<!--quoteo(post=1757546:date=Mar 5 2010, 11:12 PM:name=Popenator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Popenator @ Mar 5 2010, 11:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I got a good one!
<b>Piss off Renegade:</b> Earn an achievement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now that's just asking to be abused. Besides, it's way too easy. Make it more challenging - try to create an achievement that cannot be shot down by Renegade.
<!--quoteo(post=1757551:date=Mar 5 2010, 10:51 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 5 2010, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now that's just asking to be abused. Besides, it's way too easy. Make it more challenging - try to create an achievement that cannot be shot down by Renegade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bullet Sponge: Take X amount of damage, where X is about 2-3 games worth of damage. Simple, easy to get, shows you've fought a few scrapes. If you get it really early, you might feel a little unachieved. =p
<!--quoteo(post=1757551:date=Mar 6 2010, 05:51 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 6 2010, 05:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now that's just asking to be abused. Besides, it's way too easy. Make it more challenging - try to create an achievement that cannot be shot down by Renegade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait, what about an achievement for making an achievement that cannot be shot down by Renegade?
Abuse that how? These forums are ripe with poor suggestions anyway? Did I win? What did I win? A Kiss?
(I'm largely with Renegade on the achievement issue btw. I just felt for a +1 post count.)
<!--quoteo(post=1757553:date=Mar 5 2010, 11:57 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Mar 5 2010, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bullet Sponge: Take X amount of damage, where X is about 2-3 games worth of damage. Simple, easy to get, shows you've fought a few scrapes. If you get it really early, you might feel a little unachieved. =p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We covered this one, but I'll humour it again: 1) expect to see teammates flinging themselves off edges then med -request spamming 2) expect to see teammates running out into spores and then med-request spamming There are many more ways to self-inflict damage, but you get the point.
Yes Private, I was thinking something along the same lines of a paradoxically recursive achievement: <i>Create an achievement that doesn't suck</i>
Achievements are by nature detremental to teamwork and the actual flow of the game because they encourage usually sub-natural actions repetively in order to get a reward.
Unless theres an achievement that says "listen to everything your com says, work well with your team, and play whatever role you're needed for at the given time," then I don't see it being beneficial.
<!--quoteo(post=1757561:date=Mar 5 2010, 11:43 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 5 2010, 11:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We covered this one, but I'll humour it again: 1) expect to see teammates flinging themselves off edges then med -request spamming 2) expect to see teammates running out into spores and then med-request spamming There are many more ways to self-inflict damage, but you get the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it won't be the case since it should be one of those "oh, you played a few games, enjoy your achievement" achievement. But yeah, I could see some idiots for their first game just injuring themselves to proc it in their first game.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Careful what you wish for.
Remember that BF2 introduced achievements *BUT* would only grant them on official servers. The reason was obvious, of course, to prevent people either rigging the gameplay or using server modifications to fake the results.
So the question becomes: Which would you prefer? A freely available dedicated server that encourages community gaming OR achievements on a more locked down server infrastructure.
Sorry for the loaded question, but I think you can see clearly which side I am on. I watched many community gaming sites try to run BF2 servers but fail and end up renting ranked servers from the very short supply of approved vendors.
Because you can't let J. Random Gamer run a server and then trust the achievement data from him. Especially with how open the engine will be via LUA.
<!--quoteo(post=1757528:date=Mar 5 2010, 10:08 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 5 2010, 10:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Didn't bother to read that all those tired and poorly thought-out examples have already been brought up and refuted in this and other current threads on the topic.
If you think it's going to work don't just put up some half-arsed list of flimsy achievements. Sit down, think them out, present why you think they will promote gameplay and not be abused.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My. You're such a happy camper, aren't you? I sure did bother to read the other suggestions, and I sure did think the ones I had were at least a step above the others. I read every word. I apologize that I cannot always fully flesh out my two cents on the situation. I apologize for my rather large waste of space, unworthy of reading even by Battle-bug or Focusedwolf.
I know that there are some rather foolish users on the board providing some, to put it lightly, <i>stupid</i> suggestions on here recently, but please have a little more tact...
<!--quoteo(post=1757605:date=Mar 6 2010, 05:30 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 6 2010, 05:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Careful what you wish for.
Remember that BF2 introduced achievements *BUT* would only grant them on official servers. The reason was obvious, of course, to prevent people either rigging the gameplay or using server modifications to fake the results.
So the question becomes: Which would you prefer? A freely available dedicated server that encourages community gaming OR achievements on a more locked down server infrastructure.
Sorry for the loaded question, but I think you can see clearly which side I am on. I watched many community gaming sites try to run BF2 servers but fail and end up renting ranked servers from the very short supply of approved vendors.
Because you can't let J. Random Gamer run a server and then trust the achievement data from him. Especially with how open the engine will be via LUA.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, thanks for being a little <i>nicer</i> than a few others out here.
And yes: you make a damn good point. I never really considered the modding issue and the LUA engine. It would probably take up many unneeded resources on Unknown Worlds just to work on the specific problems dealing with stat tracking...
<!--quoteo(post=1757580:date=Mar 6 2010, 08:04 AM:name=Popenator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Popenator @ Mar 6 2010, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know what else is detrimental to teamwork? The WASD and arrow keys. All player movement should be decided using boids and flock behavior.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really don't see whats so hard to understand here. What happened when medic achievements and update came out for tf2? teams were filled 90% with medics. Its a really simple equation.
<!--quoteo(post=1757568:date=Mar 6 2010, 04:12 AM:name=PSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PSA @ Mar 6 2010, 04:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Achievements are by nature detremental to teamwork and the actual flow of the game because they encourage usually sub-natural actions repetively in order to get a reward.
Unless theres an achievement that says "listen to everything your com says, work well with your team, and play whatever role you're needed for at the given time," then I don't see it being beneficial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that says it all, and UWE will probably go that way.
NS2's idea of teamplay is what makes me want to play it. The idea of being in a squad with other people going through dangerous places where we have to cover our backs- That's mainly why a play NS.
There is no viable logic nor is there proof behind the pissyfit arguments against achievements.
The link I provided is proof that <b>the VAST MAJORITY of those who own Team Fortress 2 do not give enough of a ###### about achievements to actively grind for them.</b>
Seeing as I've put in around 325 hours into actively playing the game it's also safe for me to say that the greater majority of those who actively play the game are drawn back to playing it because more achievements are added; do not really give a ###### whether or not they obtain all of them. The people who aren't good at the game are given reason to come back and play it for the sole reason that the achievements gave them a tiny sense of accomplishment.
I wouldn't mind seeing a system where, at the end of the round, the server awards players medals or achievements based on their performance that particular game... but this can be added in by any admin so no sweat there.
Persistant achievements are retarded though, and a waste of life. I remember people sucking horribly in L4D because they were trying to finish a map with only the pistols, and everyone would die because we'd be down a submachine gun.
<!--quoteo(post=1757810:date=Mar 7 2010, 10:10 AM:name=celewign)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (celewign @ Mar 7 2010, 10:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't mind seeing a system where, at the end of the round, the server awards players medals or achievements based on their performance that particular game... but this can be added in by any admin so no sweat there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, it's a nice system. NS1 implementation failed to promote the important gameplay aspects though. There was no award for the guy who parasites the most or bites the most res. Meanwhile it had a dozen spamming related awards.
Well, I dunno about you GUYS, but I've studied undergraduate psychology courses. And, I know that achievements are an excellent way to motivate people. So, I say, bring on the achievements in NS2.
I tend to get all the acheivements really quickly though in games - could NS2 possibly make the acheivements really hard to get - so I stay motivated for longer?
<!--quoteo(post=1757611:date=Mar 6 2010, 06:42 AM:name=Heyman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heyman @ Mar 6 2010, 06:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My. You're such a happy camper, aren't you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You acknowledge the posting quality of late around here. Tact expended in pointless re-iteration is not tact at all. Speaking of which...
<!--quoteo(post=1757824:date=Mar 7 2010, 04:59 AM:name=eye_em_kewl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eye_em_kewl @ Mar 7 2010, 04:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I dunno about you GUYS, but I've studied undergraduate psychology courses. And, I know that achievements are an excellent way to motivate people. So, I say, bring on the achievements in NS2. ... DISCUSS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for the segue on the third page of discussion, I don't know how ever we would have started without your profound opener. And while we're throwing egos around shall I also weigh-in with a minor in psychology?
Perhaps you'd do better to re-read your notes on behavior modification, and note that positive reward, even though the preferred motivator, does not compare to the much more powerful effects of negative reward as a deterrent. Specifically, the repeated negative reward an NS player will experience upon expecting a decent cohesive team battle but instead rewarded with a bunch of disconcerted lollygaggers mucking about so that they can have their reward.
Is impossible-due-to-non-existence hard enough for you?
<!--quoteo(post=1757848:date=Mar 7 2010, 09:32 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 7 2010, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You acknowledge the posting quality of late around here. Tact expended in pointless re-iteration is not tact at all. Speaking of which...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also acknowledge pointless venom dripping from your mouth instead of the usual drool.
As long as the achievement don't get in the way of competitive public rounds, I think it's a perfectly acceptable idea. I just don't want to see players twatting about on a server trying to get an achievement while the rest of the team busts their asses actually trying to win the round. We already have enough sources of frustration with people doing redundant things because they're lazy, arrogant or inexperienced. I don't want to see that kind of behaviour encouraged by an achievement system.
Looking at TF2 again, there are servers specifically for getting achievements for those who have the desire to accomplish every single one. If these servers are allowed in NS2 then those who really want achievements can use those servers without interfering with typical gameplay servers. Plus, if players are really out of hand there are methods of handling them through votekicks/bans and admins and the like. Sure, they aren't always effective, but looking at achievement stats for multiplayer games, the accomplishment percentages are low even for games released years ago with achievements.
I don't really care either way for achievements, They do spark an interest if there's a quirky one or two, like killing x amount of marines in one life using lerk spikes, but I don't go out of my way to accomplish them. Looking at MW2, there are XP rewards for winning x amount of games in certain game modes. Something like that would promote trying to win a match. TF2's class achievements unlock different weapons, which did distort the amounts of medics, pyros, etc trying to get achievements to unlock the weapons. Without an unlock, most achievements would probably go unnoticed besides the hardcore achievement hunters.
If we look at NS1 games, there are typically people who don't play with the team in mind regardless of achievements (hoarding res for onos, running off by themselves, begging for equipment, etc) so don't expect a lack of achievements to prevent all forms of not playing with the team in mind. It may very well keep that down, but not eradicate it completely.
The economic question is how many people will not end up buying the game because there are achievements + how many will demand a refund if they cannot find a serious play server without achievement hunters, and how many will buy the game if achievements are thrown in? While I have no hard evidence, I doubt many players would not buy the game due to achievements or demand a refund due to achievement hunters not playing with the team in mind. I also have no hard evidence for the other side as well, but I assume more copies would be sold to achievement hunters if achievements were implemented.
Whether achievements are implemented or not, that should not affect your desire to play if you are playing the game for the game. There will likely be servers with admins watching out for blatant achievement hunting if you really think achievement hunters will disrupt the game.
Please don't include any achievements. People stop playing logically and using teamwork.
If anything, employ achievements as an end-round stat, you can have team achievements (such as reaching the 3rd hive, or having all the res nodes captured at any given time) to having individual achievements (so and so had the most kills, or had the most deaths, etc.). But for gods sake, don't use steamworks achievements... or else you'll see achievement maps.
<!--quoteo(post=1767209:date=Apr 15 2010, 06:41 PM:name=Lemming Jesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lemming Jesus @ Apr 15 2010, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767209"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really don't care. It doesn't add anything to the game. It doesn't hurt it. Unless they start doing the stupid stuff like in TF2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its a guarantee.
although in bc2 i don't see that much achievement whoring other than trying to get a bronze with all weapons (which is good, it encourages weapons diversity).
<!--quoteo(post=1757791:date=Mar 7 2010, 12:02 AM:name=Popenator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Popenator @ Mar 7 2010, 12:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757791"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no viable logic nor is there proof behind the pissyfit arguments against achievements.
The link I provided is proof that <b>the VAST MAJORITY of those who own Team Fortress 2 do not give enough of a ###### about achievements to actively grind for them.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Team Fortress is a horrible way to try to make your "point". It has tons of silly stupid achievements that can only be earned by doing things for no other reason than the achievement.
No grinding? I take it you've never played on a server after a class update. NS needs normal achievements that can be earned through normal play and have no rewards, or none at all.
Comments
<b>Piss off Renegade:</b> Earn an achievement.
<b>Piss off Renegade:</b> Earn an achievement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that's just asking to be abused. Besides, it's way too easy. Make it more challenging - try to create an achievement that cannot be shot down by Renegade.
Bullet Sponge: Take X amount of damage, where X is about 2-3 games worth of damage. Simple, easy to get, shows you've fought a few scrapes. If you get it really early, you might feel a little unachieved. =p
Wait, what about an achievement for making an achievement that cannot be shot down by Renegade?
Abuse that how? These forums are ripe with poor suggestions anyway? Did I win? What did I win? A Kiss?
(I'm largely with Renegade on the achievement issue btw. I just felt for a +1 post count.)
We covered this one, but I'll humour it again:
1) expect to see teammates flinging themselves off edges then med -request spamming
2) expect to see teammates running out into spores and then med-request spamming
There are many more ways to self-inflict damage, but you get the point.
Yes Private, I was thinking something along the same lines of a paradoxically recursive achievement:
<i>Create an achievement that doesn't suck</i>
Unless theres an achievement that says "listen to everything your com says, work well with your team, and play whatever role you're needed for at the given time," then I don't see it being beneficial.
1) expect to see teammates flinging themselves off edges then med -request spamming
2) expect to see teammates running out into spores and then med-request spamming
There are many more ways to self-inflict damage, but you get the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it won't be the case since it should be one of those "oh, you played a few games, enjoy your achievement" achievement. But yeah, I could see some idiots for their first game just injuring themselves to proc it in their first game.
Remember that BF2 introduced achievements *BUT* would only grant them on official servers. The reason was obvious, of course, to prevent people either rigging the gameplay or using server modifications to fake the results.
So the question becomes: Which would you prefer? A freely available dedicated server that encourages community gaming OR achievements on a more locked down server infrastructure.
Sorry for the loaded question, but I think you can see clearly which side I am on.
I watched many community gaming sites try to run BF2 servers but fail and end up renting ranked servers from the very short supply of approved vendors.
Because you can't let J. Random Gamer run a server and then trust the achievement data from him. Especially with how open the engine will be via LUA.
If you think it's going to work don't just put up some half-arsed list of flimsy achievements. Sit down, think them out, present why you think they will promote gameplay and not be abused.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My. You're such a happy camper, aren't you? I sure did bother to read the other suggestions, and I sure did think the ones I had were at least a step above the others. I read every word. I apologize that I cannot always fully flesh out my two cents on the situation. I apologize for my rather large waste of space, unworthy of reading even by Battle-bug or Focusedwolf.
I know that there are some rather foolish users on the board providing some, to put it lightly, <i>stupid</i> suggestions on here recently, but please have a little more tact...
<!--quoteo(post=1757605:date=Mar 6 2010, 05:30 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 6 2010, 05:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Careful what you wish for.
Remember that BF2 introduced achievements *BUT* would only grant them on official servers. The reason was obvious, of course, to prevent people either rigging the gameplay or using server modifications to fake the results.
So the question becomes: Which would you prefer? A freely available dedicated server that encourages community gaming OR achievements on a more locked down server infrastructure.
Sorry for the loaded question, but I think you can see clearly which side I am on.
I watched many community gaming sites try to run BF2 servers but fail and end up renting ranked servers from the very short supply of approved vendors.
Because you can't let J. Random Gamer run a server and then trust the achievement data from him. Especially with how open the engine will be via LUA.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, thanks for being a little <i>nicer</i> than a few others out here.
And yes: you make a damn good point. I never really considered the modding issue and the LUA engine.
It would probably take up many unneeded resources on Unknown Worlds just to work on the specific problems dealing with stat tracking...
I really don't see whats so hard to understand here. What happened when medic achievements and update came out for tf2? teams were filled 90% with medics. Its a really simple equation.
Unless theres an achievement that says "listen to everything your com says, work well with your team, and play whatever role you're needed for at the given time," then I don't see it being beneficial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that says it all, and UWE will probably go that way.
NS2's idea of teamplay is what makes me want to play it. The idea of being in a squad with other people going through dangerous places where we have to cover our backs- That's mainly why a play NS.
dropping links without explanation doesn't do much for your case. Are you still not understanding the logic behind this?
The link I provided is proof that <b>the VAST MAJORITY of those who own Team Fortress 2 do not give enough of a ###### about achievements to actively grind for them.</b>
Seeing as I've put in around 325 hours into actively playing the game it's also safe for me to say that the greater majority of those who actively play the game are drawn back to playing it because more achievements are added; do not really give a ###### whether or not they obtain all of them. The people who aren't good at the game are given reason to come back and play it for the sole reason that the achievements gave them a tiny sense of accomplishment.
Persistant achievements are retarded though, and a waste of life. I remember people sucking horribly in L4D because they were trying to finish a map with only the pistols, and everyone would die because we'd be down a submachine gun.
9_9
Yeah, it's a nice system. NS1 implementation failed to promote the important gameplay aspects though. There was no award for the guy who parasites the most or bites the most res. Meanwhile it had a dozen spamming related awards.
I tend to get all the acheivements really quickly though in games - could NS2 possibly make the acheivements really hard to get - so I stay motivated for longer?
DISCUSS
You acknowledge the posting quality of late around here. Tact expended in pointless re-iteration is not tact at all.
Speaking of which...
<!--quoteo(post=1757824:date=Mar 7 2010, 04:59 AM:name=eye_em_kewl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eye_em_kewl @ Mar 7 2010, 04:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I dunno about you GUYS, but I've studied undergraduate psychology courses. And, I know that achievements are an excellent way to motivate people. So, I say, bring on the achievements in NS2.
...
DISCUSS<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the segue on the third page of discussion, I don't know how ever we would have started without your profound opener. And while we're throwing egos around shall I also weigh-in with a minor in psychology?
Perhaps you'd do better to re-read your notes on behavior modification, and note that positive reward, even though the preferred motivator, does not compare to the much more powerful effects of negative reward as a deterrent. Specifically, the repeated negative reward an NS player will experience upon expecting a decent cohesive team battle but instead rewarded with a bunch of disconcerted lollygaggers mucking about so that they can have their reward.
Is impossible-due-to-non-existence hard enough for you?
Speaking of which...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also acknowledge pointless venom dripping from your mouth instead of the usual drool.
I don't really care either way for achievements, They do spark an interest if there's a quirky one or two, like killing x amount of marines in one life using lerk spikes, but I don't go out of my way to accomplish them. Looking at MW2, there are XP rewards for winning x amount of games in certain game modes. Something like that would promote trying to win a match. TF2's class achievements unlock different weapons, which did distort the amounts of medics, pyros, etc trying to get achievements to unlock the weapons. Without an unlock, most achievements would probably go unnoticed besides the hardcore achievement hunters.
If we look at NS1 games, there are typically people who don't play with the team in mind regardless of achievements (hoarding res for onos, running off by themselves, begging for equipment, etc) so don't expect a lack of achievements to prevent all forms of not playing with the team in mind. It may very well keep that down, but not eradicate it completely.
The economic question is how many people will not end up buying the game because there are achievements + how many will demand a refund if they cannot find a serious play server without achievement hunters, and how many will buy the game if achievements are thrown in? While I have no hard evidence, I doubt many players would not buy the game due to achievements or demand a refund due to achievement hunters not playing with the team in mind. I also have no hard evidence for the other side as well, but I assume more copies would be sold to achievement hunters if achievements were implemented.
Whether achievements are implemented or not, that should not affect your desire to play if you are playing the game for the game. There will likely be servers with admins watching out for blatant achievement hunting if you really think achievement hunters will disrupt the game.
If anything, employ achievements as an end-round stat, you can have team achievements (such as reaching the 3rd hive, or having all the res nodes captured at any given time) to having individual achievements (so and so had the most kills, or had the most deaths, etc.). But for gods sake, don't use steamworks achievements... or else you'll see achievement maps.
its a guarantee.
although in bc2 i don't see that much achievement whoring other than trying to get a bronze with all weapons (which is good, it encourages weapons diversity).
The link I provided is proof that <b>the VAST MAJORITY of those who own Team Fortress 2 do not give enough of a ###### about achievements to actively grind for them.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Team Fortress is a horrible way to try to make your "point". It has tons of silly stupid achievements that can only be earned by doing things for no other reason than the achievement.
No grinding? I take it you've never played on a server after a class update. NS needs normal achievements that can be earned through normal play and have no rewards, or none at all.