What we can do with the engine test
Forgive me if this was written before, if it was I didn't notice.
Basically, the idea for this thread is to:
1) Speculate on how we can mod the current engine test to the limits
2) Give some bored Lua programmers some ideas ;)
An idea I recently had was to make AI enemies, as in real shooting ones. I'm pretty sure the marine model is in the engine, not sure about 3rd person animations. I'd actually try to do a simple version of bot deathmatch myself, if not for the fact that it would take a lot of time which I, sadly, don't have atm. Right now the furthest I got was trying to change the bullet count just to find out that it's not allowed (probably gotta find the var in Lua somewhere and set it to int or w/e but as I said, no time) XD
Now don't get me wrong! It's not a 'please make me a mod' thread. It's a thread to speculate on what could be done with the engine test. And if someone wants to use an idea from here, he should go right ahead :P
Basically, the idea for this thread is to:
1) Speculate on how we can mod the current engine test to the limits
2) Give some bored Lua programmers some ideas ;)
An idea I recently had was to make AI enemies, as in real shooting ones. I'm pretty sure the marine model is in the engine, not sure about 3rd person animations. I'd actually try to do a simple version of bot deathmatch myself, if not for the fact that it would take a lot of time which I, sadly, don't have atm. Right now the furthest I got was trying to change the bullet count just to find out that it's not allowed (probably gotta find the var in Lua somewhere and set it to int or w/e but as I said, no time) XD
Now don't get me wrong! It's not a 'please make me a mod' thread. It's a thread to speculate on what could be done with the engine test. And if someone wants to use an idea from here, he should go right ahead :P
Comments
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=109276&st=0&start=0" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t=0&start=0</a>
To be honest, I'm not sure what the limits of the engine test are, but I imagine some of the modding goals would be:
1) Make a easily accessible server browser.
2) Make a special game mode using available models, animations, and sounds.
3) Chat system and scoreboard.
4) Working bindable keys for different functions.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=109276&st=0&start=0" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t=0&start=0</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is also a thread of mini-mod brainstorming here:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=109306" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=109306</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1766597:date=Apr 13 2010, 01:20 PM:name=aeroripper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aeroripper @ Apr 13 2010, 01:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest, I'm not sure what the limits of the engine test are, but I imagine some of the modding goals would be:
1) Make a easily accessible server browser.
2) Make a special game mode using available models, animations, and sounds.
3) Chat system and scoreboard.
4) Working bindable keys for different functions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) I think somebody mentioned that the engine doesn't currently support sockets or something needed to make server browsing work correctly
2) I'd like to figure this out... creating a different game mode... for example, when you create server, it has a "mode" option, that defaults to "Practice"... It would be great to figure out how to create a new mode and load a totally different set of lua assets rather than simply replacing all the current lua files
3) I think the main modding group you mentioned is working on that currently.
4) Do you mean fixing the "Options" in the main menu so you can actually change keybindings, or do you mean adding completely new bindings for various functions?
We're actually working on making our own lua.dll with sockets and file io enabled. So we might actually have a server browser pretty soon!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) I think the main modding group you mentioned is working on that currently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well we've already got chat. I know someone was working on a scoreboard but I don't know where we are with that.
@aeroripper:
That's fine, my thread is about something a tad different than the one you mentioned.
@DixieWolf:
...Now that one's a bit more like mine XD But still, I want to talk about the extremes (as in what a total conversion is to a full game) of modding so maybe it's not yet the time for admins to bring out the banhammers and stuff for me not reading the topics correctly ^^
Seeing as AFAIK it's possible to export models in-engine, is exporting animations also supported? And would it be possible to use those models in the engine test? Knowing that would certainly help in the discussion.
Yes, all of the tools that we use are in the engine test release except for the cinematic editor (needed to make particle effects).
yay!!!! *flails arms in the air*
Sounds good to me lol
who knows, there might even be other mods not ns2 related before ns2 is made.
Some more player/gun models would be nice too. Come on, we all already paid for it :P
Some more player/gun models would be nice too. Come on, we all already paid for it :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have a working server browser :P. Its a workaround ofcourse and we would rather have it directly from the engine ofc but for now this will do.
EDIT:
Oh, wait. Theoretically, it's possible to export from within there. It's just the exporter that hate's XSI's collada files...
...Now that one's a bit more like mine XD But still, I want to talk about the extremes (as in what a total conversion is to a full game) of modding so maybe it's not yet the time for admins to bring out the banhammers and stuff for me not reading the topics correctly ^^<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought about a total conversion but I haven't had any solid ideas for a setting or really any super sweet gameplay mechanics. Right now I have something hacked together with thirdperson over-the-shoulder cam, and I'm working on crouching, sprinting, and hopefully vaulting over objects/taking cover behind them. But I have no idea where to take it other than that.
If somebody has a neat idea, I'd love to drop my tinkering and help out with it
But IMO the best idea right now (to utilize third person) would be to make a puzzle platformer. Since we can export our own models, we can make it look however we want and use the engine's great level editor to make some neat maps. Only problem that would need solving is the interactivity of puzzles (since I don't think we have any trigger brushes in the editor yet).
something a bit like Prince of Persia, maybe? If spark had some way to link an entity to a face, we could rig up a "trigger" using a transparent face and a custom entity. But i'm preeeetty sure that functionality doesn't exist right now
Just putting it out there - if you were to make such a game, I'd be willing to provide some 3D models :)
Just putting it out there - if you were to make such a game, I'd be willing to provide some 3D models :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shoot, I'd be in to at least try, but I dunno if I'll have an abundance of free time. But hey, if you wanna give it a shot, I'm up for some programming, and possibly modelling/animating a little. I'm not a super confident modeler, but I've worked with both Maya 2009 and Blender in the past. What model programs/formats does spark support ATM?
But it's the programming that's going to be the biggest problem. You'd pretty much have to write a game from scratch, complete with triggers and everything.
But it's the programming that's going to be the biggest problem. You'd pretty much have to write a game from scratch, complete with triggers and everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And ain't that the biggest issue for any mod....
so they could do the hard stuff for us
If somebody has a neat idea, I'd love to drop my tinkering and help out with it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest I have been waiting a long time for the editor to come out because I have been wanting to make a total conversion Mod.
Anyways as part of a larger mod that I want to do, I have been thinking about many ideas that play around with is ship to ship combat.
In which there are two ships complete with destroyable subsystems. The two ships send squads to destroy the other's subsystems.
Destroying things like communications would slow that teams respawn ability.
Destroying environmental controls would cause lights to go out...possibily causing friendly-fire due to the darkness.
Destroying life support cause plays to find a breather which when taking damage could break like in metro 2033. (My least favorite feature and subject to change)
Destroying supplementary areas like thearmory and Med-bay would cause the inability for ammo resupply and healing respectively. (Maybe when destroyed that team would lack on respawn extra weapon choices and health items)
Destroying the ships core would cause doors to unlock or something haven't really figured this one out.
You win by destroying the bridge.
Each team has limited number of lives that is shared by the group to make things interesting and played from a 3rd person mass effect like perspective.
When I conceptualized this I was thinking smallish map sizes with tightish choke points.
What do you guys think of this? I do think it is doable with limited number of triggers (excluding life support one which might not be that fun anyways)
and no real need for lots of of different weapons which is currently perfect considering only the rifle has been released.
Or a simple DM would also make me happy.
yup. but that's what makes it fun :D I had already thought about stripping down some of the classes to fiddle around and not have some of the quirks from 'mix & match' code. I will admit though - there are a few things that are a little over my head, at the moment, but a lot of that is because I haven't had the time to dig through everything yet
<!--quoteo(post=1767461:date=Apr 16 2010, 08:49 PM:name=Nordom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nordom @ Apr 16 2010, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest I have been waiting a long time for the editor to come out because I have been wanting to make a total conversion Mod.
Anyways as part of a larger mod that I want to do, I have been thinking about many ideas that play around with is ship to ship combat.
In which there are two ships complete with destroyable subsystems. The two ships send squads to destroy the other's subsystems.
Destroying things like communications would slow that teams respawn ability.
Destroying environmental controls would cause lights to go out...possibily causing friendly-fire due to the darkness.
Destroying life support cause plays to find a breather which when taking damage could break like in metro 2033. (My least favorite feature and subject to change)
Destroying supplementary areas like thearmory and Med-bay would cause the inability for ammo resupply and healing respectively. (Maybe when destroyed that team would lack on respawn extra weapon choices and health items)
Destroying the ships core would cause doors to unlock or something haven't really figured this one out.
You win by destroying the bridge.
Each team has limited number of lives that is shared by the group to make things interesting and played from a 3rd person mass effect like perspective.
When I conceptualized this I was thinking smallish map sizes with tightish choke points.
What do you guys think of this? I do think it is doable with limited number of triggers (excluding life support one which might not be that fun anyways)
and no real need for lots of of different weapons which is currently perfect considering only the rifle has been released.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you ever heard of the Half-Life 2 mod "Eternal Silence"? That's what this idea reminded me of a little bit; the "you're running around inside the enemy ship, blowing stuff up". ES also had space fighter combat too, but you get the idea. I feel like this one sounds cool, but i also feel like it's hella ambitious. But doable. I think the life support/environmental systems could actually be neat too.. to be honest, when i read about that, my first thought was "ooohhh.. it'd be cool if you could blast a hole in the ship and depressurize it, so you could do a little zero-g combat, and the sound would be all muffled, so it'd be crazy confusing and awesome", but that feels maybe a little less doable at the moment.
I have played "Eternal Silence" and actually it is the exact opposite of what I want to make. That is too much a shooter on every level. I am far more interested in a creating a starship that just happens to have battles on it. Mass effect did a wonderful job of creating a living breathing space ship, I am interested in recreating that in a shooter if that is even possible.
I have also played "Shattered Horizons" and loved that 3d space combat, but to put anything like that into a shooter it should be the key aspect since it would be an epic task in itself to pull it off. The biggest problem with SH was that it was fun, but since we lack 2 extra hands moving in 3d space was kind of clunky and subject to getting shot in the back because fire comes every direction. It is far easier to make a shooter that is simply re-skinned and has moment controls tweak so it appears like your in space/underwater/on a planet/etc. than it is to make a real shooter like SH that actually simulates space. In my mod I plan on doing the re-skinning cheat too =)
I also have thought about the idea of a fire fight going on in a hallway and the corridor's windows get hit a few times and eventually breaks sucking out everyone with it. Sounds like fun, but from a coding aspect a time consuming gimmick, so I have been keeping it to myself. ;)
When I mentioned Ship to ship combat before, I did not mean any actual space combat with ships. What I meant was that there were 2 ships somehow tethered together or more interestingly they shoot assault pods at each other and those pods would pierce the armor into Hallway A or Hallway B where troops would spawn. Basically it would look cool, but in reality you would spawn from a point with a static pod behind you.
All combat would be done by a bunch of space marines trying to blow up the others ship.
<!--quoteo(post=1767503:date=Apr 17 2010, 09:01 AM:name=Ich 666)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ich 666 @ Apr 17 2010, 09:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Destroying Environmental Controls should make the level switch to Emergency lights, so you can still see your mates without a flashlight but skulks now have the advantage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice idea Ich, so say first if the Environmental Controls go down Emergency lighting, when the Core goes down, No lights? Or maybe if you destroy AUX Power and the core? LOL turn into a flashlight party =D Sounds like fun since very few games actually mess with total blackness.
I am still working on my website, but I have a very large idea for a total conversion, and in comparison my proposed ship to ship combat is just a small section, albeit an in portent section from it. But big things a made by putting it together one piece at a time, so I am very interested in actually doing this mod. Let me know what you guys think of it, and if you our really interested in helping with it please let me know.
What I'd do instead is start with something small and simple, like a platformer. Then, when everyone in the team gains enough experience, start doing the more advanced ideas.
;)
I'd be interested in at least trying to get a conceptual version running. I have a quick mod with 3rd person over the shoulder, and I've added some simple framework for joining teams, including a spectator, which can fly around the map. I'll be playing with some other concepts like triggered events (i.e- you destroy this object, and this result happens; the sort of thing you would need for your idea of systematically destroying sections of the enemy ship) sometime soon-ish. If you have any other ideas/suggestions for this, definitely let me know. I think once i get basic team dynamics (selection, spawning, turning off/on friendly fire), I'll want to work on some features for the combat, such as sprinting, crouching, using cover, etc. Quick question... when you were envisioning this, obviously, each team will need some people on defense on their own ship, and some people on offense on the enemy ship. How would that be selected? Do you think players should be able to choose whether they are on a defense squad of offense squad? Or do you think the game should balance it and split the number of players on a team between offense/defense?
<!--quoteo(post=1767566:date=Apr 17 2010, 12:39 PM:name=dandi8)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dandi8 @ Apr 17 2010, 12:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nordom, I wouldn't be doing a mod this big on a pre-alpha piece of software if I were you. Well, not unless you have at least a few years of experience in modding (and I mean completed mods) and a whole (experienced) team behind you.
What I'd do instead is start with something small and simple, like a platformer. Then, when everyone in the team gains enough experience, start doing the more advanced ideas.
;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm also down for messing with a platformer too. Like I said, i'm am a liiittle busy at the moment, but I think for some proof-of-concept work (this is still a pre-alpha, so anything we do will likely be broken by the time the game actually is out), I can make time to work with both of these ideas. Do you have any other thoughts/ideas about features for this platformer?
But for now I'm just focused on learning the API and making some small prototypes
had one day off last weekend and work has been keeping me busy.
<!--quoteo(post=1767664:date=Apr 18 2010, 05:47 AM:name=DixieWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DixieWolf @ Apr 18 2010, 05:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd be interested in at least trying to get a conceptual version running. I have a quick mod with 3rd person over the shoulder, and I've added some simple framework for joining teams, including a spectator, which can fly around the map. I'll be playing with some other concepts like triggered events (i.e- you destroy this object, and this result happens; the sort of thing you would need for your idea of systematically destroying sections of the enemy ship) sometime soon-ish. If you have any other ideas/suggestions for this, definitely let me know. I think once i get basic team dynamics (selection, spawning, turning off/on friendly fire), I'll want to work on some features for the combat, such as sprinting, crouching, using cover, etc. Quick question... when you were envisioning this, obviously, each team will need some people on defense on their own ship, and some people on offense on the enemy ship. How would that be selected? Do you think players should be able to choose whether they are on a defense squad of offense squad? Or do you think the game should balance it and split the number of players on a team between offense/defense?
I'm also down for messing with a platformer too. Like I said, i'm am a liiittle busy at the moment, but I think for some proof-of-concept work (this is still a pre-alpha, so anything we do will likely be broken by the time the game actually is out), I can make time to work with both of these ideas. Do you have any other thoughts/ideas about features for this platformer?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My mod idea like I said before is just a paired down version of a larger idea. My big idea was that too many games these days either use massive ships that you cannot use like in space sims or little ships that you can control like mass effect. I want players to feel like captains/commanders while commanding massive ships from frigates/cruiser and larger rather than keeping you in a puny fighters like most space sims.
So imagine if your will if your commanding a like cruiser. You manage things such as: where you go and what you do, your crew and supplies for your ship. Being a space game you naturaly get into some space battle. The first part of combat would be something akin to star trek, where you make command decisions to launch fighters and to attack desired areas of the enemy ship. It would play out in a somewhat turn based fashion where you issue commands and watch the results (Probably in a simple 2D real time) and then issue new ones. The ultimate goal is to disable the enemy's weapons and engines, so you can launch your assault teams to plunder the enemy ship or possibily destroy it if your crazy enough to launch your assault teams before destroying the enemies defenses.
In a very rudimentary way you would issue orders to your squads to defend X or attack Y and then lead your own squad to either defend or attack depending on which you choose all the while backed by a squad of Ai buddies.In other words I have designed for a very single player experience.
I do understand my envisioned idea is very ambitious for a mod, and that typically what total conversions try to do. However, being pre-alpha and the engine is still far from complete, my current ambition has only been to create a rough conceptualization like DixieWolf said. Hence why I want to make a very simple TDM where the goal is to destory/defend simple triggers.
Anyways, back to DixieWolf's original question. I have though about the assault/defend problem at length and I am a bit perplexed. If you create roles such as assault and defense invariably people will flock to one, leaving the defense or assault team lacking even if you put in an auto balance.
I like the idea having two different classes which clearly define the players role. It would also encourage players to work together with others in the same class.
But the the idea of stacked classes sounds rather crappy for people get stuck in their unwanted class.
To counter this you could rotate assault and defense classes or put a lottery/que system in to rotate to the class you want. However, a system like this would take a lot of extra work. If you took the easy route and ignored this issue then you will lose players since no one wants to play a game where they are forced to do what they don't want to do.
Alternatively, you could just not have classes. I feel in this instance, people would either turtle or only push leading to unblanced matches. Worse yet people would designate themselves as a unwanted defender or assaulter state because their team sucks so they have to become what they don't want to be in order prevent from loosing.
I have recently been toying with the idea of taking turns for assaults and defense. Assaulting side can choose to spawn a couple sites at the enemy ship. For example sites A and B spawn every 30 seconds and site C every 2min 30 sec. Sites A and B are relatively close together while C would be on the far side of the ship.
To spawn at the designated spots there would be something like a waiting box and everyone in the box at the designated time would teleport to the corresponding point.If possible, once the teleport time reached zero it would stay charged until people in the spawn box hit the teleport button, thus adding some strategy at to which point to hit. It is possible to not have a counter for the teleport. But I think teleporting as group sounds a lot more fun.
After a certain amount of time has passed or possibly enough communal assault lives spent, the other team would be able to assult.
The round would end when the enemy ship is destroyed and the winners would thus be the first defenders.
I would love to hear input on my proposed turn assault system.
About the platformer What about skulk races? You ride your skulk around a track avoiding pits and things like gorges that are in the way all the trying to hit super charge areas to give your skulk rider a quick speed boost? Or did you have a different style of platformer in mind?
<!--quoteo(post=1767709:date=Apr 18 2010, 04:35 PM:name=monopolowa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (monopolowa @ Apr 18 2010, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I eventually want to make a 1st/3rd person DOTA-style game that also makes use of commander mode's interface (IE players can log in to a command chair at the base and purchase map upgrades or cast support spells. They also go to the chair when they die, until the respawn timer counts down)
But for now I'm just focused on learning the API and making some small prototypes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am intrigued by your DOTA idea. I am actually a huge fan of League of Legends. :)
How do you plan game play mechanics to play out in a scifi setting?
Considering all DOTA and DOTA clones are viewed from a top down isometric view, how do you propose your invisioned DOTA to play out?
In the mean time I will start by penning down ship map designs when I got a free moment.I will scan and post them when I get a chance.
How do you plan game play mechanics to play out in a scifi setting?
Considering all DOTA and DOTA clones are viewed from a top down isometric view, how do you propose your invisioned DOTA to play out?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually started a design document for this idea a few months ago. I really like the style of battles/skill use/etc. in DOTA and its clones, but I was never a huge fan of the top down control scheme. A first or third (probably third is best) person view would allow for much tighter control over your own character.
The mechanics themselves would be similar to the other games, in that you have a "free" attack, and 3 or 4 skills that you level up. There would still be roles each class could fill (tank, carry, support, etc.) and an inventory system with equipment purchases and upgrades. The map would have a fairly similar layout to the other games' as well, generally single-level, with 2-4 large lanes and many connections between them.
One of the major differences for this mod would be the use of commander view. Any player could log in to a command seat in their base at any time, and use it to scout the map, purchase map upgrades (extra waves of creeps, more damage from guard towers, phase gates, observatories, etc.) and whenever a player dies, he would go to command mode while his body is rebuilt (this would take extra time based on level, as in the other games).
While any character can use the chair, some classes would be more commander-oriented, and have skills that assist in the chair rather than in combat (such as producing extra units for free or taking direct control over one or several creeps. I have a specific idea for a commander hero who's only combat skill is a suicide attack. Then, right back to the chair :P )
Anyway, I don't want to take over the thread (or write a book) so I think I'll stop here for now.