Emphazising the RTS part of NS2
Kickchon
Join Date: 2003-11-11 Member: 22524Members
Join Date: 2003-11-11 Member: 22524Members
<div class="IPBDescription">How to make the commanding more interesting</div>Hi there,
I'd like to summarize the current commanding experience in NS and give a few recommendations to make the experience more interesting and challenging.
Currently the commander does the following in NS1:
<ul><li>Build Structures</li><li>Research Technology</li><li>Micromange Medpacks and Ammo</li><li>Handout weapons</li><li>Catpacks?</li><li>Scans</li></ul>
In NS2 as far as we know, the follwing was changed:
<ul><li>Weapons can be bought by marines themselves</li><li>Weldbot added, controlable by commander</li><li>Commanding of the new siege tank</li><li>Medpack situation still unclear</li><li>Catpacks also?</li></ul>
So commanders lost the duty to distribute weapons and maybe do medpack micromanagment.
However he has two new toys to play with, the weldbot and the siegecannon.
I think compared to a real RTS game these tasks can be fulfilled by an experienced commander with relative ease.
So the commander needs some additional work to do. ;)
Let's try to analyse a traditional RTS to find something more:
Obviously you need to <u>construct units</u>-
Incorporating this into NS2 maybe could be achieved in the following way:
The Infrantry Portal could have a button to reduce the respawn time of a dead marine.
If someone dies the commander could select the IP, push the button (or hotkey) and reduce the respawn time.
Without it the marine would respawn anyway but would take a bit longer.
Furthermore you need to <u>control your units</u>.
At the moment the commander has the opportunity to use waypoints to give objectives to the marines.
However this is rarely utilized due to marines already knowing what to do by themselves. (Assuming a non total beginner)
In NS1 if I remember correctly you gain about 2 ressources for a kill of a Kharaa.
To emphazise unit control, maybe it is possible to only assign those resources if there was an attack order for this alien some time before it was killed.
Often you have to use unit <u>special abilities</u>.
Well~ In NS1 there are none. :) If there were special abilities which could only be activated by the commander, they should not give an advantage in actual combat, because this should be the experience of the marine.
So, if there were special abilities they should give passive advantages.
I'll give an example, however I am not sure this would be useful at all, it's just to give an idea of what kind of abilites would be possible:
It's a a cloaking device, which could be researched as a general update. Marines could then be cloaked by the commander for maybe 5 seconds (only shorttime). It would break when the marine starts shooting.
So with good communication it would be possible to save a marine in combat by ceasing combat and disappearing due to the commander.
If longer invisibility is granted, obviously the Kharaa need some kind of counter anyway.
Again: This is only an example of possible unit specials.
Different benefits or disadvantages are possible of course, but I hope I could make clear what I'd like the commanding experience to be.
Actual implementation is really not that important, as long as the general idea of commanding gets enhanced. ;)
Just my 2 cents to commanding. ;)
I'd like to summarize the current commanding experience in NS and give a few recommendations to make the experience more interesting and challenging.
Currently the commander does the following in NS1:
<ul><li>Build Structures</li><li>Research Technology</li><li>Micromange Medpacks and Ammo</li><li>Handout weapons</li><li>Catpacks?</li><li>Scans</li></ul>
In NS2 as far as we know, the follwing was changed:
<ul><li>Weapons can be bought by marines themselves</li><li>Weldbot added, controlable by commander</li><li>Commanding of the new siege tank</li><li>Medpack situation still unclear</li><li>Catpacks also?</li></ul>
So commanders lost the duty to distribute weapons and maybe do medpack micromanagment.
However he has two new toys to play with, the weldbot and the siegecannon.
I think compared to a real RTS game these tasks can be fulfilled by an experienced commander with relative ease.
So the commander needs some additional work to do. ;)
Let's try to analyse a traditional RTS to find something more:
Obviously you need to <u>construct units</u>-
Incorporating this into NS2 maybe could be achieved in the following way:
The Infrantry Portal could have a button to reduce the respawn time of a dead marine.
If someone dies the commander could select the IP, push the button (or hotkey) and reduce the respawn time.
Without it the marine would respawn anyway but would take a bit longer.
Furthermore you need to <u>control your units</u>.
At the moment the commander has the opportunity to use waypoints to give objectives to the marines.
However this is rarely utilized due to marines already knowing what to do by themselves. (Assuming a non total beginner)
In NS1 if I remember correctly you gain about 2 ressources for a kill of a Kharaa.
To emphazise unit control, maybe it is possible to only assign those resources if there was an attack order for this alien some time before it was killed.
Often you have to use unit <u>special abilities</u>.
Well~ In NS1 there are none. :) If there were special abilities which could only be activated by the commander, they should not give an advantage in actual combat, because this should be the experience of the marine.
So, if there were special abilities they should give passive advantages.
I'll give an example, however I am not sure this would be useful at all, it's just to give an idea of what kind of abilites would be possible:
It's a a cloaking device, which could be researched as a general update. Marines could then be cloaked by the commander for maybe 5 seconds (only shorttime). It would break when the marine starts shooting.
So with good communication it would be possible to save a marine in combat by ceasing combat and disappearing due to the commander.
If longer invisibility is granted, obviously the Kharaa need some kind of counter anyway.
Again: This is only an example of possible unit specials.
Different benefits or disadvantages are possible of course, but I hope I could make clear what I'd like the commanding experience to be.
Actual implementation is really not that important, as long as the general idea of commanding gets enhanced. ;)
Just my 2 cents to commanding. ;)
Comments
Meanwhile the marine/commander interaction is extremely unique. It can be tied to spell support (Medpacks/scan energy in NS1) and general communication (Hurry up! / Slow down, be careful! compared to usual RTS units with one level of awarness and performance for example) at least.
I think the sound scouting was pretty unique way of doing things too. It rewards game sense in a nice way and suits the mobile NS gameplay extremely well (for example starcraft styled scan would be pretty bad way of detecting skirmishing skulks).
One thing NS could pick from RTSes is the building placement. There's some of it in the game (mostly obs/PG/TF placement), but it's hardly as dynamic and innovative as most RTS games have it. I can't see any big downsides on having more depth in that section.
One useful suggestion that came from this discussion above was to have damaged RT's give less resources. This would allow for more useful economic harassment, instead of the 'all of none' we see in NS1, while giving something useful for the commander to do (using the weldbot).
Making an RTS/FPS hybrid, in my opinion, is the single hardest game to develop because the interaction/balance between the FPS and RTS side is the most important aspect to the game yet its incredibly difficult to properly balance.
I agree that finding the right balance is a very difficult task. ;)
A newcomer would find such juggling of tasks daunting. I think what NS2 is adding more strategy into commanding, and taking away all the twitch reflex things that would take away from that experience. Now that the commander is not so busy managing all these menial tasks, he can strategise more effectively, and keep an eye on the things that really matter, like upgrades, resources, weapons, enemy positions.
The things that kickchon suggests mostly sound like quicktime events, which is a very bad idea.
I have no idea how you've determined all of this from the very little we know about commanding in NS2 unless I missed some major update somewhere. Reflex / twitch skills are a <i>very</i> important aspect to just about every RTS and should not be neglected in NS2. Adding "quick time events," as you call them for whatever reason, could be an added level of skill for a player to master. If we dumb commanding down to the role of making the strategy then the commander will have a very boring gameplay experience most of the time. Why?
Because the team's "strategy" isn't created by one person, but rather, the whole team. Most marines throw their input into where they want a phase gate, what upgrades they want, etc. Most marines react on their own to events happening and don't always go where the commander tells them to. If you delegate the role of "strategy" to one person, the commander, inevitability when other players start contributing the commander will either become bored or frustrated depending on how seriously he takes his game.
Added micro abilities is a good idea, so long as they're balanced and the commander isn't reduced to a babysitter like he was in NS1.
A newcomer would find such juggling of tasks daunting. I think what NS2 is adding more strategy into commanding, and taking away all the twitch reflex things that would take away from that experience. Now that the commander is not so busy managing all these menial tasks, he can strategise more effectively, and keep an eye on the things that really matter, like upgrades, resources, weapons, enemy positions.
The things that kickchon suggests mostly sound like quicktime events, which is a very bad idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Wah wah, I have to do more stuff than sit staring at the screen like a deer in headlights and click every 5 seconds as comm" ?
Why do all these people seem to want to sit there playing chess with the alien team? The comm should have more stuff to do than in NS1 and more ways of influencing his marines on the ground. I can see on public servers where everyone does what they want and doesnt listen to you that it can get annoying. It's just another argument for a built in pickup group finder.
NS2 needs to be an enjoyable and accessible FPS --> NS2 can't prioritize strategical decisionmaking over every other part of the game --> NS2 can't reach any chess like depth --> Commanding can't focus on extremely complex decisionmaking alone --> Commanding needs micro/macromanagement.
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I feel a lot of the issues with NS commanding are because of the clunky UI. The hotkeys aren't documented anywhere, the communication is minimal since HLVoice is terrible and the waypoints block more than they inform. Now we've got the engine to fix most of it.
It's also good to keep in mind that NS1 wasn't designed with 32 players in mind. Having 16 marines for babysitting isn't what they are designing in NS2. Having 16 marines that you can support is closer to what I'd expect to see.
Also, making a more hardcore RTS port into the FPS world give you Savage. Behold! Some player's job is to.... mine gold for the team....
Sounds like EVE.
Nah. EVE miners are all bots. Everyone else is going around pew-pewing in PvP once they realize that missions+mining stinks monkey balls.
Commanders are an inherent flaw in RTS/FPS games so you're always going to have problems with them. The only soluton I can think of is to not have a commander and simply distribute the RTS tasks to FPS players, so you can do the RTS bits when needed but when they aren't (which is most of the time) you can play FPS. The more FPS players you can distribute them to, the more reliability the game has because someone is always going to be able to pick up slack.
Of course you're not likely to get that because NS has a commander and that isn't negotiable, but it's a solution.
A newcomer would find such juggling of tasks daunting. I think what NS2 is adding more strategy into commanding, and taking away all the twitch reflex things that would take away from that experience. Now that the commander is not so busy managing all these menial tasks, he can strategise more effectively, and keep an eye on the things that really matter, like upgrades, resources, weapons, enemy positions.
The things that kickchon suggests mostly sound like quicktime events, which is a very bad idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you really call ns1 commanding fast paced? LMFAO. You only need 30 apm to be a good commander in NS1. That is really slow. You don't even have to make critical decisions in NS1 in terms of upgrades except for the decision to go Jetpack or Heavy Armor.
Compared to a real RTS game, NS1's commanding is a cakewalk.
Starcraft on the otherhand requires at least 200apm to be competitive. Korean pros average to around 300-400apm.
Hinging the entire functionality of the game on one player being a 'pro starcraft player' is kind of dumb.
Or how about the commander announces team objectives at start of the game and these can be put in order. So for instance, when a player looks at the map Objective 1 can be seen to secure a resource node room here; a marker for Objective 2 is to Build and Defend a tech node there, followed by getting this upgrade... or something like that. That way the team knows what the commander is planning to do and can assist in achieving those goals without having to give a bunch of players separate orders. The other thing about this is, the Primary Objectives can be changed at any time because of certain situations that may come up or by request of players.
Or how about the commander announces team objectives at start of the game and these can be put in order. So for instance, when a player looks at the map Objective 1 can be seen to secure a resource node room here; a marker for Objective 2 is to Build and Defend a tech node there, followed by getting this upgrade... or something like that. That way the team knows what the commander is planning to do and can assist in achieving those goals without having to give a bunch of players separate orders. The other thing about this is, the Primary Objectives can be changed at any time because of certain situations that may come up or by request of players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one ever uses radio commands in NS except for asking for an RT/PG, Medpack, or Ammo.
You have voice chat for that.
I agree with mu, this is why we should have L4D-type lobby system or game organizer, ranked preferably.
I wouldn't mind delayed auto-medpack system, especially for 12vs12++ games.
Also the sound part is very important : you can hear the whole map. I hope it is put to good use for NS2.
In NS1 the comm could press all the buttons the Marines could. Granted, it was often impossible to click on those door panels.... Probably should make it easier in NS2. Big giant buttons appear on your screen over the object you can manipulate.
Hmmm no, iirc that used to be true but now there's only few maps left where this is possible. And it's not just about hitting the angle ( which you can reach by setting your view a bit aside from the button you wanna activate ). It's just that it was made impossible.
Making an RTS/FPS hybrid, in my opinion, is the single hardest game to develop because the interaction/balance between the FPS and RTS side is the most important aspect to the game yet its incredibly difficult to properly balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Has anybody here played "Savage 2"? Its a fairly popular RTS/FPS (mostly melle oriented though). As the commander in that game I have always felt 'very' engaged with few moments of nothing to do. The commsin this game are able to cast defensive and offensive buffs/debuffs heals/dots, speed players up/down, teleport players back to base, and spawn commander controlled "worker" units (3 max, they can also attack).
In this game the RT's also perform less and less as they get damaged, and players do take advantage of it (it actually costs more to fully repair one than to rebuild it completely).
Well, its not the game to copy completely it has its highs and lows like any game, but comming a good team is defenitely a high : P. (comming a bad team can be fun too, hah).
One addition Id like to see, that I saw in Savage 2 would be a commander rating system, so players know when theyre getting a ###### comm or griefer! (should be in the interface)
tech choices were so stupid, you either chose between a monastery or armory as humans.. the research was the actual building and losing them would take away it. so if you had a monastery you could build chaplains, a support class. an armory was always the favoured one however because it gave so much, a new tier of advanced weaponry for every unit on the field etc.
that said, was a good game while it lasted.
Played and didn't like it. Mostly because it didn't feel RTS-ey enough. Or, perhaps because it was too much RTS and you're a useless peon....
Thats up to the players nothing wrong with the idea of "harder commanding". There is no point in rewarding someone who is bad, instead gaining the skill is very rewarding indeed.
That sounds quite good, but that seems like it could lead to a bit of abuse. Imagine a commander spamming waypoints just so rines could early rush heavy weapons.
I mean, if the devs could figure out a way to make that work, I'm all for it, but it definitely seems a bit ambitious and could take up resources that UW doesn't have.
It also forces commanding with waypoints. I'd much rather have a flexible set of options ranging from waypoints to voice communications to co-operate with marines. Spamming waypoints misses the point of having such interactive 'units' under your command, turning NS into a far less interesting game than your average RTS.