Alpha
NeoSniper
Join Date: 2005-06-02 Member: 52976Members
Join Date: 2005-06-02 Member: 52976Members
<div class="IPBDescription">What's enough for the first release?</div>To go with the exciting twitter about the alpha I wanted to start a thread discussing what do you want/expect from the first alpha release.
I'm thinking one map and not all of the units or full tech trees. Perhaps the higher tier stuff like the Fade,Onos, Exo, and Siege don't need to be in the first release (and can come a bit later). I think it a good idea to focus on the early game features IF that could make the alpha come sooner.
The downside is having people get a bad impression of the game if the alpha if not feature complete. Seems disclaimers are never enough.
The upside is I... errr... WE can start play testing the early units/weapons and that could help guide the development of the higher tier counters.
I'm thinking one map and not all of the units or full tech trees. Perhaps the higher tier stuff like the Fade,Onos, Exo, and Siege don't need to be in the first release (and can come a bit later). I think it a good idea to focus on the early game features IF that could make the alpha come sooner.
The downside is having people get a bad impression of the game if the alpha if not feature complete. Seems disclaimers are never enough.
The upside is I... errr... WE can start play testing the early units/weapons and that could help guide the development of the higher tier counters.
Comments
Also, we have neither date nor guarantee of Alpha release yet, so don't get too excited. Learn meditation or cooking or something.
Simply put: GAMEPLAY
The alpha should play exactly like the final game (or pretty close.) Incomplete upgrades or tech trees, unfinished levels, missing animations, whatever. The only thing that is necessary is that players can join a server and play the game as it's intended to be played when its final. That's the definition of "alpha."
Actually that's the exact opposite of Alpha, alpha versions are feature-incomplete by definition. We won't have that during the Beta either, as UW said the game is always subject to change based on feedback and analysis.
<!--quoteo(post=1750273:date=Feb 2 2010, 02:12 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Feb 2 2010, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1750273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually that's the exact opposite of Alpha, alpha versions are feature-incomplete by definition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The beta is a fully-functioning game, the purpose of which is to nail down all the possible bugs. Or at least it should be. Sometimes a beta could be an almost fully functioning game with just some of the minor features missing.
That's not an alpha, then. The point of Alpha is to test functionality. NS2 gameplay without tech upgrades is still NS2 gameplay, testers will be able to test basic team balance, controls, fun factor, and so on. Even if animations and maps for example aren't complete, you'll still be able to have two teams of players competing within the game's ruleset to ensure the matches are fun at its most basic level. Do you get it now?
If you have, to use your example, only the Human team complete. Alpha testers would be playing Humans versus Humans - in other words, <i>they wouldn't be playing NS2.</i> It would be like testing a totally different game, there would be no point whatsoever.
<!--quoteo(post=1750278:date=Feb 2 2010, 03:00 PM:name=dandi8)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dandi8 @ Feb 2 2010, 03:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1750278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just in case anyone wonders, I'm pretty sure an alpha is everything which is before the beta.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. "Alpha" is a specific development milestone where the core gameplay is functionally complete.
Wwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeee !!
<!--quoteo(post=1750279:date=Feb 2 2010, 06:01 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Feb 2 2010, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1750279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not an alpha, then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I'm saying: it is. Alpha is a feature-incomplete product, often completely unusable by anyone other than developers with intricate knowledge of the inner workings of the code (albeit this release should be an exception since it's public).
<!--quoteo(post=1750279:date=Feb 2 2010, 06:01 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Feb 2 2010, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1750279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No. "Alpha" is a specific development milestone where the core gameplay is functionally complete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see. No, that'd be Beta - although in our case, it won't represent the final game either.
You've proved yourself wrong with this quote. When game developers talk about "alpha," "beta," etc, they are talking about deliverable products that they give to their publisher in return for payment. There is a deliverable schedule that is agreed upon between the publisher and the developer, "at Alpha you give us this, we test and approve it, we pay you. At beta, you give us this, etc."
If a developer were to ever give a publisher a deliverable which was "completely unusable by anyone" they would not get paid and they would cease to exist as a company. There would be literally no point whatsoever in even calling something like that a milestone. Even the pre-Alpha milestones are playable by the publisher (who has no idea about the "inner workings of the code"), if only as a proof of concept with a single character.
Sure, NS2 doesn't have a publisher, but that's totally irrelevant. We are talking about commonly agreed upon definitions for the terms "alpha" and "beta" which exist in the game dev community. When a developer says "beta" people know what they are talking about, because it's such a commonly used term. Less people know what "alpha" means because Alphas aren't usually released to the public. But rest assured, it's just as clearly defined as Beta.
Sorry for the wall of text, I'm done here.
I have no idea where you're getting any of this from. I would suggest checking some on-line resource for an explanation of software development cycle, other than that, that's just going in circles.
Back to the thread now...
So i say my definition as a developer and what i would expect for ns2 in a alpha.
A alpha shows that the technology works, and helps to find the obvious problems in the basic technology (in that case mainly the engine, editor + lua scripting).
It's far from feature complete, but usualy it is here to test the basics, so that the feature are missing, can be built on a solid base (in that case, the engine works for most graphic cards, the lua scripts won't crash the engine etc).
So i expect the following from the alpha:
beeing able to play a marine with a basic gun and a skulk(mainly to test wall climbing). perhaps a lerk, but thats not so important.
Then i expect the commander mode to be present, even if not feature complete, at least here to test the maps as a commander.
Perhaps basic network support, but because the server question isn't really answered yet i don't expect this in a public alpha
Surely networking should be included in "the basics" of an online multiplayer game?
some places it is basic tech working (basic lighting, geo test levels, with most of the engine working in a preliminary state)
some places it is 100% feature complete (all engine functionality working in a basic state, all levels blocked out, scripting in basic state, script in first draft, art in placeholder state (but in game))
some places it is varying in between.
just depends on who is defining ALPHA.
indeed, i was hesitant to put it because of the server question. i'm just not sure that they want to release the server part of the code, and i'm not sure that they will have their own server (how many of them would be needed?). So i would understand that this would not be in a public alpha (but surely it has to be in a internal alpha).
It's far from feature complete, but usualy it is here to test the basics, so that the feature are missing, can be built on a solid base (in that case, the engine works for most graphic cards, the lua scripts won't crash the engine etc).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. Maybe the definitions of development releases have indeed shifted today...
<!--quoteo(post=1750293:date=Feb 2 2010, 06:54 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Feb 2 2010, 06:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1750293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Surely networking should be included in "the basics" of an online multiplayer game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course. However, there is much more to multiplayer than the networking libraries. Being able to connect to a server through a complex command line operation would be the more favourable scenario, however I'm sure we'll be getting either something better or nothing at all since it's a public release.
- Running around in your Map as Marine and Skulk
- Maybe a simple Building Possibility
- A gun and teeth to get some feel
- Simple Code for various things
- A bridge to all the tools so you can use them within the game
and of course - the gorge BELLYSLIDE.
Just go and start a thread about What is an alpha.
PS. Still not sure what is a troll. All I see in my head is a orc-like gnome with a fancy hat (Yes a hat why not?)
On a more serious note, what I expect from the alpha, is simply put a good alpha release. It seems that their goal is just about that. "Small, polished and playable" certainly means to me that it will have multiplayer capabilities, the main features of the game mechanics, and less bugs about the main frame (graphic reports from the spark editor, etc)
Of course. However, there is much more to multiplayer than the networking libraries. Being able to connect to a server through a complex command line operation would be the more favourable scenario, however I'm sure we'll be getting either something better or nothing at all since it's a public release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think the term "verticle slice" is used for that stage. Basic tech working, minimal of gameplay up (enough to show the promise of the game) and an excersize in determining problems with the underlying components of the tools used to create the game to plan out the schedule for the rest of the production process. in NS i would assume a verticle slice would be basic marine, basic skulk, 2-3 tech options on each side. 1 alternate fire, basic (probably command line) multiplayer, 1 2-3 room map, and more than likley crash prone if you stray outside of the intended game walkthrough.
completely different.
As for what the UWE team will be releasing. It is very early, I honestly don't know exactly what's making it in or not. Like I said though, it is a very *early* release. This is a reward for anyone who has ordered the game and spent the extra money. The team is allowing these individuals to be able to play with what the team is currently working on (the open development idea). Don't expect the full, stripped down game here guys.
I know no matter what the team releases, some of you will feel let down. Just keep in mind that they are releasing something for you guys to play with, rather than nothing at all, thanks.
It's probably more that developers just lie.
They say it's 'pre alpha' when it's actually a tech demo designed to look as good as possible and hide all possible bugs, basically a very limited demonstration with all of the polish you'd expect from a final product as long as you don't let anyone actually play it or tell it to do anything it isn't heavily tested to do. Something halfway between a game and an interactive cutscene.
Another possible interpretation that Imma go ahead and put down here, don't start criticising till I shut up kay?
Firstly, comparison between one piece of speculation and another based on a rough sketch of what companies have done with alpha/beta that YOU have seen, regardless of the fact most non-indie corps tend not to do alphas, thus causing innacuracies in opinions seems quite skewed here. Let's take the biggest example: UW/Wolfire.
Firstly, Overgrowth is a Singleplayer-oriented game. Therefore, an alpha that is a map-editor + testable envrioment = more than satisfactory, since once you confirmed you got everything you think you thought up is in the editor and functions more or less as intended in the testing enviroment, you instantly progress to the Beta stage, once the maps/story/cutscenes are complete to rub everything against everything to make sure Turner (the rabbit who you play as in the retail campaign) doesn't stick to a wall, bounce 500 feet into the air or spontanesouly combusts. Once you done that, it's released, and the devs can celebrate.
However, UW has different ideals and development strategies to Wolfire (who I'm not quite as sure about). One important note to make is: NS2 is a Multiplayer-oriented game. As a result, opinion on what alpha/beta should be will be different.
For a start, NS2 has to worry a lot more about netcode, different network setups, desync, latency etc. Although technically we are already in alpha according to Wolfire's take on the development cycle by having a map-editor out, even if a sandbox mode was implemented, it would not allow UW to continue work on NS2 in the same way. Being able to tell that YOU can't walk through walls in your maps won't change the fact that the server may possibly think otherwise due to bad communication issues. Also, if one person crashed in OG, then it would be a simple matter of figuring out why the story had to abruptly end i.e. "Oh, I'll have to start again", but if someone crashed in NS2, there's plenty more implications such as; Is the com chair stuck shut now? Did 8 other players suddenly crash? Is there a leaning tower of armouries due to desync/disconnection? etc. i.e. "FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU"
</general ramble><bulletpoint ideas>
My interpretation on what the alpha/beta will be like based on UW's blog and twitter entries:
Pre-alpha/Alpha Engine: Complete the map editor, so a map can be completed and can be playable to have somewhere to test.
- NS2 is not tested at all at this stage.
Alpha NS2/Beta Engine: Ensure NS2 can install on as many systems as possible.
- Ensure the engine can install and run "mod: NS2" content (save vs. missing texture/props/FX)
- Ensure that the dedicated server tool can function on non-dev hardware, correct issues that will occur.
- Stress test netcode over the Internet (save vs. mass disconnect and especially frequent desync issues)
- Ensure physics work as intended on all clients (i.e. "If I shoot this box, does everyone see it move to block the door? Or am I the only one who can see why you can't walk though?)
- Stress test multiple spawned entities (save vs. Gorge Pile Spam Exploit)
- Stress test hitscan spam (in other words, 32 player shootouts. :D)
- Stress test anything else that involves everyone doing something usually insignificant under normal gameplay, but may suddenly cause severe problems if performed occasinally frequently. (save vs. Infantry Portal Teleport To HELL)
Criteria for moving on: Alpha NS2 - All players can perform EVERY SINGLE action WITHOUT causing a crash in virtually every conceivable situation (within a reasonable time frame). Note: This will require ALL NS2 content to be available, however this does not mean anything has to work as intended i.e. Alien cooldowns may not necessarily be forced. Marines can instantly receive additional resources for stress tests.
- UW completes missing animations/animated decals/textures/anything minor or eye-candy that therefore would not have a particularly major effect on any rule-set based gameplay i.e. Marines Vs. Aliens as opposed to The Sims 3: In Space.
Beta Engine - The intended max number of clients can connect and perform all tasks without severe errors, mass disconnects and system crashes.
- (Optional) support for server-side plugins/mods by testing HyperNS2 e.g. Rifles can be set to have ammo capacity and rate of fire OVER 9000 etc. to stress test non-vanilla capabilities.
Engine can effectively become retail when NS2 becomes beta, as it is tested to prove reliable enough to develop other games and total conversion mods.
Beta NS2 - With most severe bugs and technical incompatibilities removed, scripts and LUA is tested and tweaked based on gameplay statistics and feedback.
- Some bugs may remain and be ironed out, but only of priority if new gameplay balances cause a sudden influx of new bugs that mostly interfere with any form of gameplay. i.e. Marines can reload instantly by switching weapons etc.
- All NS2 content is now tested in ways originally intended to be. Alien cooldowns are forced and resource collection is now monitored closely.
Beta NS2 will go retail a short period of time (about a week or two) is cleared without something severely going ###### up, most likely a new exploit appearing that causes instant steamrolls.
</bulletpoint ideas><tl;dnr>
To sum up, if you lump NS2 and Spark as two separate entities into the same testing time frame like above, you can save time by using NS2 primarily as a means to establish the engine's stabilty before applying any balancing or changes that resemble a playable game mode.
However, I think that the alpha must be feature complete (in that you can spawn anything and everything and be able to interact with it) or else you introduce new ways for exploits and bugs that prove harmful to engine stabilty later when you come to include it e.g. You can now spam armouries and infantry portals; Hooray for you. Now we go into Beta and we'll put in Heavy Armour and the Grenade Launcher attachment. Whoops, looks like bunnyhopping "lockdown" heavies spamming nades caused problems, and especially so when placing that 27th armoury caused everyone's systems to lock-up or disconnect, which will put you back to Alpha until this is fixed.
In other words: Spawn a mountain of content, placeables and spawnables, and have it all crash to the ground before my eyes without breaking my machine, and I'll let you start playing with it properly then.<tl;dnr>
Bollox, ninja'd about a dozen times. Slow typing and jumbled thinking today. :/
<!--quoteo(post=1750236:date=Feb 2 2010, 01:20 AM:name=Ahnteis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ahnteis @ Feb 2 2010, 01:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1750236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Playing the alpha is a chance to give feedback during development. If you're thinking of a demo, you're thinking wrong. Generally if you pre-order and get access to an early build of the game [...]
So if you're on the fence about getting NS2, don't pre-order! Wait for it to be finished and then decide. If, on the other hand, you want to support UW for whatever reason; then join with those of us who pre-ordered as a means of supporting UW.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So if you really want to know what the alpha is going to be like, did anyone remember NS1 ? So maybe we can expect something similar ... ?
I guess we all can agree that if we preordered for the alpha and tools that we want to help UW with their progress, because we love NS so much and not only to play and have fun months before any non-preorderer.