<!--quoteo(post=1740997:date=Nov 27 2009, 04:17 PM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Drown @ Nov 27 2009, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In terms of protection of an idea, I think that is ok, provided you intend to make a profit from the idea. None of us map designers here intend to, and thus there is no reason to have a form of copy protection on maps. Even still, I think we can all learn more from each other by sharing map files easily in order to show how and why we did certain things.
Shakespeare was a plagiarist, that does mean he stole, that doesn't mean he did make it better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, but the idea of protection is to prevent others that would steal your work. I imagine it would be quite easy to share it with others.
<!--quoteo(post=1740914:date=Nov 27 2009, 11:51 AM:name=Kerotan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kerotan @ Nov 27 2009, 11:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did no one play WC3+TFT?
Thats a perfect example of what can go wrong when people get there hands on maps with no protection.
I agree 100% on map-protection, the mappers have every right to stop people copying there hard work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.
Look, I have a map that claims to have the same title, but it is slightly different because I added some random hack only I know. Now watch it propagate!
The only custom map to really keep its integrity has been DotA because they host an official version at a website and all downloaders are kicked (and you run like hell from a server where yous tart downloading from).
That isn't entirely accurate - there are several (a dozen or so) maps that maintain a solid website version.. Dota just happens to be the most popular of those. I think that the challenge of mapping, even with the amazingly useful extrude tool and other speedups, makes map theft and re-mapping unfeasible. Mapping in Warcraft however is almost droolingly simple to modify and manipulate. A strong NS mapping website with a registry of maps and users could fix all that if you were still concerned... but really if someone stole my map and made it better I would thank them, not sue them.
<!--quoteo(post=1740993:date=Nov 27 2009, 04:11 PM:name=Fortune)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fortune @ Nov 27 2009, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740993"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or maybe we just don't want to give people the hassle of going the long way around to get into a map we create. If someone wants to get into a map, they'll get into a map. It's easy enough to put your own signature in a map, any kind of proof that you're the original creator.
If someone ripped from my map I would just name and shame. No one likes a ripoff merchant.
Of course the best solution would be optional, even if I disagree that it's neccessary, but whatever keeps people happy. At the end of the day this is the internet and the only way to protect anything of yours is to not put it on here in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While it would be lovely to exist in a world where such protection isn't necessary, human beings are naturally ######s, and love to take what isn't theirs to take.
As Max pointed out, it will likely be on optional flag that mappers can toggle for their public release versions. Having the option absolutely does not prevent you or anyone else releasing their full map content to be opened in Spark, but does give the "peace-of-mind" to those mappers who do want to keep development content private.
Copy protection is not evil. How it can be applied can certainly <b>be</b> evil, but is a necessary tool to have available. Don't blame the gun, blame the shooter, etc.
Copy protection for maps is pointless and generally for 16-year-old whiners who will never release anything.
The Unreal mapping community has produced far more creative and better-looking maps than the HL1/2 community ever has and there have been no problems with anyone stealing. They are usually more grown up also.
If you create a great map and release it, anyone stealing parts of it will be noticed and their forum posts removed. You can prove it much easier by comparing them inside the editor to the exact grid point.
<!--quoteo(post=1740936:date=Nov 27 2009, 06:40 PM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Insane @ Nov 27 2009, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People have the right to a level of creative control over their own content.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought maps were the content of the game designer? You can't sell a map, it's not your content.
I understand what every one is talking about but honestly I couldn't care less if some one tried to steal something of mine. It's flattering they think it's really worth that and well, they'll only get a backlash of abuse from the community.
<!--quoteo(post=1741016:date=Nov 27 2009, 10:01 PM:name=Daxx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Daxx @ Nov 27 2009, 10:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While it would be lovely to exist in a world where such protection isn't necessary, human beings are naturally ######s, and love to take what isn't theirs to take.
As Max pointed out, it will likely be on optional flag that mappers can toggle for their public release versions. Having the option absolutely does not prevent you or anyone else releasing their full map content to be opened in Spark, but does give the "peace-of-mind" to those mappers who do want to keep development content private.
Copy protection is not evil. How it can be applied can certainly <b>be</b> evil, but is a necessary tool to have available. Don't blame the gun, blame the shooter, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I seem to live in that world, I honestly have never encountered someone copying my map or anyone elses. Sure it's just my experience, but it seems people get a bit scared of the invisible bogey men waiting to steal all of their precious work. Sure it happens but I can't see it being more than a small threat.
Like I said on page three, which I assume you didn't read, because you've quoted me from earlier in the thread. I'd be fine with an optional 'protection system', the thought of that didn't occur to me until it was suggested. But I disagree that it would stop someone copying your map if they really wanted to. People always find a way, so I find the concept kind of useless... but if it gives you peace of mind.
If people wanted to know how I did something all they'd have to do is ask and I would show them <i>exactly</i> how I did it. Map protection or not, people will learn to imitate what interests them.
<!--quoteo(post=1741034:date=Nov 27 2009, 05:36 PM:name=Fortune)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fortune @ Nov 27 2009, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741034"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like I said on page three, which I assume you didn't read, because you've quoted me from earlier in the thread. I'd be fine with an optional 'protection system', the thought of that didn't occur to me until it was suggested. But I disagree that it would stop someone copying your map if they really wanted to. People always find a way, so I find the concept kind of useless... but if it gives you peace of mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amusing. You might want to reread your own quote, as it was in fact from page three containing your opinion on optional copyright. And you know what they say about assumptions...
<!--quoteo(post=1741037:date=Nov 27 2009, 10:41 PM:name=Daxx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Daxx @ Nov 27 2009, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Amusing. You might want to reread your own quote, as it was in fact from page three containing your opinion on optional copyright. And you know what they say about assumptions...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, you're right. I should [i]really[i/] get some sleep.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1741033:date=Nov 27 2009, 10:32 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thaldarin @ Nov 27 2009, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741033"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought maps were the content of the game designer? You can't sell a map, it's not your content.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is basically what I'm talking about. It doesn't just apply to maps, it applies to everything. The people who created the props will have their own restrictions, just as the person who uniquely arranges them (and many other assets) into a working, playable map will have restrictions on how that is used. People have the right to control (to an extent) their own content, and if it includes other peoples' content then they need to comply with their wishes. A playable map is your content, but you can't sell it if you're using other people's content and they've said that you can't.
For myself, I'm not overly fussed whether or not my maps might be able to be copied. What I find bizarre is that anybody should choose to get outraged over what other people do with their own creations.
<!--quoteo(post=1740914:date=Nov 27 2009, 01:51 PM:name=Kerotan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kerotan @ Nov 27 2009, 01:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did no one play WC3+TFT?
Thats a perfect example of what can go wrong when people get there hands on maps with no protection.
I agree 100% on map-protection, the mappers have every right to stop people copying there hard work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I used to make maps for TFT before I realized that I hate everyone on Battle.net. I created a map that was popular for about a month (Deer Hunters, it was similar to sheep tag but it's not soul-draining to be a shepherd/wolf) and within the third game of hosting the map for people to download it/try it, I had one dude go "Sirot stole this map from me! I have a much better version of this and blah blah blah" and he had a plant in place to agree with him ("ya, Sirot is hack" and son). Then he leaves the game in a grand exit, probably only to realize that I used mapLocker (or something like that) to copy protect my map and potentially avoided my one-month-only popular map being pinched by a jerk.
There is a place for open source stuff. Something like a server-side modification of a game (e.g a. Sourcemod Plug-in or potentially basic LUA modifications) needs transparency so the plugin author does not malicious stuff through the plugin to the server admin or players. I don't think maps is a place for it.
Seriously, if someone ripped my work, I'd love it as it means I did something good! But hey, if you have a site hosting the file, threads talking about it in on official forums and what-not. Stress Less.
People will shoot down the imitator for what they are and they'll loose a lot of cred in the community. Only a small minority will play the ripped version too.
<!--quoteo(post=1741068:date=Nov 27 2009, 06:48 PM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Insane @ Nov 27 2009, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For myself, I'm not overly fussed whether or not my maps might be able to be copied. What I find bizarre is that anybody should choose to get outraged over what other people do with their own creations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. The only people who are opposing this must be: 1.) Someone who intends to take someones map, change a thing or two and claim it for their own. 2.) Someone whose never put any good amount of time into mapping. 3.) Someone who is just here to troll.
It's not about money, or eFame, or any of this derivative, played-down crap. It's about putting your time and effort into something unique and artistic... and then someone else claiming it for their own. If you want to be generous and share your map with others, that is fine, we've always had that kind of option. But it's just ridiculous to say people should be denied the option to keep their map creations personal.
Max has given us all the information we need. Stripping out the information that Spark Editor needs will probably be all the protection we need/want.
I will now request my thread be closed, but remembered by the community. I believe all constructive discussion has been exhausted.
I think creator/contributor attribution protection is great, but not content protection.
Keeping maps open and editable would serve to create a stronger community of map makers, imo. Giving optional edit protections probably wouldn't hurt, though, as long a decent amount were open. It's a great way for new mappers to learn and have fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1741093:date=Nov 28 2009, 02:36 AM:name=WhiteZero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(WhiteZero @ Nov 28 2009, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly. The only people who are opposing this must be: 1.) Someone who intends to take someones map, change a thing or two and claim it for their own. 2.) Someone whose never put any good amount of time into mapping. 3.) Someone who is just here to troll.
It's not about money, or eFame, or any of this derivative, played-down crap. It's about putting your time and effort into something unique and artistic... and then someone else claiming it for their own. If you want to be generous and share your map with others, that is fine, we've always had that kind of option. But it's just ridiculous to say people should be denied the option to keep their map creations personal.
Max has given us all the information we need. Stripping out the information that Spark Editor needs will probably be all the protection we need/want.
I will now request my thread be closed, but remembered by the community. I believe all constructive discussion has been exhausted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I spent years on a map once, the final version only took a few months but I redid it like three or four times.
I still think it's silly to demand protection or be protective of your work.
Stripping out unneeded information from a file is logical to reduce the file size, but there should be a way to reacquire it in order to view the source of any map, so that you can look at it and pick it apart and see how it's done and use the techniques and perhaps some of the values/prefabs in your own.
It usually takes a while to get a good feel for how to make good lights and things so giving new mappers the ability to use existing ones makes sense, same goes for things like environmental effects and optimisation. You can't simply get this info from playing the level, being able to see the construction is useful.
<!--quoteo(post=1740867:date=Nov 27 2009, 05:44 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Nov 27 2009, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seems the non-mapper's don't get this.
Maps take months of hard work to make. If they can be freely opened in their editable form, then you WILL have a-holes who go into them, take out entire rooms or even the entire map, tweak some stupid little piece and act like it's their own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you don't <b>enjoy</b> creating a map, then don't make it ! We're more than happy to take your place. For some people, creation is its own reward. If you feel you have to be compensated for your work, go work on next Call of Duty.
I'm baffled by the arrogance and selfishness of people who want to have monopoly on their ideas. Since times immemorial, creation is based on inspiration (read: plagiarism !) and that is <b>good</b>. You won't tell me the map you create is 100% your idea, there's no such thing ! It's composed of building blocks called <i>ideas</i>, which come from movies like Aliens, buildings you've seen, photos availalble online, dreams and other stuff. It doesn't matter if it's new painting or quantum physics theory - you're always building on work of others. To try to make this process one-sided is very ######ish.
I would boycott an author who uses any form of copyright for his map.
I think authors should get attribution, but that's it. Unknown Worlds (or someone else) could create an official registry of maps to make sure credit is given where it's due. And
<!--QuoteBegin-"WhiteZero"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("WhiteZero")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is nothing like DRM for games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is just like DRM. It's about removing value for no reason. If people plagiarize my map and take best ideas from it, it's great. This means I'm a good map maker. Within the community, it's the equivalent of being quoted in a science paper.
<!--quoteo(post=1740816:date=Nov 27 2009, 08:36 AM:name=WhiteZero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(WhiteZero @ Nov 27 2009, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sense Spark Maps don't need to be compiled, what kind of security will be implemented to prevent people from ripping off your hard work on a map? Will maps be actually compiled, just only when completed and distributed? Will there be some sort of encryption implemented? Anything?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Open source maps would be better for the community as a whole.
This is a suspicion of mine, but i believe the only reason NS1 had so many CUSTOM (i.e. not vanilla) maps is because it was a half life mod (duh), and also because of the mod svencoop which i think created a large number of custom map makers, which in turn resulted in many custom maps for many half life mods.
NS2 is a closed eco system because it will not be a FREE mod on a popular base-game like halflife 2. (excuse any similarity the developers make to have their modding tools function similarly to half life 2 tools :P)
For the sake of having more then a handful of custom maps (and avoiding the nightmare of every NS2 server being vanilla), then i think it's a requirement that all maps be opensource unlocked for the sake of the community.
<!--quoteo(post=1741126:date=Nov 28 2009, 12:15 AM:name=borsuk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(borsuk @ Nov 28 2009, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you don't <b>enjoy</b> creating a map, then don't make it ! We're more than happy to take your place. For some people, creation is its own reward. If you feel you have to be compensated for your work, go work on next Call of Duty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I absolutely love creating maps. I did so for 4 years and then became a professional. I only feel the need to be compensated for my work that is sold. If I make an NS2 map and UWE doesn't buy it, I don't expect compensation whatsoever; just like all my other maps, the 'creation was its own reward'.
This, however, is almost irrelevant to the topic. For the small portion of the debate that should be money-focused, yes, it's wrong for people to rip off of mappers who are perhaps beta-testing their map in the hopes of getting it official, unless they <u>choose</u> to make it open-source.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would boycott an author who uses any form of copyright for his map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then boycott every retail game that doesn't allow custom content creation. You'll be limited to some of the best games out there (Valve and COD up to WaW come to mind), but you'll have to skip a whole ton of awesome games. It's a developer's choice, and by trying to take away map protection (which is standard in many engines, such as Hammer, even if it's not intentional), you're taking away that choice.
From my perspective, I'd be absolutely open to making any of my maps open-source... once they've reached an adequate level of community awareness. But definitely not while it's still in beta, and 10x especially so if I'm hoping the map becomes official. People can get their inspiration from it once it's in the credits. Other designers might want to have it open-source from the very beginning, but that should be their choice, not the only option.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is just like DRM. It's about removing value for no reason. If people plagiarize my map and take best ideas from it, it's great. This means I'm a good map maker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. This would only be 'removing value' if it's at the direct cost of the designer. If people actually 'take the best ideas from your map' but actually made it into their own, like I did with so many NS maps into Ns_Nexus, that's no problem. But you don't need the source to do that, you just need to simply look at the map. Whereas, if the map is forcibly open-sourced, this can become outright theft. A perfect example was given a few posts before this, and if you think this doesn't happen (though often in much smaller scales), you're simply ignorant.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Within the community, it's the equivalent of being quoted in a science paper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Within the actual designer's community, it's the equivalent of being plagiarized in a science paper, not 'quoted'. Which leads to science students being suspended and expelled.
<!--quoteo(post=1741134:date=Nov 28 2009, 01:03 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FocusedWolf @ Nov 28 2009, 01:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Open source maps would be better for the community as a whole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They would be, and I'm sure many designers are like me and, if I were to get a level made official, would have little issue with making it open-source. Some might make it open-source beforehand. But personally, I want my levels to be as locked as possible up until that point. But I still hold to the opinion that anything you can really steal from a map, you can steal from playing it in-game; it just takes a lot more work and you become a real level designer in the process.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a suspicion of mine, but i believe the only reason NS1 had so many CUSTOM (i.e. not vanilla) maps is because it was a half life mod (duh), and also because of the mod svencoop which i think created a large number of custom map makers, which in turn resulted in many custom maps for many half life mods.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is rather off-topic, but I also disagree with this. I played Svenco-op for about an hour and thought it was alright. But CS quickly became the biggest mod and then held that title even up until now. On FPSBanana, Svenco-op is listed as having 37 custom maps, whereas CS:1 has 12,000 (and CS:S has 19,000, dayum).
Plus, I started on CS, so hah :P
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is a closed eco system because it will not be a FREE mod on a popular base-game like halflife 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagree again. NS2 can't be a 'closed ecosystem', since it encompasses both the active NS1 community and those becoming active again because of NS2's progress.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the sake of having more then a handful of custom maps (and avoiding the nightmare of every NS2 server being vanilla), then i think it's a requirement that all maps be opensource unlocked for the sake of the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you not seen the Post Your Screenshots thread yet? Tell me how long it's been since the editor's been out. Feel free to count the number of unique people who have posted about using the editor too. And it's been 4 days.
And btw, servers being vanilla isn't a level design issue, it's a LUA scripter's issue. They're totally different fields.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
ok i make it simple. this debate is stupid for various reasons already mentioned.
To make it even more simple, if there is a encryption or anything similar, it will for obvious reasons not work, so i will create a easy to use application that decrypts whatever a map. so don't waste your time on something like that. (i really mean it, breaking stuff like that would be a nice little challenge).
I really don't understand the opposition to this, I personally don't map very often (/at all :P) but I definantly understand the desire to keep your works your own little secret. I am sure given the option there will be a ton of mappers willing to donate thier creations "to science" (Ie, post source) but again this should be entirely optional. I do also understand the need to learn off more experianced mappers in regards to building mapping skill, but I can almost gaurntee you will learn what you are trying to better by asking what you are doing wrong, or looking at a tutorial (Yes, tutorials that come with source map files).
And for those saying that it is not a right for various reasons, let me correct you: 1) "The tools you used are free, therefore it is not your creation!" 1A: The tools are not free :/. you need a pre-order to get access to them. Therefore you hold a licence to develop natural selection 2 maps with that software. 1B: The tools are created by a coder. Does the developer of the tool own it? According to you, the developer of the IDE owns it. 1C: The major assets used in creation of a map are time and skill. This is not encluded in spark as at this build.
2) "This is like DRM!" 2A: I see no mapper trying to limit the amount of times you can use their map. 2B: You are given the use of the map for free, You are mearly not given access to alter/see the inner workings of the map.
3) "Open-source maps = learning how to map." 3A: This statement is ludicrous, I cannot look at a blueprint for a 747 and become an aeronautical engineer. I must learn through a serious of lessons (Be them taught or internet tutorials). I must learn the principles. Only then can I learn from the 747, and I'd be better off seeing it during flight anyway.
I do doubt that map stealing will be too great of an issue, but I understand people's desire to protect thier own creation and I think they should be able to do what they want with it!
Was a valid point comprox, was conveying what is being said by mappers, and it would address a lot of the current issues allowing this flame war to go on.
If you don't want comments like this, just lock the thread, it's been out of control and ridiculous for about 4 pages now.
P.S. "get off your high horse"? Come on, that's just childish.
<!--quoteo(post=1741199:date=Nov 28 2009, 05:48 AM:name=Xavia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xavia @ Nov 28 2009, 05:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1741199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really don't understand the opposition to this, I personally don't map very often (/at all :P)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because people are under the delusion that in order to have a strong mapping community, <b>every</b> map <b>must be open source</b>! Because apparently just having many, if not most, of the maps open is good enough for new mappers to have material to learn from. No, they <b>must have every map open source</b>! In communist NS2 Community, maps create you!
Basically, it's ridiculous and completely incomprehensible.
I personally don't see a need for any kind of protection, and any protection will probably be rendered mostly ineffective after a while anyways.
However, if someone wants some sort of encrypted/compiled/locked map, I say go for making it optional. Should be a relatively easy way to keep everyone happy.
Comments
Shakespeare was a plagiarist, that does mean he stole, that doesn't mean he did make it better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, but the idea of protection is to prevent others that would steal your work. I imagine it would be quite easy to share it with others.
Thats a perfect example of what can go wrong when people get there hands on maps with no protection.
I agree 100% on map-protection, the mappers have every right to stop people copying there hard work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.
Look, I have a map that claims to have the same title, but it is slightly different because I added some random hack only I know. Now watch it propagate!
The only custom map to really keep its integrity has been DotA because they host an official version at a website and all downloaders are kicked (and you run like hell from a server where yous tart downloading from).
If someone ripped from my map I would just name and shame. No one likes a ripoff merchant.
Of course the best solution would be optional, even if I disagree that it's neccessary, but whatever keeps people happy. At the end of the day this is the internet and the only way to protect anything of yours is to not put it on here in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While it would be lovely to exist in a world where such protection isn't necessary, human beings are naturally ######s, and love to take what isn't theirs to take.
As Max pointed out, it will likely be on optional flag that mappers can toggle for their public release versions. Having the option absolutely does not prevent you or anyone else releasing their full map content to be opened in Spark, but does give the "peace-of-mind" to those mappers who do want to keep development content private.
Copy protection is not evil. How it can be applied can certainly <b>be</b> evil, but is a necessary tool to have available. Don't blame the gun, blame the shooter, etc.
The Unreal mapping community has produced far more creative and better-looking maps than the HL1/2 community ever has and there have been no problems with anyone stealing. They are usually more grown up also.
If you create a great map and release it, anyone stealing parts of it will be noticed and their forum posts removed. You can prove it much easier by comparing them inside the editor to the exact grid point.
I thought maps were the content of the game designer? You can't sell a map, it's not your content.
I understand what every one is talking about but honestly I couldn't care less if some one tried to steal something of mine. It's flattering they think it's really worth that and well, they'll only get a backlash of abuse from the community.
As Max pointed out, it will likely be on optional flag that mappers can toggle for their public release versions. Having the option absolutely does not prevent you or anyone else releasing their full map content to be opened in Spark, but does give the "peace-of-mind" to those mappers who do want to keep development content private.
Copy protection is not evil. How it can be applied can certainly <b>be</b> evil, but is a necessary tool to have available. Don't blame the gun, blame the shooter, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I seem to live in that world, I honestly have never encountered someone copying my map or anyone elses. Sure it's just my experience, but it seems people get a bit scared of the invisible bogey men waiting to steal all of their precious work. Sure it happens but I can't see it being more than a small threat.
Like I said on page three, which I assume you didn't read, because you've quoted me from earlier in the thread. I'd be fine with an optional 'protection system', the thought of that didn't occur to me until it was suggested. But I disagree that it would stop someone copying your map if they really wanted to. People always find a way, so I find the concept kind of useless... but if it gives you peace of mind.
Amusing. You might want to reread your own quote, as it was in fact from page three containing your opinion on optional copyright. And you know what they say about assumptions...
I'm sorry, you're right. I should [i]really[i/] get some sleep.
I'm just saying, in the end it's pointless.
Which is basically what I'm talking about. It doesn't just apply to maps, it applies to everything. The people who created the props will have their own restrictions, just as the person who uniquely arranges them (and many other assets) into a working, playable map will have restrictions on how that is used. People have the right to control (to an extent) their own content, and if it includes other peoples' content then they need to comply with their wishes. A playable map is your content, but you can't sell it if you're using other people's content and they've said that you can't.
For myself, I'm not overly fussed whether or not my maps might be able to be copied. What I find bizarre is that anybody should choose to get outraged over what other people do with their own creations.
Thats a perfect example of what can go wrong when people get there hands on maps with no protection.
I agree 100% on map-protection, the mappers have every right to stop people copying there hard work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I used to make maps for TFT before I realized that I hate everyone on Battle.net. I created a map that was popular for about a month (Deer Hunters, it was similar to sheep tag but it's not soul-draining to be a shepherd/wolf) and within the third game of hosting the map for people to download it/try it, I had one dude go "Sirot stole this map from me! I have a much better version of this and blah blah blah" and he had a plant in place to agree with him ("ya, Sirot is hack" and son). Then he leaves the game in a grand exit, probably only to realize that I used mapLocker (or something like that) to copy protect my map and potentially avoided my one-month-only popular map being pinched by a jerk.
There is a place for open source stuff. Something like a server-side modification of a game (e.g a. Sourcemod Plug-in or potentially basic LUA modifications) needs transparency so the plugin author does not malicious stuff through the plugin to the server admin or players. I don't think maps is a place for it.
Seriously, if someone ripped my work, I'd love it as it means I did something good!
But hey, if you have a site hosting the file, threads talking about it in on official forums and what-not.
Stress Less.
People will shoot down the imitator for what they are and they'll loose a lot of cred in the community. Only a small minority will play the ripped version too.
Exactly. The only people who are opposing this must be:
1.) Someone who intends to take someones map, change a thing or two and claim it for their own.
2.) Someone whose never put any good amount of time into mapping.
3.) Someone who is just here to troll.
It's not about money, or eFame, or any of this derivative, played-down crap. It's about putting your time and effort into something unique and artistic... and then someone else claiming it for their own. If you want to be generous and share your map with others, that is fine, we've always had that kind of option. But it's just ridiculous to say people should be denied the option to keep their map creations personal.
Max has given us all the information we need. Stripping out the information that Spark Editor needs will probably be all the protection we need/want.
I will now request my thread be closed, but remembered by the community. I believe all constructive discussion has been exhausted.
Keeping maps open and editable would serve to create a stronger community of map makers, imo. Giving optional edit protections probably wouldn't hurt, though, as long a decent amount were open. It's a great way for new mappers to learn and have fun.
1.) Someone who intends to take someones map, change a thing or two and claim it for their own.
2.) Someone whose never put any good amount of time into mapping.
3.) Someone who is just here to troll.
It's not about money, or eFame, or any of this derivative, played-down crap. It's about putting your time and effort into something unique and artistic... and then someone else claiming it for their own. If you want to be generous and share your map with others, that is fine, we've always had that kind of option. But it's just ridiculous to say people should be denied the option to keep their map creations personal.
Max has given us all the information we need. Stripping out the information that Spark Editor needs will probably be all the protection we need/want.
I will now request my thread be closed, but remembered by the community. I believe all constructive discussion has been exhausted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I spent years on a map once, the final version only took a few months but I redid it like three or four times.
I still think it's silly to demand protection or be protective of your work.
Stripping out unneeded information from a file is logical to reduce the file size, but there should be a way to reacquire it in order to view the source of any map, so that you can look at it and pick it apart and see how it's done and use the techniques and perhaps some of the values/prefabs in your own.
It usually takes a while to get a good feel for how to make good lights and things so giving new mappers the ability to use existing ones makes sense, same goes for things like environmental effects and optimisation. You can't simply get this info from playing the level, being able to see the construction is useful.
Maps take months of hard work to make. If they can be freely opened in their editable form, then you WILL have a-holes who go into them, take out entire rooms or even the entire map, tweak some stupid little piece and act like it's their own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you don't <b>enjoy</b> creating a map, then don't make it ! We're more than happy to take your place. For some people, creation is its own reward. If you feel you have to be compensated for your work, go work on next Call of Duty.
I'm baffled by the arrogance and selfishness of people who want to have monopoly on their ideas. Since times immemorial, creation is based on inspiration (read: plagiarism !) and that is <b>good</b>. You won't tell me the map you create is 100% your idea, there's no such thing ! It's composed of building blocks called <i>ideas</i>, which come from movies like Aliens, buildings you've seen, photos availalble online, dreams and other stuff. It doesn't matter if it's new painting or quantum physics theory - you're always building on work of others. To try to make this process one-sided is very ######ish.
I would boycott an author who uses any form of copyright for his map.
I think authors should get attribution, but that's it. Unknown Worlds (or someone else) could create an official registry of maps to make sure credit is given where it's due. And
<!--QuoteBegin-"WhiteZero"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("WhiteZero")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is nothing like DRM for games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is just like DRM. It's about removing value for no reason. If people plagiarize my map and take best ideas from it, it's great. This means I'm a good map maker. Within the community, it's the equivalent of being quoted in a science paper.
Open source maps would be better for the community as a whole.
This is a suspicion of mine, but i believe the only reason NS1 had so many CUSTOM (i.e. not vanilla) maps is because it was a half life mod (duh), and also because of the mod svencoop which i think created a large number of custom map makers, which in turn resulted in many custom maps for many half life mods.
NS2 is a closed eco system because it will not be a FREE mod on a popular base-game like halflife 2. (excuse any similarity the developers make to have their modding tools function similarly to half life 2 tools :P)
For the sake of having more then a handful of custom maps (and avoiding the nightmare of every NS2 server being vanilla), then i think it's a requirement that all maps be opensource unlocked for the sake of the community.
I absolutely love creating maps. I did so for 4 years and then became a professional. I only feel the need to be compensated for my work that is sold. If I make an NS2 map and UWE doesn't buy it, I don't expect compensation whatsoever; just like all my other maps, the 'creation was its own reward'.
This, however, is almost irrelevant to the topic. For the small portion of the debate that should be money-focused, yes, it's wrong for people to rip off of mappers who are perhaps beta-testing their map in the hopes of getting it official, unless they <u>choose</u> to make it open-source.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would boycott an author who uses any form of copyright for his map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then boycott every retail game that doesn't allow custom content creation. You'll be limited to some of the best games out there (Valve and COD up to WaW come to mind), but you'll have to skip a whole ton of awesome games. It's a developer's choice, and by trying to take away map protection (which is standard in many engines, such as Hammer, even if it's not intentional), you're taking away that choice.
From my perspective, I'd be absolutely open to making any of my maps open-source... once they've reached an adequate level of community awareness. But definitely not while it's still in beta, and 10x especially so if I'm hoping the map becomes official. People can get their inspiration from it once it's in the credits. Other designers might want to have it open-source from the very beginning, but that should be their choice, not the only option.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is just like DRM. It's about removing value for no reason. If people plagiarize my map and take best ideas from it, it's great. This means I'm a good map maker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. This would only be 'removing value' if it's at the direct cost of the designer. If people actually 'take the best ideas from your map' but actually made it into their own, like I did with so many NS maps into Ns_Nexus, that's no problem. But you don't need the source to do that, you just need to simply look at the map. Whereas, if the map is forcibly open-sourced, this can become outright theft. A perfect example was given a few posts before this, and if you think this doesn't happen (though often in much smaller scales), you're simply ignorant.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Within the community, it's the equivalent of being quoted in a science paper.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Within the actual designer's community, it's the equivalent of being plagiarized in a science paper, not 'quoted'. Which leads to science students being suspended and expelled.
They would be, and I'm sure many designers are like me and, if I were to get a level made official, would have little issue with making it open-source. Some might make it open-source beforehand. But personally, I want my levels to be as locked as possible up until that point. But I still hold to the opinion that anything you can really steal from a map, you can steal from playing it in-game; it just takes a lot more work and you become a real level designer in the process.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a suspicion of mine, but i believe the only reason NS1 had so many CUSTOM (i.e. not vanilla) maps is because it was a half life mod (duh), and also because of the mod svencoop which i think created a large number of custom map makers, which in turn resulted in many custom maps for many half life mods.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is rather off-topic, but I also disagree with this. I played Svenco-op for about an hour and thought it was alright. But CS quickly became the biggest mod and then held that title even up until now. On FPSBanana, Svenco-op is listed as having 37 custom maps, whereas CS:1 has 12,000 (and CS:S has 19,000, dayum).
Plus, I started on CS, so hah :P
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 is a closed eco system because it will not be a FREE mod on a popular base-game like halflife 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disagree again. NS2 can't be a 'closed ecosystem', since it encompasses both the active NS1 community and those becoming active again because of NS2's progress.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the sake of having more then a handful of custom maps (and avoiding the nightmare of every NS2 server being vanilla), then i think it's a requirement that all maps be opensource unlocked for the sake of the community.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you not seen the Post Your Screenshots thread yet? Tell me how long it's been since the editor's been out. Feel free to count the number of unique people who have posted about using the editor too. And it's been 4 days.
And btw, servers being vanilla isn't a level design issue, it's a LUA scripter's issue. They're totally different fields.
To make it even more simple, if there is a encryption or anything similar, it will for obvious reasons not work, so i will create a easy to use application that decrypts whatever a map. so don't waste your time on something like that. (i really mean it, breaking stuff like that would be a nice little challenge).
And for those saying that it is not a right for various reasons, let me correct you:
1) "The tools you used are free, therefore it is not your creation!"
1A: The tools are not free :/. you need a pre-order to get access to them. Therefore you hold a licence to develop natural selection 2 maps with that software.
1B: The tools are created by a coder. Does the developer of the tool own it? According to you, the developer of the IDE owns it.
1C: The major assets used in creation of a map are time and skill. This is not encluded in spark as at this build.
2) "This is like DRM!"
2A: I see no mapper trying to limit the amount of times you can use their map.
2B: You are given the use of the map for free, You are mearly not given access to alter/see the inner workings of the map.
3) "Open-source maps = learning how to map."
3A: This statement is ludicrous, I cannot look at a blueprint for a 747 and become an aeronautical engineer. I must learn through a serious of lessons (Be them taught or internet tutorials). I must learn the principles. Only then can I learn from the 747, and I'd be better off seeing it during flight anyway.
I do doubt that map stealing will be too great of an issue, but I understand people's desire to protect thier own creation and I think they should be able to do what they want with it!
If you don't want comments like this, just lock the thread, it's been out of control and ridiculous for about 4 pages now.
P.S. "get off your high horse"? Come on, that's just childish.
Because people are under the delusion that in order to have a strong mapping community, <b>every</b> map <b>must be open source</b>! Because apparently just having many, if not most, of the maps open is good enough for new mappers to have material to learn from. No, they <b>must have every map open source</b>!
In communist NS2 Community, maps create you!
Basically, it's ridiculous and completely incomprehensible.
However, if someone wants some sort of encrypted/compiled/locked map, I say go for making it optional. Should be a relatively easy way to keep everyone happy.
Congratulations, you completely fail at understanding the issue.
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