<!--quoteo(post=1749547:date=Jan 28 2010, 09:46 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jan 28 2010, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is nor the thread or forum to discuss TF2's failings as a shameless pandering to the casual masses. If you're interested in the arguments and the problems facing PC gaming in general, read the following article: <a href="http://pcgamingcorner.com/wordpress/?p=1851" target="_blank">http://pcgamingcorner.com/wordpress/?p=1851</a>. Otherwise let's keep the focus of this thread on making sure NS2 stays as far away as possible from the casual quagmire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your the one who brought up tf2 being so bad lol. Stop trying to make this game such a HARDCORE EXTREMEFEST. It wont be, ns1 isnt, ns2 is going to be more casual, which is better because im sick of seeing people in servers(the like 5 that are even played on) always getting yelled at because its there first time playing. Its anoyoying listening to the teens thinking there hot ###### because they have nothing else there good at besides ns1 so they go around acting like everyone else is doing everything else wrong while there the only ones right.
I dont wanna see ns2 ending up like that so people like you can do the same thing. I dont wanna see ns2 be full of rage######s who yells at anyone other than themselves in the com chair. I defentitly dont wanna see anyone think there going to be Pro at ns2 because there not because a lot of things that "HardCore ns1 pro action stars" use that are in ns1 (fps glitch/bhop) wont be in the game, the guns and aliens act differnt and the game itself will be differnt.
If you dont wanna see black armor renegade heres my suggestion. Make a skin for it when it comes out to make it green. How about that? or you can just close your eyes when playing so you dont see it. Either one is fantastic. PC gaming isnt facing any problems, hardcore players that play like 15 hours a day are getting mad because someone who plays 3 hours a day can woop there ass. Stat ######s and what not are also becoming a problem, casual gaming isnt a issue, its the hardcore players who are an issue because they go around thinking everyone else is wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1749547:date=Jan 28 2010, 10:46 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jan 28 2010, 10:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is nor the thread or forum to discuss TF2's failings as a shameless pandering to the casual masses. If you're interested in the arguments and the problems facing PC gaming in general, read the following article: <a href="http://pcgamingcorner.com/wordpress/?p=1851" target="_blank">http://pcgamingcorner.com/wordpress/?p=1851</a>. Otherwise let's keep the focus of this thread on making sure NS2 stays as far away as possible from the casual quagmire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just read that article (and the one linked about MW2's dedicated server issues) and while it is certainly very skilled writing it left me with the nagging question: Why would I, as a developer, want to tailor my games for an audience that demans and complains more; an audience so elitist that it thinks games should not be made for the stupig masses who play for "fun" instead of winning.
But let's stay with NS. As you pointed out the casual masses are legion in number compaired to their competitive gaming counterparts. Add to that the fact that casuals are less tech savy and interested and like to consume what is presented as long as it is accessible and fun. Now please tell me why NS should not be targeted at these people, considering UWE's goal is to "unite the world through play"? The competitive, interested, technically knowledgable scene can easily mod NS to be game they need, to have the depth and enforced models and whatever. Right now you're only coming off as the guy who wants the devs to possibly scare away potential players in order to have his pure gaming experience tailored to his personal expectations.
Oh well, the flames are spreading. I think I'll derail this some more, since I can't see this thread going anywhere that useful anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1749550:date=Jan 28 2010, 12:19 PM:name=CallMessiah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CallMessiah @ Jan 28 2010, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just read that article (and the one linked about MW2's dedicated server issues) and while it is certainly very skilled writing it left me with the nagging question: Why would I, as a developer, want to tailor my games for an audience that demans and complains more; an audience so elitist that it thinks games should not be made for the stupig masses who play for "fun" instead of winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, generally speaking why anyone wants to make movies that are more complex than "Big Momma's House 3" or music more in depth than some Nickelback, everyone enjoys those, right?
I've seen almost equally much whine from all sides of this thingy. Internet just does that to people, not much you can do about it. Take bhop for example, you'll see equally much counter whine with terrible and repeated arguments whenever it's brought in. In a similar way you'll see public players bashing everyone else whenever they get the chance. People instantly flame commanders in siegemaps and probably I'd get flamed too even though I'm very familiar with the chair and all game mechanics excluding the siegemaps themselves. Once again, that's the wonderful internet for you.
And stop that winning nonsense, I'm tired of it. The organised play exists because it involves challenge and competition, not just competetition. I can win much more in 50 min xmenu buildmenu combat if I want to, but I just don't find it enjoyable. I want to be challenged when I play a game. TF2 is disliked by some people exactly because it doesn't challenge as much as NS does. At that point there's more bias in competetion and it alone isn't as exciting for everyone. I could see myself playing TF2 in a clan for the competition and enjoying it, but there isn't any kind of similar itch to play as I've got for NS for years.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now you're only coming off as the guy who wants the devs to possibly scare away potential players in order to have his pure gaming experience tailored to his personal expectations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> See TF2. It tries to be friendly for everyone, because casual gamers don't like adapting that much. You can do almost anything and get away with it and even score some frags while doing it because of crits and such. Meanwhile a competetive game can set any rules as long as they are fair, interesting, challenging and difficult master. Which one is tailor made and which one isn't?
Haha, sorry, didn't mean to fuel any flames. I probably should have worded some things differently. I didn't intend to insult Renegade or his cause or belittle competitive gaming in general. I like depth in my games as much as any competitive gamer, the only problem I saw with the article and many posts about the subject in general is the whining you pointed out. The attitude doesn't help convey the point which is a serious problem if you're in the minority (which the article argued, serious gamers are). Of course whining is a general internet problem.
I only picked up on the fun/winning argument because it is a come metaphor for the casual/competitive discussion and I thought I had read it in the article. I didn't mean to imply competitive gamers have no fun and don't think its really important for the argument. So, consider the winning nonsense stopped. ;)
A game that appeals to almost everyone can't really be called tailored, can it? Even if it is, it appeals to many people who don't like to adapt. My question remains, why the competitive scene, which is more capable of adapting is so concerned even though the mod tools will allow you to make the game what you need/expect it to be. It just appears to me as if there is no gain in making the vanilla game less accessable so less casuals can play it. Concerning the movies/music argument: I see the validity in that point, but if I dislike "Big Momma's House 3", I can't mod it into a movie with more depth, now can I?
If you feel like continuing the discussion without derailing the thread even more, we could open a new one in OffTopic or Discussions or maybe even General NS2 as I don't want to argue casual/competitive in general but its importance for NS2 given the modability.
<!--quoteo(post=1749547:date=Jan 28 2010, 04:46 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jan 28 2010, 04:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is nor the thread or forum to discuss TF2's failings as a shameless pandering to the casual masses. If you're interested in the arguments and the problems facing PC gaming in general, read the following article: <a href="http://pcgamingcorner.com/wordpress/?p=1851" target="_blank">http://pcgamingcorner.com/wordpress/?p=1851</a>. Otherwise let's keep the focus of this thread on making sure NS2 stays as far away as possible from the casual quagmire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great, a really derogatory and offensive guy making a false dichotomy between casual and 'REAL' gamers. Couple that with the sweeping generalizations he makes to convince me games were somehow of higher quality in the past and not just a way to make money for the developers.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=angry dude)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (angry dude)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With an over-abundant supply of consumer obedience, devs no longer fear failure, or an obligation to duty or loyalty; it seems these virtues, along with the sensible consumer, have gone the way of the trackball in our industry<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^^ Yeah because 'every single video game developer' is just one entity and it has decided collectively to hate the consumer. This guy's problem is with capitalism, not the gaming industry. Games have always been mostly terrible, with the difference now being that EA makes a killing off of them because at least they don't look bad anymore. And honestly, just because a game isn't what <i>you</i> wanted in a game, doesn't somehow immediately render it bad. People like you and this guy just get really angry when things they don't approve of get popular.
Ah, I found a direct complaint of TF2, let's examine this masterstroke of an argument.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=angry dude)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (angry dude)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its cell-shaded cartoon-ish antics have all the dumb-witted charm of a Three Stooges performance at an ADD convention, yet none of the raw gritty fast-paced skill required of its ancestors (leaving fans of the originals thoroughly disappointed - especially given the wait was nearly 10 years). Although centered around visuals that amount to a gimmicky render-hack, it’s not necessarily a poor game (I enjoy the occasional cartoon melee myself), but for ten years of development, we could have expected so much more. Can we hope that these circusy game mechanics and lowbrow antics are just a one-off trend? "<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So he hates the graphics yet thinks the game is actually pretty good, just not as good as the development time should have allowed. That's a really weak complaint. Oh, it's also not as fast paced now because you can't conc jump like a mad mad(this is what I figure he means, he just threw that fast paced comment out there without any further mention). Well I agree, I miss TFC and conc jumping, but TF2 is still a really fun game regardless, so I can't really hold the removal of concussion grenades from the game if valve decided it helped gameplay. I mean I'll disagree and miss concs till the end, but what a minor thing to get in the way of my enjoyment of a game.
Yeah, so this isn't exactly the most compelling article, but I'd love to hear more about TF2 and it's atrocities.
Anyone that thinks that tf2 killed the way tfc was is so wrong on so many levels. It is EXACTLY the same paced game play, more game modes which you dont need to play if you dont like them, and improvements to some classes.(spy/medic) i see no difference except in graphics which i think fit the game perfectly cause if it looked like all the other realistic modern fps it would be stupid and you would complain going invisible with a spy isnt realistic or the way the medic heals is wrong. Biggest change in tfc-tf2 was no grenades thats it.
edit: I see now it is only a single responder who struggles with the swear filter and their capslock key, with some others trying to respond thoughtfully. For the former, it is unsurprising that these sorts of problems plague TF2 <i>supporters</i> specifically and I invite them not to partake in any further discussions if they cannot contribute meaningfully. For the latter, I'll not discuss the article here, but if anyone's so inclined, OT is the place to do it.
As this thread was constructive while we were still discussing <b>NS2</b> grievances, I suggest we return to that point or take the discussion elsewhere.
Maybe you shouldnt have brought tf2 up and all your hate for it. We didnt start talking about it, you did. Now if you wanna complain more about the unrealeased game and all the gimmicks you think it has, why dont you PM max and not start threads like this voicing your own opinion over something so small like the color of armor saying it should basically be non existent because if it were a toggle option, anyone without it would just toggle it off and the show of more support would not be there.
No prizes for guessing why most people you meet seem like total jerks, Renegade.
If you don't want to discuss something, stop bringing it up every second post, and if you want to be treated fairly, stop openly insulting people. It's not that hard.
<!--quoteo(post=1749609:date=Jan 28 2010, 04:53 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Jan 28 2010, 04:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No prizes for guessing why most people you meet seem like total jerks, Renegade. If you don't want to discuss something, stop bringing it up every second post, and if you want to be treated fairly, stop openly insulting people. It's not that hard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nowhere do I mention meeting "total jerks" or not being "treated fairly". Whatever relationship problems you are experiencing are not going to be resolved by projecting them onto others.
Well, I suppose there's no further business to conclude from OP.
Renegade people are hating you more and more with each awful post you put into this thread. I seriously cannot imagine how your going to act once the actual alpha is out and how many things you find wrong with it because its not exactly how you want it.
<!--quoteo(post=1749615:date=Jan 29 2010, 02:26 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Jan 29 2010, 02:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nowhere do I mention meeting "total jerks" or not being "treated fairly".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't have to mention it for it to be any more obvious. You are insufferable.
Comments
your the one who brought up tf2 being so bad lol. Stop trying to make this game such a HARDCORE EXTREMEFEST. It wont be, ns1 isnt, ns2 is going to be more casual, which is better because im sick of seeing people in servers(the like 5 that are even played on) always getting yelled at because its there first time playing. Its anoyoying listening to the teens thinking there hot ###### because they have nothing else there good at besides ns1 so they go around acting like everyone else is doing everything else wrong while there the only ones right.
I dont wanna see ns2 ending up like that so people like you can do the same thing. I dont wanna see ns2 be full of rage######s who yells at anyone other than themselves in the com chair. I defentitly dont wanna see anyone think there going to be Pro at ns2 because there not because a lot of things that "HardCore ns1 pro action stars" use that are in ns1 (fps glitch/bhop) wont be in the game, the guns and aliens act differnt and the game itself will be differnt.
If you dont wanna see black armor renegade heres my suggestion. Make a skin for it when it comes out to make it green. How about that? or you can just close your eyes when playing so you dont see it. Either one is fantastic. PC gaming isnt facing any problems, hardcore players that play like 15 hours a day are getting mad because someone who plays 3 hours a day can woop there ass. Stat ######s and what not are also becoming a problem, casual gaming isnt a issue, its the hardcore players who are an issue because they go around thinking everyone else is wrong.
I just read that article (and the one linked about MW2's dedicated server issues) and while it is certainly very skilled writing it left me with the nagging question: Why would I, as a developer, want to tailor my games for an audience that demans and complains more; an audience so elitist that it thinks games should not be made for the stupig masses who play for "fun" instead of winning.
But let's stay with NS. As you pointed out the casual masses are legion in number compaired to their competitive gaming counterparts. Add to that the fact that casuals are less tech savy and interested and like to consume what is presented as long as it is accessible and fun. Now please tell me why NS should not be targeted at these people, considering UWE's goal is to "unite the world through play"? The competitive, interested, technically knowledgable scene can easily mod NS to be game they need, to have the depth and enforced models and whatever.
Right now you're only coming off as the guy who wants the devs to possibly scare away potential players in order to have his pure gaming experience tailored to his personal expectations.
<!--quoteo(post=1749550:date=Jan 28 2010, 12:19 PM:name=CallMessiah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CallMessiah @ Jan 28 2010, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1749550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just read that article (and the one linked about MW2's dedicated server issues) and while it is certainly very skilled writing it left me with the nagging question: Why would I, as a developer, want to tailor my games for an audience that demans and complains more; an audience so elitist that it thinks games should not be made for the stupig masses who play for "fun" instead of winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, generally speaking why anyone wants to make movies that are more complex than "Big Momma's House 3" or music more in depth than some Nickelback, everyone enjoys those, right?
I've seen almost equally much whine from all sides of this thingy. Internet just does that to people, not much you can do about it. Take bhop for example, you'll see equally much counter whine with terrible and repeated arguments whenever it's brought in. In a similar way you'll see public players bashing everyone else whenever they get the chance. People instantly flame commanders in siegemaps and probably I'd get flamed too even though I'm very familiar with the chair and all game mechanics excluding the siegemaps themselves. Once again, that's the wonderful internet for you.
And stop that winning nonsense, I'm tired of it. The organised play exists because it involves challenge and competition, not just competetition. I can win much more in 50 min xmenu buildmenu combat if I want to, but I just don't find it enjoyable. I want to be challenged when I play a game. TF2 is disliked by some people exactly because it doesn't challenge as much as NS does. At that point there's more bias in competetion and it alone isn't as exciting for everyone. I could see myself playing TF2 in a clan for the competition and enjoying it, but there isn't any kind of similar itch to play as I've got for NS for years.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now you're only coming off as the guy who wants the devs to possibly scare away potential players in order to have his pure gaming experience tailored to his personal expectations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See TF2. It tries to be friendly for everyone, because casual gamers don't like adapting that much. You can do almost anything and get away with it and even score some frags while doing it because of crits and such. Meanwhile a competetive game can set any rules as long as they are fair, interesting, challenging and difficult master. Which one is tailor made and which one isn't?
I only picked up on the fun/winning argument because it is a come metaphor for the casual/competitive discussion and I thought I had read it in the article. I didn't mean to imply competitive gamers have no fun and don't think its really important for the argument. So, consider the winning nonsense stopped. ;)
A game that appeals to almost everyone can't really be called tailored, can it? Even if it is, it appeals to many people who don't like to adapt. My question remains, why the competitive scene, which is more capable of adapting is so concerned even though the mod tools will allow you to make the game what you need/expect it to be. It just appears to me as if there is no gain in making the vanilla game less accessable so less casuals can play it.
Concerning the movies/music argument: I see the validity in that point, but if I dislike "Big Momma's House 3", I can't mod it into a movie with more depth, now can I?
If you feel like continuing the discussion without derailing the thread even more, we could open a new one in OffTopic or Discussions or maybe even General NS2 as I don't want to argue casual/competitive in general but its importance for NS2 given the modability.
Great, a really derogatory and offensive guy making a false dichotomy between casual and 'REAL' gamers. Couple that with the sweeping generalizations he makes to convince me games were somehow of higher quality in the past and not just a way to make money for the developers.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=angry dude)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (angry dude)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With an over-abundant supply of consumer obedience, devs no longer fear failure, or an obligation to duty or loyalty; it seems these virtues, along with the sensible consumer, have gone the way of the trackball in our industry<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^^
Yeah because 'every single video game developer' is just one entity and it has decided collectively to hate the consumer. This guy's problem is with capitalism, not the gaming industry. Games have always been mostly terrible, with the difference now being that EA makes a killing off of them because at least they don't look bad anymore. And honestly, just because a game isn't what <i>you</i> wanted in a game, doesn't somehow immediately render it bad. People like you and this guy just get really angry when things they don't approve of get popular.
Ah, I found a direct complaint of TF2, let's examine this masterstroke of an argument.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=angry dude)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (angry dude)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->its cell-shaded cartoon-ish antics have all the dumb-witted charm of a Three Stooges performance at an ADD convention, yet none of the raw gritty fast-paced skill required of its ancestors (leaving fans of the originals thoroughly disappointed - especially given the wait was nearly 10 years). Although centered around visuals that amount to a gimmicky render-hack, it’s not necessarily a poor game (I enjoy the occasional cartoon melee myself), but for ten years of development, we could have expected so much more. Can we hope that these circusy game mechanics and lowbrow antics are just a one-off trend? "<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So he hates the graphics yet thinks the game is actually pretty good, just not as good as the development time should have allowed. That's a really weak complaint. Oh, it's also not as fast paced now because you can't conc jump like a mad mad(this is what I figure he means, he just threw that fast paced comment out there without any further mention). Well I agree, I miss TFC and conc jumping, but TF2 is still a really fun game regardless, so I can't really hold the removal of concussion grenades from the game if valve decided it helped gameplay. I mean I'll disagree and miss concs till the end, but what a minor thing to get in the way of my enjoyment of a game.
Yeah, so this isn't exactly the most compelling article, but I'd love to hear more about TF2 and it's atrocities.
As this thread was constructive while we were still discussing <b>NS2</b> grievances, I suggest we return to that point or take the discussion elsewhere.
If you don't want to discuss something, stop bringing it up every second post, and if you want to be treated fairly, stop openly insulting people. It's not that hard.
If you don't want to discuss something, stop bringing it up every second post, and if you want to be treated fairly, stop openly insulting people. It's not that hard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nowhere do I mention meeting "total jerks" or not being "treated fairly". Whatever relationship problems you are experiencing are not going to be resolved by projecting them onto others.
Well, I suppose there's no further business to conclude from OP.
You don't have to mention it for it to be any more obvious. You are insufferable.
If you lot continue to hurl insults at one another you'll be spending a little time on the naughty step.