could happen in game, but probably not before you've had a bit of practice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that ones that can happen through normal play are the good ones. Ones that happen on events that aren't too common or require you to be playing very well, but that would still be able to happen without you actually trying for it.
Ones that encourage/teach alternate play styles that are not detrimental to the team are also very good. TF2 has some of these types of achievements which help to teach people aspects of the game they might not otherwise learn. As an example, an achievement that would encourage someone to use the map to be able to see the overall flow of the game would be good. Not sure how exactly that would work though... Maybe having the map open a certain % of the time during a game, or opening the map after the commander pings an area so you can see what's there, or opening the map right before taking a phasegate into an area to defend it (implying you saw the danger on the map and are responding to it).
Comments
The same applies to achievements. Some people just like doing achievements because alot of them are challenging - which is one of the reasons why we play video games in the first place, i.e. the challenge a game presents. So just because you dont like them or think they're silly, why try to spoil things for those who do? Imagine your uproar if video games were banned and blocked globally because those who dont like them got their way somehow.
Furthermore, it's quite sad how some who don't like achievements feel the need to exaggerate things in an attempt to portray achievements as "game wreckers". TF2 and L4D2 haven't been hurt at all by achievements, I play both games fanatically and there's never been a game ruined because someone is going for achievements. In most cases, good gamers tend to only go for achievements when they're up against lesser opposition, i.e. noobs, so it's not like it affects actual games where you need good teamwork. Players generally tend to try their best when it's a competitive game. So those saying achievements spoil games are only basing this on theory - the reality is totally different.
I hope UWE do themselves a favour and add achievements for those who like it instead of listening to a minority of whingers who'll basically ensure NS2 dies within a few years because its EXACTLY like NS1 (games have moved on since then, it'll get boring quickly unless it has a good wealth of options and gameplay modes). I personally couldn't care less about achievements, but I have a few gamer friends who like going for them, and it does add interesting challenges, so if it's in and done well, they'll probably get more joy out of NS than those of us who'll play purely for competitive action.
Oh and btw, I play neither of the games you listed "fanatically" and have already seen several games ruined by idiots attempting akimbo achievements or crowns or hats. so take off the rose-coloured goggles.
Environmentalism is more of a religion than a cause for most people.
Achievements will not harm the game or the community of players.
All of these things are true. Lets move on now.
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->Don't flame people, even if it works into your bit. - JazzX<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I feel obliged to quote this just for how salient of a summary this is.
Please go on with the thread now.
There seemed to be an interesting discussion buried in the flames here, so instead of just locking it like I wanted to, I've tried to edit it into something presentable.
Please feel free to continue the discussion, but stop with presonal attacks and other b.s.
Thanks.
"Removed. - JazzX" - Wipe the entire alien team out of existence.
There seemed to be an interesting discussion buried in the flames here, so instead of just locking it like I wanted to, I've tried to edit it into something presentable.
Please feel free to continue the discussion, but stop with presonal attacks and other b.s.
Thanks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any word on my proposal for the "Legend of Hellabean" achievement idea?
<b>How'd I get to be so good?</b> - be top scorer as marines in a round
<b>An outlet for my aggression...</b> - kill an enemy hive
<b>Bloodlust</b> - kill 3 marines within 5 seconds as skulk
<b>Walker fade</b> - kill 3 marines in a row as fade without blinking
<b>Dedicated servant</b> - play 10 rounds as gorge
I don't even remember what I posted here!
My vote-
Achievements can be fun, and when they're not tied to unlockables I think they can have a net positive affect on a game due to added replayability.
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->Counter-flame and counter-counter-flame removed. - JazzX<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
There is plenty to tie achievements to failure (not in the least as I listed) and what you define as a game failing may be some naive merit like sales or active players, but I'd rather see NS2 not fall prey to such shallow goals. Apathy and indifference towards achievements is particularly saddening because its exactly what has allowed increasingly more, and more silly, achievements to slip into games as norm. You cite the rambo as a common problem in NS, so why support even more reasons for solitary gameplay. It's a step back towards the problem, not progressing from it.
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->And again. - JazzX<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to just shutdown Renegade on this issue.
STEAM Achievments have increased sales for video games. This comes from the VALVE's statistics and spoken reports from them.
It can only hurt to not include them, if the game is going to be on STEAM(which it is).
The only concern, is to not put in stupid achievments(I think the NS2 DEVs and Charlie are competent and confident enough in their own ability to do this... I would hope).
An example of a stupid achievment is like kill 5 Kharaa with the Knife in a single life without switching weapons. Or grind achievments like play/use 1000 hours of a certain class/item.
*****
P.S. Don't bother arguing this, its their decision anyways. If you want to be productive then suggest useful achievements you would like to see, and those that you would not want to see. Then explain your reasons why.
End of story everyone?
*****
This game is not setup for unlocks that are used gameplay wise, so lets not discuss it. Cosmetic... all games are, and that should not bother anyone.
End of that discussion? (Like I said, you can only do good by giving ideas of what you would like to see and not see, theory crafting only goes so far.)
(And no, I'm not trying to come off as backseat moderating, sorry if I did.)
...
P.S. Don't bother arguing this, its their decision anyways. If you want to be productive then suggest useful achievements you would like to see, and those that you would not want to see. Then explain your reasons why.
End of story everyone?
...
End of that discussion? (Like I said, you can only do good by giving ideas of what you would like to see and not see, theory crafting only goes so far.)
(And no, I'm not trying to come off as backseat moderating, sorry if I did.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't even agree with Renegade, but your post's tone makes me want to. JazzX kept the thread unlocked because our discussion had some interesting points, aside from the flames. I don't think he wanted us to stop discussing, just to keep it civil. :P
On the actual content of your post, I agree achievements can help sale numbers and when done badly can be harmful. I also agree that UWE is competent enough and aware enough to not fall into that trap. Finally, of course everything is up to UWE to choose to implement or not. They're the ones developing it... but this is also a forum, and fans like to debate the changes and try their best to influence the choices UWE makes. This is not a bad thing because it means that the community is actively engaged with and passionate for the product the developers are producing.
(Like I said, you can only do good by giving ideas of what you would like to see and not see, theory crafting only goes so far.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
contradiction much..
I was thinking more along the lines of the TF2 ones where they are things that could happen in game, but probably not before you've had a bit of practice.
I think that ones that can happen through normal play are the good ones. Ones that happen on events that aren't too common or require you to be playing very well, but that would still be able to happen without you actually trying for it.
Ones that encourage/teach alternate play styles that are not detrimental to the team are also very good. TF2 has some of these types of achievements which help to teach people aspects of the game they might not otherwise learn.
As an example, an achievement that would encourage someone to use the map to be able to see the overall flow of the game would be good. Not sure how exactly that would work though... Maybe having the map open a certain % of the time during a game, or opening the map after the commander pings an area so you can see what's there, or opening the map right before taking a phasegate into an area to defend it (implying you saw the danger on the map and are responding to it).
Get seven marines in your gas cloud. Four different times.
Domo Arigato from Mr. Weldboto
Defend weldbot three times in one game.