If you make a good map and release it here it is highly unlikely anyone will be able to rip it off, because everyone who cares will know you made it.
Personally though I can't say I care, I map because it's fun and I want to play a certain level that does not yet exist, not for fame and fortune. Whether people know it was me or even whether they play the map is entirely secondary, as usually I get bored of it by the time I finish it.
I expect and to some extent encourage people to modify stuff I release to their own ends, considering that's exactly what I did in the first place. I took a game I liked and said 'hmm this needs something else' and made a map or a particle or a model for it, because I knew the game makers wouldn't do it for me.
Well, if someone wants to take a map or particle or model I make and change it so they like it more, fine. It saves me having to do it and it stops them whining about how I need to do it for them, and it also means I might get to play something better if they continue mapping or modelling or particle-ing.
<!--quoteo(post=1740880:date=Nov 27 2009, 12:09 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Nov 27 2009, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I decompiled many a map in NS1 to learn how certain things were done. Its how I learned how certain things worked, how to design certain architecture, and you know what? I'm betting a LOT of mappers used the .bsp decompiler to learn as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You seem to lack the ability to see shades of grey on this subject.
Map Copy Protection should/would be optional, as Max has eluded to. I'm sure that <b>plenty</b> of people will want to leave their map source open for others to play with and learn from.
Fact is, many, or not most, mappers want the ability to prevent people from taking what they spent many hours working on and claim it for their own. We all know that having a community know your work and back you up is the best, but there is absolutely no reason not to have some sort of prevention method put in.
Anyway, thanks for your input Max. I look forward to seeing what UWE and/or the community comes up with on this issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1740880:date=Nov 27 2009, 12:09 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Nov 27 2009, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alright drama-queen, when in the history of NS has this ever been a problem? The very few times its happened, the guy was found out and ridiculed and nobody ever took him seriously again. There were no quality released maps for NS1 that had decompiled content in it. Let's talk about strawmen arguments, shall we?
I decompiled many a map in NS1 to learn how certain things were done. Its how I learned how certain things worked, how to design certain architecture, and you know what? I'm betting a LOT of mappers used the .bsp decompiler to learn as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1 maps we're automatically open source. Almost no maps were released with their source files. And decompiling in HL1 was horrible, if you've actually done it then you know why. It doesn't show you how to build anything, though it might show you some entity work. Every face comes out as its own brush, which negates the goal of learning proper build technique. You would have much better results by just looking at it in-game. Unless you want to outright copy the dimensions.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How come modelers aren't asking for DRM, or texture artists? Because they apparently have some brains. If I download someone's skin, and think "this is nice but I don't like that logo there" and photoshop it out... NOBODY CARES. Why is that okay with you, but your dumb map isn't?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Troll troll troll.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And here we find the truth of your argument. This has nothing to do with 'stealing' architecture, and everything to do with <b>TEH SKILLZ</b>. It's like the mapper equivalent of calling anyone who doesn't like bunnyhopping a skilless noob scrub who should GTFO because YOU WERE IN CAL-P.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When something is a product, it is pretty much always the owner's right to how it is distributed or re-used. These NS2 maps are turning into products, as we want to sell them to UWE and be official level designers for them.
If HL2 didn't want to allow mods, then they could sue anyone who ripped out their assets and used them in levels. That's their choice. They decided to allow huge modability, as long as it results in free content. Do you think that before they released HL2, they'd release their assets and allow them to be used in other games in development?
Anyone who wants to release the source file of their map has always been free to do so. But given the circumstances of NS2's level design, it should absolutely be the decision of the designer.
But no matter what, if someone just looks at the map in-game, they can copy as much or as little of it as they want. Though I doubt if Tanith was remade by the original mapper and another guy came along with his own copy of Tanith, that he'd be given a moment of thought, since he ripped off the layout.
Sheesh are some of you insecure or what. What's next, patents for certain map types? Someone tell the guy who invented siege maps. I mean think of the IP!
<!--quoteo(post=1740904:date=Nov 27 2009, 12:38 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NurEinMensch @ Nov 27 2009, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740904"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sheesh are some of you insecure or what. What's next, patents for certain map types? Someone tell the guy who invented siege maps. I mean think of the IP!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1740906:date=Nov 27 2009, 12:43 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Nov 27 2009, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740906"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stop trolling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seriously. You guys need to keep your snide BS to yourselves and actually be constructive.
<!--quoteo(post=1740907:date=Nov 27 2009, 05:45 PM:name=WhiteZero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(WhiteZero @ Nov 27 2009, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously. You guys need to keep your snide BS to yourselves and actually be constructive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I kinda completely agree with him, I just phrased it less efficiently.
I am against map protection. As i think no one will take your map and put his own name on it. I would like to think us mappers are 18 < years old and wouldn't do such silly thing. And spotty teens would give up trying to change something in the Spark.
If you think it's trolling then don't bite. I'm serious, though. It's sad what you people are standing up for. And as you have admitted, it's all about money (and e-fame) in the end. But somehow I doubt that you are consistent - or do you not use any kind of open source stuff? Never used someone else's graphics? Never quoted someone without citation? Your demand for special treatment is ridiculous.
It does admittedly seem odd to complain about the right to close source your map when you made it using all the freely distributed textures and props and tools.
<!--quoteo(post=1740918:date=Nov 27 2009, 12:54 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NurEinMensch @ Nov 27 2009, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you think it's trolling then don't bite. I'm serious, though. It's sad what you people are standing up for. And as you have admitted, it's all about money (and e-fame) in the end. But somehow I doubt that you are consistent - or do you not use any kind of open source stuff? Never used someone else's graphics? Never quoted someone without citation? Your demand for special treatment is ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even open source software generally comes with licensing requirements that make you mention the original source if you redistribute it or anything like that. They do that for props, or "e-fame," just as much as they do it for any other reason. Quoting without citation is plagiarism and shouldn't be done.
This debate raged for a long time in the Killing Floor $10,000 mapping competition.
Unreal has no copy protection what so ever, but because pretty much everyone discussed maps and released maps on the Tripwire forums, no one would even dare copy another person's map. 100 maps later and all original (Not in theme though hah).
<!--quoteo(post=1740923:date=Nov 27 2009, 01:05 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NurEinMensch @ Nov 27 2009, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740923"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly! Open source, hence the name, requires you to make the source public!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, but maps have no licensing requirements, which leaves them unprotected. Copy protection would fix that.
So many ask for a Linux Version and now you guys want closed source maps ... open source is the best that can happen to this game and the community. That combined with a polished Editor and a kickass game is a good formular for success. Release your map under GPL all problems solved, except of course that you shared your knowledge and give people the opportunity to fix something for their needs and make something better.
Lets say the community bitc*es about some inbalance in the map but you like it that way. In an open source world this can be changed by somebody, but you could still play with others your version and you still would be mentioned and credited for the original work.
There will always be a**holes and griefers who dont follow the rules no matter what protection you put in.
Id love to see a big map in the editor. I mean for somebody who starts, this can be a real motivator ....
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
People have the right to a level of creative control over their own content. I'm astonished that any of you should get so riled up over what some people choose to do with their own creations. If any measures are implemented to allow people to prevent their maps from being edited, it will likely be optional. If you want to, do so, if you don't, then don't.
I also think this is kinda pathetic wanting copy protection on a map and agree with NurEinMensch.
I made a few models for NS/CS and even though .mdl files could be decompiled, you didn't see people trying to pass stuff off as their own in there community. If people start making custom props, textures, etc, if they had Copy Protection you would be ###### because you wouldn't be able to use custom assets in your maps.
I read through this all and I really am surprised that you guys have no consideration towards either side of this argument.
Some people like protecting their work because they feel that they worked long and hard on something, and don't want some random person stealing their work and passing it off to others as their own. This is plagiarism. Unless some of you never learned in school, plagiarism is unacceptable. However, taking someone's work, understanding how they designed something, and then making your own version, is extremely welcome in my mind.
Some mappers don't care if someone plagiarizes their work or not, some do. Respect everyone's own opinion on this matter since there is no "right/wrong."
reverse engineering is a great way to learn. walking around ingame looking at a map wont give you any idea how it was created. being able to open it up in the editor allows you to see the way other mappers work. everyone has a different style or technique of doing things and its always good to compare your style to someone elses. if someone optimizes their map really well, it allows you to see and pick up these good techniques. sure you can talk to the mapping community about how to do things, but for me, i find it easier to go into a map and see how somethign is done.
if you've put alot of tiem and effort into your map, people will realise when something is stolen. because ns maps are so unique to one another, it is quite easy to identify when the same hallway is in 2 different maps.
<!--quoteo(post=1740914:date=Nov 27 2009, 12:51 PM:name=Kerotan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kerotan @ Nov 27 2009, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did no one play WC3+TFT?
Thats a perfect example of what can go wrong when people get there hands on maps with no protection.
I agree 100% on map-protection, the mappers have every right to stop people copying there hard work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1740965:date=Nov 27 2009, 02:47 PM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Loey @ Nov 27 2009, 02:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->walking around ingame looking at a map wont give you any idea how it was created. being able to open it up in the editor allows you to see the way other mappers work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. There isn't much you'll see in the editor that can't be seen in-game, except entity work.
It's also a difference in learning how to build versus what to build. To learn HOW to build, you need to watch and read tutorials and play with it, not just tinker with an open-source finished map; that won't teach you a single thing about how to build (aside from entities, again). But to learn WHAT to build, a great way is to be inspired by others work, and that's done best in-game, since that's also where the end result is focused.
Well I wont be releasing any maps to the public yet, seems some people want their mitts on mah geometry. Seriously if mappers wanted other people to rip off their own work, or to provide a demonstration of how its done, they <b>would</b> post an unprotected version.
I cant really see how people are opposing the idea to copy protection at all, its always been like this.
<!--quoteo(post=1740827:date=Nov 27 2009, 09:12 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NurEinMensch @ Nov 27 2009, 09:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740827"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're using an editor made by someone else, that renders in an engine made by someone else, showing the textures and props made by someone else, that you got off the Internet that is, you will have guessed it by now, made by someone else - and you worry about someone "ripping off" some of your geometry?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're using a canvas invented made and designed by someone else, your using paints whose colors are designed/mixed/made by other people, you're using paintbrushes made and designed by someone else, why should any sort of painting you make be your own?
<!--quoteo(post=1740983:date=Nov 27 2009, 03:44 PM:name=CoolCookieCooks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CoolCookieCooks @ Nov 27 2009, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well I wont be releasing any maps to the public yet, seems some people want their mitts on mah geometry. Seriously if mappers wanted other people to rip off their own work, or to provide a demonstration of how its done, they <b>would</b> post an unprotected version.
I cant really see how people are opposing the idea to copy protection at all, its always been like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's pretty simple really. The people opposed to copy protection have never created something before, and have no real scope of what copy protection truly means.
<!--quoteo(post=1740986:date=Nov 27 2009, 03:51 PM:name=Daxx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Daxx @ Nov 27 2009, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's pretty simple really. The people opposed to copy protection have never created something before, and have no real scope of what copy protection truly means.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1740984:date=Nov 27 2009, 09:45 PM:name=Kalabalana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kalabalana @ Nov 27 2009, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're using a canvas invented made and designed by someone else, your using paints whose colors are designed/mixed/made by other people, you're using paintbrushes made and designed by someone else, why should any sort of painting you make be your own?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1740986:date=Nov 27 2009, 08:51 PM:name=Daxx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Daxx @ Nov 27 2009, 08:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's pretty simple really. The people opposed to copy protection have never created something before, and have no real scope of what copy protection truly means.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or maybe we just don't want to give people the hassle of going the long way around to get into a map we create. If someone wants to get into a map, they'll get into a map. It's easy enough to put your own signature in a map, any kind of proof that you're the original creator.
If someone ripped from my map I would just name and shame. No one likes a ripoff merchant.
Of course the best solution would be optional, even if I disagree that it's neccessary, but whatever keeps people happy. At the end of the day this is the internet and the only way to protect anything of yours is to not put it on here in the first place.
In terms of protection of an idea, I think that is ok, provided you intend to make a profit from the idea. None of us map designers here intend to, and thus there is no reason to have a form of copy protection on maps. Even still, I think we can all learn more from each other by sharing map files easily in order to show how and why we did certain things.
Shakespeare was a plagiarist, that does mean he stole, that doesn't mean he did make it better.
Comments
Personally though I can't say I care, I map because it's fun and I want to play a certain level that does not yet exist, not for fame and fortune. Whether people know it was me or even whether they play the map is entirely secondary, as usually I get bored of it by the time I finish it.
I expect and to some extent encourage people to modify stuff I release to their own ends, considering that's exactly what I did in the first place. I took a game I liked and said 'hmm this needs something else' and made a map or a particle or a model for it, because I knew the game makers wouldn't do it for me.
Well, if someone wants to take a map or particle or model I make and change it so they like it more, fine. It saves me having to do it and it stops them whining about how I need to do it for them, and it also means I might get to play something better if they continue mapping or modelling or particle-ing.
You seem to lack the ability to see shades of grey on this subject.
Map Copy Protection should/would be optional, as Max has eluded to. I'm sure that <b>plenty</b> of people will want to leave their map source open for others to play with and learn from.
Fact is, many, or not most, mappers want the ability to prevent people from taking what they spent many hours working on and claim it for their own. We all know that having a community know your work and back you up is the best, but there is absolutely no reason not to have some sort of prevention method put in.
Anyway, thanks for your input Max. I look forward to seeing what UWE and/or the community comes up with on this issue.
I decompiled many a map in NS1 to learn how certain things were done. Its how I learned how certain things worked, how to design certain architecture, and you know what? I'm betting a LOT of mappers used the .bsp decompiler to learn as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS1 maps we're automatically open source. Almost no maps were released with their source files. And decompiling in HL1 was horrible, if you've actually done it then you know why. It doesn't show you how to build anything, though it might show you some entity work. Every face comes out as its own brush, which negates the goal of learning proper build technique. You would have much better results by just looking at it in-game. Unless you want to outright copy the dimensions.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How come modelers aren't asking for DRM, or texture artists? Because they apparently have some brains. If I download someone's skin, and think "this is nice but I don't like that logo there" and photoshop it out... NOBODY CARES. Why is that okay with you, but your dumb map isn't?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Troll troll troll.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And here we find the truth of your argument. This has nothing to do with 'stealing' architecture, and everything to do with <b>TEH SKILLZ</b>. It's like the mapper equivalent of calling anyone who doesn't like bunnyhopping a skilless noob scrub who should GTFO because YOU WERE IN CAL-P.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When something is a product, it is pretty much always the owner's right to how it is distributed or re-used. These NS2 maps are turning into products, as we want to sell them to UWE and be official level designers for them.
If HL2 didn't want to allow mods, then they could sue anyone who ripped out their assets and used them in levels. That's their choice. They decided to allow huge modability, as long as it results in free content. Do you think that before they released HL2, they'd release their assets and allow them to be used in other games in development?
Anyone who wants to release the source file of their map has always been free to do so. But given the circumstances of NS2's level design, it should absolutely be the decision of the designer.
But no matter what, if someone just looks at the map in-game, they can copy as much or as little of it as they want. Though I doubt if Tanith was remade by the original mapper and another guy came along with his own copy of Tanith, that he'd be given a moment of thought, since he ripped off the layout.
Stop trolling.
Seriously. You guys need to keep your snide BS to yourselves and actually be constructive.
Actually I kinda completely agree with him, I just phrased it less efficiently.
Thats a perfect example of what can go wrong when people get there hands on maps with no protection.
I agree 100% on map-protection, the mappers have every right to stop people copying there hard work.
And spotty teens would give up trying to change something in the Spark.
Even open source software generally comes with licensing requirements that make you mention the original source if you redistribute it or anything like that. They do that for props, or "e-fame," just as much as they do it for any other reason. Quoting without citation is plagiarism and shouldn't be done.
Unreal has no copy protection what so ever, but because pretty much everyone discussed maps and released maps on the Tripwire forums, no one would even dare copy another person's map. 100 maps later and all original (Not in theme though hah).
Okay, but maps have no licensing requirements, which leaves them unprotected. Copy protection would fix that.
Lets say the community bitc*es about some inbalance in the map but you like it that way. In an open source world this can be changed by somebody, but you could still play with others your version and you still would be mentioned and credited for the original work.
There will always be a**holes and griefers who dont follow the rules no matter what protection you put in.
Id love to see a big map in the editor. I mean for somebody who starts, this can be a real motivator ....
1up for open formats!
Keep it civil, or this thread will be locked.
I made a few models for NS/CS and even though .mdl files could be decompiled, you didn't see people trying to pass stuff off as their own in there community.
If people start making custom props, textures, etc, if they had Copy Protection you would be ###### because you wouldn't be able to use custom assets in your maps.
Some people like protecting their work because they feel that they worked long and hard on something, and don't want some random person stealing their work and passing it off to others as their own. This is plagiarism. Unless some of you never learned in school, plagiarism is unacceptable. However, taking someone's work, understanding how they designed something, and then making your own version, is extremely welcome in my mind.
Some mappers don't care if someone plagiarizes their work or not, some do. Respect everyone's own opinion on this matter since there is no "right/wrong."
if you've put alot of tiem and effort into your map, people will realise when something is stolen. because ns maps are so unique to one another, it is quite easy to identify when the same hallway is in 2 different maps.
Thats a perfect example of what can go wrong when people get there hands on maps with no protection.
I agree 100% on map-protection, the mappers have every right to stop people copying there hard work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What exactly happened with WC3 and TFT?
Not really. There isn't much you'll see in the editor that can't be seen in-game, except entity work.
It's also a difference in learning how to build versus what to build. To learn HOW to build, you need to watch and read tutorials and play with it, not just tinker with an open-source finished map; that won't teach you a single thing about how to build (aside from entities, again). But to learn WHAT to build, a great way is to be inspired by others work, and that's done best in-game, since that's also where the end result is focused.
I cant really see how people are opposing the idea to copy protection at all, its always been like this.
You're using a canvas invented made and designed by someone else, your using paints whose colors are designed/mixed/made by other people, you're using paintbrushes made and designed by someone else, why should any sort of painting you make be your own?
I cant really see how people are opposing the idea to copy protection at all, its always been like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's pretty simple really. The people opposed to copy protection have never created something before, and have no real scope of what copy protection truly means.
+1
Did we pay for the canvas,paints,paintbrushed ?
Or maybe we just don't want to give people the hassle of going the long way around to get into a map we create. If someone wants to get into a map, they'll get into a map. It's easy enough to put your own signature in a map, any kind of proof that you're the original creator.
If someone ripped from my map I would just name and shame. No one likes a ripoff merchant.
Of course the best solution would be optional, even if I disagree that it's neccessary, but whatever keeps people happy. At the end of the day this is the internet and the only way to protect anything of yours is to not put it on here in the first place.
Lets say we didn't, they were all given to us, so we could paint. So now. Is my Mona Lisa owned by whoever gave me those items aux gratis?
Shakespeare was a plagiarist, that does mean he stole, that doesn't mean he did make it better.