I hope the engine test will give me more ideas on how to flesh out my map. I have a big problem with scale when I can't walk around and see it personally.
IeptBarakat, don't make your rooms cubic. Walls will look blank if they are simple straight up. Example from my fast concept of alien spawn: <img src="http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5486/nseuclideanalienstart.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
As this is alien spawn, but I believe floor shouldn't never be flat from wall to wall. Add some diversity.
EDIT: Try first think some name for your room (like ventilation, pipeline etc.) then try make it look like it with minimum props. Atleast this is my way at the moment as we don't can't test these rooms.
Is this a MS/AS? since you got both a tech point and res node (a little small for an MS and a little too open for an AS I'd say)? And it looks kinda weird with the tech point being placed right in front of that door, seems unpractical. Imo, the lighting ain't that bad and the room is interesting, not sure what you could do with the middle, but like you said, it might be missing something.
Looks fine to me. Emptiness has its merits. Maybe throw some crates in on the side for cover, unless it's a starting area (which it probably isn't).
If you had to think about something, think about how you could make the room defendable for both aliens and marines. The aliens don't look like they'll do so well in open confrontation. Do something to the room so melee defenders could stand a better chance against marines with guns. Maybe give skulks a way to sneak behind the entrances from the room without revealing what they're doing.
slayer20Killed a man once.Join Date: 2007-12-13Member: 63157Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1762844:date=Apr 5 2010, 04:57 PM:name=Abra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Abra @ Apr 5 2010, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762844"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are those supports over the terminals/machines ? Is some of the weight of the roof put on top of the terminals?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If so, then those are part of the model, and I'll probably end up putting small advertisement signs right there. Not like real advertisements, just some fake ones for to go with the theme of the map.
Don't really know what to do with the middle part :\ The lighting is really bland and the walls are... plain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, the walls look fine! Too many screenshots I'm seeing in this thread are plagued with overuse of props. Look at the official NS2 maps. Props are used strategically, they aren't just jammed into every possible space in the map.
Don't really know what to do with the middle part :\ The lighting is really bland and the walls are... plain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would suggest to put some computer technology over there. A terminal of some sort. With a little less lighning and more bleu lighthing. to give atmosphere and depth of feeling... but perhaps I'm just drunk ;-)...
It is a Marine Spawn and it may look a little cramped, but we'll see when we get to test it in the real game (the marines will spawn on the back of the room, the part with the ramps).
The door on the back really has a stupid placement and I'm aware of it, but I had to break up the wall, I could've put a bunch of terminals, but the door was easier. You can maybe think it's a backup power source or whatever, nanites, I've done stupidier things in my NS1 stuff!
The pipe on ceiling is obviously a "deformed" pipe, I was mimicking something in a concept art, it was a curved surface so I used a pipe. The problem is that the pipe prop is easy to recognize, I guess, don't know what to do with this.
So, here is what I broke up the walls with (I may do something with the lighting later):
<img src="http://www.mendasp.net/stuff/wip/ns2_mendasp_room5-wip11-3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> There's no trim on the open panel, but since this is the "testing" part and I haven't recorded the video yet...
I think I may have to start a thread, but I don't have a name for this map yet...
Just have to spice up the ceiling and floor and it should be pretty much done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can give you a tip when it comes to designing corridors from a game play perspective. Don't clutter the area with unneeded bits and bobs because it is hard enough as it is to dodge a skulk without stuff to kick into. Remove the benches and replace them with a floor design that you are able to stand on. This will still detail the area but also gives full unrestricted movement in the corridor which is what is needed for alien and marine.
Also crates to provide cover is a lazy mans way of making map amendments. Some people think that it is good to have crates and boxes to hide behind in the middle of a corridor but they are mistaken. They are more of a hindrance that a benefit. If you need crates to give the aliens cover from marine fire, your map is designed badly and you need to redo that section so the aliens can get cover a different way, for example wall ceiling or floor designs.
<!--quoteo(post=1762916:date=Apr 6 2010, 01:09 PM:name=Standard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Standard @ Apr 6 2010, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762916"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can give you a tip when it comes to designing corridors from a game play perspective. Don't clutter the area with unneeded bits and bobs because it is hard enough as it is to dodge a skulk without stuff to kick into. Remove the benches and replace them with a floor design that you are able to stand on. This will still detail the area but also gives full unrestricted movement in the corridor which is what is needed for alien and marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been thinking about this as well. Really want to integrate benches etc. to make maps feel more like there are actual people living there, but then again, it's can be damn annoying gameplay-wise. Best attempt to place them a little out of the way I suppose.
I threw these up on my blog (<a href="http://mapprogression.tumblr.com" target="_blank">Map Progression Blog</a>), but since it's been awhile and isn't many screens, I thought i'd throw them here as well for some feedback. This is a secondary route hallway that will be weldable shut. It connects the marine start, and you can see the transition through the pics at my blog if you're curious how it does.
<!--quoteo(post=1762997:date=Apr 6 2010, 06:01 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Apr 6 2010, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1762997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know they were killed by aliens n' all. But they really need to pick up the place ;D. (keep it as is)
Onos would probably have tough time going through there in between box and pipe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's barely squeezable, but according to the mapping guidelines, secondary routes should naturally deter onos use. They really arent made for them, they have to crouch and what not.
The guides might say to make secondary areas smaller to stop Onos running about freely but its bull. You shouldn't restrict player movement with maps or you end up taking away game play and tactical aspects.
Can anyone remember running around ayumi with an onos? I can and it sucked dong.
AbraWould you kindlyJoin Date: 2003-08-17Member: 19870Members
I have quite a lot of doorways (not with actual doors in them) near what I might make MS. I'll have to wait to get an onos in game to really get a feel for the annoyance it will generate. The Onos is mighty big!
<!--quoteo(post=1763103:date=Apr 7 2010, 11:07 AM:name=Standard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Standard @ Apr 7 2010, 11:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1763103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The guides might say to make secondary areas smaller to stop Onos running about freely but its bull. You shouldn't restrict player movement with maps or you end up taking away game play and tactical aspects.
Can anyone remember running around ayumi with an onos? I can and it sucked dong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, all secondary routes should have a primary route essentially on the same path as it. They are more for skulks, marines, etc rather than the lumbering onos. Naturally a beast that large shouldnt be able to access all areas of a space station, refinery, etc. So you build accordingly.
As an example, this hallway is just a small short cut into a different portion of the MS, where the main route ends up pretty close to its location at a slight longer distance. Sometimes the Onos just gets the bad end of the stick and hence is why it's a utility class and not a solo class, a marine could hide in areas unaccessable to it and you need back up with you.
The Onos is not a bread and butter class of the alien team and i will not design an entire map just to limit the movement of a couple of Onos per game. If you design corridors to be small to restrict Onos you also restrict other classes, which is very bad. How many times have you been killed as fade because your path has been blocked for what ever reason and you have had no where else to move?
It was never said that the Onos will be unable to get through the secondary paths, at worst it will be a tight squeeze. We also know that the Onos will have a powerful damage shield of sorts. This may help it navigate areas where marines may otherwise attempt to take advantage of its poor mobility.
Also, Cyanide never said he was building maps to limit the Onos. Tight corridors just happen naturally. Much of the setting of Natural Selection 2 implies that it is built for human-sized things, not Oni, and certainly not MASCs.
You wont find any house hallway sized corridors in todays industrial buildings because they are simply not viable and they are dangerous. If you end up putting several extra secondary corridors leading to the same destination as a primary into your map that happen to be that small, you are only doing it to limit Onos movement and nothing else.
If the Devs want tight rooms and corridors to restrict Onos movement, they also need to add other basic mechanics, like stopping a single marine blocking an elephant sized alien by standing in front of it. If you force the Onos to duck through doorways it can be kited by a single marine.
It might sound like a nice idea to have tight corridors all over the shop along side primary corridors, but you would just be reducing the tactical advantage the aliens have by having an Onos. If Marines know theres an Onos about, they wont use the primary routes, thus negating the effects of the Onos. If the Onos tries to go into a secondary area, he gets his dong chopped off.
If the Marines can use the map design to counter an Onos, what type of map design do the aliens take advantage of when the marines get HA/JP?
Its very important that mappers know what 'tight corridor' really means. It doesn't mean an Onos must duck through doors and have its shoulders bang into the walls because thats too tight.
AbraWould you kindlyJoin Date: 2003-08-17Member: 19870Members
edited April 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1763254:date=Apr 8 2010, 12:59 PM:name=Standard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Standard @ Apr 8 2010, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1763254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It might sound like a nice idea to have tight corridors all over the shop along side primary corridors, but you would just be reducing the tactical advantage the aliens have by having an Onos. If Marines know theres an Onos about, they wont use the primary routes, thus negating the effects of the Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Think about it; denying the major routes of the map by having an onos running rampant seems like a pretty big advantage, IF the secondary routes somehow are inferior for the marines somehow (crawlspaces, forcing the marines to duck and move slowly. Dark areas that make skulk attacks more devastating etc.)
Denial of grander scale movement doesn't have to be a small advantage. Just for thought.
edit: Think about half-life 2: episode 2. When you are chased by the antlion guard, you are forced to run, crawl and hide from it until you can retaliate efficiently. That is how I imagine the onos having the potential to be a powerful offensive unit aswell as a alien tool of terror.
Comments
<img src="http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5486/nseuclideanalienstart.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
As this is alien spawn, but I believe floor shouldn't never be flat from wall to wall. Add some diversity.
EDIT: Try first think some name for your room (like ventilation, pipeline etc.) then try make it look like it with minimum props. Atleast this is my way at the moment as we don't can't test these rooms.
I reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally like this architecture gw!
Don't really know what to do with the middle part :\ The lighting is really bland and the walls are... plain.
If you had to think about something, think about how you could make the room defendable for both aliens and marines. The aliens don't look like they'll do so well in open confrontation. Do something to the room so melee defenders could stand a better chance against marines with guns. Maybe give skulks a way to sneak behind the entrances from the room without revealing what they're doing.
<img src="http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7247/hallwayms.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Just have to spice up the ceiling and floor and it should be pretty much done.
Are those supports over the terminals/machines ? Is some of the weight of the roof put on top of the terminals?
Do you mean these?
<img src="http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/705/these.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
If so, then those are part of the model, and I'll probably end up putting small advertisement signs right there. Not like real advertisements, just some fake ones for to go with the theme of the map.
Don't really know what to do with the middle part :\ The lighting is really bland and the walls are... plain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, the walls look fine! Too many screenshots I'm seeing in this thread are plagued with overuse of props. Look at the official NS2 maps. Props are used strategically, they aren't just jammed into every possible space in the map.
Don't really know what to do with the middle part :\ The lighting is really bland and the walls are... plain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would suggest to put some computer technology over there. A terminal of some sort. With a little less lighning and more bleu lighthing. to give atmosphere and depth of feeling... but perhaps I'm just drunk ;-)...
Greetz,
XtOf
Don't really know what to do with the middle part :\ The lighting is really bland and the walls are... plain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The pipe up in the ceiling looks out of proportion. Like it's wider than it is high.
Maybe break some tiles of the floor open or do a fake vent in the wall.
Let me address a few things first.
It is a Marine Spawn and it may look a little cramped, but we'll see when we get to test it in the real game (the marines will spawn on the back of the room, the part with the ramps).
The door on the back really has a stupid placement and I'm aware of it, but I had to break up the wall, I could've put a bunch of terminals, but the door was easier. You can maybe think it's a backup power source or whatever, nanites, I've done stupidier things in my NS1 stuff!
The pipe on ceiling is obviously a "deformed" pipe, I was mimicking something in a concept art, it was a curved surface so I used a pipe. The problem is that the pipe prop is easy to recognize, I guess, don't know what to do with this.
So, here is what I broke up the walls with (I may do something with the lighting later):
<img src="http://www.mendasp.net/stuff/wip/ns2_mendasp_room5-wip11-3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
There's no trim on the open panel, but since this is the "testing" part and I haven't recorded the video yet...
I think I may have to start a thread, but I don't have a name for this map yet...
<img src="http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7247/hallwayms.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Just have to spice up the ceiling and floor and it should be pretty much done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can give you a tip when it comes to designing corridors from a game play perspective. Don't clutter the area with unneeded bits and bobs because it is hard enough as it is to dodge a skulk without stuff to kick into. Remove the benches and replace them with a floor design that you are able to stand on. This will still detail the area but also gives full unrestricted movement in the corridor which is what is needed for alien and marine.
Also crates to provide cover is a lazy mans way of making map amendments. Some people think that it is good to have crates and boxes to hide behind in the middle of a corridor but they are mistaken. They are more of a hindrance that a benefit. If you need crates to give the aliens cover from marine fire, your map is designed badly and you need to redo that section so the aliens can get cover a different way, for example wall ceiling or floor designs.
I've been thinking about this as well. Really want to integrate benches etc. to make maps feel more like there are actual people living there, but then again, it's can be damn annoying gameplay-wise. Best attempt to place them a little out of the way I suppose.
I know, it's a hallway. Thrilling. :)
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/Zt8ZF.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/LqTWP.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/uDmFW.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Also, lol, yes, i realize that one of the props isnt attached to the walls in the pics. I fixed it, haha.
Onos would probably have tough time going through there in between box and pipe.
The destination doesn't define a journey. It's how you got there. =D
Onos would probably have tough time going through there in between box and pipe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's barely squeezable, but according to the mapping guidelines, secondary routes should naturally deter onos use. They really arent made for them, they have to crouch and what not.
Can anyone remember running around ayumi with an onos? I can and it sucked dong.
Can anyone remember running around ayumi with an onos? I can and it sucked dong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, all secondary routes should have a primary route essentially on the same path as it. They are more for skulks, marines, etc rather than the lumbering onos. Naturally a beast that large shouldnt be able to access all areas of a space station, refinery, etc. So you build accordingly.
As an example, this hallway is just a small short cut into a different portion of the MS, where the main route ends up pretty close to its location at a slight longer distance. Sometimes the Onos just gets the bad end of the stick and hence is why it's a utility class and not a solo class, a marine could hide in areas unaccessable to it and you need back up with you.
Also, Cyanide never said he was building maps to limit the Onos. Tight corridors just happen naturally. Much of the setting of Natural Selection 2 implies that it is built for human-sized things, not Oni, and certainly not MASCs.
If the Devs want tight rooms and corridors to restrict Onos movement, they also need to add other basic mechanics, like stopping a single marine blocking an elephant sized alien by standing in front of it. If you force the Onos to duck through doorways it can be kited by a single marine.
It might sound like a nice idea to have tight corridors all over the shop along side primary corridors, but you would just be reducing the tactical advantage the aliens have by having an Onos. If Marines know theres an Onos about, they wont use the primary routes, thus negating the effects of the Onos. If the Onos tries to go into a secondary area, he gets his dong chopped off.
If the Marines can use the map design to counter an Onos, what type of map design do the aliens take advantage of when the marines get HA/JP?
Its very important that mappers know what 'tight corridor' really means. It doesn't mean an Onos must duck through doors and have its shoulders bang into the walls because thats too tight.
Think about it; denying the major routes of the map by having an onos running rampant seems like a pretty big advantage, IF the secondary routes somehow are inferior for the marines somehow (crawlspaces, forcing the marines to duck and move slowly. Dark areas that make skulk attacks more devastating etc.)
Denial of grander scale movement doesn't have to be a small advantage.
Just for thought.
edit: Think about half-life 2: episode 2. When you are chased by the antlion guard, you are forced to run, crawl and hide from it until you can retaliate efficiently. That is how I imagine the onos having the potential to be a powerful offensive unit aswell as a alien tool of terror.