<!--quoteo(post=1756226:date=Mar 1 2010, 05:12 AM:name=glimmerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (glimmerman @ Mar 1 2010, 05:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone read the latest interview?!!?!?!?!?!?!? Fade's out of the game, they couldn't include it, exoskelton is confirmed though.
true story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have no idea if you're being sarcastic or not. But if this is true, please provide a link for me to see. Because ###### is going to hit the fan as soon as this thing get confirmed
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
so who is the poor fool (nice guy) that will go through the 13 pages, collect all of the unique ideas, tally the doubled up suggestions, and sort the ideas by melee, spore type, and misc.
After a couple weeks of playing I really hated the early Spore Cloud in v3.0 ... I mean there was NO counter to it that early in the game. Well, except medpacks... but that just made it worse. If you were a rine you hated your comm for not medding you. If you were a comm the spore spam was driving you crazy, and you felt like <b>crap</b> every time you had res to counter spore spam, but had to save it for something else.
I was always really hoping that in NS2 you would either get rid of Spores, medspamming, or both.
Maybe you could give the rines a personal med-hypo that heals slowly over time? Too slowly to help in an actual fight, but fast enough to help against spores?
Or something... I dunno. Just please avoid the <b>NAUSEA</b> that early game Spore spam caused to the commander.
*EDIT* I had an idea ... a large part of the problem was that the Lerk only needed to peek around a corner for 0.3 seconds to launch each Spore ... and each Spore had a huge AoE and massive damage (over the whole duration). Now I appreciate the need for alien area-denial stuff ... but how about making the Spores have a higher RoF, lower energy cost and smaller AoE ... meaning that if the Lerk wants to deny the marines a large area, he'll need to show his face for more than 0.3 seconds.
Also, I liked the idea of giving Bile Bomb to the Lerk and Umbra to the Gorge. Lerk bombing runs and more Gorgey support, what's not to like.
<!--quoteo(post=1756250:date=Mar 1 2010, 04:49 AM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Mar 1 2010, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756250"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so who is the poor fool (nice guy) that will go through the 13 pages, collect all of the unique ideas, tally the doubled up suggestions, and sort the ideas by melee, spore type, and misc.
so the devs can see a nice concise list<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey... they should outsource that work to a community member!! =D Or several, even...
That'd give em more time to work on the actual game, while still getting reports of the feedback.
I like the idea of Spore Mines. It would be fun to have lerks shoot these and have them pulsating on the floor, walls, vents, etc. And if a marine were to step on it, get in proximity, or shoot it, it would explode and spore gas cloud.
This could be awesome to use offensively as well as defensively. Obviously the number of spore mines you could fire would have be carefully balanced... maybe you get 3? maybe only certain amount per section of map? maybe they only last a certain amount of time? maybe it costs all your energy, or even costs res?
i just think it would be pretty awesome. also, it may be interesting if they could become cloaked, or if placed on dynamic infestation, they could be pretty well camouflaged, so the marines would have to be very careful or risk stepping on them.
btw- lerk looks awesome. some of the animation may need to be tweaked a bit, but looks really really good.
I think I'd like to vote against spore mines as a lerk (or any alien) ability. The marines are the group with static defenses (plus they already have mines). I think it's important that we emphasize the differences between the two sides as much as possible.
<!--quoteo(post=1756199:date=Mar 1 2010, 04:10 AM:name=Centurion)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Centurion @ Mar 1 2010, 04:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think some people are criticizing (i don't ###### know how to write this word) too much the game. They just wanted NS2 to be the same thing NS was, but with better graphics. But people have to understand that it can't happen. NS2 will now be a product, not a mod anymore, it has to be sold. In order to be sold, it needs to be more balanced, needs changes to captivate those people who never played the mod before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS got a huge player base even when it was totally unbalanced compared to current NS1 version is <b>the most balanced</b> and awesome version, yet somehow devs seem to be ignoring all the development that was made. There're other succesful games with huge learning curve such as Hoi2, Victoria etc. The less skill the game takes to play, the shorter its scene is going to be. If money is all you care about, then its another thing of course.
I mean, its obvious the game's gonna need balancing. It took 5 years to get NS1 to proper balance. If they would just port NS1 to their new engine, they wouldn't have to do all this balancing because it'd automatically balanced. I mean one reason NS1 scene dimnished, was that 1st version was hugely unbalanced and bugged.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Damn, I'm tired of reading this forum every time UWE posts something. 90% of the posts it's people saying it sucks. So why are you still here if it sucks so much? Your comments won't change many things, they want to sell the game in first place, and in second place make a game for the "veterans". And one more thing, we will be able to change the game the way we want, since it's so easy to work with LUA.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong. Most posts just hype the lerk and speculate about spore mines etc. stuff that has spoiled many NS servers nowadays. Just for the argument, I checked page I replied on first. 12 positive replies, 2 or 3 negative replies.
And its stupid to say "go away" as a counter-argument, it'll get us nowhere. If people have reasoned arguments against the development path, they can say them. To quote one finnish ns player, "if nobody ever had whined about anything, we'd still be sitting in trees, throwing each other with crap".
But unlike most here, I don't care that much about the release date. I think whining about it is mostly pointless, but when you have something of substance to say, say it. I'm sure devs already got the message about the missed release window.
Like Fana, I complain about this, because I really care about NS, and it'd be shame if NS2 would flop. I can't just watch same mistakes being repeated again.
<!--quoteo(post=1756325:date=Mar 1 2010, 06:48 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Mar 1 2010, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The less skill the game takes to play, the shorter its scene is going to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, that applies only rarely. Most popular games require close to no skills at all. L4D for example.
<!--quoteo(post=1756325:date=Mar 1 2010, 06:48 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Mar 1 2010, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't just watch same mistakes being repeated again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So little we know yet, how can you judge anything being a mistake.
<!--quoteo(post=1756325:date=Mar 1 2010, 06:48 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Mar 1 2010, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ps. Vote for Spore Alt-Fire Umbra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd have to agree for the conservative thought and get umbra as Alt-fire, but how do we know if it is still useful gameplaywise.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited March 2010
A lot of these complaints will be much more informed when you play the beta. I have reservations myself but I'm willing to keep an open mind. It is almost impossible to isolate a single mechanic of NS2 while avoiding analysing its effect on classic NS, which doesn't make a lot of sense.
If you read this topic again but pretend this lerk reveal was for NS 3.3, then you can understand where many people are coming from, and who knows, maybe their fears will be borne out but just keep an open mind.
<!--quoteo(post=1756325:date=Mar 1 2010, 04:48 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Mar 1 2010, 04:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they would just port NS1 to their new engine, they wouldn't have to do all this balancing because it'd automatically balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No it wouldn't. I believe I said this earlier but many of the balancing choices made in NS1 were clearly due to the limitations of the HL engine. The only reason lerks were ever overpowered, for example, was because their hitbox would exist at random places around them when they flew too fast. Hard to hit. The onos was also balanced around limitations in the engine. Their new engine is built specifically for this game, so this time they can make their choices based on what will work best, not merely what is possible.
There are obviously reasonable reasons to be concerned about spikes, but porting NS1 is never going to be a solution. Hyperbolic statements aren't going to help though and a lot of the criticism is framed in an entirely ridiculous manner. It's really irritating to come on the boards and have to respond to the latest person to say, "I didn't like X about Y in the recent news, NS2 is going down the wrong path and it's doooooooomed!!!!!1" No one is going to be convinced by that language. Especially when there's literally zero evidence that UWE has somehow lost their memory of NS1. Most of the principals at UWE have been involved since the beginning of NS1. It's completely irrational to assume they haven't followed the same learning curve as members of the competitive community. It's completely irrational to assume that the same people that made the "most balanced and awesome version" will not take any lessons from that.
I share the desire of people who want NS2 to be a similarly paced competitive game like NS1, but there are ways of being heard that don't involve whining. Maybe in Finland whining is how they spur development, but where I grew up we were brought up to find constructive solutions to problems. If you really need examples on how to behave go back and look at hawthorne's posts in this forum.
<!--quoteo(post=1756334:date=Mar 2 2010, 12:21 AM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Mar 2 2010, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are obviously reasonable reasons to be concerned about spikes, but porting NS1 is never going to be a solution. Hyperbolic statements aren't going to help though and a lot of the criticism is framed in an entirely ridiculous manner. It's really irritating to come on the boards and have to respond to the latest person to say, "I didn't like X about Y in the recent news, NS2 is going down the wrong path and it's doooooooomed!!!!!1" No one is going to be convinced by that language. Especially when there's literally zero evidence that UWE has somehow lost their memory of NS1. Most of the principals at UWE have been involved since the beginning of NS1. It's completely irrational to assume they haven't followed the same learning curve as members of the competitive community. It's completely irrational to assume that the same people that made the "most balanced and awesome version" will not take any lessons from that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, that applies only rarely. Most popular games require close to no skills at all. L4D for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course they do. Even though L4D had its own tournament (which a e-friend of mine was running and quited cos of the boring game), its more like blast-em shooter to play with friends, not a serious competitive game like Starcraft or TF2 which require a lot variety of skills. If devs are serious about making a competitive, they need to include a skill element in variety of ways.
Yeah well I'm still going to play alpha and see how it works out. And its definitely just not the spikes, its just the overall "average" of updates that has made me worried if devs really know what made NS so great. Someone in the AVP thread made a good remark: "it feels like the devs of new AVP just collected all ideas that made previous AVP a great game and then trashed them". If a big company like Sega can make a such mistake, I don't see how UWE couldn't do it. Just see what kind of an uprising taser caused.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are obviously reasonable reasons to be concerned about spikes, but porting NS1 is never going to be a solution. Hyperbolic statements aren't going to help though and a lot of the criticism is framed in an entirely ridiculous manner. It's really irritating to come on the boards and have to respond to the latest person to say, "I didn't like X about Y in the recent news, NS2 is going down the wrong path and it's doooooooomed!!!!!1" No one is going to be convinced by that language. Especially when there's literally zero evidence that UWE has somehow lost their memory of NS1. Most of the principals at UWE have been involved since the beginning of NS1. It's completely irrational to assume they haven't followed the same learning curve as members of the competitive community. It's completely irrational to assume that the same people that made the "most balanced and awesome version" will not take any lessons from that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's a lots of history that you probably don't know about and deep wounds I'm not going to touch here, but I'd say puzl is mostly responsible for us having such a balanced and great game. He is not a NS2 developer. In the second place, this is more like a nail in the coffin. Like I said, I've followed the updates for years, and there're dozens of other news that have made me if not facepalm, atleast negatively surprised. In the third place, are you now trying to say me or Fana didn't have reason behind our arguments?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So little we know yet, how can you judge anything being a mistake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I'm not saying its a 100% mistake but to quote Han Solo: "I have a bad feeling about this". I played 1.04 lerk and I've played 3.x Lerk, latter is awesome, former is not.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd have to agree for the conservative thought and get umbra as Alt-fire, but how do we know if it is still useful gameplaywise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well as long as you need to kill aliens, umbra will be extra armor for aliens, so it should be useful.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I share the desire of people who want NS2 to be a similarly paced competitive game like NS1, but there are ways of being heard that don't involve whining. Maybe in Finland whining is how they spur development, but where I grew up we were brought up to find constructive solutions to problems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I said if people have <b>reasoned</b> arguments about the development path, they should say them. Just because the response is negative, doesn't mean its whining. The quote was there for extra fun and you took it too literally.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you really need examples on how to behave go back and look at hawthorne's posts in this forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Behave? Excuse me, I haven't insulted anyone. I have given reasoned criticism, there's nothing wrong with that. There's no point of having discussion forums if you cannot take negative feedback.
I'd say the only problem I have with the lerk's looks have to deal with his eyes. They look too circular and kinda dumbish. I think they should appear to be more menacing and clever, rather than open and birdlike.
I can understand concerns over competitive depth but some of you guys are unbelievably resistant to change of any kind for any reason. You may be satisfied with a straight port with prettier graphics but most of us stopped playing NS because we've had our fill of it and want something new. Appeasing only the hardcore competitive players with no concern for keeping the game fun for everybody else is the best way to make a flop. There's absolutely no reason to think that it's impossible for spikes to have competitive depth, and as long as it's possible then that can be tweaked during beta and beyond. That's how the 3.0 Lerk came about in the first place, remember?
it's so easy to say call someone a whiner when you're lacking solid arguments, i mean you see things how you want them to be and it doesnt matter if the previous speaker said some really smart things. Also from my perspective by taking away the lerk bite the game loses it's dynamic at certain point, the more static and non skill involving the game is the sooner it will get boring, why bother playing when you can't rly develop your skills anymore and your lerk role comes only to gasing and shooting spikes from vent for another 15 minutes...? it's much better to do a dinner and invite your friends then waste your time in that vent ; D
<!--quoteo(post=1756342:date=Mar 2 2010, 04:05 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 2 2010, 04:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756342"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We've been over this a dozen times, the new spikes are a short/mid-range weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
does that mean i cannot sit in the vent for 15 minutes?
<!--quoteo(post=1756343:date=Mar 1 2010, 09:07 PM:name=DRagon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DRagon @ Mar 1 2010, 09:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756343"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->does that mean i cannot sit in the vent for 15 minutes?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're free to sit there all game if you like.
<!--quoteo(post=1756344:date=Mar 2 2010, 04:07 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 2 2010, 04:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're free to sit there all game if you like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
surely i can but where's the skill part,fun and improvement here?
<!--quoteo(post=1756336:date=Mar 1 2010, 06:24 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Mar 1 2010, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Behave? Excuse me, I haven't insulted anyone. I have given reasoned criticism, there's nothing wrong with that. There's no point of having discussion forums if you cannot take negative feedback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, it wasn't clear but most of that post wasn't directed specifically at you or in response to your post. Negative feedback is probably the most informative part of public input in game design, so I'm in agreement with you.
I know puzl and others were instrumental in many of the changes in NS and I was a part of the 1.5 beta veteran program debacle so I know exactly when NS had its "teachable moment" (does Charlie drink beer?) but the people that were steering the ship throughout the development are the same people designing NS2, plus it's obvious that many of the other people responsible for the production of NS are still active in the community. Not to mention how there seems to be an assumption that every version of NS prior to 3.2 wasn't fun at all.
Again, I am not opposed to criticism at all, but most of the criticism to these reveal posts seem to lack any context or even awareness that there is context that has bearing on the argument. I suppose I am just stubborn in my desire for <i>reasonable</i> discussion.
But I was taught in army to back through my footsteps if I ever countered a mine field ... I think.
I'll remember to spikekill Zek as many times from vents as possible if I ever see you on NS2 Alpha servers!
<!--quoteo(post=1756339:date=Mar 2 2010, 03:57 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 2 2010, 03:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can understand concerns over competitive depth but some of you guys are unbelievably resistant to change of any kind for any reason. You may be satisfied with a straight port with prettier graphics but most of us stopped playing NS because we've had our fill of it and want something new. Appeasing only the hardcore competitive players with no concern for keeping the game fun for everybody else is the best way to make a flop. There's absolutely no reason to think that it's impossible for spikes to have competitive depth, and as long as it's possible then that can be tweaked during beta and beyond. That's how the 3.0 Lerk came about in the first place, remember?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, it took 3 years for 3.0 Lerk to come in. You've got to remember that NS2 is a commercial game. How many commercial games have big changes after release? I'm not saying new is bad, on the contrary change is good, but I don't like lifeforms turning more monotonic and losing skill dimensions. I'm not saying this is necessarily going to happen, but I'm just not that optimistic as you are.
The real reason I'm worried is because if the classic mode is horrible as competitive, getting as many people to competitive as TF2 did, will be hard. We probably have to do a pro mod for NS2, but only a minority will know about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1756351:date=Mar 1 2010, 09:41 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Mar 1 2010, 09:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I was taught in army to back through my footsteps if I ever countered a mine field ... I think.
I'll remember to spikekill Zek as many times from vents as possible if I ever see you on NS2 Alpha servers!
Yes, it took 3 years for 3.0 Lerk to come in. You've got to remember that NS2 is a commercial game. How many commercial games have big changes after release? I'm not saying new is bad, on the contrary change is good, but I don't like lifeforms turning more monotonic and losing skill dimensions. I'm not saying this is necessarily going to happen, but I'm just not that optimistic as you are.
The real reason I'm worried is because if the classic mode is horrible as competitive, <b>getting as many people to competitive as TF2 did</b>, will be hard. We probably have to do a pro mod for NS2, but only a minority will know about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is so surreal. I remember several months ago people using TF2 as an example of a game that is designed for the lowest common denominator and a game that is void of skill.
Comments
true story.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no idea if you're being sarcastic or not. But if this is true, please provide a link for me to see. Because ###### is going to hit the fan as soon as this thing get confirmed
Srsly..!?
so the devs can see a nice concise list
I was always really hoping that in NS2 you would either get rid of Spores, medspamming, or both.
Maybe you could give the rines a personal med-hypo that heals slowly over time? Too slowly to help in an actual fight, but fast enough to help against spores?
Or something... I dunno. Just please avoid the <b>NAUSEA</b> that early game Spore spam caused to the commander.
*EDIT*
I had an idea ... a large part of the problem was that the Lerk only needed to peek around a corner for 0.3 seconds to launch each Spore ... and each Spore had a huge AoE and massive damage (over the whole duration). Now I appreciate the need for alien area-denial stuff ... but how about making the Spores have a higher RoF, lower energy cost and smaller AoE ... meaning that if the Lerk wants to deny the marines a large area, he'll need to show his face for more than 0.3 seconds.
Also, I liked the idea of giving Bile Bomb to the Lerk and Umbra to the Gorge. Lerk bombing runs and more Gorgey support, what's not to like.
so the devs can see a nice concise list<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey... they should outsource that work to a community member!! =D Or several, even...
That'd give em more time to work on the actual game, while still getting reports of the feedback.
Great idea, mate!! =D
And if a marine were to step on it, get in proximity, or shoot it, it would explode and spore gas cloud.
This could be awesome to use offensively as well as defensively. Obviously the number of spore mines you could fire would have be carefully balanced... maybe you get 3? maybe only certain amount per section of map? maybe they only last a certain amount of time? maybe it costs all your energy, or even costs res?
i just think it would be pretty awesome. also, it may be interesting if they could become cloaked, or if placed on dynamic infestation, they could be pretty well camouflaged, so the marines would have to be very careful or risk stepping on them.
btw- lerk looks awesome. some of the animation may need to be tweaked a bit, but looks really really good.
Did they mention umbra or...?
anyway, I thought it was always a decent support skill in a group rush.
Helped inspire teamplay.
NS got a huge player base even when it was totally unbalanced compared to current NS1 version is <b>the most balanced</b> and awesome version, yet somehow devs seem to be ignoring all the development that was made. There're other succesful games with huge learning curve such as Hoi2, Victoria etc. The less skill the game takes to play, the shorter its scene is going to be. If money is all you care about, then its another thing of course.
I mean, its obvious the game's gonna need balancing. It took 5 years to get NS1 to proper balance. If they would just port NS1 to their new engine, they wouldn't have to do all this balancing because it'd automatically balanced. I mean one reason NS1 scene dimnished, was that 1st version was hugely unbalanced and bugged.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Damn, I'm tired of reading this forum every time UWE posts something. 90% of the posts it's people saying it sucks. So why are you still here if it sucks so much? Your comments won't change many things, they want to sell the game in first place, and in second place make a game for the "veterans". And one more thing, we will be able to change the game the way we want, since it's so easy to work with LUA.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. Most posts just hype the lerk and speculate about spore mines etc. stuff that has spoiled many NS servers nowadays. Just for the argument, I checked page I replied on first. 12 positive replies, 2 or 3 negative replies.
And its stupid to say "go away" as a counter-argument, it'll get us nowhere. If people have reasoned arguments against the development path, they can say them. To quote one finnish ns player, "if nobody ever had whined about anything, we'd still be sitting in trees, throwing each other with crap".
But unlike most here, I don't care that much about the release date. I think whining about it is mostly pointless, but when you have something of substance to say, say it. I'm sure devs already got the message about the missed release window.
Like Fana, I complain about this, because I really care about NS, and it'd be shame if NS2 would flop. I can't just watch same mistakes being repeated again.
ps. Vote for Spore Alt-Fire Umbra.
Actually, that applies only rarely. Most popular games require close to no skills at all. L4D for example.
<!--quoteo(post=1756325:date=Mar 1 2010, 06:48 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Mar 1 2010, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't just watch same mistakes being repeated again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So little we know yet, how can you judge anything being a mistake.
<!--quoteo(post=1756325:date=Mar 1 2010, 06:48 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Mar 1 2010, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ps. Vote for Spore Alt-Fire Umbra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd have to agree for the conservative thought and get umbra as Alt-fire, but how do we know if it is still useful gameplaywise.
If you read this topic again but pretend this lerk reveal was for NS 3.3, then you can understand where many people are coming from, and who knows, maybe their fears will be borne out but just keep an open mind.
No it wouldn't. I believe I said this earlier but many of the balancing choices made in NS1 were clearly due to the limitations of the HL engine. The only reason lerks were ever overpowered, for example, was because their hitbox would exist at random places around them when they flew too fast. Hard to hit. The onos was also balanced around limitations in the engine. Their new engine is built specifically for this game, so this time they can make their choices based on what will work best, not merely what is possible.
There are obviously reasonable reasons to be concerned about spikes, but porting NS1 is never going to be a solution. Hyperbolic statements aren't going to help though and a lot of the criticism is framed in an entirely ridiculous manner. It's really irritating to come on the boards and have to respond to the latest person to say, "I didn't like X about Y in the recent news, NS2 is going down the wrong path and it's doooooooomed!!!!!1" No one is going to be convinced by that language. Especially when there's literally zero evidence that UWE has somehow lost their memory of NS1. Most of the principals at UWE have been involved since the beginning of NS1. It's completely irrational to assume they haven't followed the same learning curve as members of the competitive community. It's completely irrational to assume that the same people that made the "most balanced and awesome version" will not take any lessons from that.
I share the desire of people who want NS2 to be a similarly paced competitive game like NS1, but there are ways of being heard that don't involve whining. Maybe in Finland whining is how they spur development, but where I grew up we were brought up to find constructive solutions to problems. If you really need examples on how to behave go back and look at hawthorne's posts in this forum.
Counterpoint: they aren't the same people.
Of course they do. Even though L4D had its own tournament (which a e-friend of mine was running and quited cos of the boring game), its more like blast-em shooter to play with friends, not a serious competitive game like Starcraft or TF2 which require a lot variety of skills. If devs are serious about making a competitive, they need to include a skill element in variety of ways.
Yeah well I'm still going to play alpha and see how it works out. And its definitely just not the spikes, its just the overall "average" of updates that has made me worried if devs really know what made NS so great. Someone in the AVP thread made a good remark: "it feels like the devs of new AVP just collected all ideas that made previous AVP a great game and then trashed them". If a big company like Sega can make a such mistake, I don't see how UWE couldn't do it. Just see what kind of an uprising taser caused.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are obviously reasonable reasons to be concerned about spikes, but porting NS1 is never going to be a solution. Hyperbolic statements aren't going to help though and a lot of the criticism is framed in an entirely ridiculous manner. It's really irritating to come on the boards and have to respond to the latest person to say, "I didn't like X about Y in the recent news, NS2 is going down the wrong path and it's doooooooomed!!!!!1" No one is going to be convinced by that language. Especially when there's literally zero evidence that UWE has somehow lost their memory of NS1. Most of the principals at UWE have been involved since the beginning of NS1. It's completely irrational to assume they haven't followed the same learning curve as members of the competitive community. It's completely irrational to assume that the same people that made the "most balanced and awesome version" will not take any lessons from that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a lots of history that you probably don't know about and deep wounds I'm not going to touch here, but I'd say puzl is mostly responsible for us having such a balanced and great game. He is not a NS2 developer. In the second place, this is more like a nail in the coffin. Like I said, I've followed the updates for years, and there're dozens of other news that have made me if not facepalm, atleast negatively surprised. In the third place, are you now trying to say me or Fana didn't have reason behind our arguments?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So little we know yet, how can you judge anything being a mistake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I'm not saying its a 100% mistake but to quote Han Solo: "I have a bad feeling about this". I played 1.04 lerk and I've played 3.x Lerk, latter is awesome, former is not.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd have to agree for the conservative thought and get umbra as Alt-fire, but how do we know if it is still useful gameplaywise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well as long as you need to kill aliens, umbra will be extra armor for aliens, so it should be useful.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I share the desire of people who want NS2 to be a similarly paced competitive game like NS1, but there are ways of being heard that don't involve whining. Maybe in Finland whining is how they spur development, but where I grew up we were brought up to find constructive solutions to problems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said if people have <b>reasoned</b> arguments about the development path, they should say them. Just because the response is negative, doesn't mean its whining. The quote was there for extra fun and you took it too literally.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you really need examples on how to behave go back and look at hawthorne's posts in this forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Behave? Excuse me, I haven't insulted anyone. I have given reasoned criticism, there's nothing wrong with that. There's no point of having discussion forums if you cannot take negative feedback.
Also from my perspective by taking away the lerk bite the game loses it's dynamic at certain point, the more static and non skill involving the game is the sooner it will get boring, why bother playing when you can't rly develop your skills anymore and your lerk role comes only to gasing and shooting spikes from vent for another 15 minutes...? it's much better to do a dinner and invite your friends then waste your time in that vent ; D
does that mean i cannot sit in the vent for 15 minutes?
You're free to sit there all game if you like.
surely i can but where's the skill part,fun and improvement here?
Sorry, it wasn't clear but most of that post wasn't directed specifically at you or in response to your post. Negative feedback is probably the most informative part of public input in game design, so I'm in agreement with you.
I know puzl and others were instrumental in many of the changes in NS and I was a part of the 1.5 beta veteran program debacle so I know exactly when NS had its "teachable moment" (does Charlie drink beer?) but the people that were steering the ship throughout the development are the same people designing NS2, plus it's obvious that many of the other people responsible for the production of NS are still active in the community. Not to mention how there seems to be an assumption that every version of NS prior to 3.2 wasn't fun at all.
Again, I am not opposed to criticism at all, but most of the criticism to these reveal posts seem to lack any context or even awareness that there is context that has bearing on the argument. I suppose I am just stubborn in my desire for <i>reasonable</i> discussion.
I'll remember to spikekill Zek as many times from vents as possible if I ever see you on NS2 Alpha servers!
<!--quoteo(post=1756339:date=Mar 2 2010, 03:57 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Mar 2 2010, 03:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can understand concerns over competitive depth but some of you guys are unbelievably resistant to change of any kind for any reason. You may be satisfied with a straight port with prettier graphics but most of us stopped playing NS because we've had our fill of it and want something new. Appeasing only the hardcore competitive players with no concern for keeping the game fun for everybody else is the best way to make a flop. There's absolutely no reason to think that it's impossible for spikes to have competitive depth, and as long as it's possible then that can be tweaked during beta and beyond. That's how the 3.0 Lerk came about in the first place, remember?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it took 3 years for 3.0 Lerk to come in. You've got to remember that NS2 is a commercial game. How many commercial games have big changes after release? I'm not saying new is bad, on the contrary change is good, but I don't like lifeforms turning more monotonic and losing skill dimensions. I'm not saying this is necessarily going to happen, but I'm just not that optimistic as you are.
The real reason I'm worried is because if the classic mode is horrible as competitive, getting as many people to competitive as TF2 did, will be hard. We probably have to do a pro mod for NS2, but only a minority will know about it.
I'll remember to spikekill Zek as many times from vents as possible if I ever see you on NS2 Alpha servers!
Yes, it took 3 years for 3.0 Lerk to come in. You've got to remember that NS2 is a commercial game. How many commercial games have big changes after release? I'm not saying new is bad, on the contrary change is good, but I don't like lifeforms turning more monotonic and losing skill dimensions. I'm not saying this is necessarily going to happen, but I'm just not that optimistic as you are.
The real reason I'm worried is because if the classic mode is horrible as competitive, <b>getting as many people to competitive as TF2 did</b>, will be hard. We probably have to do a pro mod for NS2, but only a minority will know about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is so surreal. I remember several months ago people using TF2 as an example of a game that is designed for the lowest common denominator and a game that is void of skill.